Author Topic: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)  (Read 17796 times)

Solitaire

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Re: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2015, 08:43:00 AM »
This may be a silly question but here goes;

Is this something your working on and isn't as yet enabled in PC, or is it active and where can I get hold of the instructions to activate?


FloatingFatMan

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Re: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2015, 05:15:04 PM »
This may be a silly question but here goes;

Is this something your working on and isn't as yet enabled in PC, or is it active and where can I get hold of the instructions to activate?

It's not part of PC at all.. When he finishes it, it'll just be a program he runs that connects to PC just like any person would.

Arcana

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Re: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2015, 07:39:16 PM »
It's not part of PC at all.. When he finishes it, it'll just be a program he runs that connects to PC just like any person would.

To amplify a bit, one of the limitations of Paragon Chat is that it doesn't have a central server like the game did in the sense of doing things everyone could see.  The only server we have is basically a communications hub that lets all Paragon Chat users (that log into it) tell each other what they are doing, so I see what you're doing and vice versa.  But that means the only things you can see are what you do with your character, and what any other player does with their character.  At the moment, no other entities exist, and nothing else happens.

Bots provide a way for programmers to potentially innovate some features within Paragon Chat, by creating computer controlled "players" that do things other players could see.  For example, how do you make badges work?  Well, imagine you're a player, and you could log in to Paragon Chat and watch the positions of all the other players.  You could, when a player stood next to a badge location, send them a chat message saying they found that badge.  All you'd need to do is memorize all the badge locations and watch all the players movements twenty four hours a day and send the right chat messages at the right times.  Of course, a person can't do that in practice, but they could do that in theory.  And because they can do it in theory, you can write a program to do it for you.  You know have an automated servant logged into Paragon Chat doing that for you, and you have a sort-of badge system working, even though there's still no server that can award badges to anyone.

I believe this all started when Paragon Chat was first announced and/or released, and the subject of the ski slopes came up.  The question was whether it was possible to make the race course work, and the answer was that that was complicated for a number of reasons.  I suggested that it should be possible to make a bot that would run the course instead of Paragon Chat itself: you just needed software to log into Paragon Chat, monitor the locations of players, track when they crossed the starting and finishing lines, and time them.  A player could, in theory, do that, so a bot could automate the process even better.  Obviously, badges could also be done this way.  I'm guessing Dyne may have been inspired by those discussions, or may have come up with the idea independently and found the "Technical side discussion" thread where much of this kind of discussion took/takes place.

The point is that Paragon Chat is a program, but its also a platform.  And players have been thinking up ways to use and extend the platform in different ways.  Bots are one way.  Another way that players have investigated is to use Paragon Chat in conjunction with paper-and-pencil role playing games.  One of the very first "extensions" to Paragon Chat that Codewalker added was a way to roll dice.  Rolling dice allows PnP gamers to better use Paragon Chat as an interactive role playing game platform.  Codewalker is really the only person adding features directly to Paragon Chat - its his software, and he has sole control over it.  Others are working *with* it, trying to get it to do interesting things by adding their own work alongside it.  Database editors that let you modify your costume in ways the City of Heroes tailor won't ordinarily allow.  Bots that track badges.  Configuration changes that let you synchronize your Paragon Chat characters to multiple computers.  Special keybinds and popmenus to conveniently access features that otherwise you can only do with typed commands.  These are all ways to improve the Paragon Chat experience without actually modifying Paragon Chat itself.  Only Codewalker can really do that.

Solitaire

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Re: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2015, 08:10:13 PM »
Thanks for the replies and info FFM & Arcana, look forward to this project being finished will be good to go badge hunting again  ;)

Dyne

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Re: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2015, 08:50:35 PM »
Managed to catch con crud, so I'm slow in replying and haven't made any coding progress at all, but...

I believe this all started when Paragon Chat was first announced and/or released, and the subject of the ski slopes came up.  The question was whether it was possible to make the race course work, and the answer was that that was complicated for a number of reasons.  I suggested that it should be possible to make a bot that would run the course instead of Paragon Chat itself: you just needed software to log into Paragon Chat, monitor the locations of players, track when they crossed the starting and finishing lines, and time them.  A player could, in theory, do that, so a bot could automate the process even better.  Obviously, badges could also be done this way.  I'm guessing Dyne may have been inspired by those discussions, or may have come up with the idea independently and found the "Technical side discussion" thread where much of this kind of discussion took/takes place.

Mainly, those threads showed me that it was feasible (for me) to write a bot.  This came down to the choice of protocol, the choice of language, and the large amounts of useful info that you and Codewalker posted well before I even found out about Paragon Chat.

Being able to look at (and understand) working examples is always helpful.  Back in the nineties, a few of us tinkered around with writing IRC chat bots for the Amiga channel I hung around on, and though XMPP is rather more complex than IRC, I could use that knowledge to work up to it.  And since you implemented Arcanabot in Python -- which is not only a language I already knew but the one I was most comfortable in -- that removed a large barrier to entry.  Implementing in C (or, god forbid, Perl) may very well have caused me to shrug and go back to my UE4 projects.

I didn't start out using the idea, but something like a badgebot was obvious after Codewalker's protocol post.  Once you realize that Paragon Chat sends everyone's position to everyone else via u stanzas and that you can react to those stanzas, it's a pretty short step to get to "if a bot knows all of the badge/plaque locations, it can compare those to u stanzas and store who gets within a certain distance".

My ultimate goal with the original Dynebot was (and is) to enable narrative missions.  However, the logic for badge tracking is a great deal less complex to design, write, and test than a full-fledged mission script engine or implementing a pen-and-paper game system.  I needed a bot with a real purpose in order to retain motivation, but I also needed a simpler platform with which to work out structural issues like multi-zone (really multi-channel) presence, and multithreaded database access.  So, once I got enough of a handle on bot writing to make it appear in the world, I spun it off into the Badgebot.
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Re: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2015, 01:27:37 PM »
** In all honestly, I did go and track them all down in the Echo yesterday because I needed their old coordinates, as the various wikis and such lacked that info.  Ugh.  To make matters worse, I managed to locate an old Gamefaqs that gave the coordinates ...  after I'd found them myself.

FYI, using the "history" function of the badge articles will give you the old location. For example, Undammed used to be at 75, -900, 1685.

If there are other badges that moved, I'm sure Paragon Wiki still has the old location available in a similar way.
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Dyne

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Re: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2015, 05:00:28 AM »
FYI, using the "history" function of the badge articles will give you the old location. For example, Undammed used to be at 75, -900, 1685.

Ah.  Since the old coordinates remained relevant information (Echo: Faultline still being in the game Nope) and I could think of no logical reason to remove them, it seemed most likely that they were never actually there to begin with.  So I didn't think to check for that.

Edit: the above was just my terrible memory; see below
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 01:43:05 AM by Dyne »
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Re: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2015, 01:15:19 PM »
Ah.  Since the old coordinates remained relevant information (Echo: Faultline still being in the game) and I could think of no logical reason to remove them, it seemed most likely that they were never actually there to begin with.  So I didn't think to check for that.

Was Faultline still in the game as an Echo? The wiki indicates only Dark Astoria and Galaxy City were, and I don't remember the facts.

Sorry for pulling this thread on a bit of a tangent.
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

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Codewalker

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Re: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2015, 04:28:35 PM »
No, there was no Echo of Faultline in the game. The old faultline map did still exist, but could only be reached by a GM moving you or through exploits. It was still called simply 'Faultline' (with the quotes).

Paragon Chat added it to the map list, along with a rename to distinguish it from the current Faultline. You'll notice that it's one of the few maps in the stock zone.cfg file that includes a name override.

Dyne

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Re: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2015, 01:29:25 AM »
Hmm, my mistake.  I must be misremembering.  I think that the last time I regularly went to Faultline was three or four years before the game shut down.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 01:39:57 AM by Dyne »
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Dyne

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Re: Badgebot development (A bit of a teaser, to whet your appetite...)
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2015, 11:29:02 PM »
That is not dead
which can eternal lie
and with strange aeons
even death may die.


Just a heads up...  I still exist, I am just very busy with other things at the moment.  I'll hopefully have more time after Halloween.
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