Author Topic: "Abandoned Games" exemption?  (Read 27848 times)

Nyghtshade

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"Abandoned Games" exemption?
« on: October 28, 2015, 02:59:27 PM »
Single player games with dead DRM servers ruled DMCA exempt"

http://www.kitguru.net/channel/generaltech/matthew-wilson/single-player-games-with-dead-drm-servers-ruled-dmca-exempt/

Although this article deals with "single player" games, could this eventually apply to CoH as well, should negotiations hit an immutable roadblock?

steveharp

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2015, 08:20:24 PM »
Was just reading this article http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/10/u-s-govt-grants-limited-right-to-revive-games-behind-abandoned-servers/ and instantly thought of checking here, similar sort of thing.
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Surelle

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2015, 10:01:23 PM »
Although the first article has previously been brought up on these forums several times, it's great to know the law is still progressing forward with the second article's newer addition.   :)

Neither of these encompasses the double-whammy of massively multiplayer servers and IPs that are owned by their former publishers and/or developers (and in fact the second article implies that massively multiplayer games are still not covered by this new addition), but it's  still a step in the right direction.

 :)

Beltor

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2015, 06:13:19 PM »
Also since negotiations have been going on over COX, it may not be considered abandoned. Just non functional

Brigadine

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2015, 01:05:39 AM »
Although the first article has previously been brought up on these forums several times, it's great to know the law is still progressing forward with the second article's newer addition.   :)

Neither of these encompasses the double-whammy of massively multiplayer servers and IPs that are owned by their former publishers and/or developers (and in fact the second article implies that massively multiplayer games are still not covered by this new addition), but it's  still a step in the right direction.

 :)
I think MMOs will eventually find their way into this group.

Brigadine

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2015, 01:06:32 AM »
Also since negotiations have been going on over COX, it may not be considered abandoned. Just non functional
they are under an NDA, that means there are no negotiations ;)

Mageman

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2015, 09:50:36 PM »
From what I read, someone COULD create a program so you could play CoX in single-player mode and MAYBE multi-player LAN, but not internet multi-player. I wonder if someone has the capability to create the Single-player mode or LAN mode. I'd be willing to "donate" for it, if needed!

That's one thing I like about Neverwinter Nights (Diamond Edition) multi-player version. Whenever you want to start a multi-player game, you have to "log into" the defunct server. When that fails, it allows you to play multi-player in LAN mode. This, however, was built into the game so when the servers shut down, you could still play multi-player games.
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Azrael

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2015, 01:21:58 PM »
And that's what all MMOs should have, especially cox so that at least you can enjoy the game on some level after paying a fortune in subs for it.

Azrael.

Mageman

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2015, 11:59:44 PM »
I'm assuming that Paragon Studios had some form of local (either a LAN server or single-player mode) so they could do some internal testing before they added stuff to the actual TEST server. I wonder if someone has that on a disk somewhere... especially someone who did some tele-commuting. Now if that software should "somehow" show up and be down-loadable from the internet, you'd have a bunch of happy CoX players!
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Azrael

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2015, 11:10:44 PM »
Interesting idea.  Did Paragon have a Lan version for testing..?  Arcana..?  Codewalker..?

Could a reverse engineered single or Lan version be covered under the new exemption?

Just a shame mmo developers don't include a single or LAN version as standard practice for the inevitable closure of servers so players can still play the game instead of sitting on dead ip.

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Arcana

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2015, 07:42:39 PM »
Interesting idea.  Did Paragon have a Lan version for testing..?  Arcana..?  Codewalker..?

Configured properly and with possession of the server files you could run City on a single computer.

Quote
Could a reverse engineered single or Lan version be covered under the new exemption?

Nope.  Note the italicized text above.  It would be copyright infringement to attempt to reverse engineer those.  The LoC DMCA exception only exempts someone from criminal prosecution for violating the reverse engineering prohibitions within the DMCA.  It does not grant an exemption for copyright violation.  The presumption is that for single player games whose only problem is authentication servers that the vendor shut down, the player already possesses everything they need to play the game, legally acquired.  They only lack, in effect, a technological "permission to do so" granted by the auth servers.  The only thing the DMCA exemption would allow for City is, in effect, something like Icon.


Mageman

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2015, 05:10:59 PM »
Configured properly and with possession of the server files you could run City on a single computer.

Nope.  Note the italicized text above.  It would be copyright infringement to attempt to reverse engineer those.  The LoC DMCA exception only exempts someone from criminal prosecution for violating the reverse engineering prohibitions within the DMCA.  It does not grant an exemption for copyright violation.  The presumption is that for single player games whose only problem is authentication servers that the vendor shut down, the player already possesses everything they need to play the game, legally acquired.  They only lack, in effect, a technological "permission to do so" granted by the auth servers.  The only thing the DMCA exemption would allow for City is, in effect, something like Icon.
Actually, a lot of the computer industry is built upon "reverse engineering". Now, you can't take their source code and use that as a foundation for creating your code. However, if you create something that does something similar, you are perfectly legal. Take Word Perfect - for a long time, it was the best word processing software out there. Microsoft wants a piece of that action. So they created Word. By under-cutting the price of Word Perfect, and by continuing to develop and improve their software, it is now the standard word processing software. And they got away with it since their programmers didn't have access to the source code of Word Perfect. So I think that someone COULD develop a CoX server software without infringing upon NC Soft's rights as long as they are not using NC Soft's software to do it. And the "Abandoned Games" exemption would allow us to bypass NC Soft's loader/validation program and access a LAN server instead.
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Azrael

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2015, 07:09:03 PM »
Actually, a lot of the computer industry is built upon "reverse engineering". Now, you can't take their source code and use that as a foundation for creating your code. However, if you create something that does something similar, you are perfectly legal. Take Word Perfect - for a long time, it was the best word processing software out there. Microsoft wants a piece of that action. So they created Word. By under-cutting the price of Word Perfect, and by continuing to develop and improve their software, it is now the standard word processing software. And they got away with it since their programmers didn't have access to the source code of Word Perfect. So I think that someone COULD develop a CoX server software without infringing upon NC Soft's rights as long as they are not using NC Soft's software to do it. And the "Abandoned Games" exemption would allow us to bypass NC Soft's loader/validation program and access a LAN server instead.

;)

Azrael.

Mageman

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2015, 01:00:21 AM »
My Reality:
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#2 I miss CoX!
#3 Refer to rule #1!
#4 I seem to have an itch!

Vee

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2015, 01:54:04 AM »
I took it to mean Azrael is mere days away from uploading a fully functional LAN version of CoX.

Codewalker

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2015, 04:33:39 AM »
Actually, a lot of the computer industry is built upon "reverse engineering".

And the very same people who built it turned right around and started working hard to make sure nobody else could do the same thing to them, by way of things like EULAs prohibiting it and attempt to push through laws like UCITA. Depending on which state you live in, the very act of reverse engineering might run afoul of your state's laws.

Even at the federal level there are things like the DMCA's anti-circumvention provision, and some much scarier stuff that they're trying to sneak in the back door via international trade treaties.

If you're interested in copyright law and the perverse ways it's often abused to prevent competition, fair use, and reverse engineering, you should hit up eff.org to keep tabs on the current state of the war against intellectual freedom and what initiatives are currently going on.

And definitely read the actual text of the library of congress' report on the abandoned games exception.

http://copyright.gov/1201/2015/fedreg-publicinspectionFR.pdf

Starts at the bottom of page 54, it's barely over a page long and is quite easy to digest; no understanding of legalese required. Read the actual text and it will be clear that it's written in a way to specifically exclude exactly the kinds of fanciful scenarios that are being dreamed up in this thread.

Also, read the summary on page 1 and keep in mind the context of the exemption -- it only applies to the anti-circumvention clause about bypassing technical protection measures. It doesn't give free license to make copies.

Azrael

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2015, 04:18:59 PM »
Thanks for link to the link to the exemptions source material, Codewalker.

Straightforward reading.

So, the reason MMOs aren't exempted are due to problems of 'trafficking?'  Not sure what that means.  But pressure should be piled on mmo makers to allow LAN or single player mode exemptions or hand over the server related code so it can be reverse engineered by the community concerned...in order to at least play the game at a local level.

This hostage to fortune as we march towards a digital future...I'm hostile to corporate overeach on ip.  I think the Coh closure is a breach of fair use.  NC Soft made their miions and now the server sits on a dusty shelf somewhere and our local client sit there under utilised bar Paragon Chat.

Azrael.

Azrael

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2015, 04:22:19 PM »
Maybe us game players should be deciding what's fair rather than corporations or politicians.

Azrael.

Mageman

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2015, 10:23:35 PM »
Maybe us game players should be deciding what's fair rather than corporations or politicians.
I think that there should be a statute of limitations on how long the servers can be down before they can be reverse-engineered. If they choose to "sit on their IP" then they will realize that if they sit too long that they lose their rights to block it. Right now, NC Soft has been sitting on the IP for 3 years. It's time to either sell it or lose it.

I still think that the rights to develop the game farther, and perform updates to it belong to NC Soft. I subscribed for years, bought many upgrades. I should have some rights to play a game that I've paid them over $1,000.00 over the years.
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Arcana

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2015, 01:18:19 AM »
Actually, a lot of the computer industry is built upon "reverse engineering". Now, you can't take their source code and use that as a foundation for creating your code. However, if you create something that does something similar, you are perfectly legal. Take Word Perfect - for a long time, it was the best word processing software out there. Microsoft wants a piece of that action. So they created Word. By under-cutting the price of Word Perfect, and by continuing to develop and improve their software, it is now the standard word processing software. And they got away with it since their programmers didn't have access to the source code of Word Perfect. So I think that someone COULD develop a CoX server software without infringing upon NC Soft's rights as long as they are not using NC Soft's software to do it. And the "Abandoned Games" exemption would allow us to bypass NC Soft's loader/validation program and access a LAN server instead.

Hypothetically speaking, you could attempt to reverse engineer the technical software engine of a server, but to completely reverse engineer the City of Heroes servers into something playable would also require reverse engineering the content of the server side game files.  You'd be 100% dead-bang guilty of copyright violation if you attempted to do that: there's no grey area there.

The problem is that the way the game functions isn't just in the code, its mostly in the data.  You can make an argument that a clean-room reverse engineered mapserver was legal.  You might still lose if that mapserver contained potentially copyright-able ideas, like the precise way gravity works, say, or had special handling for jump jets, hypothetically speaking of course.  But you'd definitely lose if you attempt to argue that recreating critter AI profiles or mission scripts was "reverse engineering technology."  You'd be recreating content protected by copyright.  Just mentioning the Crey Corporation in any file you attempt to write for a hypothetical server would be a violation of copyright content.  How do you make a functioning server that somehow has to remain in sync with the content of the client without actually mentioning that content?  That seems to be a herculean borderline impossible task.

Mageman

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2015, 12:17:30 AM »
Actually, I think most of the text was on your local computer. So all you would do is recreate the AI, and point to the text and let the local software remain on your computer - which you own.
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Golden Aurora

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2015, 12:48:41 AM »
I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that. Reading through the Paragon Chat forums, I've read multiple times from Codewalker and Arcana that a lot of the text resources were serverside, particularly for npcs and missions.

That's the reason the hack CodeWalker had to do to get Ascendent in Steel Canyon was notable and not trivial.

Take a glance at http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=7866.0
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 12:54:13 AM by Golden Aurora »

Arcana

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2015, 01:48:16 AM »
Actually, I think most of the text was on your local computer. So all you would do is recreate the AI, and point to the text and let the local software remain on your computer - which you own.

Some of the displayed text was stored locally.  Some isn't.  I believe mission dialog boxes were stored locally (not sure).  NPC channel dialog was not stored locally**.  However, things like mission scripts were stored server-side.  Basically, the pieces exist on the client, but the instructions for what to do with them were primarily server-side.

There are also very complicated legal questions about whether having the data in the client is even helpful.  For example, all the data that you'd need to recreate, say, a Freak Tank exists on the client.  The models, the visual textures, the entire set of definitions for what powers the Freak has and even how they work are on the client.  But they do you no good on the client, because the client has no code that allows it to do anything with that data - its there because of a quirk of implementation.  Its the server that needs to know what powers a Freak tank has.  If you look it up on the client, and copy that data into your server implementation to allow the server to spawn and manipulate a Freak NPC, or even write your server to suck that data out of a game client, you're copying content without permission.  That's almost certainly a copyright violation.

Maybe, just maybe, it would be legal to reverse engineer a game server that ran locally on your PC itself, that read the appropriate files and used them in a "server" implementation that your own game client could use.  However, even after reverse engineering mapserver technology and NPC AI and spawn logic and combat mechanics and everything else you'd need to make the gameclient something other than Icon or Paragon Chat, you'd still be missing the information necessary to do things like run game content.  Basically, you might be able to get a single player Architect working.


** At one point it was, but I believe it was removed.  As part of the development process, the devs could set switches that determined what of the server data also showed up in the client.  Sometimes, things got pushed that shouldn't have, and were later removed.  Sometimes things were not pushed because it was not necessary, and then later were pushed when it became necessary.  For example, originally powers data was in the client, but the attribmods associated with powers were not (attribmods are basically the power's effects).  There were technical reasons for including the core power data but the attribmods were not considered necessary.  They became necessary in Issue 11, when the Real Numbers system required access to that data from within the client.  So game clients from Issue 10 and earlier have no power effect data in their files, and game clients from Issue 11 and later do.

Golden Aurora

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2015, 02:01:20 AM »
It actually doesn't even seem that hard to do when I think about it, as far as referencing in game resources.
Everything is an array or a memory location when you break it down. Do you really need to know the name of the Freakshow boss 'Dreck'? Npcs[20].Object[2732] works just as well.
Abstract the resources into a form that can be handled by servers without copyright infringement.
All you'd need is a clientside lookup, really.

Of course that sounds alot easier than it actually would be, but I'm confident there has to be a good solution to this sort of thing.

Another example is if you needed to compare if something is "Dreck" or not, sha-1: 2fddd9503ac5bc4514dcd9529eea262515aee8e7 works too!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 02:08:14 AM by Golden Aurora »

Arcana

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2015, 03:10:49 AM »
It actually doesn't even seem that hard to do when I think about it, as far as referencing in game resources.

Not hard.  Tedious, not hard.

Quote
Everything is an array or a memory location when you break it down.

For the most part, its actually a structured file in a virtual file system.

Quote
Another example is if you needed to compare if something is "Dreck" or not, sha-1: 2fddd9503ac5bc4514dcd9529eea262515aee8e7 works too!

Not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean what I think you mean this is a thing that never has to happen within the technology of a game engine.  Everything that exists within the game (when it was running) was something the mapservers themselves spawned into the space: its impossible for the game engine to not know what a thing is.  The mapserver spawns "Dreck" if its told to spawn Dreck, either by interactive command or because of a mission script that tells it to do so.  There's no other reason why the game engine would need to "find" Dreck within the game content files.  If it needed to know anything about Dreck, its because it was told to by something that identified Dreck by Dreck's internal entity name.

To put it another way, at no time is a game engine told to spawn "something called 'Dreck'" and the game engine has to somehow "figure out" what you mean by that.  Its told to spawn Dreck_the_Elite_Boss_version (not the real name for that NPC, just making up something for clarity) and that name identifies the data associated with that NPC.  If you were writing your own local single player mapserver, you'd write your own code that referenced the IDs within the client pigg files, which is where the data you needed would be.

Incidentally, Paragon Chat does this, specifically for player animation sequence files.  Paragon Chat needs to know how animations work, and it uses the data within the game client to figure this out; the same data the game client itself uses to know how to run animations.  The original game map servers also needed to know this, but contained the sequence files within their own code.  Paragon Chat can't do that, because that would be a copyright violation.  But reading the copy you already have is, if not black-letter legal in every country, at least within the grey area of not distributing copyright content.

Golden Aurora

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2015, 03:33:48 AM »
I had been looking at it from the perspective of the loaded binaries in memory rather than the pig/bin files.
What I had been getting at with the sha-1 example is that it should be possible to write mapserver code which does not use any copyrighted resources directly.
You can't copyright the number 2567. You also can't copyright a sha-1 hash I'd assume.
While I will plead ignorance to the finer details of how the game is implemented, my point is that it should be possible to have your cake and eat it too.
That is to have a mapserver utilizing resources already in the client generically without infringing.

With your animations example, the applicable response is to transmit information about how animations work in a completely different format which is outside the scope of how the game was implemented. With animations you generally have what is a running loop over some time interval right? Transmitting how many times that should run per second isn't infringing on anything. It's just a number.

I'm unsure if this conveys what I'm thinking clearly, but my hope is it does.
As always, thank you for taking time to explain this and to share my thoughts.

Codewalker

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2015, 03:44:43 AM »
I believe mission dialog boxes were stored locally (not sure).  NPC channel dialog was not stored locally**.

Mission briefing text was removed at the same time as NPC dialog, circa Issue 20. It was a real treasure trove of information around Going Rogue beta, where some bits of contacts, missions, and one entire zone (The Fringe) that were cut from release were available.

My personal theory is that they were worried about pigg divers spoiling the "Who Will Die" series, which caused a review of the client files and the discovery that all of the mission text as well as souvenirs were being included. Of course they ended up giving it away anyway by putting some of the framework for the Penelope Yin TF into Independence Port early, but that might have slipped by people who weren't doing extensive bin-file diffs.

IIRC there are a few other conspicuous absences that must have existed purely serverside. Some NPC names are missing, but others are present (technically none of them need to exist on the client except for pets visible in real numbers). The one that has the most impact on potential Paragon Chat features is the long text description for badges. I guess someone was worried about them containing hints about how to earn them.

Very early builds, as in pre-release beta and the copy that's on the launch CD included the actual source *.ms text files that the client messages are built from, with comments and everything. Later those were removed and only the packed bin file remained.

If you look it up on the client, and copy that data into your server implementation to allow the server to spawn and manipulate a Freak NPC, or even write your server to suck that data out of a game client, you're copying content without permission.

Depends on the jurisdiction. In some, temporary copies in memory in order for software to function are not considered 'real' copies. Others lean more towards the UCITA-ish "running any program makes a copy, so you can't use anything without a license" BS. Obviously I'm a little biased since I consider that interpretation to be a gross violation of the original intent of copyright.

Golden Aurora

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2015, 01:51:25 PM »
Temporary in memory copies of executable binary images should not fall under copyright infringement for the same reason that someone taking a picture of your house to measure its size or other dimensions shouldn't be considered home invasion. Of course on a jurisdiction by jurisdiction basis, I have no idea what's legal. I live in California so I automatically assume everything is decently conservative.

I see where the npc scripts logic is going though. If you store that clientside in a way the CoH client is able to recognise then just reference ids from the serverside implementation, you're really not infringing anything. They included all this stuff at one time to begin with anyways. The game was designed that way purposely to handle that type of implementation.

Maybe it's good that they were being shoddy with handling their source material. Heh.

Arcana

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2015, 09:11:24 PM »
Depends on the jurisdiction. In some, temporary copies in memory in order for software to function are not considered 'real' copies. Others lean more towards the UCITA-ish "running any program makes a copy, so you can't use anything without a license" BS. Obviously I'm a little biased since I consider that interpretation to be a gross violation of the original intent of copyright.

In this case I was referring to attempting to write a central server that copied pigg files from cooperating clients to use in a shared environment as a sort of bootstrap.  That's a copyright violation in almost any jurisdiction, and there isn't a moral leg to stand on there.  Copying into memory, for the purposes of using the physically owned copy is a different issue, relevant to things like local servers and things like Paragon Chat.  There, I think the law simply hasn't caught up to the state of the art of 1960s computer technology yet.

Azrael

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2015, 07:30:12 PM »
Quote
BS

Indeed.

Who needs a central server?  I'm quite happy with re-engineered code to enable my local client behave 'like' CoH using a single and LAN player experience using a micro server which sits alongside the client copy.  In much the way that Paragon Chat does now as an 'enabler' of functionality eg.  I walk, I fly, I super speed, I emote, I explore the zones.  Yes.  We know Paragon Chat will probably be 'handed over' to something that will probably do far more than Paragon Chat just as Paragon Chat does far more than Icon.

It doesn't HAVE to be the 'original' game.  It's gone.  (Unless a deal can be struck.)  But it doesn't have to be.  With an Architect/LUA tooled(?) mission maker, with 'GM' powers to create a 'chat' map with spawn able NPCs?  That allows the community to truly 'own' CoH.

How are NC Soft going to play 'whack a mole' with people who were given the 'clients' for 'free' and are using said client to 'chat' or in the future, 'some semblance of CoH' (as we knew it...)?  Are they going to sue 150K former customers?  What?   For running a micro server single player or LAN player game?

And let's face it.  When teaming, I never viewed CoH as anything more than a 'LAN' experience.  Ie.  You only ever teamed with 2-8 players in the main.  In a similar way to a LAN experience of Unreal Tourney.

I found Golden Aurora's posts intriguing regarding the abstracting of certain things to allow them on the local level.  And similarly.  Codewalker and the rest of the SCoRE team seem driven to test the waters and see how we go.  So far...Paragon Chat gives a delicious insight into their strategy with a hand off to some form of 'real time' combat (micro server, I guess?) functionality in the future.

It's only code and a matter of time.

Azrael.

Golden Aurora

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2015, 05:53:53 AM »
That and exactly that. Code and a matter of time.
I mean face it. WoW emulators have existed for years.
Why should one moderately crappy Blizzard MMO have private servers (while the game is still alive!) but ours is floundering in some drawn out negotiations debacle.

If I thought City of Titans would be done any day soon I probably wouldn't be writing this.
Their development reminds me Duke Nukem Forever's...

Vee

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2015, 07:27:03 AM »
 :o If CoT had an established major developer working on it and this were 10 years from now that might be a fair criticism

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2015, 08:59:48 AM »
I had been looking at it from the perspective of the loaded binaries in memory rather than the pig/bin files.
What I had been getting at with the sha-1 example is that it should be possible to write mapserver code which does not use any copyrighted resources directly.
You can't copyright the number 2567. You also can't copyright a sha-1 hash I'd assume.
While I will plead ignorance to the finer details of how the game is implemented, my point is that it should be possible to have your cake and eat it too.
That is to have a mapserver utilizing resources already in the client generically without infringing.

With your animations example, the applicable response is to transmit information about how animations work in a completely different format which is outside the scope of how the game was implemented. With animations you generally have what is a running loop over some time interval right? Transmitting how many times that should run per second isn't infringing on anything. It's just a number.

I'm unsure if this conveys what I'm thinking clearly, but my hope is it does.
As always, thank you for taking time to explain this and to share my thoughts.

The problem with the hash reference idea is that it eliminates the need to use one piece of content - the names of things.  But a mapserver would only need to know or otherwise dance around the name of something if it intended to use that name to retrieve other information associated with that name.  At that point, you might as well use the name.  You can't copyright "a number", but you can copyright a set of numbers intended to express a specific thing, like say the numbers that collectively define the Power Bolt power.  You can't dodge copyright by trying to load those numbers out of the game client by accessing them as "the numbers in the pigg file associated with the power whose name hashes to 0x789123456. 

Let's try to be more specific.  Suppose we thought-experiment a game server that itself contains no copyright material.  The City game client connects to it, and at some point you decide to fight a Freak tank.  Lets jump past the starter questions of how the server knows how to spawn a specific critter like that and look at some simpler questions.  You target the Freak, and on screen you get the health and endurance bars of the target.  How big should the client make them numerically?  That's something that the server tells the client.  So the server has to know.  Since the server has no idea (no content) it has to be written to somehow get that information from the client.  But even though hypothetically speaking that data might be collectively in the pigg files somewhere, the client itself doesn't know that.  Its there, but the client doesn't use it.  So its not going to be floating around in memory for the server to snatch**.  The game server would have to search the client pigg files for that data itself.  If the server is on your computer and your game client is the only thing connected to it, copyright is a little fuzzy as to the legality of this.  But regardless of where the server gets the data (memory or files), if someone else connects to that server and your server also transmits that data to them, you're now on less firm ground.  Your server has taken copyright content out of your client and transmitted it to another person entirely.  Although this is an extremely simplified context, its designed to highlight the point.

I think you might be thinking that the data in question is in the client and the server only needs to "invoke" it, somehow.  But that's not how the game works.  There is a lot of data that in a sense only the server "knew" and the client didn't really know.  The server sent it to the client whenever it was needed.  Technically, that data was sometimes within the client's files, but the client for all practical purposes didn't know that, and didn't use it.  The client's files have all the information you need to create a Freak tank.  But the client has no idea how to do that.  It relies on the game server to tell it what the combat properties of a Freak tank are, and has no ability to look it up itself.  That complicates the idea I think you're trying to communicate.

** Codewalker might demolish this example by  pointing out that in this specific case at lot of that data might actually *be* in memory for technical reasons, but that technical gotcha isn't important to the example

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2015, 09:27:25 AM »
** Codewalker might demolish this example by  pointing out that in this specific case at lot of that data might actually *be* in memory for technical reasons, but that technical gotcha isn't important to the example

That particular data is actually in the client's memory at all times. But if you hadn't said anything I wasn't going to nitpick you on it, since the discussion is about transmitting that data.

(1) In regards to your earlier comment responding to me, the idea of the agent on the client's computer sending data from the piggs over the wire to a server didn't occur to me. That seemed like a clear cut copyright violation to me so I didn't even consider it.

(2) I'd just grab it from the files rather than memory if doing it locally. That's easier, and there's no meaningful distinction between the two methods that would make a difference legally.

Though, I'm not sure if the Freak Tank example is a particularly good one. All the the server is sending is the HP/Endurance totals and the costume index number, and that may be too small of a set of data to be reasonably covered by copyright. It's not sending the combat properties at all -- the client has no use for them -- it just uses them to determine what happens.

It does send the critter's display name as plain text, though, and that's one place that's definitely a gotcha for both copyright and maybe even trademark in some cases.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2015, 07:02:28 PM »
Though, I'm not sure if the Freak Tank example is a particularly good one. All the the server is sending is the HP/Endurance totals and the costume index number, and that may be too small of a set of data to be reasonably covered by copyright. It's not sending the combat properties at all -- the client has no use for them -- it just uses them to determine what happens.

More for simplicity for illustration purposes.  The real copyright violation would be the assertion that this hypothetical server was doing that for several thousand critters, for every combat attribute it had to look up to perform combat.  But that's just the example, repeated millions of time across a lot of design content, in a way difficult to claim was "fair use excerpts."

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2015, 11:08:26 PM »
I more envisioned a translation service between the server and the client.
The sort of thing that implements the functions of a MMO generically, then passes that to the local translation service (ala paragon chat) which interacts with the client directly.

So for instance, the server would understand the concept of a mob, hp totals, combat mods, damage functions, etc. It doesn't have to be a freakshow mob. Just some id for some mob and the values needed to do what it needs to do.

From there the values are passed to the translation service which can do whatever copyright infringing crap needed on their own local machine, sending it to the coh client.

So as an example:
Coh says use brawl on Freakshow mob to translation service.
Translation service says apply power id 123 to mob id 1234 at location 12, 32. Last known mob hp 1223.
Server parses message, looks up function for applying power to mob. Returns new mob hp and any other meta data needed.
Translation service takes meta data, applies it to coh specific data needed, and passes onto client.
Client proceeds as normal.

Does the server need to know the mob name? No. It needs an id and any meta data used in calculations. It's really just a unique identifier agreed on by the translation service and server.

None of what I described is really specific to coh. You could in theory apply this to any mmo following a similar combat system.
Anyways, I guess they could claim the mob hp total, or calculation meta data is infringing.. but whatever.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2015, 12:18:21 AM »
So as an example:
Coh says use brawl on Freakshow mob to translation service.
Translation service says apply power id 123 to mob id 1234 at location 12, 32. Last known mob hp 1223.
Server parses message, looks up function for applying power to mob. Returns new mob hp and any other meta data needed.
Translation service takes meta data, applies it to coh specific data needed, and passes onto client.
Client proceeds as normal.

This is an abstraction error.  In this example, the server doesn't need to know specifics because its given the specifics from the translation layer.  But how does the translation layer know what they are?

Lets back up a step.  Imagine you're running the CoH client and you walk into a mission door.  That mission spawns a three critter spawn at a location thirty feet in front of you.  How does it know to do that?  There is no such information in the client files anywhere.  That information was in the server.  When you make the server, where does that information come from?  If you are recreating actual CoH missions, it ultimately comes from sources derived from the game itself; either someone documented that fact somewhere at some point in time, or someone has that data that was originally in the servers.  Either way, that's copyright material: the design on the mission.

But let's say we throw the mission content away.  Lets say we're running all new missions created by someone else.  But we still want to use CoH critters.  The mapserver has to spawn, say, three freak minions at that spot, because that's what the original, new mission data says to do.  The client doesn't know how to do that.  The client only knows how to spawn three entities that visually use freak minion graphical models.  They will *look* like freak minions, but strictly speaking they are just puppets.  The server knows about things like hit points and endurance and attributes and buff debuff stacks and powers.  The client's *files* have that information, but the client itself is completely ignorant of them.  So when the server spawns those three minions in its own data structures, how will it know what those critters hit points are, what their smashing resistances are, what powers are running on them?  It has to know, because its the thing that actually does the work of making things happen.

The only way I can see this working is if the "translation layers" are really full-fledged mapservers in their own right, capable of doing everything mapservers used to do.  Then, the only thing you'd need to pass around, in theory, are controls and synchronization data.  When a player does something on his or her client, that action information itself is sent to all other "translation layers" and executed in the same way using nothing but local data.  But while this might arguably dodge copyright issues, it does so at the expense of invoking hypothetical technology that to the best of my knowledge doesn't exist.  City of Heroes itself just didn't work in a way that would make this easy to do, as Codewalker has discovered in trying to make Paragon Chat.  In effect, your idea could be paraphrased into something like "make Paragon Chat local servers into full map servers, invent distributed synchronization technology, and presume no one ever tries to cheat the system."

The critical gloss-over is the "and synchronization data" part.  Its what I call a non-trivial problem to make that work given the way City of Heroes works.  City relied on a lot of things happening in very specific ways, within very specific latency windows, and presumed central synchronization.  There's no obvious way to simply synchronize a bunch of individual map servers to work in a reasonable manner that I'm aware of.  I've thought about what such a game architecture would require, and I don't think City was compatible with those requirements.

The reason why we normally presume central servers for combat is that if you really want to replicate how City used to work, its extremely difficult to do that without a central server arbitrating everything.  Its *possible* to envision distributed combat, and in fact I've directly speculated about that very thing in connection with Paragon Chat, but only in the sense of returning a shallow substitute for machinima or role play purposes.  Without a central arbiter of action, some copyright problems are lessened and the expense of having to invent technology that I don't think even exists in the form needed in this context.  You'd create a more difficult problem for yourself than literally recreating the City servers from scratch.  You'd be building something radically more advanced than that.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2015, 12:43:58 AM »
This is an abstraction error.  In this example, the server doesn't need to know specifics because its given the specifics from the translation layer.  But how does the translation layer know what they are?

Lets back up a step.  Imagine you're running the CoH client and you walk into a mission door.  That mission spawns a three critter spawn at a location thirty feet in front of you.  How does it know to do that?  There is no such information in the client files anywhere.  That information was in the server.  When you make the server, where does that information come from?  If you are recreating actual CoH missions, it ultimately comes from sources derived from the game itself; either someone documented that fact somewhere at some point in time, or someone has that data that was originally in the servers.  Either way, that's copyright material: the design on the mission.

Yes and no. Really all you need for a mission is an array of xyz coords, and the ids of the mobs. Maybe some custom triggers on some maps. I'd imagine some sort of tool for either creating this or importing it from somewhere would be needed. As that data is serverside, it's likely lost. But on the other hand, it gives you the ability to procedurally generate maps with random mob placements, etc. It's implied all this data would be stored on the server.

But let's say we throw the mission content away.  Lets say we're running all new missions created by someone else.  But we still want to use CoH critters.  The mapserver has to spawn, say, three freak minions at that spot, because that's what the original, new mission data says to do.  The client doesn't know how to do that.  The client only knows how to spawn three entities that visually use freak minion graphical models.  They will *look* like freak minions, but strictly speaking they are just puppets.  The server knows about things like hit points and endurance and attributes and buff debuff stacks and powers.  The client's *files* have that information, but the client itself is completely ignorant of them.  So when the server spawns those three minions in its own data structures, how will it know what those critters hit points are, what their smashing resistances are, what powers are running on them?  It has to know, because its the thing that actually does the work of making things happen.

Moving the map file critter placements to the server would be necessary here, likely in some other format as detailed above. The client doesn't need to know really what's on the map. It should be told by the server. In fact, if you could patch in critter placements into the maps based on the server's data, that would be ideal. Again, I have no idea what limitations the engine had.

The meta data on the mobs can either be hard coded in (on the server). I think I hinted at that in the post. I.E. mob 321 has 1223 hp, gives 231 xp, has 534 end, and has power abilities 2,3,4,5, and uses critter ai 2 (in some xml/json file somewhere). That or passed in from the translation service in a generic form. The latter isn't optimal as it opens gateways of cheating. Farming mobs of 1hp 99999 xp bosses, anyone?

The role of the server in this case is just to take the generic form of a mob by id, mathematically having the bare meta data necessary for mapserver information, and to relay this back to the translation layers which presents this along with other local data in a format we know and love.

The only way I can see this working is if the "translation layers" are really full-fledged mapservers in their own right, capable of doing everything mapservers used to do.  Then, the only thing you'd need to pass around, in theory, are controls and synchronization data.  When a player does something on his or her client, that action information itself is sent to all other "translation layers" and executed in the same way using nothing but local data.  But while this might arguably dodge copyright issues, it does so at the expense of invoking hypothetical technology that to the best of my knowledge doesn't exist.  City of Heroes itself just didn't work in a way that would make this easy to do, as Codewalker has discovered in trying to make Paragon Chat.  In effect, your idea could be paraphrased into something like "make Paragon Chat local servers into full map servers, invent distributed synchronization technology, and presume no one ever tries to cheat the system."

The translation layers aren't responsible for battle logic. If you incorporate that into those layers, they could possibly be different for each and every player, which leads to sync issues, and all kinds of terrible things.

The critical gloss-over is the "and synchronization data" part.  Its what I call a non-trivial problem to make that work given the way City of Heroes works.  City relied on a lot of things happening in very specific ways, within very specific latency windows, and presumed central synchronization.  There's no obvious way to simply synchronize a bunch of individual map servers to work in a reasonable manner that I'm aware of.  I've thought about what such a game architecture would require, and I don't think City was compatible with those requirements.

In no way did I mean to imply any of this is trivial or easy to implement. We're taking an already hard piece of code and making it harder by abstracting out copyrighted and trademarked items. Performance goals, and other things associated with this would be major roadblocks. I recall CoH always having a 200ms+ latency even on cable internet. I wondered why for years, but assumed it was sync latencies, processing times, etc.

The reason why we normally presume central servers for combat is that if you really want to replicate how City used to work, its extremely difficult to do that without a central server arbitrating everything.  Its *possible* to envision distributed combat, and in fact I've directly speculated about that very thing in connection with Paragon Chat, but only in the sense of returning a shallow substitute for machinima or role play purposes.  Without a central arbiter of action, some copyright problems are lessened and the expense of having to invent technology that I don't think even exists in the form needed in this context.  You'd create a more difficult problem for yourself than literally recreating the City servers from scratch.  You'd be building something radically more advanced than that.

A central server (or group of them!) really should be responsible for its map instance, or predefined section of one. I don't know exactly which all pieces were on the client, server, or where so it's hard to give you precise details, but it should be possible. I mean what do you really need to implement combat logic? Timing (syncs.. thinking of hami raid where it had to slow down to calc everything), meta data (current hp, buffs, debuffs) , hard coded data (max hp, xp rewards, critter type, powers), critter ai, combat functions (power-damage calculation), location information (range information, movement updates) , and finally the local presentation layer of current data.

When you think of the data involved in this, most of it is pure numbers. Only the final portion contains copyrighted pieces. As we don't have the server side files to begin with, most of what would have to happen to implement this would be basically creating it from scratch. I mean at this level you could plausibly turn CoH into a fast paced MUD. That might be a stretch but I hope you get what I mean.

IMO the best way to play with this would be in paragon chat with the AE missions. They're small enough that it would make implementing anything there with custom mobs pretty much guaranteed not to infringe on copyrights. It wouldn't shock me if CW was already doing this, actually. If I didn't have a 9-6 job I would be all over this.

Edit: I will admit one thing I don't have an answer for. In order to create mob placements you need to be able to parse maps. Specifically boundaries which are accessible. The maps are copyrighted, I'd imagine. Parsing those serverside would probably be infringement. The only thing I can think of is extracting bounds information from map files and leaving them hard coded in a xml file. There probably is a better solution for this. I just don't have it.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 12:53:45 AM by Golden Aurora »

Arcana

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2015, 04:06:51 AM »
When you think of the data involved in this, most of it is pure numbers. Only the final portion contains copyrighted pieces.

Full stop.  I get the impression here that you think tables of numbers, because they are somehow "just numbers" cannot be copyrighted.  That's not true.  City used tables for things like critter health (because base critter health varied by intrinsic combat level).  Those tables can be copyrighted.  Damage was calculated from damage tables, also protected by copyright.  You can't say that since NCSoft can't copyright the number 1201, they can't assert copyright over a set of those numbers collectively.  They can.  Aggregates can be protected by copyright when the individual pieces can't be.  You can't copyright individual musical notes, but you can copyright a collection of them that forms a specific song.

You can't just say "right now, at this microsecond, my software is just using this one number, and this one number can't be copyrighted, so that's fine.  And then in the next microsecond I'm just using that number, and that number can't be copyrighted, so that's also fine, and just keep going.  Collectively, you're using the Boss_Grunt HitPoint attribute table, and the combat modifier table, and the power bolt attribmod data, and collectively that's copyright violation.

You also can't make your pseudo-server say something like "figure out whatever the damage is supposed to be when entity XYZ uses whatever power is listed first in its list of attack powers and then subtract that from whatever its max health is and then update the screen" because the client can't do that, and won't understand that.  Something has to do all those calculations for it, and that thing whatever it is must know the real numbers, and not proxies for those numbers.  Whatever that thing is, its using copyrighted content.

Quote
The meta data on the mobs can either be hard coded in (on the server). I think I hinted at that in the post. I.E. mob 321 has 1223 hp, gives 231 xp, has 534 end, and has power abilities 2,3,4,5, and uses critter ai 2 (in some xml/json file somewhere). That or passed in from the translation service in a generic form. The latter isn't optimal as it opens gateways of cheating. Farming mobs of 1hp 99999 xp bosses, anyone?

I should also point out for completeness sake that this is not how City of Heroes works.  Mobs aren't hardcoded with health, because then they wouldn't level scale.  They are defined by critter type, and the game contained tables that said for that type, at this level, health should be this value.  If you don't actually match how City worked, then its really not a City clone anymore.  If you're willing to diverge from how City worked, it might be simpler to avoid copyright problems by just making up your own mobs at that point.

Its the complexity of how City determined what numbers a mob had through a set of dynamic calculations that makes hardcoding tricks like this not work for City.  City was highly table-driven, and its really those tables that define a lot of what we saw in combat NPCs.  And since those tables represent unique design decisions for City of Heroes, they are obviously entitled to copyright protection.

I also don't think you are fully aware of how many things the game kept track of, and what a server needed to know about a critter.  Its a very large amount of information, and extremely difficult to disguise as "just a few numbers you can't copyright."  In order for a central mapserver to know what happens when entity A uses power P on entity B, its unavoidable that the mapserver knows all of those numbers for entity A and entity B and power P, along with all of its attribmods X, Y, and Z.  It can't "know" those things unless it contains the copyright data.  I don't see how you can dodge that.  The thing doing the calculations must know the numbers.  The numbers themselves are the copyright protected data that gets you into trouble.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2015, 04:57:31 AM »
I'll plead ignorance of copyright law on that particular nuance. I had no idea something that generic was considered protected. In that case, I don't see a workable solution without violating the law.

As far as the data driven nature of the game I knew statistics scaled on level but there were some hard coded tables with values from which things derived. Whether that is in a table, script, or programmed in really doesn't matter so much. Some are just easier to maintain and access.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hit_Points

See the how to calculate section for an example of what I meant.

Damn, thought I had a good idea too.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2015, 05:19:22 AM »
All this talk about code and copyrights is giving me a headache. It would be so much easier if sell the game so we could enjoy it again.

As far as this "mapserver", I know that Atlas Park Revival is trying to re-create the game using a different game engine. Now if they ever complete it - and there are really only a few people working on it - the "data tables" would be similar, but different.

And from what I've read, some of the initial CDs distributed for the game's release "accidently" had some of the server code on them. Although this was not intended, it was sold to the players. Now, legally, I believe that the people that have those CDs in theory have a right to use what was sold to them. Unfortunately, I don't have the CD to look for it.
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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2015, 06:53:57 PM »
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hit_Points

Worth noting, the game itself never did that, at least not directly.  Those formulas were derived by players who uncovered the formulas the devs used to create the actual hit point tables, but the way it worked in actuality is every archetype - and archetypes included critter classes like minions and bosses - had this giant what I would call table of tables that had all these numbers precalculated.  What base hitpoints were at level 37.  What runspeed was at level 3.  What max resistance for smashing damage was at level 22.  Even things that ultimately were constant by design were in those tables, like base accuracy.  Every (combat capable) entity had a class, and that class had a big table of tables, and that was used to look up what all of their attributes were for any level.

Even something like "damage modifier" was a player invention.  There was no such thing in the game.  Nowhere in the game was there a "blaster ranged damage modifier" that was 1.125. Every class had a melee_damage and ranged_damage table, and that table told the game how much damage a scale 1 attack would do at every level from 1 to 50 (or for critters, up to 55).  Net damage was calculated, of course, based on combat conditions - damage strength, target resistances, etc, as well as the actual strength of the attack in scale value.  But the relative damage of different critters and player archetypes was built into tables, not formulas (of course, it was probably formula-driven by the designers to some extent).

Its these giant tables of tables that represent obvious copyright-protected content, from which every entity in the game pulled its base attributes.  That's separate from the powers database, which of course also contains obviously copyright protected designs of powers.

One last thing about copyright.  Most people think copyright protects against unauthorized copying only.  But actually, copyright also protects against unauthorized creation of what are called derivative works.  Works that take a protected work, wrap it up in something else, and then tries to distribute the whole.  For example, if you decide to take a movie and MST-ify it by recording yourself in an overlay and then distribute that, you're clearly taking the original movie and distributing it with your own work.  You still own your own work, but you have no right to distribute the original movie with it, even if that movie is heavily altered.  More relevant to our purposes here, if you take all the data in City of Heroes, and deliberately rearrange it so that it no longer looks like the same original format, but the obvious intent is to replicate its original functionality, that would legally be considered a derivative work: you took City of Heroes, rearranged the deck chairs, and then tried to pass it off as an original work.  That would be considered a copyright violation even if there was no obvious "copying" that could be demonstrated on paper.  If they could prove you actually did take the work and transmogrify it in a way that retained its original essence - replicating the game play of the game - that would be enough to prove copyright violation.  And you'd have a hard time claiming that wasn't what you did, since it would be almost impossible for your idea to work unless you deliberately did exactly that.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2015, 06:45:59 AM »
All those tables are just numbers, and you can't copyright a number.

Now the serve just sent numbers to your computer to display different actions by yourself or an opponent. Now if the tables you create aren't exactly the same, or they are in a different order, then you are not copying their information. You are just trying to get a game that doesn't work (since they shut down the servers) to work again.
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Codewalker

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2015, 06:57:20 AM »
All those tables are just numbers, and you can't copyright a number.

All those bytes in "Game of Thrones - Complete Season 5.mp4" are just numbers, and you can't copyright a number.

Go ahead, try it, see how far it gets you.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2015, 07:11:21 AM »
All those bytes in "Game of Thrones - Complete Season 5.mp4" are just numbers, and you can't copyright a number.

Go ahead, try it, see how far it gets you.

My copies of that are MKVs. Seems I dodged a bullet  ;)

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2015, 09:14:00 AM »
All those tables are just numbers, and you can't copyright a number.

Now the serve just sent numbers to your computer to display different actions by yourself or an opponent. Now if the tables you create aren't exactly the same, or they are in a different order, then you are not copying their information. You are just trying to get a game that doesn't work (since they shut down the servers) to work again.

I don't know about you, but when City of Heroes comes back I don't want an injunction to shut it down.  We must do it legal like.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2015, 09:18:41 AM »
All those tables are just numbers, and you can't copyright a number.
It's like you didn't read the single post before yours...
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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2015, 06:48:13 PM »
All those tables are just numbers, and you can't copyright a number.

All the everything in a computer is just numbers.  All the text, all the graphics, all the sound.  Also all the source code for the software: just numbers.  Not only are all the everything in the computer just numbers, its all just two numbers: one and zero.  You can't copyright a number, but you can copyright collections of them that express specific ideas. 

Quote
Now if the tables you create aren't exactly the same, or they are in a different order, then you are not copying their information.

See also: derivative work.  As I mentioned previously, copyright doesn't just protect against unauthorized copying.  Copyright protects a set of rights, and one of them is the right to take an existing protected work and substantively use it in another work, even if it is transformed in some way.  Rearranging the numbers in such a way that you are very obviously trying to make them look superficially different but express the exact same thing is the very definition of a derivative work.

Azrael

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2015, 03:14:09 PM »
Derivative work.  A minefield, legally.  What's original and what isn't?  We've had loads of clones over the years and many legal battles.

Games companies rip other game genres off, interfaces are identical, nominal differences in characters.  Lots of those 'fantasy' MMOs look alike to me.  Remember all those 'Pac Man' clones?  Space Invader clones?  Hard to create in a vacuum.  ?   We do get unusual things.  But there's a lot of 'herd' mentality with fashionable creativity.  The path of least resistance.  Look at the move to 'flat' interfaces rather than 'shiny' relief photographic ones.  Lots of computers look 'alike.'  So do washers.

There's a lot of corporate overreach when it comes to IP.  Then there's the individual creator who has to protect his work from 'big' companies ripping off the 'little' guy.  You get some companies who outright rip things off.  Because they have the legal muscle to do so, profit by it and drag out the court case and the damages end up being a slap on the wrist.

Technology moves quick.

Who decides what's fair.  The corporation?  Or the consumer.  Fair use?  What's that?  You can have the COX client on your computer but not the server code to make it work?  I'd argue for a middle ground as has been mentioned elsewhere.  That you're entitled to the server functionality on a single or LAN local level.  But that you can't develop the game's IP.  One is fair use for your investment the other says, 'Here and no further.  It's not your IP so you can't develop it.'  A bit of give and take in the MMO community.

CoX was a great game for the 'casual gamer' market which has exploded, ironically, with the Wii and the iPhone 'computers.'  It's not all 'hardcore' run with a gun stuff.  (But yes, I had my days playing Unreal Tourney over single player and local LAN...and that's why I'd argue that MMO companies should be able to fit in a fail safe micro server tech' for when the company servers go down...in all inevitability.  This is what I'd call 'fair use.'  It's like making a 'back up' copy of a CD for 'personal' use.  Ie.  I still have what I enjoyed for posterity, enjoyment because I feel that should be my right as a consumer.  If I don't have that right...I'd question how much 'ownership' we're ceding in the corporate/consumer tug of war.  I've played computer games on arcade cabinets, tapes for my C64 and CDs for my Mac/PC and am giving the long stare at this digital age where you have this umbilical cord which can leave you 'stranded' if you don't have an internet connection.  Games companies.  Do your job.  Provide single, LAN and MMO capability for 'those' kind of games.)

What I say maybe isn't legal yet.

But the LAW can still be an ass.  :P  A game can be gathering dust for the sake of some server code that could be run on a local computer these days?  Or a micro server version.  Such a thing could give joy to 100K CoH players.  And many more who never got the change to play a genuine classic game.

And that's why people are pushing for abandoned games to get fair rights useable.  To hold lazy or culpable companies to account for the revenues they enjoyed all those years.  As we move into an 'all digital age' what are our rights?  Who gets to decide that?  The hubris of 200 Billion dollar companies?  Or the consumer themselves?  And gives a long stare at politicians, who he wouldn't hold his breath waiting on for help.

If we're not careful copyright (including legacy copyright and other laws) can stymy the creative pool...progress and ultimately our right to free thought.

Do the 'big' corporations want to own all IP?  ...and all content to go through them and to freeze out the little guy using 'lobbied' laws with deep pocket interests?  I hope the Internet never becomes like that.

Anyway, Merry Christmas everyone. :D

Azrael.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 03:22:16 PM by Azrael »

Arcana

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2015, 06:42:01 PM »
Derivative work.  A minefield, legally.

If you actually attempt to deliberately replicate an actual work, with specificity, through obfuscation, that minefield becomes one field-sized mine.  You'll never win that case in any court anywhere.

Quote
You can have the COX client on your computer but not the server code to make it work?

The problem isn't even the code; while you can argue code (and probably lose) where you will lose with certainty is the fact that the actual content of the game in many respects, such as how missions worked, was only in data files on the server and not in the client.  We don't have that written content anywhere, and arguing that you can just steal it or ignore the copyright on it "just to make your client work" pushes fair use over a cliff and into a volcano.  The server wasn't just an enabler for the client, unlike some MMOs where the entirety of the game content is in the client, in City of Heroes the server was the only place where much of the scripted content existed.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2015, 01:53:55 AM »
Arcana is sounding like a lawyer. I really don't care about all the "legalize", I just want to play again.
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Arcana

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2015, 02:15:42 AM »
Arcana is sounding like a lawyer. I really don't care about all the "legalize", I just want to play again.

But this is a thread discussing a specific legal question.  If you don't care about legalese, why read a thread dedicated explicitly to the legal limits of the Librarian of Congress' exception power within the Digital Millennium Copyright Act?

Azrael

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2015, 09:41:23 PM »
I really don't care about all the "legalize", I just want to play again.

I sympathise with your feelings.  We all 'just want to play again.'  Alas, were it only so.

However, if our hopes are to be realised then we need to be patient beyond measure.

We've been given Icon.  We now have Paragon Chat.  (We have travel powers!  Snow.  Custom tailors.  All the zones.  Tell Chat.  Local chat.  Emotes.  A great ignore/vanish feature...heh...)  Two wonderful gifts to the community.  We can see the evolutionary trajectory of those.  They utilise the local clients many players have on their hard drive.  'Fair use.'

These are...creative solutions in the interim while creative coders find, given enough time, creative solutions to allow those clients to fully employ 'emulated' combat and 'home brew' missions at a local micro (?) server level.  I'm guessing at the latter.  Only SCoRE know for sure what can happen beyond Paragon Chat's timeline which looks set to reinstate a good many of the games features...at the local level under the wrapper of a 'chat' program.  I think that's very clever.  Again, something I'd consider 'fair use.'  At some point, Paragon Chat will 'hand over' to a 'real-time' solution (with all that implies?) to allow some form of combat PVP(?) then later NPC(?)and maybe some AE mission creator/map maker(?) if I'm reading the 'timeline,' and all it implies, for Paragon Chat correctly. 

In the mean time, Paragon Chat offers an intriguing insight into future possibilities.  To currently have something running on servers, connecting local clients of the community to 'chat' and 'tour' Paragon City in a 'legal' way should provide a good test platform for all the technical things any sort of 're-birth' needs.  I wouldn't have thought of that.  A real 'fulcrum-shift' (couldn't resist...) in thinking. ;)

It's a journey.  I'm enjoying each bit that 'comes back.'  It's constructive.  It's passionate.  It 'does something about' the loss of CoH.  Clearly the loss of Paragon Studio and CoH to the CoH community still resonates and drives people onwards to keep its spirit alive.

If the much vaunted 'deal' comes through.  Nice.  But whether that deal comes through or not...I get the feeling that SCoRE have far more interesting things planned for the Phoenix of CoH's rebirth and for the CoH community that may track beyond the game's original features.

If that means we lose the original missions and content?  So be it.  We don't really need it.  We played it all.  Now it's gone.  If it comes back.  Fine.  But if it doesn't.  *shrugs.  CoH rebirthed as a game that is 'given' back to the community in some capacity aka Icon, aka Paragon Chat, AKA whatever comes after that...

Some may argue, 'Are our actions not just..?'

Azrael.

PS.  There's also people fighting for further rights to include MMOS in abandoneware legislation.  They should be included but gamers and voters need to pile on the pressure on games companies and their politicians.  So it becomes 'fair use.'  That's another 'ongoing' battle.

So.  It's not over.

'Not yet.'  To quote a certain someone.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2015, 07:30:29 AM »

So.  It's not over.

'Not yet.'  To quote a certain someone.

Beautifully said.  A post like this give us hope even if the talks do fail. 
One day in the future, we'll have it back in some shape or form.

JaguarX

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2015, 12:12:27 AM »
I sympathise with your feelings.  We all 'just want to play again.'  Alas, were it only so.

However, if our hopes are to be realised then we need to be patient beyond measure.

We've been given Icon.  We now have Paragon Chat.  (We have travel powers!  Snow.  Custom tailors.  All the zones.  Tell Chat.  Local chat.  Emotes.  A great ignore/vanish feature...heh...)  Two wonderful gifts to the community.  We can see the evolutionary trajectory of those.  They utilise the local clients many players have on their hard drive.  'Fair use.'

These are...creative solutions in the interim while creative coders find, given enough time, creative solutions to allow those clients to fully employ 'emulated' combat and 'home brew' missions at a local micro (?) server level.  I'm guessing at the latter.  Only SCoRE know for sure what can happen beyond Paragon Chat's timeline which looks set to reinstate a good many of the games features...at the local level under the wrapper of a 'chat' program.  I think that's very clever.  Again, something I'd consider 'fair use.'  At some point, Paragon Chat will 'hand over' to a 'real-time' solution (with all that implies?) to allow some form of combat PVP(?) then later NPC(?)and maybe some AE mission creator/map maker(?) if I'm reading the 'timeline,' and all it implies, for Paragon Chat correctly. 

In the mean time, Paragon Chat offers an intriguing insight into future possibilities.  To currently have something running on servers, connecting local clients of the community to 'chat' and 'tour' Paragon City in a 'legal' way should provide a good test platform for all the technical things any sort of 're-birth' needs.  I wouldn't have thought of that.  A real 'fulcrum-shift' (couldn't resist...) in thinking. ;)

It's a journey.  I'm enjoying each bit that 'comes back.'  It's constructive.  It's passionate.  It 'does something about' the loss of CoH.  Clearly the loss of Paragon Studio and CoH to the CoH community still resonates and drives people onwards to keep its spirit alive.

If the much vaunted 'deal' comes through.  Nice.  But whether that deal comes through or not...I get the feeling that SCoRE have far more interesting things planned for the Phoenix of CoH's rebirth and for the CoH community that may track beyond the game's original features.

If that means we lose the original missions and content?  So be it.  We don't really need it.  We played it all.  Now it's gone.  If it comes back.  Fine.  But if it doesn't.  *shrugs.  CoH rebirthed as a game that is 'given' back to the community in some capacity aka Icon, aka Paragon Chat, AKA whatever comes after that...

Some may argue, 'Are our actions not just..?'

Azrael.

PS.  There's also people fighting for further rights to include MMOS in abandoneware legislation.  They should be included but gamers and voters need to pile on the pressure on games companies and their politicians.  So it becomes 'fair use.'  That's another 'ongoing' battle.

So.  It's not over.

'Not yet.'  To quote a certain someone.

indeed.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2015, 12:38:16 AM »
That you're entitled to the server functionality on a single or LAN local level.  But that you can't develop the game's IP.  One is fair use for your investment the other says, 'Here and no further.  It's not your IP so you can't develop it.'
It'd be awesome if that were to happen, maybe even have the Server Functionality brought up a notch after a set amount of time, provided no one tries developing the game's IP, thus proving that people could be trusted to not try and make a profit off the game.

Only downside is we're talking about a game's IP & Rights that's been sitting on a shelf covered in dust for the past 3 years.

On a side note, I don't understand why NCsoft has been sitting on the IP & Rights to CoH/CoV, I mean what kind of logic is there for a Company to sit on the IP & Rights to something for 3 years, causing the value of said IP & Rights to go down? I mean, that's completely counter productive, especially when said company has to renew their hold on the IP & Rights every year, thus more money down the drain.

Arcana

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2015, 09:13:17 PM »
On a side note, I don't understand why NCsoft has been sitting on the IP & Rights to CoH/CoV, I mean what kind of logic is there for a Company to sit on the IP & Rights to something for 3 years, causing the value of said IP & Rights to go down? I mean, that's completely counter productive, especially when said company has to renew their hold on the IP & Rights every year, thus more money down the drain.

Copyright doesn't have to be renewed at all in most parts of the world.  Trademarks do have to be renewed, but only every ten years, at trivial cost.

Intellectual property is one of those things you just never know when it will become useful or valuable.  Companies stockpile it like hoarders stockpile Readers Digest.  If just one tenth of one percent of it ever suddenly becomes useful, it can make back many hundreds of times more than all the tiny costs of maintaining the rights to it.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2015, 10:07:55 PM »
Companies stockpile it like hoarders stockpile Readers Digest.

That's only lazy hoarders. If you're hardcore you want the full magazines RD pulls from.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2015, 10:14:14 PM »
What if someone produced an old version of a CoH-like server... like SEGS (https://github.com/Segs/segs). The project went completely dark a year ago, but I haven't seen any legal mumbo jumbo about it?  Think that was Issue #4 from May '05. Over 10 years.

Ultimately it does come down to supplier vs. consumer rights. If all we did as consumers was subscribe on a monthly basis, then NCSoft reserved the right to shutdown the servers. But we actually bought the clients themselves, and certainly have a right to maintain client functionality on some level. Perhaps not on a 'massive' level, but on a micro/private/non-profit level? Can't think of any other product where consumers are not allowed to maintain functionality of goods once the producer ends support.

And apart from that, I remember from long ago that the Cryptic devs themselves retained rights to CoH... (and the only reason I remember is that such a maneuver was unheard of...) not sure how that factors into everything.
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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2015, 04:12:21 AM »
And apart from that, I remember from long ago that the Cryptic devs themselves retained rights to CoH... (and the only reason I remember is that such a maneuver was unheard of...) not sure how that factors into everything.
Not true. Cryptic sold everything to NCsoft. They retained the rights to the base engine the game is built on, but the engine at sale and the engine at game-close are so different as to be completely incompatible with each other.
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Arcana

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2015, 08:24:07 AM »
Can't think of any other product where consumers are not allowed to maintain functionality of goods once the producer ends support.

Actually, I can reverse that statement.  I can't think of many product categories where the producers of the product lose their legal rights to protect it when they stop supporting it.

The game client hasn't stopped working.  You can still play demorecords with it, and you can also use it in projects like Icon.  The client still functions just fine.  You're trying to split the hair that because the game servers no longer exist, the game client should be considered to be "broken" and you have the right to "fix" them by recreating the servers and all of the content that existed on them.  But that's like saying if you bought a radio to play a very specific set of music from a specific radio station and they go off the air, that entitles you to make your own copies of that music to play yourself.

Quote
Ultimately it does come down to supplier vs. consumer rights. If all we did as consumers was subscribe on a monthly basis, then NCSoft reserved the right to shutdown the servers. But we actually bought the clients themselves, and certainly have a right to maintain client functionality on some level.

I should also point out that you did not actually purchase the client.  You purchased a box with a manual and a disc.  The EULA specifies that you purchased a limited license to use the client.  NCSoft explicitly stated in the license agreement that they had the right to revoke the right to use the client at any time, and had the right to shut down the servers that contained the game content at any time.  You have no ownership rights to the game client software.

Arcana

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2015, 08:38:38 AM »
Not true. Cryptic sold everything to NCsoft. They retained the rights to the base engine the game is built on, but the engine at sale and the engine at game-close are so different as to be completely incompatible with each other.

Although I'm obviously not privy to the NCSoft/Cryptic acquisition agreement I'm quite certain it either states that Cryptic sold the CoH software engine to NCSoft but required NCSoft to grant them a license to use it and any of its technology components in their own software, or conversely (and I think far more likely) they sold all of the IP to NCSoft but only granted NCSoft a non-exclusive license to use the CoH software and to extend and modify it in any way to support City of Heroes and any derivative work.

The latter is I think more likely than the former for the simple reason that if Cryptic actually sold NCSoft the software, including all copyright ownership, then if anyone at Cryptic made the mistake of using some of that code in another product at Cryptic then NCSoft, as the new owners of all that technology, could hypothetically claim that software infringed on their rights.  By licensing the game engine to NCSoft, Cryptic avoids the problem of having to make sure none of CoH's code exists in any other Cryptic work.

It would also explain why Cryptic's name was still on City of Heroes screens: it incorporated a licensed work of Cryptic's.  It could also explain why in discussions about acquiring CoH from NCSoft it appeared (if I'm remembering correctly) that NCSoft was willing to sell the IP but only license the game software.  Maybe they *can't* sell it, only sublicense it.

NOTE: this helps us not at all.  Even if Cryptic still had rights to the game software, talking to them helps nothing because without the game content, the software is worthless.  For technical reasons, the software and the content are intertwined in complex ways: if you were to get the server software without game content, making all new content from scratch would mean it wouldn't work with the current game clients: you'd have to purge all the content out of them as well, and in effect you'd be making a totally new and unrecognizable game, using a game engine with a lot of strange hooks to non-existent content as your starting point.  That's actually taking a significant step backwards, two steps sideways, and doing so blindfolded.

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Re: "Abandoned Games" exemption?
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2015, 01:42:55 PM »
Actually, I can reverse that statement.  I can't think of many product categories where the producers of the product lose their legal rights to protect it when they stop supporting it.

The game client hasn't stopped working.  You can still play demorecords with it, and you can also use it in projects like Icon.  The client still functions just fine.  You're trying to split the hair that because the game servers no longer exist, the game client should be considered to be "broken" and you have the right to "fix" them by recreating the servers and all of the content that existed on them.  But that's like saying if you bought a radio to play a very specific set of music from a specific radio station and they go off the air, that entitles you to make your own copies of that music to play yourself.

I should also point out that you did not actually purchase the client.  You purchased a box with a manual and a disc.  The EULA specifies that you purchased a limited license to use the client.  NCSoft explicitly stated in the license agreement that they had the right to revoke the right to use the client at any time, and had the right to shut down the servers that contained the game content at any time.  You have no ownership rights to the game client software.

indeed