Author Topic: Question about current IP Rights holder  (Read 22651 times)

Baaleos

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Question about current IP Rights holder
« on: January 12, 2016, 03:43:48 PM »
Hypothetically - if someone wanted to investigate a career in writing and wanted to use elements from the NCSoft City of Heroes game.
They would undoubtedly require a signed release from the IP Rights holder allowing the limited use of terms and phrases from their IP.
Eg: wanting to use the Kheldian race out of context from the City of Heroes universe.

There are ways of doing it without this document
eg: Fair Use etc- proving that it is for non-profit etc

But failing that a release would likely be required.

Does anyone know who the current IP Rights holder is?
I mean, has the brand been sold to the new guys, or is it still with NCSoft.
Also - if NCSoft were to grant a release before transferring ownership - would the new guys have to respect the release?

Aggelakis

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2016, 01:42:19 PM »
Does anyone know who the current IP Rights holder is?
NCsoft.
Quote
Also - if NCSoft were to grant a release before transferring ownership - would the new guys have to respect the release?
Yes.
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Victoria Victrix

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2016, 06:07:25 AM »
If someone wanted to investigate a career in writing, my first advice would have nothing to do with CoH.  It would be "get a day job that doesn't make you want to open a vein rather than go to work."

Of all of the members of the Science Fiction Writers of America, only about 5% of them make a living from writing.

Of that 5%, most of them make a living writing things in addition to writing sf prose.  The some of them are writing in other genres, like romance, thrillers, and work-for-hire.  Some are journalists.  Some of them are writing ad copy, or working for trade magazines (like the magazines you find in the back seat pockets of airplanes).

There are only a handful of writers who are making a full time living writing science fiction and fantasy.

The odds are only slightly better than winning the lottery, but the lottery only costs you $2, and betting everything on being able to make your living writing has very high odds of you living under a bridge.
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blacksly

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2016, 03:43:42 PM »
betting everything on being able to make your living writing has very high odds of you living under a bridge.

However, it is most certainly true that if I were looking for a demographic most likely to be fine living under a bridge, internet message board posters is probably the one I would go for ;)

MM3squints

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2016, 02:41:47 AM »
If someone wanted to investigate a career in writing, my first advice would have nothing to do with CoH.  It would be "get a day job that doesn't make you want to open a vein rather than go to work."

Of all of the members of the Science Fiction Writers of America, only about 5% of them make a living from writing.

Of that 5%, most of them make a living writing things in addition to writing sf prose.  The some of them are writing in other genres, like romance, thrillers, and work-for-hire.  Some are journalists.  Some of them are writing ad copy, or working for trade magazines (like the magazines you find in the back seat pockets of airplanes).

There are only a handful of writers who are making a full time living writing science fiction and fantasy.

The odds are only slightly better than winning the lottery, but the lottery only costs you $2, and betting everything on being able to make your living writing has very high odds of you living under a bridge.

As a writer, how accurate is this joke?


Victoria Victrix

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2016, 09:31:50 AM »
The joke is accurate mostly for those who write work for hire and to specification.  When you do that, you take what jobs come your way, whether or not you know anything about or even like the subject.  IMHO, that is why the actual City of Heroes work-for-hire books are so soulless.  I know the first author, he didn't know anything about CoH and he didn't give a shit about the subject; the next month, he was probably writing a NASCAR romance (and yes, for a while, that was a thing).  I expect the other two were the same.

For those of us who do not make our living doing work for hire, you absolutely must love what you do, because if you don't it shows.  If you don't love what you write, and think about it even when you aren't writing, it shows.  I did exactly one book out of the hundred or so that have been published for the money.  It showed.  It has sold the worst of all of them.
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Blackout

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2016, 02:42:16 PM »
The joke is accurate mostly for those who write work for hire and to specification.  When you do that, you take what jobs come your way, whether or not you know anything about or even like the subject.  IMHO, that is why the actual City of Heroes work-for-hire books are so soulless.  I know the first author, he didn't know anything about CoH and he didn't give a pancake about the subject; the next month, he was probably writing a NASCAR romance (and yes, for a while, that was a thing).  I expect the other two were the same.

For those of us who do not make our living doing work for hire, you absolutely must love what you do, because if you don't it shows.  If you don't love what you write, and think about it even when you aren't writing, it shows.  I did exactly one book out of the hundred or so that have been published for the money.  It showed.  It has sold the worst of all of them.

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree I know that at least one of the CoH novel authors had a history of writing for superheroes, and for writing for comics in general.

Tubbius

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2016, 04:32:33 AM »
. . . the next month, he was probably writing a NASCAR romance (and yes, for a while, that was a thing).  I expect the other two were the same.

I remember seeing one of those books in Waldenbooks at the local mall some years ago!  I remember wondering what kind of whack-job demographic they were aiming for, because NASCAR and romance novels just don't seem to go together.

I'm glad I wasn't hallucinating on seeing that book's cover.

Joshex

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2016, 01:13:31 PM »
Hypothetically - if someone wanted to investigate a career in writing and wanted to use elements from the NCSoft City of Heroes game.
They would undoubtedly require a signed release from the IP Rights holder allowing the limited use of terms and phrases from their IP.
Eg: wanting to use the Kheldian race out of context from the City of Heroes universe.

There are ways of doing it without this document
eg: Fair Use etc- proving that it is for non-profit etc

this is a thin line question, I was going to post a whole big post on player's rights a while back in another thread but I decided against it. but here it is now anyways.

if you made a character in city of X (which by now with all the player databases deleted they have no way to prove that you didn't) purely going by the ToS/disclaimer provided with the game, you own your character in it's entirety as long as it is not infringing on IPs held by other owners.

what that means is so long as it's an original character of your own design, you own it.

this actually entitles you to a lot. you can claim that your character's iconic looks are derived from CoX's costume designer (citing the costume pieces and color schemes) this gives you a right to utilize these costume assets for your character in whatever media form you want (even though you were not the original creator of the assets) this includes the rights to rip and use the actual 3D models of your character for whatever you decide, profit or no profit.

in effect the individual costume parts used become properties of the public domain.

to the same effect, you were encouraged to make characters with the given archetypes, kheldians being several of them, this allows you to utilize them to your heart's content. they become public domain so long as you made an original costume/story, you own the character, you own the looks, you own the story to that character and you own the right to use the type of origin the character had. for the shape shift forms, you share the public rights to them.

To a similar effect, you were encouraged to make characters which live and operate and have origin stories and interactions with the CoX universe, including zone maps, contacts, enemies, enemy groups, powers and power names, items and item names, missions and TF/SFs ETC. This allots you SOME LIMITED right to the usage of these assets in anything made about your character. the limitation being that you can't just go infringing the whole game claiming that your character interacted with all of it, you can use it 'situationally', and you should come up with a unique story to any such missions, encounters ETC. this does even allot the right to use any art asset from the game, just so long as you're not deemed to be using enough of it in one place to be considered "too close to a functional reproduction of the original".

For example Titan Icon and Paragon chat utilize ALL the art assets and some of the game assets such as the character designer, this is actually well with-in the realms of OK.

The line is crossed when you start duplicating enemy spawns as they would happen in CoX, or start using the CoX stat system to program battle calcs in an MMO game, or produce exact copies of CoX missions with no original unique personalizations by yourself, or use proprietary characters as more than a non-playable cameo appearance, or use the entirety of one or more enemy groups from CoX, or sell rights to use the character designer to output character files for another game, or reproduce the UI elements exactly as they were for your own game ETC.

We all own the right to use atlas park, it's a shared public right. but our usage of it must be unique as necessary to the story of the character we made in CoX that needs it, and it must not be an exact functional replica if it's game based, think level-based gaming "LV 1 atlas park" and think "never /all/ the spawn points, never the /whole/ map".

so there you have it, NCSoft does own all this stuff but by giving you ownership of your character and the ownership of your character in the context of CoX you may use thier assets to some limited ability for profit or not for profit.

you would not need any other agreement than the original disclaimer provided by NCSoft which logically should have the lines pertaining to what you used included in whatever it is you made with it. you must also add in your own disclaimer that [list of things][/list] are owned by NCSoft, I am using them only as allowed under 1; NCSoft's own disclaimer and 2; rights to the assets as found under the laws regarding the public domain. and you must never charge directly or indirectly for these assets.

You can charge for a game based on your character in paragon or the rogue isles, praetoria, pocket D etc., but you can't charge to unlock the rogue isles or any of those places! not even allow it to be unlocked with "game coins" for which someone paid real money (indirect), not even if using game coins as optional along side in-game currency, Not even if using game coins to play a lottery where you could win the right to unlock these assets, not even giving the assets away for free as a listed bonus with a purchase!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 12:15:12 AM by Joshex »
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2016, 03:02:30 AM »
Sorry Josh.  You have it very wrong again.

Yes, you have the rights to your own character, name, and to a certain extent, costume.  What you do not have the rights to, under any circumstances whatsoever, is to utilize anything that was Trademarked or Copyrighted under City of Heroes.  No Kheldians (although you can have an energy being that shapeshifts into human form easily enough, you can't have the "crab" and "squid" forms as described).  No Paragon City.  No ATs that are demonstrably mere copies of the City ATs.  No "mishing" in the sense we did it, no "teams" in the sense we had them.  Absolutely none of the City Lore.  And a crafty lawyer could probably even make a case for NCSoft owning the rights to your characters as well, at least insofar as name and looks go.  There is absolutely nothing in CoH that is in "public domain."  Nothing.  You certainly cannot use things like Kheldians who even the stupidist lawyer in the world could demonstrate existed only in CoH.

Now, Cryptic, Paragon, and NCSoft did explicitly grant us the use of these things in not-for-profit fanfiction, in fact, encouraged this.  But when it comes to--as the OP originally said --making a living from writing, using any of these assets whatsoever is going to earn you a Cease and Desist at best, and a lawsuit at worst.

Being so exceptionally careful about this is why, when we started writing the Secret World Chronicle even though we were not using anything like the CoH univers, ATs, or lore, and were very careful not to do so, we worked out an agreement in advance for cross-marketing--"You allow us to use characters we developed in the game, and we advertise your game for free." 

Arguing (from absolute ignorance, might I add) that because Titan Icon and Paragon Chat use the CoH assets means anyone can use them for profit in fiction is like claiming "God is Love, Love is Blind, therefore Stevie Wonder is God."  Titan Icon allows individuals to utilize game resources they bought and paid for on their own computers, and not in a public forum.  Paragon Chat gets much dicier because it brings those resources out into the public, but no one is making a profit on them, but NcSoft is totally within its rights to demand PC get shut down.

And once again, no one but NCSOFT owns the rights to use Paragon City, Atlas Park, Talos Island, Kheldians, Fire Tanks, Incarnate Trials etc. etc. etc. for profit.   Period.  End of discussion.

Please stop shooting your mouth off about things you clearly do not understand.  You could get someone in trouble and ruin things like Paragon Chat for the rest of us.
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Victoria Victrix

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 03:06:41 AM »
I remember seeing one of those books in Waldenbooks at the local mall some years ago!  I remember wondering what kind of whack-job demographic they were aiming for, because NASCAR and romance novels just don't seem to go together.

I'm glad I wasn't hallucinating on seeing that book's cover.

You weren't.  It was part of a cross-marketing scheme between Harlequin and NASCAR.  I guess they thought that women who went to NASCAR races would automatically buy a NASCAR romance, and women who bought romances might buy a NASCAR romance and would then automatically start going to NASCAR races.

I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 03:29:56 AM »
You weren't.  It was part of a cross-marketing scheme between Harlequin and NASCAR.  I guess they thought that women who went to NASCAR races would automatically buy a NASCAR romance, and women who bought romances might buy a NASCAR romance and would then automatically start going to NASCAR races.

Did they go something like this "The mechanic gently rested his dirty hands on her cheek.  He looked her in the eyes and then leaned in close to share with her his deepest and darkest desires.  He opens his mouth and yells 'VROOOOOOOOOOOM'"



MM3squints

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2016, 07:05:02 AM »
You weren't.  It was part of a cross-marketing scheme between Harlequin and NASCAR.  I guess they thought that women who went to NASCAR races would automatically buy a NASCAR romance, and women who bought romances might buy a NASCAR romance and would then automatically start going to NASCAR races.

The funny thing, this tactic reminds me of a friend who got his girlfriend into CoX  by walking her in like it was "The Sims" where you can make a costume and your toon and look like how they would in "The Sims." Slowly over time, he hooked her into the game, it was a lot cheaper than going to the movies every other week, and instead they just played together.

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2016, 08:03:29 AM »
Sorry Josh.  You have it very wrong again.

Thank you, Victoria Victrix, for helping to clear that up.

Joshex, please don't post advice regarding what is and isn't "fair use" of CoH IP.  You're only going to invite legal trouble for people who don't know any better.
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Aggelakis

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2016, 09:13:59 AM »
Joshex, please don't post advice
Honestly, you could have stopped there.

Sorry, Joshex...I have stopped reading your posts entirely, and just assume you're rambling way off course at this point. Perhaps you should think about why everyone discounts your posts without even reading them, or if they read them, are suddenly struck by a sudden case of the facepalms.
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Joshex

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2016, 01:10:56 PM »
Honestly, you could have stopped there.

Sorry, Joshex...I have stopped reading your posts entirely, and just assume you're rambling way off course at this point. Perhaps you should think about why everyone discounts your posts without even reading them, or if they read them, are suddenly struck by a sudden case of the facepalms.

what can I say?, I don't want to lurk because I want to converse about the possibility of getting the game back, but I have nothing to really say or contribute to anything concerning getting the game back, because most everything that needed to be said has already been said. All I can do is say something that has not already been said based off of what I think.

Edit; which is the polite way of saying I'm half trolling and half speaking out of my donkey. and I'm sorry.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 01:22:22 PM by Joshex »
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Vee

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2016, 05:53:16 PM »
Did they go something like this "The mechanic gently rested his dirty hands on her cheek.  He looked her in the eyes and then leaned in close to share with her his deepest and darkest desires.  He opens his mouth and yells 'VROOOOOOOOOOOM'"

"How could she tell him that she needed a full lube job, not just a three second tire change and a slap on the bumper?"

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2016, 09:14:01 PM »

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2016, 12:06:34 AM »
"How could she tell him that she needed a full lube job, not just a three second tire change and a slap on the bumper?"

This literally made me lol.

Honestly, you could have stopped there.

Sorry, Joshex...I have stopped reading your posts entirely, and just assume you're rambling way off course at this point. Perhaps you should think about why everyone discounts your posts without even reading them, or if they read them, are suddenly struck by a sudden case of the facepalms.

For the longest time I thought I was going crazy because no one would call him on his crazy posts except for you. I still read his posts though. Now I read them for entertainment value.  "What will THIS one say"

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Question about current IP Rights holder
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2016, 06:09:03 AM »
All I can do is say something that has not already been said based off of what I think.


Based off what you think. you could get people in serious legal trouble. 

And apparently that doesn't bother you at all.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido