Author Topic: rebuild COH  (Read 26393 times)

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
rebuild COH
« on: February 16, 2016, 06:07:37 PM »
Doc Artz

aXe

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2016, 10:29:05 PM »
Its very easy for you to suggest this while letting others take the potentailly life ruining legal flak. As much as we all miss CoH, none of us should expect anyone to get into huge trouble over a video game.

Besides, negotiations for its re release are still ongoing. It would be foolhardy to destroy those efforts, especially since they've been ongoing for years.

Paragon Avenger

  • Circles and Triangles
  • Elite Boss
  • *
  • Posts: 6,246
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2016, 01:18:48 AM »
NCSoft won't come after you ... for donuts.

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2016, 03:26:11 AM »
NCSoft won't come after you ... for donuts.

So someone else sees that NCsoft's a whimp! it would cost them far too much money and there were be the key question, "Why are you suing COT/Paragon if you're allowing them access to the very same zones"? I rest my case. After all it was getting heavy ;D
8)
Doc Artz

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2016, 04:20:16 AM »
Its very easy for you to suggest this while letting others take the potentailly life ruining legal flak.

It's also very easy to suggest someone else putting in all the hard work to recreate something that represents 11 or 12 years of continuous development.

I've yet to see anyone put forward a solid plan to do so that doesn't involve handwaving numerous developers out of thin air who have the chops to reverse engineer something of that scope, forwards engineer something compatible with it, and enough free time to spend on it.

But by all means, if you the proverbial reader have the skills and manpower to do something like that, and the resources to withstand whatever legal assault NCSoft mounts (hint: google Aion private servers in Japan, or the Tabula Rasa emulator), go for it.

Reaper

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2016, 08:04:13 PM »
If only someone had suggested this sooner!  All this time...
Patiently lurking from the shadows...

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2016, 08:42:26 PM »
I propose three teams: team one will remake the game perfectly. hell, go ahead and upgrade the engine etc. and allow for game updates. team two will be in charge of discovering a parallel earth where CoH never existed and a way to transport us all there (the latter might be trivial given Joshex's Beyonder powers). Team three will be in charge of parallel earth logistics such as setting up our identities, housing, funding etc. so that we're all able to play as much as we want when we get there.

doc7924

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,315
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2016, 12:37:41 AM »
If only someone had suggested this sooner!  All this time...

DOH!

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2016, 12:38:33 AM »
Its very easy for you to suggest this while letting others take the potentailly life ruining legal flak. As much as we all miss CoH, none of us should expect anyone to get into huge trouble over a video game.

Besides, negotiations for its re release are still ongoing. It would be foolhardy to destroy those efforts, especially since they've been ongoing for years.

It may not be fool  hardy if the PR is abandoned  ;):
                                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proprietary software which is no longer marketed, supported or sold by its owner is called "abandon ware" and the digital form of orphaned works.
If the proprietor of a software package should cease to exist, or decide to cease or limit production or support for a proprietary software package, recipients and users of the package may have no recourse if problems are found with the software.  Proprietors can fail to improve and support software because of business problems.  Support for older or existing versions of a software package may be ended to force users to upgrade and pay for newer versions (Planned obsolescence).  Sometimes another vendor or a software's community themselves can provide support for the software, or the users can migrate to either competing systems with longer support life cycles or to FOSS-based systems.
Realistically and for practical purposes, COH has been abandoned.
why would NCsoft ever waste their money or  time seeking  an injunction on something they have abandoned? Neither I  nor does anyone else  know what NCsoft would do. I believe  NCsoft will do what is cheapest and easiest for this mess, which they created, to just go away.
  8)
 
Doc Artz

Leandro

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 310
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2016, 12:43:39 AM »
why would NCsoft ever waste their money or  time seeking  an injunction on something they have abandoned? Neither I  nor does anyone else  know what NCsoft would do. I believe  NCsoft will do what is cheapest and easiest for this mess, which they created, to just go away.

Tabula Rasa was also abandoned. NCsoft hit them with a Cease & Desist order regardless. We know what they would do, because they've already done it.

saipaman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2016, 05:38:36 PM »
If you have lawyers on your payroll, then it costs you almost nothing to take these actions.

GladDog

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2016, 09:38:14 PM »
I have read any number of articles on this subject.  All of this has to take into consideration a couple of things;

1) Matt Miller said the code for CoH had devolved into spagetti.  Remaking it would be a nightmare.
2) According to everything I have read, there were legal reasons that they shut down CoH, not monetary ones.  Until those issues are resolved, I doubt we will see CoH reborn or CoH2.

That said, there is a legal precedent in the US.  It was ruled that a game that could not be accessed because there are no authentication servers could be accessed without penalty, assuming there is available server software.  This means that if you have viable server software for a game abandoned by the game creator, you can use your own authentication system and restart the game.

That said, refer back to point number 1.  It would probably take a dedicated team years to rebuild the code for CoH, and there would be no hope at all of regaining your old characters and stuff.

Also, number 2.  While it is obvious that NCsoft has given up on CoH, at least for now, they are still defending the trademark.  This eliminates the abandonment angle and gives them the right to sue anyone that tries to recreate the game.

Ironwolf

  • Stubborn as a
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2016, 01:06:35 AM »
Except a group is working to buy the game and there were no legal reasons it was shut down.

It was shutdown because NCSoft was moving to the Asian market and CoH did not make enough money to keep open. It was business and nothing personal on the shutdown - things got personal on the effort to rebuy.


Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2016, 02:10:25 AM »
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 01:36:42 AM by Doc Artz »
Doc Artz

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2016, 01:51:19 AM »
Doc Artz

Brigadine

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 561
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2016, 07:45:41 AM »

Reaper

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2016, 04:29:36 PM »
I have to admit I laughed right out loud when I saw the voting option appear.  If only there was an option that said "I was secretly holding a copy of the rebuilt product and thought it would be funny to sit on it for a while."

Although "Yes" is probably the best answer.   ;)
Patiently lurking from the shadows...

chuckv3

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 362
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2016, 05:06:06 PM »
Doc, We've already been over this (AD NAUSEUM) in these forums about what we'd like:
- We want the original game running somewhere (the SERVER pieces)
- We want the IP rights so we can include thematic tie-ins (zones, characters, story lines) within the successor efforts
- We want the legal option to write a work-alike of the original with updated graphics (SERVER and/or CLIENT)

Also, there are already 4 efforts to recreate the game or a successor, and an effort to secure the IP and a backup of the server components.


Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2016, 03:38:39 AM »
Doc Artz

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2016, 04:04:35 AM »
i don't have the foggiest idea what your poorly chosen metaphors are supposed to invoke but i feel skeevy nonetheless.

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2016, 05:07:20 AM »
- We want the IP rights so we can include thematic tie-ins (zones, characters, story lines) within the successor efforts

I was under the impression that the successors (other than Atlas Park Revival) had turned down that option, as they have already invested a lot of time into creating their own IP. I thought the IP was so that CoH 2 could be made, or so that other media (other types of games, books, etc.) could be used.
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Solitaire

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 395
  • Badge Hunting
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2016, 09:45:35 AM »
Except a group is working to buy the game and there were no legal reasons it was shut down.

It was shutdown because NCSoft was moving to the Asian market and CoH did not make enough money to keep open. It was business and nothing personal on the shutdown - things got personal on the effort to rebuy.

IF only things hadn't got personal  :(

Ice Trix

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 184
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2016, 08:41:33 AM »
It may not be fool  hardy if the PR is abandoned  ;):
                                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proprietary software which is no longer marketed, supported or sold by its owner is called "abandon ware" and the digital form of orphaned works.
Abandonware isn't a legal term, and no rights exist to access it. (Sadly). You just are less likey to get DMCA take down requests if you host it compared to hosting a latest release game.
A lot of Abandonware sites have games that are still being sold at places like gog.com

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/what-is-abandonware-and-is-it-legal/

Soul Resonance

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 159
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2016, 06:17:28 PM »
I'm with Iron on this one :>. I can wait, CO's doing decent(In-game only) at tiding me over :). TA is decent, but the nerfs..well, I know that BS wouldnt be pulled in CoH(post revival or Pre-shutdown) so it's even more incentive to wait :P
50's: Necro/Dark, Fire x3 Dom, Plant/Savage Dom, Ice/Time Blaster, Arch/TA Blaster, SS/Elec Brute, Rad/Rad Def.

Noyjitat

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • Guess who cares?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2016, 07:05:41 AM »
I think the op was basically saying to code an entirely new game with the same systems coh had and reuse all the art and models. In this manner you wouldn't be reverse engineering server code since you'd code your own server software and code a client to work with it.

Something that's more plausible than waiting 3 to 4 more years only to never legally get the game back. Which I'm beginning to think is the reality at this point...

TimtheEnchanter

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,466
  • There are some who call me... Tim?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2016, 02:54:03 PM »
Write to the Electronic Frontier Foundation. They're our best hope to making emulators legal. They've already had progress with giving an exemption to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act for abandoned video games that required an authentication server to run. "Abandoned" games can now legally be hacked so we can still play them after online servers have been shut down.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/11/new-dmca-ss1201-exemption-video-games-closer-look

The current wording of the exemption does not extend to online multiplayer capability. MMO's are a particularly important piece of human history now because they represent the formation of communities, and in some cases, literal virtual towns and cities, all built by players. MMO's demonstrate a groundbreaking shift in how human communities and societies grow and sustain themselves, and because of this extra 'living element,' MMO's are something that many of us have a far deeper personal connection to than other games. These games aren't just bits and bytes. These are worlds that were designed by artists who own a copyright, yes, but upon arrival, we molded and shaped those worlds to suit our needs and brought another layer of life to them. We made them our own, and they became a second home. The EFF needs to hear how important it is that the DMCA exception be expanded to online play. Unless I'm overlooking something, that's all that stands in the way of legally emulating an online CoH.

"As one of the proponents, I can definitively say that we were able to provide far more evidence of communities that wished to restore multiplayer access to games where servers had been deactivated than of single-player shutdowns."

They're aware of how critical it is that online communities have their homes back. But it never hurts to keep sending the message. And a couple of good stories about how the death of CoH or other MMO's has affected you personally, could be utilized in future negotiations. Keep the pressure on.

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2016, 07:45:27 PM »
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 10:04:39 PM by Doc Artz »
Doc Artz

ukaserex

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 500
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2016, 08:24:14 PM »
While this is all very nice and interesting, the real problem was stated by our resident problem solver, Codewalker.

Code may be written to create a compiler to compile code. And code might be written to produce new code. But - who's going to produce the code that will produce a chat server that co-exists along with all the other servers that made up CoH/V/GR?

Further - once you found someone that actually could do that - even if they had just done it yesterday - that effort would take a ton of time. People gotta eat. Food doesn't come free - you have to work for that, at least, most of us do.

So, um, yeah, I gotta say I agree with Codewalker - if you can find someone that can do it - knock yourselves out. I'll even contribute a bit financially. But, I'm fresh out of time, and it's been years since I called someone a Null Pointer Exception in an argument. I lack the code chops to to do such a thing.


All that said - I appreciate your desire to have the game back.
Those who have no idea what they are doing genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they're doing. - John Cleese

Noyjitat

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • Guess who cares?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2016, 11:01:33 PM »
I've said it before and I'll say it again: SWG

It has several emulators of pre nge, pre cu and now an nge server made from leaked source code; which is now spread all over the internet. The ip is owned by Disney of all people, the company that is famous for lawsuits and they haven't lifted a finger to shut down any of those servers. And those servers were built and coded by volunteers with donations and funding through paypal (which some will argue is profit)

I'm sorry, I've tried to remain positive all this time but the carrot on a stick isn't looking that appealing anymore and its hard to believe that it takes years for ncsoft to sale the game and complete this deal we've been waiting on.

It's going to take the same risks the swg community took to get our game back; now if only we can find someone that will take that risk.

TimtheEnchanter

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,466
  • There are some who call me... Tim?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2016, 12:22:50 AM »
It has several emulators of pre nge, pre cu and now an nge server made from leaked source code; which is now spread all over the internet. The ip is owned by Disney of all people, the company that is famous for lawsuits and they haven't lifted a finger to shut down any of those servers. And those servers were built and coded by volunteers with donations and funding through paypal (which some will argue is profit)

Even with the Mouse involved, NCsoft is STILL, sadly, worse in this regard.

Disney has always been very aggressive, but not in the same way. If nothing else, Disney understands what makes a fanbase tick. They go after uses of their properties that earn money. They don't crack down on fan pages. Also, Star Wars is an odd ball in the grand scheme. Say what you want about George Lucas's shortcomings, but one very positive thing about him is he encouraged creativity as much as he could without ripping himself off. As far as he's concerned, do whatever the heck you want with the Star Wars IP, just don't sell what you create. He even went as far as hosting a contest every year for creators of Star Wars fanfilms. At least for now, Disney seems to be respecting the spirit of the fandom that Lucas promoted.

We have the misfortune of CoH being owned by what is probably the most paranoid and aggressive copyright enforcer in the world of gaming. World of Warcraft is still running and there are private servers that Blizzard isn't taking down. Independent servers of EA games exist. EA, which is hailed as the grand daddy of all evil gaming corporations, doesn't go after independent servers. SWG emulators for CU and pre-CU began springing up before the game shutdown and SOE did nothing. NCsoft has shutdown any emulation servers for any of their games, whether they're abandoned or not, and they are quite zealous about it.

Noyjitat

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • Guess who cares?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2016, 12:59:19 AM »
It's either risk a server getting taken down or continue to hope ncsoft cares to make a deal and I'm sure I'm not the only one that sees a carrot on a stick that has begun to wither away.

Surelle

  • Guest
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2016, 08:38:26 PM »
I think that those who want a CoH emu should go right on ahead and make one, end of story.  You won't be so pushy about it once YOU are the one who has to kiss your whole life goodbye for however-many years to make it happen.  It's all too easy to give the shirt off someone else's back.

SWG (pre-NGE) emu has been running for what, 12-15 years now, and it's still a major disaster area.  Emus are a lifelong pursuit for a half-baked, crumbling, messed up ball of flame that has C & Ds hanging over its head besides.  I very seriously doubt any of you crying for a CoH emu would be even remotely happy with one if it was ever really made.  It would also likely not be ready for a server launch for another ten years, even if it had a dedicated team who had major rent and food money magically dropping from the skies onto them whenever they worked on it.

Look how many real-live Kickstarter MMOs go belly up!  And they have relatively major funding compared to what you are demanding.

Please get real here.

hurple

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 595
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2016, 08:42:12 PM »
I think that those who want a CoH emu should go right on ahead and make one, end of story.  You won't be so pushy about it once YOU are the one who has to kiss your whole life goodbye for however-many years to make it happen.  It's all too easy to give the shirt off someone else's back.

SWG (pre-NGE) emu has been running for what, 12-15 years now, and it's still a major disaster area.  Emus are a lifelong pursuit for a half-baked, crumbling, messed up ball of flame that has C & Ds hanging over its head besides.  I very seriously doubt any of you crying for a CoH emu would be even remotely happy with one if it was ever really made.  It would also likely not be ready for a server launch for another ten years, even if it had a dedicated team who had major rent and food money magically dropping from the skies onto them whenever they worked on it.

Look how many real-live Kickstarter MMOs go belly up!  And they have relatively major funding compared to what you are demanding.

Please get real here.

Easy to say for someone who just got their ass kicked by Batman (snicker). 


Noyjitat

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • Guess who cares?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2016, 10:20:12 PM »
I think that those who want a CoH emu should go right on ahead and make one, end of story.  You won't be so pushy about it once YOU are the one who has to kiss your whole life goodbye for however-many years to make it happen.  It's all too easy to give the shirt off someone else's back.

SWG (pre-NGE) emu has been running for what, 12-15 years now, and it's still a major disaster area.  Emus are a lifelong pursuit for a half-baked, crumbling, messed up ball of flame that has C & Ds hanging over its head besides.  I very seriously doubt any of you crying for a CoH emu would be even remotely happy with one if it was ever really made.  It would also likely not be ready for a server launch for another ten years, even if it had a dedicated team who had major rent and food money magically dropping from the skies onto them whenever they worked on it.

Look how many real-live Kickstarter MMOs go belly up!  And they have relatively major funding compared to what you are demanding.

Please get real here.
Emulators don't get sued unless they become big and charge for features like some of wow's emulators did. It isn't worth company time and resources to tie it up in court so often a c&d is sent and then the project will go into hiding only to resurface under a different name and then they continue where they left off.

Also yes most of us would be happy with combat, missions and npcs to kill even with stability issues. I'm playing swglegends right now which is everything up to the last few game publishes of the live server and I'm having lots of fun there. no lag, and everything works minus parts of the chat system (which is being coded and fixed at this moment) The big battle we face is fixing some stability issues and they've done a good job with that thus far. All volunteers and donations via paypal. There's also projectswg which is being coded from the ground up also by volunteers and paypal donations and that looks like it will be complete in about two years at it's current pace.

Perhaps if we're still at this same point at this same time next year, without a game or under some "nda" or whatever carrot on a stick ncsoft is giving us. Someone out there will put a team together and start the project.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 10:27:06 PM by Noyjitat »

chuckv3

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 362
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2016, 01:07:45 AM »
I think that those who want a CoH emu should go right on ahead and make one, end of story.  You won't be so pushy about it once YOU are the one who has to kiss your whole life goodbye for however-many years to make it happen.  It's all too easy to give the shirt off someone else's back.

SWG (pre-NGE) emu has been running for what, 12-15 years now, and it's still a major disaster area.  Emus are a lifelong pursuit for a half-baked, crumbling, messed up ball of flame that has C & Ds hanging over its head besides.  I very seriously doubt any of you crying for a CoH emu would be even remotely happy with one if it was ever really made.  It would also likely not be ready for a server launch for another ten years, even if it had a dedicated team who had major rent and food money magically dropping from the skies onto them whenever they worked on it.

Look how many real-live Kickstarter MMOs go belly up!  And they have relatively major funding compared to what you are demanding.

Please get real here.

100% agreed.

Inc42

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2016, 06:27:30 PM »

Noyjitat

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • Guess who cares?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2016, 11:09:27 PM »
Yeah... we know it's going to be hard. But it has a higher chance of success than any deal with ncsoft ever will have. And if you really want the game back you shouldn't fear monger those that may have the skills to actually code the game and get it back in our hands; nor should you put all your eggs into one basket. Try everything possible to get the game back and more. But I digress, let's see if we get a real update by this same time next year that amounts to more than the results of a chess match with ncsoft i.e. a stalemated checkmate and another nda.

Inc42

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2016, 02:22:16 PM »
We are in a time right now where we are watching people's lives be ruined by copyright claims. This is a major topic right now, these past few months, not just in the world of game emulators, but all over the internet. The recent major abuse of the copyright claim system on YouTube, especially by gaming companies, has brought this issue into the light. Talking about this is NOT fear mongering. This is pointing out to the people demanding emulators what the people capable of even beginning such a project already know, and explaining some of the problems with the "Just rebuild it" attitude.

Here's the deal. Ever since the announcement of the shut down there have been threads here, on the CoH boards before they were closed, Reddit, and probably plenty of other places where every few months (or days in the beginning) someone has the brilliant idea of "just make an emulator", just like this thread. People inevitably chime in that "yeah, just do it, it should be easy", and others try to explain the many reasons why it is not that simple. Mostly because no one has the game code besides NCSoft, and it would be designing a full game from scratch (which IS happening, go check out the Atlas Revival Project).

No one who has ever suggested that someone should just "do it" has any of the necessary skills to do it themselves. The people who DID have that kind of skill either did not have the time/interest to do it (or you would probably be hearing something by now) or joined one of the successor projects. I'm sure individuals or small teams tried back when the shutdown was announced, only to realize the obvious, that a game that was in development for 3 years before launch by a large team of skilled developers, and then received regular updates the entire time it was running, cannot be duplicated by one or two people. The amount of work in just rebuilding the various zones would take one or two people months/years of full time, unpaid work. Then there's powers. Then there's animations. Player models, enemy models, player stats, enemy stats, AI behavior, costumes, server hosting, file distribution, and a million and a half backend things that we who don't program video games would probably never know about.

The "fear mongering" is not what is preventing anything, it is just a new and currently very relevant problem, so that is why people decided to bring it up rather than spelling out the same old things for the millionth time. The fact is that we KNOW NCSoft would do everything they could to shut the servers down, to sue anyone who even tried to break even on the cost of development into bankruptcy, and from a player perspective the best we could hope for is the code is given to someone else to host for a while before they are shut down and sued, and so on, so we can start from scratch every few months.

But since historical reference to similar cases means nothing and the rest of us are clearly worried about nothing, why dont some of you who think it's so easy just go ahead and do it? I'll play healer when you get the game back online  8)

Surelle

  • Guest
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2016, 09:31:15 PM »
We are in a time right now where we are watching people's lives be ruined by copyright claims. This is a major topic right now, these past few months, not just in the world of game emulators, but all over the internet. The recent major abuse of the copyright claim system on YouTube, especially by gaming companies, has brought this issue into the light. Talking about this is NOT fear mongering. This is pointing out to the people demanding emulators what the people capable of even beginning such a project already know, and explaining some of the problems with the "Just rebuild it" attitude.

Here's the deal. Ever since the announcement of the shut down there have been threads here, on the CoH boards before they were closed, Reddit, and probably plenty of other places where every few months (or days in the beginning) someone has the brilliant idea of "just make an emulator", just like this thread. People inevitably chime in that "yeah, just do it, it should be easy", and others try to explain the many reasons why it is not that simple. Mostly because no one has the game code besides NCSoft, and it would be designing a full game from scratch (which IS happening, go check out the Atlas Revival Project).

No one who has ever suggested that someone should just "do it" has any of the necessary skills to do it themselves. The people who DID have that kind of skill either did not have the time/interest to do it (or you would probably be hearing something by now) or joined one of the successor projects. I'm sure individuals or small teams tried back when the shutdown was announced, only to realize the obvious, that a game that was in development for 3 years before launch by a large team of skilled developers, and then received regular updates the entire time it was running, cannot be duplicated by one or two people. The amount of work in just rebuilding the various zones would take one or two people months/years of full time, unpaid work. Then there's powers. Then there's animations. Player models, enemy models, player stats, enemy stats, AI behavior, costumes, server hosting, file distribution, and a million and a half backend things that we who don't program video games would probably never know about.

The "fear mongering" is not what is preventing anything, it is just a new and currently very relevant problem, so that is why people decided to bring it up rather than spelling out the same old things for the millionth time. The fact is that we KNOW NCSoft would do everything they could to shut the servers down, to sue anyone who even tried to break even on the cost of development into bankruptcy, and from a player perspective the best we could hope for is the code is given to someone else to host for a while before they are shut down and sued, and so on, so we can start from scratch every few months.

But since historical reference to similar cases means nothing and the rest of us are clearly worried about nothing, why dont some of you who think it's so easy just go ahead and do it? I'll play healer when you get the game back online  8)

Exactly this.  Especially the "why dont some of you who think it's so easy just go ahead and do it? I'll play healer when you get the game back online" part, except I'll tank.   ;)

Soul Resonance

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 159
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2016, 09:37:47 PM »
I agree with the above. I mean, you'll basically be doing the same thing as THeM, getting the ok from NC so your server and game won't be completely shutdown, it'll take the same amount(or not at all since you started illegally and they may not be willing to deal with you :P) of time to get the IP to be in the clear, then engine stuff etc etc. And be prepared to have people chompin' at the bits to get every snippet of info on the current progress of well...everything :P. Hope you got those NDAs ready  8)
50's: Necro/Dark, Fire x3 Dom, Plant/Savage Dom, Ice/Time Blaster, Arch/TA Blaster, SS/Elec Brute, Rad/Rad Def.

CptDraco

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2016, 06:35:25 AM »
Quote
Why did you wait so long to file after allowing  others to use your allegedly abandoned software?


I just have to ask because something like this was mentioned in the OP and several times after in this topic. When did NCSoft allow someone to use any part of CoH?

Stealth Dart

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 110
  • Martial Artists kick butt with style
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2016, 07:49:13 AM »
Most likely they are alluding to Icon.  This allows you to enter the character creator and make a character that can then "zone in"...but there are no mobs, no powers, no missions and you are basically alone.  Then there is Paragon Chat which allows you to go in to the character creator and make a character that can then "zone in"...and chat, and role-play with other players.  You have basic movement powers plus emotes but once again no mobs, no combat powers or missions as this was all handled on the NCSoft servers which have long since shut down.  Basically Icon and Paragon Chat use the Client side exclusively.  Which is why NCSoft has not bothered with a cease and desist order.
I am a dancer, a leaf in the wind...a leaf that can kick your Butt!

Tahquitz

  • Titan Staff
  • Elite Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,858
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2016, 11:14:48 PM »
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2016, 01:14:22 AM »
Based on what I've read, Paramount is the Star Trek copyright holder that's getting angry, rather than CBS. And mostly because of Beyond coming out.
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Noyjitat

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • Guess who cares?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2016, 01:15:18 AM »
That was a server with over 10000 players. Those and servers selling ingame items for real $ are the ONLY servers blizzard ever targets.

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2016, 10:05:22 PM »
Doc Artz

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2016, 10:27:32 PM »
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2016, 01:41:57 AM »
1. "Our?" Us who? What "we" are you referring to?....."The presence of a C&D implies,"
You're correct with one phrase, The presence of a C&D implies. It's at said implication we gracefully bow out and continue moving in the current direction.
"We" simple refers to those of us who have donated financially, "who" have hope our game will  return, and "ALL" are those who believe there is a chance to bring back the game many of us spent money to play. PayPal  is, as all well know, those who would help games, Amazon, eBay and many other  customers pay for goods and services. PayPal was with COH for some time. I sort of thought that concept of finding financing while developing would have  been obvious.  :roll:
---------------
As for me,  I've began writing a Task Force (TF) concerning the ancient Greek City State. It'll be two part with the
conclusion a much more difficult challenge. The next phase of the TF would be to  join the Greecian Army in an attempt to concur the City of Troy. It's obviously a work in progress complete with maps, original contacts, in game contacts, and several surprises in each phase of the TF. If the idea is not well received or others opinions and/or suggestions  aren't forth coming, the delete button is but a motion a way.
 8)

« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 03:04:20 PM by Doc Artz »
Doc Artz

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2016, 02:28:35 AM »
When you say "donated financially".... do you mean paying for CoH while it was live? Because, since you say we shouldn't care about the successors, there's nothing else to fund. Sure, the Titan Network has a donate button, but that's for the Titan Network, not for bringing CoH back.

Regarding PayPal, your wording made it seem like they would invest directly in bringing CoH back. But yeah, I suppose it could be used as a method for people to pay for a revival of CoH... but no one's going to be charging for that, since it most certainly would bring NCsoft's legal team down on the server.
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

slickriptide

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 356
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2016, 02:06:42 PM »
It's very easy to say "we" should make an emulator already when you really mean "someone who is not me should step up and do all the work and assume all of the risk while they let me play on it".

Why not say, "I bet NCSoft will do nothing and who cares about their C&D's anyway?" when it's the other guy who has to deal with the consequences?

The tolerance level of other companies is irrelevant. People who bring up EA and Earth & Beyond either forget or never knew that EA never gave a smeg about E&B when it was alive. They bought Westwood Studios and E&B was just something that came along.

NCSoft has a history of shutting down emulators on principle. There's every reason to believe that once they find out about an emulator, they'll take action without even learning any more about it than the fact of its existence.

That's why people with the skills and knowledge to make an emulator have chosen to pursue other projects instead. Hand-waving by armchair attorneys with degrees frim Google notwithstanding.

Tahquitz

  • Titan Staff
  • Elite Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,858
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2016, 11:28:25 PM »
I think we all can agree that NCsoft is NOT CBS, Disney, Blizzard, or even why should we care...

Then I wish you the best of luck retreading what everyone has already discussed countless times in the last three years.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 01:09:22 AM by Tahquitz »
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2016, 07:25:14 PM »
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 01:00:28 AM by Doc Artz »
Doc Artz

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2016, 01:28:55 AM »
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 01:34:27 AM by Doc Artz »
Doc Artz

Surelle

  • Guest
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2017, 04:48:20 PM »
Tabula Rasa was also abandoned. NCsoft hit them with a Cease & Desist order regardless. We know what they would do, because they've already done it.

Hey, I googled Infinite Rasa the other day, and as of late last fall and early 2017, work is being done on it again.  I don't play on emus, but I thought that was interesting.  Ya can't keep a good team down!

downix

  • Phoenix Project Technical Lead
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,962
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2017, 04:20:06 PM »
I was under the impression that the successors (other than Atlas Park Revival) had turned down that option, as they have already invested a lot of time into creating their own IP. I thought the IP was so that CoH 2 could be made, or so that other media (other types of games, books, etc.) could be used.
I know this is old but I hadn't seen it.

For the record, CoT is not against integrating the CoH lore were it to become available. Of course the devil is in the details.

downix

  • Phoenix Project Technical Lead
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,962
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2017, 04:22:42 PM »
Look at Deadpool (Marvel) and Deathstroke (DC). Deadpool was clearly based on Deathstroke, from his fighting style, healing powers, elements of his costume, even down to real name (Wade Wilson vs Slade Wilson). This is pretty damn close to copyright infringement, but there are enough differences to keep it from being so, therefore it is legal. If people wanted to make games LIKE CoH, but NOT CoH, they could. This is the same kind of thing you are talking about with Samsung vs Apple
If you are seeking this, we have that already, a few of them in fact, under development:

City of Titans
Heroes and Villains
Valiance Online
Ship of Heroes

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2018, 07:53:29 PM »
Doc Artz

Sakura Tenshi

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2018, 07:10:19 AM »
Not to say I agree with him entirely, but just what all are we missing exactly serverside? I mean we get a lot of info just from what we have client side but I am sure there's a lot of hidden bits and pieces. As a side note: I'd kill for icon to just turn various powers into some kind of emote triggers so we can 'use our powers' even if it all it does is play the animations.

that said, I'm gonna do my usual and step into fantasy realm: I think if I had the time, the resources, and talent to rebuild City of Heroes... I'd keep it a kind of secret club private server. Not because I fear NCsoft's legal action, but because i'd probably change a lot of things that probably wouldn't be popular with folks. Things like changing city zones, instanced mission maps, and old story content up by... A lot. Rolling back the story to before statesman's death, possibly cut down on several blueside zones to instead focus on a well-developed version of individual zones with their own art styles. Changes to various powers (goodbye Oni pet, hello;, Kunoichi. Also: say hello to alternative power selections.) and leveling (more slots, more powers, more ways to be borken), change or alter the story in several places, alter enemy level lists and powers, blatantly insert several points related to my old RP group into the game (Carnival of light camp in Founders, the CCCP base in Kings Row, RPC mission contacts and special taskforces)

I think the only thing no one would complain about would be more costume options and more AE options.

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2018, 07:17:39 AM »
As a side note: I'd kill for icon to just turn various powers into some kind of emote triggers so we can 'use our powers' even if it all it does is play the animations.

I think one of these threads may be what you're looking for:

https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=12106.msg208795

https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=12133.msg213694

I don't really understand the full mechanics, but I guess the game auto shoots powers (once you figure out how to get *those* working) at wherever 0,0,0 coordinates are on the map, and the first one fixes that. The second one is way more than just animations, but that's part of it (I think).
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

primeknight

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 114
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2018, 01:09:28 AM »
Not to say I agree with him entirely, but just what all are we missing exactly serverside? I mean we get a lot of info just from what we have client side but I am sure there's a lot of hidden bits and pieces. As a side note: I'd kill for icon to just turn various powers into some kind of emote triggers so we can 'use our powers' even if it all it does is play the animations.

that said, I'm gonna do my usual and step into fantasy realm: I think if I had the time, the resources, and talent to rebuild City of Heroes... I'd keep it a kind of secret club private server. Not because I fear NCsoft's legal action, but because i'd probably change a lot of things that probably wouldn't be popular with folks. Things like changing city zones, instanced mission maps, and old story content up by... A lot. Rolling back the story to before statesman's death, possibly cut down on several blueside zones to instead focus on a well-developed version of individual zones with their own art styles. Changes to various powers (goodbye Oni pet, hello;, Kunoichi. Also: say hello to alternative power selections.) and leveling (more slots, more powers, more ways to be borken), change or alter the story in several places, alter enemy level lists and powers, blatantly insert several points related to my old RP group into the game (Carnival of light camp in Founders, the CCCP base in Kings Row, RPC mission contacts and special taskforces)

I think the only thing no one would complain about would be more costume options and more AE options.

I've wondered how much NCSoft was ok with the symbol of City of Heroes being permanently killed off and how Paragon Studio was so adamant to keep it that way.

When I heard about that, that was the straw that got me to stop paying for a subscription, after not playing for probably 6 months.  I wanted to support the game even if I didn't have time to play.  Then literally the next month after I stopped paying, the studio was shut down and the game went into sunset. 

I played those last 3 months every day, although a little sore from the lack of Statesman and no way to access my incarnate powers.

While I think in general, Paragon Studios was wonderful in so many ways and made the game great I think they people had their flaws too.  I have a feeling that they got bored of the world they created and felt the overwhelming need to change things up: like Statesman, Sister Psych, and Galaxy City.  And those 3 things, I felt, were going too far.   

I heard that any possible sale of the IP would require the new owner from disallowing some of Paragon Studios from being apart of the resurrected game. 

Although to get back on topic:
Please can I play my Mind/Kin again, and maybe my Claws/SR...and maybe 5 to 10 others, or 20 or all?  Please?  And without having to start over from level 1.  I won't let my subscription lapse again.  Please?

Sakura Tenshi

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2018, 04:38:33 AM »
While I think in general, Paragon Studios was wonderful in so many ways and made the game great I think they people had their flaws too.  I have a feeling that they got bored of the world they created and felt the overwhelming need to change things up: like Statesman, Sister Psych, and Galaxy City.  And those 3 things, I felt, were going too far.   

Gonna be honest, I'd probably still kill off statesman or at least move him out of the spotlight, but I'd want to roll things back so we got more chance to know the guy better, and make it hurt that much more when he finally kicks it. I'd try to make it so he doesn't die walking into an obvious trap. Actually, I'd probably even let him live and just be depowered by Darrin Wade, from then on Statesman tries to lead as a normal human using his old soldiering skills. And ultimately dying facing down Incarnate Empowered Praetorians in a badass last stand worthy of Cu Chulainn and successfully hold the line.

Also probably change his powersets (along with those of other key NPCs) to something like a shield defense (because of his idealizing of the Greek Phalanxes, and for the 'oh, crap!' player villains might feel when Statesman shield charges into the party and starts tearing into folks) and Willpower (differentiating him from his invul focused counterparts and showing Statesman's maintained on the side of good despite countless temptations through a strength of will), and throw on some more electrical powers stronger zeus connections.

Uh, that said, I understand why Paragon Studios wanted change things up, some things they did right, others could have been better.

I mean I would have loved for Galaxy city to have been revamped into Art Googie style, but that wasn't gonna be practical.

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2018, 12:51:36 AM »
Doc Artz

Tahquitz

  • Titan Staff
  • Elite Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,858
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2018, 04:55:36 AM »
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 05:16:52 AM by Tahquitz »
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Doc Artz

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Infinity, SG leader of The Moon Dragons
    • Behance
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2018, 12:19:06 AM »
Doc Artz

MyriVerse

  • Prom King 2017
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 515
Re: rebuild COH
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2018, 06:13:39 PM »
I don't think the Carbine sitch is anything like the CoH sitch.
aka Majadi | Sugar Cane | Absinthe | Killer Antz | Bogatyra | ...
Best Video Game of 2016 -- Paragon Chat!!!
Codewalker for Mayor of Paragon!