Author Topic: Technical discussion of bases  (Read 49631 times)

Codewalker

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2016, 01:13:57 PM »
If we are at some point in the future able to load our bases into Paragon Chat from a demo-record file, then will other players be able to enter the base and walk around in it as well, or will the base(s) be just a sort of solo-instance?

The plan is for other people to be able walk around in it (there is a sticky in the Development section with a feature roadmap).

Right now the work in progress prototype is solo only. What's undecided is if a refined version of that will go into a release build at some point, or if we'll wait until the tech to synchronize the base with other players is finished. I can see a case for it - to give people a chance to work on building their bases even before other people can visit them.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2016, 03:47:19 PM »
What about manual sharing of the base datafile in the mean time?

saipaman

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2016, 05:00:19 PM »
You could easily record a demo of your new base and then share it with someone else.   That person would then use the demo load command to pull into into PC.

War-Base

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2016, 05:30:14 PM »
The plan is for other people to be able walk around in it (there is a sticky in the Development section with a feature roadmap).

Right now the work in progress prototype is solo only. What's undecided is if a refined version of that will go into a release build at some point, or if we'll wait until the tech to synchronize the base with other players is finished. I can see a case for it - to give people a chance to work on building their bases even before other people can visit them.

Some of us actually worked on bases for several months before they were "ready" to show others, so a little lead time to work on them before we started tours might be a really nice thing...   The only thing I loved more than editing my bases was to visit other people's creations (ironically, I almost never gave tours of my own stuff - I guess I am more of a voyeur than an exhibitionist).  I think it would produce the best results if everyone had the chance to get all their work fixed up to just how they wanted it shown before tours were even possible, so there aren't any feelings of being rushed or pressured.

Then again, I am probably quite biased and simply might just be impatient to get at the editor again...

Which brings up an interesting thought... I've been dusting off my base demos in anticipation of being able to work on them again, and noticed that I have demos of several people's bases that were not my own (I took a LOT of base tours). I know I always got permission from the owner before I made any recordings of their work, but that was at a point in time when we couldn't do anything but watch the recordings...

You guys mentioned the ability to import demos into the PC version of the base editor, so am I right in assuming I could then technically import someone else's base and modify it if I had a recording of it?  Going a step further... if touring bases becomes possible in PC, would others visiting your base then be able to make a demo of it while on tour, and then be able to later go on to edit up their own version of your base? 

Not sure if that would be an amazing feature, or a scary one...

I have no knowledge of the technical side of how the program works, so this is probably a stupid question, but, theoretically, COULD it be possible to prevent people from making demos while on a base tour? Or is the ability to record demos at any point something that isn't a toggle type option?  I'm not suggesting it should be a feature, or anything like that.. I was just curious if it was possible to lock up the demorecord ability of the client software for certain situations or instances.  Like, for example, could it be set up so that demorecording wasn't possible while zoned into Pocket D, but would work just fine in any other zone?

Anyway, I do thank you all for your efforts, and impatiently await the day I can stack desks and rotate bookshelves for hours on end, again...

-War Base-


FloatingFatMan

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2016, 06:33:36 PM »
What's undecided is if a refined version of that will go into a release build at some point

Please do this! Be great to get started on some designs...

If we share the base file manually, can other people enter or are they literally solo only atm?

War-Base

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2016, 07:01:46 PM »
Hey WB! Long time no see.

:)

Hiya Dare!  It has indeed been a long time!

In fact, if I recall correctly (but that is always questionable)... I think I was even trying to hunt you down for a while, maybe about 5 or so years ago, trying to get a tour of your entry in the PERC Disaster Base contest...  That is how long it has been...

I hope you have a demo of it, so that I can eventually get that tour...  Better late than never! :)

But it is indeed good to see some of the old great base builders, like you, and the rabbit, hanging around in here... 

Random, only semi-realated question, but do you know how to get in contact with Madame Pistacio by any chance? 

I think I still owe her a base, (or more specifically, a room designed in one of her bases) and now, may soon be able to finally pay up on that debt - if I can track her down, and get her to join PC...

-WarBase-
He who always tries to pay his debts... eventually

Ulysses Dare

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2016, 07:08:20 PM »
I hope you have a demo of it, so that I can eventually get that tour...  Better late than never! :)
I just checked my demo files and sadly it appears I don't. I saved my Bases on a Budget base but not the Disaster Base apparently.

Random, only semi-realated question, but do you know how to get in contact with Madame Pistacio by any chance? 
Sorry I haven't had any contact with Madame P since the shut down.

Codewalker

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2016, 01:24:21 AM »
Please do this! Be great to get started on some designs...

That's probably what's going to happen unless by some miracle finishing the pubsub stuff takes the same amount of time as fixing the remaining problems with the editor.

If we share the base file manually, can other people enter or are they literally solo only atm?

They're literally solo-only at this point. A lot of the XMPP synchronization is incompatible with the way base maps are loaded and needs redesigning to remove some of the assumptions about static zones that were necessary to get Paragon Chat out the door in the first place. The simplest way to resolve that was to split some of the code out into modular backends that can be swapped out. The base editor prototype was implemented in the "Local" backend first (which is also used for offline mode). That backend doesn't know how to synchronize with anyone over XMPP.

Once the underlying issues are fixed, which is also a prerequisite for private instance support, it will be ported to the XMPP backend.

Codewalker

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2016, 01:34:52 AM »
You guys mentioned the ability to import demos into the PC version of the base editor, so am I right in assuming I could then technically import someone else's base and modify it if I had a recording of it?  Going a step further... if touring bases becomes possible in PC, would others visiting your base then be able to make a demo of it while on tour, and then be able to later go on to edit up their own version of your base?

Yes, the base has to be transmitted in full even to visit the base, just because of how the system was originally designed. Which makes sense, as even normal zone maps can and have been modded - one if these is so awesome I'm planning on including it with the official distribution once PC grows a more sophisticated patcher.

I have no knowledge of the technical side of how the program works, so this is probably a stupid question, but, theoretically, COULD it be possible to prevent people from making demos while on a base tour? Or is the ability to record demos at any point something that isn't a toggle type option?  I'm not suggesting it should be a feature, or anything like that.. I was just curious if it was possible to lock up the demorecord ability of the client software for certain situations or instances.  Like, for example, could it be set up so that demorecording wasn't possible while zoned into Pocket D, but would work just fine in any other zone?

It might be possible to lock out the command when a certain flag is set via client modifications. However, it would effectively be a voluntary system; when sending the base the flag would ask other Paragon Chat instances to kindly disable demorecording if they please.

As with anything clientside, that can be subverted. I can think of several ways off the top of my head: using a stock Issue 24 client instead of letting Paragon Chat launch the modded one, swiping the data from memory, enabling clientside accesslevel via a simple memory switch (could be done with Cheat Engine without needing sophisticated knowledge) and using the clientsave command, or even swiping it from the XMPP stream via packet capture or the debug flag.

The rule of thumb with digital data is that if you can see it, you can copy it. Trying to block that ability usually just leads to an arms race that is impossible to win.

Anyway, I do thank you all for your efforts, and impatiently await the day I can stack desks and rotate bookshelves for hours on end, again...

If you're really interested, you could join the prerelease testing program and see for yourself. It's open to anyone who wants to be a part of it. While there are still some caveats and limitations, the editor is already mostly functional at this point.

War-Base

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #89 on: August 23, 2016, 03:26:04 AM »
I just checked my demo files and sadly it appears I don't. I saved my Bases on a Budget base but not the Disaster Base apparently.

Well, I would love to tour that base at some point if you are willing to showcase it!  In the future of course, if/when that option becomes available to us...

Plus, I would love to see any other bases you would be willing to show.  I've been suffering from some serious base tour withdrawal for years now.

Yes, that is a thing.  Just because I am probably the only one in the world with symptoms, doesn't mean it isn't real...

:)

-WarBase-
He who will tour any base, any time, for any reason!

Arcana

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #90 on: August 23, 2016, 03:55:06 AM »
Well, I would love to tour that base at some point if you are willing to showcase it!  In the future of course, if/when that option becomes available to us...

Technically speaking, anyone can share their base(s) with anyone else if they a) demorecorded it and b) are willing to share the demorecord file.  It is specifically because this was a possibility due to the camera free flight mode that I started posting everywhere I could for people to demorecord their bases before shutdown.  If you playback a demorecord that was recorded within a base and then activate free flight mode, you can tour any part of the base without regard to how the demorecord was originally recorded.  In fact, you could have just stood in one place and did a ten second demorecord and that would be enough to wander around the entire base today.

Until the feature arrives in Paragon Chat, these would, of course, be solo excursions.

War-Base

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #91 on: August 23, 2016, 04:40:15 AM »

If you're really interested, you could join the prerelease testing program and see for yourself. It's open to anyone who wants to be a part of it. While there are still some caveats and limitations, the editor is already mostly functional at this point.

Believe me, I have thought about it, long and hard.  I was ready to beg, bribe, and even offer my first born for a chance to work with an even barely functional base editor again, let alone a mostly functional one...

But sadly, my time is very limited these days.  I wouldn't be able to do a proper job of helping with the testing right now, and all I would really be doing is looking for "early access to new shineys", as you put it somewhere (sorry, I remember the quote, but not where I saw it exactly), and that wouldn't be right in my book.  I have done a lot of Beta Testing of games (in fact, I was one of the BTers for CoH) and when I commit to something like that, I take it quite seriously.  And I simply can't do it properly right now.

Plus, I used to sometimes spend series of 18 to 20 hour sessions editing bases.  If I could suddenly edit bases again right now, especially after the years of withdrawal, I would probably stop sleeping and miss several days of work... Non-good things would soon follow for me.  I don't think I would take well to homelessness and no internets...

It is tempting, (you really can't even begin to understand how much so), but for now, I must stay away.  For my own good, and my sense of integrity.

If there is any other less time-consuming way I can help, please let me know. I am pretty sure I worked on and owned more bases than just about anyone else in the game (every toon, on every server, on three accounts was in a different SG, and I was the base editor or owner for all of them, and that isn't counting the nearly 200 or so bases I built, sold, traded, or was hired to make for others).  Yes, I actually paid monthly for multiple accounts just so I could have more bases. I am not bragging.  I am unwell, and probably need professional help. But I digress... where was I?  Oh yeah, helping out...

For example, if you want to stress test the editor you are working on, I can send you a demo of one of my bases that used to really strain the in-game editor, so much so I never got to finish it.  Or if you want suggestions, I think I still have copies of some of the multi-page suggestion posts and messages I used to send the devs regarding improvements, issues, and simple QoL changes that they could make to the editor.  I even suggested ways they could monetize the base editing system.  And mostly they were practical suggestions, things like interface changes, displaying X,Y,Z and rotation degree numbers - not just the standard "we need moving NPCs, running water, ICON and market interface stations" most basers in the suggestion forums would make.  Though I'm not a programmer, I think I know the difference between realistic helpful suggestions, and "would be nice", "not worth the effort", and "probably never going to happen" suggestions.  I'm sure a lot of the points I made in the past are beyond the scope of your project - I think you are seeking to make editing simply work as a priority, not change things to fill wish lists - but there may be a few nuggets of helpfulness in there. If I can find them, of course.  You guys could probably re-write the entire editor from scratch before I could find any specific copy of a base suggestion post written years ago, tucked away in nearly 2 TBs of poorly labeled text files.  Besides being unwell, I am poorly organized...  But I am digressing again...

I may have some time to be of proper, more direct help in mid/late September. With my luck, by the time I have a chance to help, it will be too late and you will have already finished your work on it. But I will always be willing to help in any way I can with the time I can spare...

-WarBase-
He who likes playing with early shineys... but must also live with his (stupidly honest) conscience... 

War-Base

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #92 on: August 23, 2016, 05:07:43 AM »
Technically speaking, anyone can share their base(s) with anyone else if they a) demorecorded it and b) are willing to share the demorecord file.  It is specifically because this was a possibility due to the camera free flight mode that I started posting everywhere I could for people to demorecord their bases before shutdown.  If you playback a demorecord that was recorded within a base and then activate free flight mode, you can tour any part of the base without regard to how the demorecord was originally recorded.  In fact, you could have just stood in one place and did a ten second demorecord and that would be enough to wander around the entire base today.

Until the feature arrives in Paragon Chat, these would, of course, be solo excursions.
By the way, I don't think I ever got to properly thank you for that advice...

Thank you!

Before the end, I did in fact make demos of all my bases, plus several others that I really loved (shout-out to Mr. Wentworth and his Country Club base!), with the owner's permission of course..

However, I must disagree with you...

In my humble opinion, solo flights through someone else's work, while interesting, is not really a "tour".  I have played back demos of others bases, and in fact, it  sort of makes me feel "creepy"...  Kind of like you are breaking into someone's house while they are away on vacation and looking at all their stuff.

Yes, I fully admit, I am weird and need help...

A proper base tour (and I have taken literally hundreds of them) involves the base maker guiding you through their work, highlighting certain things they are proud of, pointing out things you might have missed, and conveying a sense of pride in their accomplishment, especially when another baser recognises the time it took or the creativity needed to make a certain piece or room.  The chatting, and stories, and questions and suggestions are a huge part of the process, perhaps even the most important part.  But maybe that is just me...  In any case, I would far rather have someone like Dare walk me through their base and point things out, than to just simply "see" it.  If I recall correctly, there is even a YouTube video of it out there somewhere (one of the PERC contest entry videos), so anyone can see it even without the demo file. But that isn't a real base tour.  Not even close...

I think a base tour is like sex... sure, you can do it alone, but it is a much more gratifying experience when others are with you...

-WarBase-
He who needs to stop seeking porn that involves the option to "upgrade plot size" or "place personal object"...

Ulysses Dare

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #93 on: August 23, 2016, 06:59:43 AM »

Codewalker

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #94 on: August 23, 2016, 12:57:46 PM »
Plus, I used to sometimes spend series of 18 to 20 hour sessions editing bases.  If I could suddenly edit bases again right now, especially after the years of withdrawal, I would probably stop sleeping and miss several days of work... Non-good things would soon follow for me.  I don't think I would take well to homelessness and no internets...

That's cool, I get it. I'm quite familiar with how much of a time sink base building can be, and if you think jumping back into that would be unhealthy for you, then you're doing the right thing by staying away.

Do you want a heads up or anything when we're getting close to the public release? In case you want to plan to take a forum vacation for a while right before that, just so you don't get sucked in and have it interfere with real life?

Or if you want suggestions, I think I still have copies of some of the multi-page suggestion posts and messages I used to send the devs regarding improvements, issues, and simple QoL changes that they could make to the editor.

I already have a laundry list of ideas, but yeah, right now the priority is just to get the thing fully functional.

Things are quite a bit different now due to the way that Paragon Chat works, though. Ironically, things like NPCs in bases are an order of magnitude easier to do than anything involving a UI change.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 03:33:30 PM by Codewalker »

War-Base

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #95 on: August 24, 2016, 06:41:26 AM »

War-Base

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #96 on: August 24, 2016, 07:13:59 AM »
That's cool, I get it. I'm quite familiar with how much of a time sink base building can be, and if you think jumping back into that would be unhealthy for you, then you're doing the right thing by staying away.

Do you want a heads up or anything when we're getting close to the public release? In case you want to plan to take a forum vacation for a while right before that, just so you don't get sucked in and have it interfere with real life?

I already have a laundry list of ideas, but yeah, right now the priority is just to get the thing fully functional.

Things are quite a bit different now due to the way that Paragon Chat works, though. Ironically, things like NPCs in bases are an order of magnitude easier to do than anything involving a UI change.

:)

No, no need for a heads up...  I will wait patiently, though eagerly, for any news when it comes, and when things are ready, I will adapt RL accordingly.  A person can go 3 days or so without sleep before they start to go insane, right?  What if you are already insane - does that mean you can go without sleep for longer?  The voices in my head aren't telling me the answer...

:)

All the base talk has had me going through my demos, and I came across something interesting that I wanted to ask about...

I have a demo of a small party in "The Matrix Room".  I'm assuming that I wouldn't be able to load that into the PC version of the base editor and start adding desks and stuff to it, would I?  Would I be correct to further assume that it is treated more like a zone, or maybe a sub-zone of Peregrin Island, and not really like an editable room or base, so it probably wouldn't even load at all into the editor?

Speaking of the Matrix Room, is it even accessible in PC?  I think some weird "nothing to see here" type message comes up when you try to find the hole in the map that grants you access to it.  Did you guys do that, or was it something the devs added in their last update?

Would you guys ever consider adding it to the /mapmove list?  Perhaps in the extradimentional section?

-WarBase-
He who took the red pill and the blue pill together, and now sees the reality in the virtual world...

Arcana

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #97 on: August 24, 2016, 08:37:58 PM »
-WarBase-
He who took the red pill and the blue pill together, and now sees the reality in the virtual world...

I thought that meant you saw the virtual world in 3D, but only with special glasses.

GamingGlen

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #98 on: August 25, 2016, 06:09:26 PM »
Would it be possible to spawn base items in Icon?  I don't need a base, just the ability to spawn the base items on the regular maps.

Codewalker

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Re: Technical discussion of bases
« Reply #99 on: August 25, 2016, 06:50:21 PM »
I really doubt it. Base items aren't spawned. When you place one, the entire "world" map is rebuilt in order to have that item in the correct place. They aren't entities like NPCs but static props just like the Atlas Statue or City Hall. It's also done clientside and only works in a base map.

The only exceptions would be the items that use an entity so that they can be targeted in a base raid. Even those typically have an invisible costume and use a special override to create the geometry. Generators and control items might be able to be spawned in Icon. I know for sure the turrets wouldn't work.