Straw Poll: Base item limits

[Codewalker]

It's no big secret that the base editor is a major feature that is being worked on for a future release. At this point it's functional with a few rough edges.

One of the things that is different from live is that badge locked and crafted items just show up in the main editor UI. There are a couple reasons for that, not the least of which is that there isn't a way to earn supergroup badges in Paragon Chat (there aren't even supergroups), and there is no crafting or inventory system.

Historically, bases in COH have always had different room types, and certain items could only be placed in certain rooms. i.e. control items can only go into a control room, and you can only have 1 or 2 of them in the room depending on which room size you use. Some types of items also have a plotwide limit that can vary with the plot selected.

That's all part of the base minigame, which involves earning prestige, unlocking items, and designing a base with enough power and control to run the function items to be useful for your supergroup. The room limits were there so that you'd have to use the bigger (and more expensive) rooms in order to get all of the items. That goes double if you're trying to build a raid-worthy base.

In Paragon Chat there isn't a game, there isn't prestige, and the "functional" base items... aren't. There isn't any utility to be had from a base other than cosmetics, so the minigame doesn't make much sense. I'm strongly considering just modding the limits out of existence, and making every item able to be placed in any room without limit, just like decorative items can.

My question is: Is there anyone at all who doesn't like that idea? It might be possible to implement a classic mode with the limits still in place, for someone who wants to play the minigame of designing a base that could theoretically operate according to the rules of the live game. But if there isn't any interest in that, it's far simpler to just remove the limits altogether.

[FloatingFatMan]

Personally, I'd dump the limits.

[Styrj]

I say, off with the limits!

Nothing wrong with more stuff to play with.

[AmberOfDzu]

I'm trying to think of downsides to removing those constraints, and not coming up with much. I say remove the limits.

[damienray]

No limits, please.

[Tahquitz]

I'm thinking like TUNNEL, if a player wants to self-impose limits, there's nothing to stop them from using roleplay to do so.  (My team left through TUNNEL, but since I was level 18 I couldn't enter it...)

[GamingGlen]

Remove the limits.

[saipaman]

Off with their heads!

[Nyghtshade]

Sounds fine to me to dump the limits.

You said that functional items would not function, and isn't that pretty much how they were later in the game, after the base-raid feature broke?   

Would those items still have cosmetic 'power' effects?  For instance, slow field generators, even though non-functional, could still generate a field 'effect' which looked like water.  Will effects like those still be possible in P.C.?   And if so, is there a choice between the original effect and an upgraded effect?

[Codewalker]

You said that functional items would not function, and isn't that pretty much how they were later in the game, after the base-raid feature broke?

A number of items still worked and had some utility, even if it was often marginalized by game features introduced later. Teleporters, storage (with strict per-room and per-base limits), crafting tables, a limited inspiration vendor, etc. Plus one SF that required the mission computer to start.

Would those items still have cosmetic 'power' effects?  For instance, slow field generators, even though non-functional, could still generate a field 'effect' which looked like water.  Will effects like those still be possible in P.C.?   And if so, is there a choice between the original effect and an upgraded effect?

Slow fields do have the vaguely watery effect, which came as a surprise to me. It's apparently part of the object itself.

Other effects like the bubbles from the force field generator, or the popular 'disco laser' effect on the stealth suppressor unfortunately do not work as they were produced by powers that the NPC attached to the item had.

Objects with that particular effect attached statically do exist, as can be seen in Pocket D and Paragon Dance Party. So it's possible that one might make a comeback, given how easy it is to add items to the base editor from existing geometry (once some logistics are worked out).

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

No limits!
i also like the idea of modifying the appropriate base items to incorporate the visual and audio effects of their (now nonexistent) powers as well. Hardly required, but it would be fun.

[Surelle]

Yeah, I guess just axing the limits is the way to go.  This is especially true if there really, truly is no way to make Paragon Chat into a combat/powerset/mobs with AI version (even single player, hosted by the user).  If there *is* a way, even way down the pike, than keeping a classic mode in the closet might not be a bad thing (if that's really possible without a metric ton of extra work).

[Floride]

I say no limits as well.
However, I think I should mention something you may or may not already be aware of. I run Windoze with "virtual memory" turned off so I encountered this more often than most. After only a couple of hours of base editing I would usually get a pop up warning me I'm low on memory before the editor would crash/seize which led me to believe the editor either had a memory leak or the "undo" function was set to log infinitely. If limits are removed, I fear whatever I was encountering could occur even for players with ample "virtual memory".
Question though: since the 'porters are non functional would it be reasonably possible to somehow implement a menu of destinations that could drop down when you click on the base entry 'porter? Instead of just porting oneself back to the zone he/she/it came from?

[Victoria Victrix]

Add me to the "no limits" party.

[FloatingFatMan]

I run Windoze with "virtual memory" turned off so I encountered this more often than most.

After only a couple of hours of base editing I would usually get a pop up warning me I'm low on memory before the editor would crash/seize which led me to believe the editor either had a memory leak or the "undo" function was set to log infinitely.

You're not meant to turn the virtual memory feature of Windows off, no matter how much physical RAM you have, ever.  Many apps are designed to require it no matter what and this is why you can have problems with some apps.

[Codewalker]

I say no limits as well.
However, I think I should mention something you may or may not already be aware of. I run Windoze with "virtual memory" turned off so I encountered this more often than most. After only a couple of hours of base editing I would usually get a pop up warning me I'm low on memory before the editor would crash/seize which led me to believe the editor either had a memory leak or the "undo" function was set to log infinitely. If limits are removed, I fear whatever I was encountering could occur even for players with ample "virtual memory".

Sounds like some signals are getting mixed there.

Unless you have far, far too little RAM to even think about running swapless (and even then it's not a great idea), the COH client by itself can't possibly use enough to exhaust virtual memory. As a 32-bit process on a 64-bit system, it's limited to 4GB address space, max. 2GB if running on a 32-bit OS. In practice, the client will crash if it gets above ~3.7GB.

It's been long known that extended base editor sessions cause the client to slowly grow in memory usage. My gut feeling is a leak somewhere in the process that rebuilds the world from the base map on each edit. Given how complex that process is, it's exponentially more unlikely in a post-shutdown world that it is even possible to fix. The workaround is to periodically exit the editor, and quit to desktop/reload once memory usage starts getting high. This problem isn't something that is unique to bases with a lot of items; it can happen even in simple bases if you edit them long enough.

There is no "undo feature" in the base editor, even though it's something that was asked for repeatedly for a long time.

I've debated about whether or not to keep the 20,000 item hard cap. On one hand, it does serve as a sanity check. Bases with tons and tons of items will be slower to load and to edit, no way around that. On the other, if people want to build themselves into a corner where the editor becomes unstable and unusable, shouldn't we let them? Or is it better to prevent the heartache by not letting it get that far?

It's not really a griefable situation, since it takes far fewer resources to zone into a base than it does to create that base in the editor to begin with.

Question though: since the 'porters are non functional would it be reasonably possible to somehow implement a menu of destinations that could drop down when you click on the base entry 'porter? Instead of just porting oneself back to the zone he/she/it came from?

Right now the entry portal does nothing, it's not implemented yet. When finished it'll go back to where you came in from, similar to the live behavior. There isn't really a reason to attach a menu to it, since that functionality is already available with /mapmenu.

[Achilles6]

no limits.

[sweatcake66]

I say no limits, The limits was for game balance only.

[AudreyWinter]

Add me to the No Limits camp.

[Codewalker]

Okay, okay, I think we have a landslide. Consider per-room limits and placement limits gone.

I probably will keep the basewide hard cap, but set it at 30,000 to start, just to keep anybody from shooting themselves in the foot too badly. That's a 50% increase from live and should allow expansion of existing bases. Will reevaluate later depending on how stable the editor is (or isn't) with huge bases near the cap.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

Okay, okay, I think we have a landslide. Consider per-room limits and placement limits gone.

I probably will keep the basewide hard cap, but set it at 30,000 to start, just to keep anybody from shooting themselves in the foot too badly. That's a 50% increase from live and should allow expansion of existing bases. Will reevaluate later depending on how stable the editor is (or isn't) with huge bases near the cap.

[Mageman]

With everyone saying "Off with their heads!" - oops, I mean "Off with the limits!", I hate to be a nay-sayer.

I'd like to see the original limits still in place. You need a power room to put a power generator, a teleport room to put in your teleporters, etc.

Personally, I think you could put enough in to make it slow as heck, but why do that? And, if there's a "memory leak" - why push it to crash the game? And, if one-day we get the game back, it would be nice to have practiced the game with the original limits in place. And let people see what they could build with those limits. Maybe even put in a limit that you can't have both Paragon City and Rogue Islands beacons to be a Hero or Villain base.

Now, this version would should let you just buy anything, even though you haven't earned the badges (you can't earn badges right now), but let people see what they can build. Maybe even keep a record of Prestige spent. This way, you can see what you'd need to build your "ultimate base". For me, it was to get the base functional (a functional teleporter to each zone, functional medical bay, etc.) and then let my friend decorate to his heart's content. Actually, this was sometimes a contention between us - I'd save Prestige to build something in the base, and my friend would see that prestige just sitting there and start decorating like mad and buying decorative rooms. Eventually, we agreed that I would get everything functional, and then he could decorate when I'm done. So we'd end up with everything that we need operationally near the entrance (workroom/teleport/medical) and then he could add whatever else he wanted. It made for a nice base.

[Paragon Avenger]

With everyone saying "Off with their heads!" - oops, I mean "Off with the limits!", I hate to be a nay-sayer.

I'd like to see the original limits still in place. You need a power room to put a power generator, a teleport room to put in your teleporters, etc.

Personally, I think you could put enough in to make it slow as heck, but why do that? And, if there's a "memory leak" - why push it to crash the game? And, if one-day we get the game back, it would be nice to have practiced the game with the original limits in place. And let people see what they could build with those limits. Maybe even put in a limit that you can't have both Paragon City and Rogue Islands beacons to be a Hero or Villain base.

Now, this version would should let you just buy anything, even though you haven't earned the badges (you can't earn badges right now), but let people see what they can build. Maybe even keep a record of Prestige spent. This way, you can see what you'd need to build your "ultimate base". For me, it was to get the base functional (a functional teleporter to each zone, functional medical bay, etc.) and then let my friend decorate to his heart's content. Actually, this was sometimes a contention between us - I'd save Prestige to build something in the base, and my friend would see that prestige just sitting there and start decorating like mad and buying decorative rooms. Eventually, we agreed that I would get everything functional, and then he could decorate when I'm done. So we'd end up with everything that we need operationally near the entrance (workroom/teleport/medical) and then he could add whatever else he wanted. It made for a nice base.

Over-ruled.  (said the way the judge said it in the movie 'My Cousin Vinny".)

Since we can't earn prestige, there is no point to the limits, because part of the limits were the cost in prestige for the item.
The base "minigame" in Paragon Chat will be a design contest.

[MM3squints]

I downloaded PC just to say no limits

[Lycantropus]

As a base lover, I just have to say "no limits" as long as it doesn't prevent us from building (or later featuring) bases. I actually miss doing that, and if it's a 'thing' I'd rather if I could.

I miss basebuilding in a weird way, and for a lot of reasons. I actually made a demoedit for our SG of the base so that it was always there (just as much for myself as anyone) and having actually lost a player in RL since, it's kind of a 'thing'. I don't mind the stacking desks, and the other tricks to get it to work right... and I might even say I could get a couple of my SG to log into PC if I could tell them they could see their old base again, or even better some variant.

The ONLY reason I'd say stick  to previous limits is if it broke anything that might make it accessible to anyone in the current Paragon Chat (and beyond, if there are any hopes of that) because at the end of the day, Base building is another thing we can share with everyone else. I'd be even happier with no prestige just to unleash our creativity, but if that could be an incentive to get folks "doing" in the City again, I'm okay with that. Some folks need reasons to be here, and that's as good as any!

The most important thing is to keep the City going! Paragon Chat is a great start, and I wish I had more computer savvy to offer more, but if this is a 'thing' I'll gladly make stuff for people to look at if it works more or less the same way as the original editor in some bases!!

That and AE missions... I had some I-1 updated transfers developed that had gotten dropped by the wayside (like the 'Path of the Dark' stuff I connected to some Romulus lore- but I figure that's outside the scope of things currently... *sigh*)

Still...

Lyc~

[Mister Hassenpheffer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkEXGgdqMz8

There's no lemon!


I can see a future where Paragon chat is used to hold insane base related events.

I have one planned that Iv'e been sitting on for quite some time. (since i13)

I live to see this eventuate.