Author Topic: City of Heroes 2  (Read 12709 times)

princezilla

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City of Heroes 2
« on: July 10, 2017, 05:39:15 AM »
After five years of completely ignoring the IP and generally seeming like they'd prefer it if people forgot CoH ever existed NCsoft seemingly out of nowhere started utilizing it again. Now this could easily be a clueless attempt to draw in VoX alumni to their new game by sticking the guy on the cover of it's box in as a playable character and yet the backstory they released for him heavily features elements which were only revealed in the post sunset AMAs showing that they did in fact put some thought into it. Then they brought in Ghost Widow and CoX themed PvE content. Again, this could mean nothing, it could be as some have reported the work of a lone company official who played the game back in the day and fought to get pieces of it included in this new project in tribute. It probably is.

But.

The very fact that they are using the IP again raises a possibility that most of the community had written off years ago:

The City of name being revived through a sequel while still under NCsoft.

Now I'm curious, given the hostility many here bare for the company would you play a new game set in Paragon if they were running it? For me the answer is a resounding 'hell yes' but I want to know what others think.

LateNights

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 06:22:48 AM »
I'd almost boycott it just for using the name CoH 2 - I hate any MMO that's so lacking in creativity that they would simply slap a "2" on the end and call it a day...

But if NC were responsible I'd probably be ok with it; at the end of the day they made a business decision, whether or not it seemed like good sense to us isn't their highest priority, nor does it have to be.

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 06:29:32 AM »
I'd almost boycott it just for using the name CoH 2 - I hate any MMO that's so lacking in creativity that they would simply slap a "2" on the end and call it a day...

But if NC were responsible I'd probably be ok with it; at the end of the day they made a business decision, whether or not it seemed like good sense to us isn't their highest priority, nor does it have to be.

If I had to place money on it I'd say they'd probably go with City of Heroes: Rebirth, I just used two as a general indicator of a sequel so everyone would instantly know what it was referring to.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 07:11:37 AM by princezilla »

Abraxus

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2017, 12:59:32 AM »
Depends on a whole lot of variables that we could not know the answer to until such a thing were announced, and information about it published. 

However, I am not opposed to it on pure principle.  In fact, if such a thing were in the works, it would retroactively explain a LOT of things that have had us all irritated, and confused.
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Surelle

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 10:25:47 AM »
After five years of completely ignoring the IP and generally seeming like they'd prefer it if people forgot CoH ever existed NCsoft seemingly out of nowhere started utilizing it again. Now this could easily be a clueless attempt to draw in VoX alumni to their new game by sticking the guy on the cover of it's box in as a playable character and yet the backstory they released for him heavily features elements which were only revealed in the post sunset AMAs showing that they did in fact put some thought into it. Then they brought in Ghost Widow and CoX themed PvE content. Again, this could mean nothing, it could be as some have reported the work of a lone company official who played the game back in the day and fought to get pieces of it included in this new project in tribute. It probably is.

But.

The very fact that they are using the IP again raises a possibility that most of the community had written off years ago:

The City of name being revived through a sequel while still under NCsoft.

Now I'm curious, given the hostility many here bare for the company would you play a new game set in Paragon if they were running it? For me the answer is a resounding 'hell yes' but I want to know what others think.


Okay, sorry and not meaning to rain on the parade here, but....Dead trademarks are lost in 5 years if left unused.  That is what happened here.  Please see Downix's posts on the subject here:


https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=12539.msg218683#msg218683

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City of Heroes / Re: Statesman is Back... in MXM
« on: April 09, 2017, 05:17:02 PM by Downix»

Remember, Trademarks have a "use them or loose them" nature. One of the reasons why City of Titans has t-shirts for sale is to maintain our trademark. The inclusion of Statesman would be considered "use" of the City of Heroes trademark.

https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=12539.msg218689#msg218689


Quote
Quote from: Power Gamer on April 09, 2017, 06:01:22 PM
Respectfully downix,

Trademarks expire by law after 10 years unless the owner files an Application for Renewal before the end of the tenth year following the date of registration. Provided there are no problems, the trademark will be renewed for another 10 years.

Renewal of the application is far less expensive or time consuming than including the iconic character in an unrelated property.  ;)


Downix:

Only if active. Inactive trademarks can be lost after 5 years.



Quote
Quote from: Power Gamer on April 09, 2017, 10:09:34 PM
CoH Freedom is a live trademark.


Downix:
Yes, and it would have been a dead trademark if not used.




« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 10:31:37 AM by Surelle »

Thunder Glove

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 01:27:04 PM »
I don't want a CoH2 under NCSoft.  I want it under Paragon Studios.

There's other superhero games out there, but none of them are the happy mess of accidents that combined to make the superhero game I actually want to play.  DCUO is a gear grind where you play Superman's lowly sidekick, CO keeps making the characters weaker (and they weren't that powerful to begin with), and ... well, that's about it for games where you can create your own character.

I'm hoping that CoT or SoH or VO will have at least some of CoH's feel to them.

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2017, 05:12:51 PM »
I don't want a CoH2 under NCSoft.  I want it under Paragon Studios.

There's other superhero games out there, but none of them are the happy mess of accidents that combined to make the superhero game I actually want to play.  DCUO is a gear grind where you play Superman's lowly sidekick, CO keeps making the characters weaker (and they weren't that powerful to begin with), and ... well, that's about it for games where you can create your own character.

I'm hoping that CoT or SoH or VO will have at least some of CoH's feel to them.

Not to mention CO's terrible lore and DC's pathetic character creator.

I agree that it would be nice to have most of the old Dev team back but reviving the studio isn't a realistic expectation and many of the members have become invested in other projects.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 05:29:41 PM by princezilla »

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2017, 05:25:12 PM »

Okay, sorry and not meaning to rain on the parade here, but....Dead trademarks are lost in 5 years if left unused.  That is what happened here.  Please see Downix's posts on the subject here:


https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=12539.msg218683#msg218683

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City of Heroes / Re: Statesman is Back... in MXM
« on: April 09, 2017, 05:17:02 PM by Downix»

Remember, Trademarks have a "use them or loose them" nature. One of the reasons why City of Titans has t-shirts for sale is to maintain our trademark. The inclusion of Statesman would be considered "use" of the City of Heroes trademark.

https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=12539.msg218689#msg218689


Quote
Quote from: Power Gamer on April 09, 2017, 06:01:22 PM
Respectfully downix,

Trademarks expire by law after 10 years unless the owner files an Application for Renewal before the end of the tenth year following the date of registration. Provided there are no problems, the trademark will be renewed for another 10 years.

Renewal of the application is far less expensive or time consuming than including the iconic character in an unrelated property.  ;)


Downix:

Only if active. Inactive trademarks can be lost after 5 years.



Quote
Quote from: Power Gamer on April 09, 2017, 10:09:34 PM
CoH Freedom is a live trademark.


Downix:
Yes, and it would have been a dead trademark if not used.

This is true but they could have put far less investment into it if that was all they wanted and they haven't made such efforts with other defunct IPs they have.

Again I never said this was a sure thing or even likely, just that their renewed interest in the IP raised it as a realistic possibility.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2017, 06:01:08 PM »
At this point, I am content to wait for one or any of the successors, CoT, Valiance, Ship of Heroes...rather than a COH2.

downix

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2017, 06:15:33 PM »
I don't want a CoH2 under NCSoft.  I want it under Paragon Studios.
Paragon Studios is gone. It has been gone since NCSoft shut down NCInteractive, Inc., it's holding company, in December 2012.

downix

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2017, 06:19:01 PM »
Let's be honest, the most likely way for this to happen would be if they were to buy out one of the spiritual successor projects.

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2017, 07:18:09 PM »
Let's be honest, the most likely way for this to happen would be if they were to buy out one of the spiritual successor projects.

That's actually the least likely way it would happen for a number of reasons. Realistically the only way this would come about is if they agreed to give the rights to one of the teams negotiating for them but only on the condition that they remained in control of the IP which seems kinda unlikely and I'm not certain that anyone on the successor project would agree to that regardless.

They would most likely like to assemble their own team, drawing from people who worked on the original where possible.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2017, 07:34:21 PM »
I would be interested but I would want the general parts of the game to stay the same as CoH1.  The same look and way to place enhancements; the same look and way you choose your powers; the same way you use your inspirations and so on.  I'd want a continuation of CoH1 but with only improvements (not that I truly thought any were needed).
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princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2017, 07:59:59 PM »
I would be interested but I would want the general parts of the game to stay the same as CoH1.  The same look and way to place enhancements; the same look and way you choose your powers; the same way you use your inspirations and so on.  I'd want a continuation of CoH1 but with only improvements (not that I truly thought any were needed).

CoH was great but it could be improved upon in a lot of areas, not mention that by the end the game was held together by the coding equivalent of paperclips and duck tape by the end according to the devs which along with it's aging engine limited what they could do in a lot of ways. I would have definitely preferred to keep the old game as it ran just for the community and investment put into it but a new start opens up a huge range of possibilities to expand on the leveling, creation and enhancement systems they used which would have never been possible before. They should definitely use the old system as a guideline rather than start from scratch with something completely different but I'd also expect them to take full advantage of new technology. This is getting off topic however, I'll start a new thread just for this aspect unrelated to the general idea of 'ok you play on principle?' because this is a very interesting line of discussion but I don't want to derail theis thread.

downix

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2017, 08:06:01 PM »
That's actually the least likely way it would happen for a number of reasons. Realistically the only way this would come about is if they agreed to give the rights to one of the teams negotiating for them but only on the condition that they remained in control of the IP which seems kinda unlikely and I'm not certain that anyone on the successor project would agree to that regardless.

They would most likely like to assemble their own team, drawing from people who worked on the original where possible.
I don't think you're quite understanding what I am saying. I am saying that if CoH2 comes out, it will most likely be an NCSoft product. I have to take the inclusion of CoH IP in MxM as an indication that they will not sell, but that they will gladly *use* the IP, for a product they own.

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2017, 08:35:19 PM »
I don't think you're quite understanding what I am saying. I am saying that if CoH2 comes out, it will most likely be an NCSoft product. I have to take the inclusion of CoH IP in MxM as an indication that they will not sell, but that they will gladly *use* the IP, for a product they own.

I think you misunderstood the original topic in that case, this thread was exclusively about if it was put out by NCsoft. In any case I doubt they would buy out another game being made and revamp the work to make it CoX rather then starting from scratch.

downix

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2017, 08:54:12 PM »
I think you misunderstood the original topic in that case, this thread was exclusively about if it was put out by NCsoft. In any case I doubt they would buy out another game being made and revamp the work to make it CoX rather then starting from scratch.
That depends greatly on the amount of work needed. Remember, from scratch is a $40-$200 Million dollar expense, over 5-8 years. An under development title which could be repurposed would be a time and money saver for them.

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2017, 12:27:16 AM »
That depends greatly on the amount of work needed. Remember, from scratch is a $40-$200 Million dollar expense, over 5-8 years. An under development title which could be repurposed would be a time and money saver for them.

Unless they were already in talks with one over something related I doubt they'd reach out, and even then I think they'd want more creative control over the project from the start.

AmberOfDzu

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2017, 01:31:55 AM »
I don't have much to add other than that I would call a new version "City of Heroes: Reincarnate"

FourSpeed

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2017, 08:35:04 PM »
Now I'm curious, given the hostility many here bare for the company would you play a new game set in Paragon if they were running it? For me the answer is a resounding 'hell yes' but I want to know what others think.

In answer to the OP's question, for me, there is an absolutely "no grey", pure black and white answer. 

NO.  If NCsoft has *any* stake, interest, or claim to a product, in any way shape or form, I will not give it a second glance. That includes running the former game in maintenance mode, in addition to *any* product they ever market now or in the future. YMMV.

My question would be simple. "Is NCsoft involved with this product in any form whatsoever?" If the answer to that question is "Yes", then they can go "pancake" themselves.

After CoH, and Tabula Rasa, the way they treat their partners and customers, and now with MXM, NCsoft does not, and will not *ever* deserve more than an "F U" from me.  Again, YMMV.

The only way I would ever even consider the thought of getting involved in one of their products is if they entirely divest themselves of it, 100%.  As long as they're involved, at all, I won't be....     No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Life is too short to put up with their brand of crap, especially when it comes to my personal, leisure-time, voluntary entertainment choices... 

Now, if for example, some unaffiliated group were to pick up CoH, and demonstrably shows that NCsoft is not in any way affiliated or involved with it anymore (including royalties, ongoing licensing fees, etc.), I'd be on-board in a heart beat.   

Of course,  that was always little more than a feeble hope, and at this point, with the re-use of their IP, it is now pretty much an impossibility.  Humanity will colonize Mars, and Pete Rose will be reinstated by Major League Baseball long before that game ever sees the light of day again (in someone else's hands).

As for the successor projects, I wish them all the best. When they finally emerge, I'll give them a look (on their own merits - not as a CoH replacement).


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Thunder Glove

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2017, 01:10:08 PM »
Paragon Studios is gone. It has been gone since NCSoft shut down NCInteractive, Inc., it's holding company, in December 2012.

Yes, I know.  That was exactly the point I was making.

CoH was lightning in a bottle.  It was a happy accident.  It was the right people at the right time making the right game, and then even more of the right people making the right updates to that game.  (Okay, not always exactly right, but right frequently enough)

That will probably never happen again.  I just hope the Spiritual Successors can come close.

But I know damn well that NCSoft isn't going to make My Favorite Game Part 2 just by grabbing a random bunch of people to throw together some new engine and slapping the CoH name on it.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2017, 03:33:09 PM »
I just hope for FourSpeed's sake that NCSoft doesn't decide to diversify into oxygen futures.

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2017, 04:48:32 PM »
Yes, I know.  That was exactly the point I was making.

CoH was lightning in a bottle.  It was a happy accident.  It was the right people at the right time making the right game, and then even more of the right people making the right updates to that game.  (Okay, not always exactly right, but right frequently enough)

That will probably never happen again.  I just hope the Spiritual Successors can come close.

But I know damn well that NCSoft isn't going to make My Favorite Game Part 2 just by grabbing a random bunch of people to throw together some new engine and slapping the CoH name on it.

I see this sentiment often but I don't think it's really true. As Miller said in one of his post CoX interviews the environment now is better for a superhero game then it was at any point during CoX's run, CoX shut down just as the post Avengers movie superhero craze was building. And only two superhero MMORPGs have followed CoX, CO which has an amazing character creator but is crippled by it's absolute garbage lore/writing and complete lack of anything productive to do once you hit max lvl and DCUO which failed to pull in most of   the group which formed the heart of CoX due to their flubbing of the character creator from launch and never bothering to expand it, it's also limited by how established the setting it is in is and the fact that the people making the game don't have control over the IP which limits the things they can do a lot.

The people working on it are the hardest thing to replicate because it was a passion project for so many of them but that is true for all of the successor projects as well and it's not inconceivable that NCsoft could reassemble large chunks of the old team.

The thing which made CoX stand out was creativity, both in that the devs weren't afraid to try new things not typically seen in the industry and that the game actually rewarded creative and original character builds which was perhaps the single most important factor in forming the games community.

That last one is something which games of all genres have been moving further and further away from every year it seems and most MMOs on the market right now actively punish innovation or see it's possibility as a design flaw to be avoided.

Yeah no game has even come close to taking up CoX's mantle in the five years since it died but no one has really even tried. It's wouldn't even be that hard for someone who was invested in the project if they got ample funding/support considering CoX has already served as a testbed for a lot of things they should do and even a couple things they should avoid.

I do understand the frustration and animosity directed at NCSOFT, and share a lot of it, but I also understand that the company is not a monolith, there are thousands of people working there most of which likely had nothing to do with CoX's closure and, while I am probably going to continue avoiding the company until it happens, if some of those people realize the company's mistake then create a game under the IP that remains true to the spirit of the original I am not pretty enough to avoid something which I would enjoy in a setting I love out of spite.

FourSpeed

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2017, 05:26:01 PM »
I just hope for FourSpeed's sake that NCSoft doesn't decide to diversify into oxygen futures.
I'm certain that won't be a problem.  NCsoft is nothing more than an insignificant gaming company with crappy business practices.  Apart from the occasions where I read these forums, I'm blissfully unaware of their activities or even their existence -- just the way I prefer it.    ;)

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AlphaFerret

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2017, 05:53:39 PM »
There is no way i could not play it....

LateNights

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2017, 09:53:37 AM »
If I had to place money on it I'd say they'd probably go with City of Heroes: Rebirth, I just used two as a general indicator of a sequel so everyone would instantly know what it was referring to.

 :)

I was joking - but a little truthful also, because MMOs are supposed to be the game, which to me a sequel doesn't seem to fit with that notion...

Ultimate15

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2017, 01:23:05 PM »
There is no way i could not play it....

These are literally my sentiments exactly. If a COH2 were to come out (or a City of Heroes: Rebirth, or whatever the title may be...) I would absolutely play it regardless of whom would be producing/owning the rights to it. Whether it be NCSoft directly, or a third party company...I'm there. And honestly - I think a lot of the former players whom are swearing up and down that they wouldn't touch it if NCSoft were attached would eventually crack and come back lol. Let's be real here, people  :roll:

In an ideal world, we would have COH2 ported over to the unreal engine and all of the same lore/zones/costumes etc. would just be built/expanded upon, as opposed to creating a new game that has altered or changed the fundamentals.

Now, regarding getting the original COH back - I don't think NCSoft will ever come around to selling that IP. I pray to God my pessimism is off with this, but I just can't see it happening. I actually think they're using the IP in another game title is even MORE of a sign that they won't be doing anything further with it - like, this is their way of saying "Okay, we will attempt to appease you by putting Statesman + GW in another game and hopefully this will shut ya'll up".

I know this idea has been tossed around before, and I can only fathom that this is just as unrealistic or unobtainable as any other route...but I really do think our best bet of getting the original COH back (at this stage) is for someone, ANYONE to find a way to code it all back together and start a massive private server (like a few other fallen titles have done). Something like what CW has done w/ PC - maybe expanding on that? I dunno. I know that's an insanely large undertaking that likely won't happen - but I really do think it's more likely to pull that off than for NCSoft to sell.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2017, 01:42:34 AM »

Gotta wonder if NcSoft could bring the game back even if they wanted to?

After five years, would even an image of the game would be in working order?


downix

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2017, 01:52:35 AM »
Gotta wonder if NcSoft could bring the game back even if they wanted to?

After five years, would even an image of the game would be in working order?
As I've said, *IF* I were NCSoft, I would first approach the passion projects which spun up from it's shutdown, with an eye to aquiring one. If successful, then retrofitting the older material to the new project, saving a lot of time and money.

However, it would then be an NCSoft product, and we all know how well that will go over.

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2017, 03:15:12 PM »
They'd have to build a new game from scratch regardless, they'd want to upgrade the tech so it doesn't really matter how much time has passed. A relaunch of the original exactly how it was could never be profitable today, too much time has passed to recapture enough of the old base and a game that old wouldn't draw in many new people at all. However the IP is more powerful than people think so a sequel with significant investment in it's development and a good ad campaign could do extremely well in today's superhero friendly market.

downix

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2017, 03:44:04 PM »
They'd have to build a new game from scratch regardless, they'd want to upgrade the tech so it doesn't really matter how much time has passed. A relaunch of the original exactly how it was could never be profitable today, too much time has passed to recapture enough of the old base and a game that old wouldn't draw in many new people at all. However the IP is more powerful than people think so a sequel with significant investment in it's development and a good ad campaign could do extremely well in today's superhero friendly market.
But they don't. The lions share of the work, the content, still exists in every copy of Paragon Chat. It is not a major challenge to extract, and convert, according to the Atlas Park Revised folk.

By tapping an existing team, the rampup time is saved, and if the under development gameplay is similar enough, it would further shorten time. Consider that Final Fantasy XIV ARR holds the record for fastest MMO ever developed (14 months), because they repurposed and reused all of the art assets from the original Final Fantasy XIV. New game engine, same assets, short development cycle. The same could be done here.

Zerohour

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2017, 07:54:44 PM »
That depends greatly on the amount of work needed. Remember, from scratch is a $40-$200 Million dollar expense, over 5-8 years. An under development title which could be repurposed would be a time and money saver for them.

The price you quoted for an MMO to start up from scratch has me a little worried since the forerunner of the" spiritual successors", City of Titans, is running on less that one million dollars based on what we know about their finances

downix

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2017, 08:14:19 PM »
The price you quoted for an MMO to start up from scratch has me a little worried since the forerunner of the" spiritual successors", City of Titans, is running on less that one million dollars based on what we know about their finances
Most of that is labor, keep in mind. Sometimes hundreds of employees, costing from high-5 to low-6 figures, over 5-8 years, the price adds up. Average, say, $80,000/year, 100 staff, 5 years == $40 million. CoT has almost all volunteer labor (we have used three contractors for specialized tasks), reducing this cost dramatically. I calculated out once that if we had been running a typical MMO studio, with the salaries expected, based on hours of labor invested by all of our volunteers, CoT would have, as of last November, run $16 million.

Consider the cost for a movie for a moment. Remove the payroll, and you can easily produce what looks like a Hollywood blockbuster for a token amount. And people have done just that (Safety not Guaranteed, Monsters, Moon, Primer, etc). Many of these cinematic shoestring masterpieces use deferred payments, with the cast and crew being paid out of the profits from the movie's release. In CoT's case, the volunteers are also the company's owners, so we get our "payout" from the game's release. I cannot tell you how any of the other projects are handling this, because I honestly don't know and even if I did it would be impolite to do so.

This is partially why MOBA's became so big for awhile, they take less time to develop. Less time == lower labor costs == lower budgets == sooner they can recoup the investment.  Cutting the labor cost from 5 years to two years goes a long way to reigning in production costs.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2017, 04:59:21 AM »
Most of that is labor, keep in mind. Sometimes hundreds of employees, costing from high-5 to low-6 figures, over 5-8 years, the price adds up. Average, say, $80,000/year, 100 staff, 5 years == $40 million. CoT has almost all volunteer labor (we have used three contractors for specialized tasks), reducing this cost dramatically. I calculated out once that if we had been running a typical MMO studio, with the salaries expected, based on hours of labor invested by all of our volunteers, CoT would have, as of last November, run $16 million.

Consider the cost for a movie for a moment. Remove the payroll, and you can easily produce what looks like a Hollywood blockbuster for a token amount. And people have done just that (Safety not Guaranteed, Monsters, Moon, Primer, etc). Many of these cinematic shoestring masterpieces use deferred payments, with the cast and crew being paid out of the profits from the movie's release. In CoT's case, the volunteers are also the company's owners, so we get our "payout" from the game's release. I cannot tell you how any of the other projects are handling this, because I honestly don't know and even if I did it would be impolite to do so.

This is partially why MOBA's became so big for awhile, they take less time to develop. Less time == lower labor costs == lower budgets == sooner they can recoup the investment.  Cutting the labor cost from 5 years to two years goes a long way to reigning in production costs.

Yeah hopefully now that the market has hit saturation and some are caving studios will start trying different shit again. Probably not though, the industry was in a creative rut well before the MOBA craze.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2017, 11:04:59 AM »
I actually think they're using the IP in another game title is even MORE of a sign that they won't be doing anything further with it - like, this is their way of saying "Okay, we will attempt to appease you by putting Statesman + GW in another game and hopefully this will shut ya'll up".

What puzzles me a bit there that they are not "just reusing the IP". They are advertising MxM with Statesman.
... and I cannot find any reasonable enough reasons for that move.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2017, 10:42:01 PM »
What puzzles me a bit there that they are not "just reusing the IP". They are advertising MxM with Statesman.
... and I cannot find any reasonable enough reasons for that move.

I think it's kinda simple: they're using him as a marketing ploy. They know that there are a ton of former COH players who are still dying to get pieces of the game back in some way/shape/form, so it would make sense for them to put him at the front tier of their promotional efforts.

He's someone they KNOW people want to see again.
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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2017, 12:08:51 AM »
I think it's kinda simple: they're using him as a marketing ploy. They know that there are a ton of former COH players who are still dying to get pieces of the game back in some way/shape/form, so it would make sense for them to put him at the front tier of their promotional efforts.

He's someone they KNOW people want to see again.

If I game them credit for knowing the American market at all, I would have attributed it to a malicious intent.  Showing us how they still have it, and if they have to trot things out a little at a time, just to keep the ember of hope burning, then they win again.  Since they don't know anything about the American market, I doubt it occurred to them.
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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2017, 03:32:53 AM »
I think it's kinda simple: they're using him as a marketing ploy. They know that there are a ton of former COH players who are still dying to get pieces of the game back in some way/shape/form, so it would make sense for them to put him at the front tier of their promotional efforts.

He's someone they KNOW people want to see again.

It has the opposite effect on me. Just convinces me NCSoft hates us and I refuse to give them any more money.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2017, 06:26:03 AM »
If I game them credit for knowing the American market at all, I would have attributed it to a malicious intent.  Showing us how they still have it, and if they have to trot things out a little at a time, just to keep the ember of hope burning, then they win again.  Since they don't know anything about the American market, I doubt it occurred to them.
It has the opposite effect on me. Just convinces me NCSoft hates us and I refuse to give them any more money.

Again, they are a game company, not some evil organization that feeds on human suffering and hates people who gave them money for years. Attributing malice to any of this is idiotic, it is at worst misguided.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2017, 11:25:21 AM »
Consider that Final Fantasy XIV ARR holds the record for fastest MMO ever developed (14 months), because they repurposed and reused all of the art assets from the original Final Fantasy XIV. New game engine, same assets, short development cycle. The same could be done here.

They did a hellish 2 year long micromanaged sprint: https://youtu.be/aoOI5R-6u8k This is the most relevant part of the documentary but it's a good watch all over.
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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2017, 01:33:10 PM »
Again, they are a game company, not some evil organization that feeds on human suffering and hates people who gave them money for years. Attributing malice to any of this is idiotic, it is at worst misguided.

I qualified my "malicious" statement by saying "if they understood the American market".  Since they obviously don't, it was just a business decision that, from our perspective, just felt that way.
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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2017, 02:01:49 PM »
What puzzles me a bit there that they are not "just reusing the IP". They are advertising MxM with Statesman.
... and I cannot find any reasonable enough reasons for that move.

all the best,
Dae
Easy. Capitalization on the huge success of American superhero movies. It's the only western superhero product that they have IP for.

Just trying to make a buck on a "trend".
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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2017, 03:12:39 PM »
Easy. Capitalization on the huge success of American superhero movies. It's the only western superhero product that they have IP for.

Just trying to make a buck on a "trend".

It's still puzzling, because that trend was already well underway when they shut down CoH.  (Iron Man had been released in 2008, and the Avengers had been released earlier the same year they shut CoH down)

If they wanted to capitalize on "the superhero trend", shutting down their big superhero game right after the biggest superhero movie in decades, doing absolutely nothing with the IP for five whole years, and then bringing a couple of NPCs back as glorified cameos in another game seems like a really roundabout (read: stupid) way to do it.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2017, 05:08:43 PM »
Again, they are a game company, not some evil organization that feeds on human suffering and hates people who gave them money for years. Attributing malice to any of this is idiotic, it is at worst misguided.
I agree with princezilla here - I don't see any "malice" per se, in what NCsoft does.

There's an old adage, something along the lines of: "Never attribute to malice what can be accounted for by sheer ignorance and stupidity".

With respect to the North American gaming market, NCsoft makes the proverbial "box of rocks" look like Einstein.

Their approach, in the NA market, strikes me much more as "gross incompetence" than anything else... They're like a plumber who, instead of fixing the drippy faucet you called him for, ends up flooding your entire home...

I can't speak for anyone else, but that "plumber" would never come near my home again, and in the same way, NCsoft will never sell a product to me again either.

Frankly, they should stick solely to the Korean marketplace, where they seem to have at least a small vestige of a clue.


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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2017, 08:04:59 PM »
It's still puzzling, because that trend was already well underway when they shut down CoH.  (Iron Man had been released in 2008, and the Avengers had been released earlier the same year they shut CoH down)

If they wanted to capitalize on "the superhero trend", shutting down their big superhero game right after the biggest superhero movie in decades, doing absolutely nothing with the IP for five whole years, and then bringing a couple of NPCs back as glorified cameos in another game seems like a really roundabout (read: stupid) way to do it.

You missed out: The Punisher, Spider-Man 2   (won an Oscar as well), Blade Trinity, Elektra, Fantastic 4, X-Men: Last Stand, Ghost Rider, Spiderman 3, Fantastic 4: Rise of the Silver Surfer all being released whilst CoX was alive, but before the MCU starting.

And that is just the marvel side.

DC side: Catwoman, Constantine, Batman Begins   (Oscar nominated), V for Vendetta, Superman Returns

And this is all before 2008 (The Dark Knight was 2008), so midway through the games lifespan.... we were not exactly "hurting" for Superhero films, with almost 4 per year at this stage.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2017, 08:21:37 PM »
You missed out: The Punisher, Spider-Man 2   (won an Oscar as well), Blade Trinity, Elektra, Fantastic 4, X-Men: Last Stand, Ghost Rider, Spiderman 3, Fantastic 4: Rise of the Silver Surfer all being released whilst CoX was alive, but before the MCU starting.

And that is just the marvel side.

DC side: Catwoman, Constantine, Batman Begins   (Oscar nominated), V for Vendetta, Superman Returns

And this is all before 2008 (The Dark Knight was 2008), so midway through the games lifespan.... we were not exactly "hurting" for Superhero films, with almost 4 per year at this stage.

Of course half of them sucked, like Elektra and Fantastic 4, or even the X Men movie in there :(.  Speaking of fantastic 4.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TrrE66FYO0

Does this remind you guys of something?
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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2017, 09:01:23 PM »
Of course half of them sucked, like Elektra and Fantastic 4, or even the X Men movie in there :(.  Speaking of fantastic 4.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TrrE66FYO0

Does this remind you guys of something?


Yeah the Superhero craze didn't really explode until Avengers hit. There were some good and very successful movies before it but it wasn't a full blown phenomenon until after it blew open the box office and a few records in the process.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2017, 12:46:29 AM »
Frankly, I wouldn't care who made CoX2 as long as it was out there and as awesome as (if not better than) the original.  I WANT MY CITY BACK!!!

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2017, 12:25:18 AM »
Frankly, I wouldn't care who made CoX2 as long as it was out there and as awesome as (if not better than) the original.  I WANT MY CITY BACK!!!

This has been my attitude for years, with the addendum that at this point a sequel would be better than bringing the old game back as it was at shutdown. We've already lost all of our characters and adds ons so recreating the setting and style of the game using the newest tech and with the advantage of a fresh start rather than having to continue to try and build off a core designed barely out of the 90s would allow for possibilities that the old dev team only dreamed of.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2017, 02:54:08 AM »
I agree with princezilla here - I don't see any "malice" per se, in what NCsoft does.

There's an old adage, something along the lines of: "Never attribute to malice what can be accounted for by sheer ignorance and stupidity".

With respect to the North American gaming market, NCsoft makes the proverbial "box of rocks" look like Einstein.

The Asian MMO market is considerably different from the Western MMO market. There, players would get together with their friends, go down to an internet cafe, and game together as a group. Asian MMOs are very heavily group-focused, to the point where most of the content can't be done solo once you get out of the starting area. And they make most of their money from microtransactions, a cash shop selling a steady stream of gear and buffs; you can't make yourself a god with the cash shop, but you can buy the things to make your grinding smoother and faster. And that was the fundamental problem with CoH. Look at what Paragon Studios did at the end with its version of loot boxes. You didn't get anything that significantly improved on what you could get in game. Everything that mattered in the game came from what you did in the game -- even at endgame, unlocking and upgrading your Incarnate abilities was something you couldn't get from a cash shop, and the majority of what you could get was entirely cosmetic -- new costume parts. There was nothing for NCsoft to monetize, no steady stream of income from a cash shop tied to their NCCoin currency that fed directly to them. It flew in the face of everything that all their experience with MMOs told them that an MMO should be. 'City of Hero' flopped so badly in Korea after all the work put into localization because it didn't play like an Asian MMO; you didn't have to group up to do content, and bringing more people didn't make it easier -- it just scaled up your opposition. You could be a solo hero or villain. All NCsoft saw was an MMO that didn't work the way they expected an MMO to work, and which couldn't be twisted into the 'right' kind of MMO without destroying it. But it was turning a profit. So NCsoft threw a secret project at Paragon Studios to make the studio as a whole lose money, which let them pretend to be virtuous about trimming out unprofitable subsidiaries.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2017, 04:07:17 PM »
Problem there is, CoH was still making money in North America.  Obviously not in the Asian market, but there was still money to be made here.  They just decided that pulling the plug to devote resources to one of their other losing propositions was the better way to go.  Fair enough.  However, throwing roadblocks in front of the folks who wanted to do something with a property they don't appreciate; well, I think that is where a lot of folks get the impression there might be a little malice involved.  True, or not, it's an easy conclusion to arrive at.
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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2017, 08:30:03 PM »
The Asian MMO market is considerably different from the Western MMO market. There, players would get together with their friends, go down to an internet cafe, and game together as a group. Asian MMOs are very heavily group-focused, to the point where most of the content can't be done solo once you get out of the starting area. And they make most of their money from microtransactions, a cash shop selling a steady stream of gear and buffs; you can't make yourself a god with the cash shop, but you can buy the things to make your grinding smoother and faster. And that was the fundamental problem with CoH. Look at what Paragon Studios did at the end with its version of loot boxes. You didn't get anything that significantly improved on what you could get in game. Everything that mattered in the game came from what you did in the game -- even at endgame, unlocking and upgrading your Incarnate abilities was something you couldn't get from a cash shop, and the majority of what you could get was entirely cosmetic -- new costume parts. There was nothing for NCsoft to monetize, no steady stream of income from a cash shop tied to their NCCoin currency that fed directly to them. It flew in the face of everything that all their experience with MMOs told them that an MMO should be. 'City of Hero' flopped so badly in Korea after all the work put into localization because it didn't play like an Asian MMO; you didn't have to group up to do content, and bringing more people didn't make it easier -- it just scaled up your opposition. You could be a solo hero or villain. All NCsoft saw was an MMO that didn't work the way they expected an MMO to work, and which couldn't be twisted into the 'right' kind of MMO without destroying it. But it was turning a profit. So NCsoft threw a secret project at Paragon Studios to make the studio as a whole lose money, which let them pretend to be virtuous about trimming out unprofitable subsidiaries.

Uhhhhh... That's not true. They had released archetype specific enhancements. They had also released upgrades for enhancements. I remember buying more than a few.
Also like most other Asian MMOs they had monetized costume parts. Asian MMOs commonly rake you over the coals for costume parts (especially modifying your costume).
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetype_Enhancements

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2017, 07:04:48 PM »
I sometimes get the impression that NCSoft resents or simply don't get that its American customers won't always respond the same way as its Korean customers.  I recall the Forbes article a little while back that gave me the impression that NCSoft was kind of baffled about much of its failure in North America with the recent exception of "Blade & Soul."  I thought it was kind of suspicious that Paragon Studios and CoX wasn't mentioned at all in that article.  Though amusingly the four comments posted by readers all brought it up.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2017, 11:05:37 PM »
Problem there is, CoH was still making money in North America. 

The GAME was making money here.  Paragon Studios, the organization NCSoft had to support/run the game wasn't.  They really shut down Paragon more than they shut down the game -- a corporate reorganization that cut off an "oddball" piece of the enterprise.

To keep the game up they would have needed some support and that would have needed somebody to pay attention to it, the money wasn't enough to tempt them and the easiest from their perspective was to kill it.

As I understand it.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2017, 03:07:04 AM »
The GAME was making money here.  Paragon Studios, the organization NCSoft had to support/run the game wasn't.  They really shut down Paragon more than they shut down the game -- a corporate reorganization that cut off an "oddball" piece of the enterprise.

To keep the game up they would have needed some support and that would have needed somebody to pay attention to it, the money wasn't enough to tempt them and the easiest from their perspective was to kill it.

As I understand it.

Well, I'd love to have a crystal ball to tell me why, if they have no faith that it could ever work in the Asian market, are they not willing to give someone in the western market a chance to make something of it.  The recent weak effort to use the most recognizable character from the game to promote one of their other losing properties demonstrates, at very least, that they remember they have CoH in the vault, and that there might be some way to make some bucks with it.  They just seem unwilling to accept that the only way it will really benefit anyone (including them), is in its entirety.  Not in small, worthless pieces.

Sorry, let myself slip into righteous indignation mode again.  So easy to do when it comes to our beloved CoH.
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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2018, 08:36:22 PM »
Uhhhhh... That's not true. They had released archetype specific enhancements. They had also released upgrades for enhancements. I remember buying more than a few.
Also like most other Asian MMOs they had monetized costume parts. Asian MMOs commonly rake you over the coals for costume parts (especially modifying your costume).
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetype_Enhancements

None of this happened until long after "City of Hero" had crashed and burned in Korea, though; NCsoft was looking at a game that had already failed in their primary market, and even with the additions that Paragon Studios made to the cash shop near the end of the game, it would still have been nothing like the constant stream of microtransactions from players; the IO being an enhancement you'd never outlevel breaks the Korean MMO model, which relies on a continual gear upgrade process to fuel the cash shop.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2018, 10:07:35 PM »
WoW has heirlooms that boost as you level, up to a certain level, which you can upgrade 2x to get to top level.  This is to ease leveling for established players plowing through the content for the forty-leventh time.  You can pay real cash to jump right to 100, where the most recent expansion begins.

We don't know but IOs would probably be fixed to 50, and leveling stuff would stop at 50, if the cap had ever been increased with an expansion.  These are meant to aid fast leveling through ancient content, or are "best in slot" stuff...for the current content/level cap.

That stuff never drags on past it, and we don't even know for CoH what they would have done, but turning old great stuff into replacment table legs on next expansion is tried and true.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2018, 12:45:16 AM »
WoW has heirlooms that boost as you level, up to a certain level, which you can upgrade 2x to get to top level.  This is to ease leveling for established players plowing through the content for the forty-leventh time.  You can pay real cash to jump right to 100, where the most recent expansion begins.

We don't know but IOs would probably be fixed to 50, and leveling stuff would stop at 50, if the cap had ever been increased with an expansion.  These are meant to aid fast leveling through ancient content, or are "best in slot" stuff...for the current content/level cap.

That stuff never drags on past it, and we don't even know for CoH what they would have done, but turning old great stuff into replacment table legs on next expansion is tried and true.

City of Heroes sidestepped the whole level cap enhancement deal with the Incarnate system. basic leveling stopped at 50, where the Incarnate system started and made further power increases "level-less", so to speak, by slot unlocks for the incarnate powers. I haven't really seen many games go that route. Most of them just increase the level cap, to the consternation of a  great many players with level capped characters.

Star Trek Online also has power progression beyond the level cap without raising the level cap.
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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2018, 07:48:19 AM »
How about a game without levels.
Your exprience gains more powers or stengthens exist powers.
You vs enemy would need a way to tell you, going against Lord Recluse after just starting the game might mean insta-squash for you.

Anyway, you just keep gaining powers and strenthening exist powers.
I don't know when City of Heroes will return, or do I?

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2018, 05:13:40 PM »
How 'bout a no-level system where your powers unlock per enemy type (aliens, machines, humanoid, otherworld, etc) rather than just a straight improvement across the board. It would sort of make sense that if you fought machines all the time you would start learning some tricks to better defeat those enemies while those same tricks wouldn't work on aliens.

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2018, 12:25:58 PM »
How 'bout a no-level system where your powers unlock per enemy type (aliens, machines, humanoid, otherworld, etc) rather than just a straight improvement across the board. It would sort of make sense that if you fought machines all the time you would start learning some tricks to better defeat those enemies while those same tricks wouldn't work on aliens.

The idea of having a non-level system where you would "learn better tricks to defeat X type enemies" has the limitation that a character becomes unplayable against other enemy types...(sorry, stating the obvious here). It would make playing that character boring at some point, because you keep fighting the same type of bad guys. And you would get defeated instantly if you team up with some people and run into mobs you barely have any skills for.

Taking CoH as an example...
If your character fights Thorns (magic beings) all the time and develops skills to defeat magic beings or beings using magic attacks in seconds, the next time you run into a Skulls mob you faceplant before you can even launch your attack.


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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2018, 01:15:12 PM »
Put enough skill types out for availability and you can be more than just one-note. Even fighting Thorns is going to give you some hand-to-hand skills that could apply to any/all other groups.

Advancement should be based on character actions not who they fight. The character can fight Thorns with her bare hands, melee weapons, magic, energy blasts, whatever, and how she defeats them is how the character should advance.

But yeah, level systems tend to be better imo, especially when it comes to grouping. You need a system to determine who should ideally be grouping together.
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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2018, 01:16:48 PM »
... But yeah, level systems tend to be better imo, especially when it comes to grouping. You need a system to determine who should ideally be grouping together.
I think most MMO's (and other types?) use levels because of the above.
If a game wouldn't use levels but only XP to determine a character's skills, strength, hit-points, etc, I guess there is no way of telling who would make a good team-mate.
Also....
If the developers want you to spend hours playing their game and there is no leveling system in place, things might get ... ugly(?).
I think it would mean that you will start at 0 XP and every time you defeat something/someone you will gain a tiny amount of XP.
Like, for every mob you defeat you'll get 1 XP.
A minion? 1 XP
A lieutenant? 1 XP
A boss? 1 XP
Either that or your max XP would be somewhere around 9.99*10 to 27th power (I dunno about sciency stuff, but something like 9 Octillion XP)


A hero isn't defined by LVL or INF, but by the success of one-hitting a L50 AV and live to tell about it!

Here are most of my toons.

Thunder Glove

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2018, 05:31:50 PM »
Several tabletop games (and many video games) use XP but without levels; you just buy abilities directly for the XP.  Stats that can be increased generally have an increasing cost.

Whether that would work in a MMO setting (particularly in determining relative character power for teaming) is another matter.

slickriptide

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2018, 07:14:51 AM »
City of Heroes was originally conceived as being Champions-inspired skills-based system. It would have XP but no levels. Rather, every power and sub-power would have its own skill rating that would be individually boosted by using it.

Additionally, power trees were not all equivalent. The number of powers in a set and the ranges of effectiveness in a powerset were determined partially upon a character's origin. A magic ice powerset might have ten powers while a natural fighting set might have four.

By 2002, that system had been scrapped in favor of the experience levels and powersets that all had identical leveling structures, with origin strictly as flavor and minor story effect. By the end of the first year of live, they even had removed the unique origin-based opening stories, and relegated origin to an essentially "cosmetic" role.

Mister Hassenpheffer

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2018, 06:36:44 PM »
So Wildstar is going poof. I'm sure everyone already knows that. 

I know this one isn't really NcSoft's fault (not totally) but they really are living up to the reputation of being the kiss of death for games, even if it's by proxy.

Don't count on them for anything but negligent homicide. I guess.