Author Topic: City of Heroes 2  (Read 12707 times)

Thunder Glove

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2017, 01:10:08 PM »
Paragon Studios is gone. It has been gone since NCSoft shut down NCInteractive, Inc., it's holding company, in December 2012.

Yes, I know.  That was exactly the point I was making.

CoH was lightning in a bottle.  It was a happy accident.  It was the right people at the right time making the right game, and then even more of the right people making the right updates to that game.  (Okay, not always exactly right, but right frequently enough)

That will probably never happen again.  I just hope the Spiritual Successors can come close.

But I know damn well that NCSoft isn't going to make My Favorite Game Part 2 just by grabbing a random bunch of people to throw together some new engine and slapping the CoH name on it.

Vee

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2017, 03:33:09 PM »
I just hope for FourSpeed's sake that NCSoft doesn't decide to diversify into oxygen futures.

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2017, 04:48:32 PM »
Yes, I know.  That was exactly the point I was making.

CoH was lightning in a bottle.  It was a happy accident.  It was the right people at the right time making the right game, and then even more of the right people making the right updates to that game.  (Okay, not always exactly right, but right frequently enough)

That will probably never happen again.  I just hope the Spiritual Successors can come close.

But I know damn well that NCSoft isn't going to make My Favorite Game Part 2 just by grabbing a random bunch of people to throw together some new engine and slapping the CoH name on it.

I see this sentiment often but I don't think it's really true. As Miller said in one of his post CoX interviews the environment now is better for a superhero game then it was at any point during CoX's run, CoX shut down just as the post Avengers movie superhero craze was building. And only two superhero MMORPGs have followed CoX, CO which has an amazing character creator but is crippled by it's absolute garbage lore/writing and complete lack of anything productive to do once you hit max lvl and DCUO which failed to pull in most of   the group which formed the heart of CoX due to their flubbing of the character creator from launch and never bothering to expand it, it's also limited by how established the setting it is in is and the fact that the people making the game don't have control over the IP which limits the things they can do a lot.

The people working on it are the hardest thing to replicate because it was a passion project for so many of them but that is true for all of the successor projects as well and it's not inconceivable that NCsoft could reassemble large chunks of the old team.

The thing which made CoX stand out was creativity, both in that the devs weren't afraid to try new things not typically seen in the industry and that the game actually rewarded creative and original character builds which was perhaps the single most important factor in forming the games community.

That last one is something which games of all genres have been moving further and further away from every year it seems and most MMOs on the market right now actively punish innovation or see it's possibility as a design flaw to be avoided.

Yeah no game has even come close to taking up CoX's mantle in the five years since it died but no one has really even tried. It's wouldn't even be that hard for someone who was invested in the project if they got ample funding/support considering CoX has already served as a testbed for a lot of things they should do and even a couple things they should avoid.

I do understand the frustration and animosity directed at NCSOFT, and share a lot of it, but I also understand that the company is not a monolith, there are thousands of people working there most of which likely had nothing to do with CoX's closure and, while I am probably going to continue avoiding the company until it happens, if some of those people realize the company's mistake then create a game under the IP that remains true to the spirit of the original I am not pretty enough to avoid something which I would enjoy in a setting I love out of spite.

FourSpeed

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2017, 05:26:01 PM »
I just hope for FourSpeed's sake that NCSoft doesn't decide to diversify into oxygen futures.
I'm certain that won't be a problem.  NCsoft is nothing more than an insignificant gaming company with crappy business practices.  Apart from the occasions where I read these forums, I'm blissfully unaware of their activities or even their existence -- just the way I prefer it.    ;)

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AlphaFerret

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2017, 05:53:39 PM »
There is no way i could not play it....

LateNights

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2017, 09:53:37 AM »
If I had to place money on it I'd say they'd probably go with City of Heroes: Rebirth, I just used two as a general indicator of a sequel so everyone would instantly know what it was referring to.

 :)

I was joking - but a little truthful also, because MMOs are supposed to be the game, which to me a sequel doesn't seem to fit with that notion...

Ultimate15

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2017, 01:23:05 PM »
There is no way i could not play it....

These are literally my sentiments exactly. If a COH2 were to come out (or a City of Heroes: Rebirth, or whatever the title may be...) I would absolutely play it regardless of whom would be producing/owning the rights to it. Whether it be NCSoft directly, or a third party company...I'm there. And honestly - I think a lot of the former players whom are swearing up and down that they wouldn't touch it if NCSoft were attached would eventually crack and come back lol. Let's be real here, people  :roll:

In an ideal world, we would have COH2 ported over to the unreal engine and all of the same lore/zones/costumes etc. would just be built/expanded upon, as opposed to creating a new game that has altered or changed the fundamentals.

Now, regarding getting the original COH back - I don't think NCSoft will ever come around to selling that IP. I pray to God my pessimism is off with this, but I just can't see it happening. I actually think they're using the IP in another game title is even MORE of a sign that they won't be doing anything further with it - like, this is their way of saying "Okay, we will attempt to appease you by putting Statesman + GW in another game and hopefully this will shut ya'll up".

I know this idea has been tossed around before, and I can only fathom that this is just as unrealistic or unobtainable as any other route...but I really do think our best bet of getting the original COH back (at this stage) is for someone, ANYONE to find a way to code it all back together and start a massive private server (like a few other fallen titles have done). Something like what CW has done w/ PC - maybe expanding on that? I dunno. I know that's an insanely large undertaking that likely won't happen - but I really do think it's more likely to pull that off than for NCSoft to sell.

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Kaos Arcanna

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2017, 01:42:34 AM »

Gotta wonder if NcSoft could bring the game back even if they wanted to?

After five years, would even an image of the game would be in working order?


downix

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2017, 01:52:35 AM »
Gotta wonder if NcSoft could bring the game back even if they wanted to?

After five years, would even an image of the game would be in working order?
As I've said, *IF* I were NCSoft, I would first approach the passion projects which spun up from it's shutdown, with an eye to aquiring one. If successful, then retrofitting the older material to the new project, saving a lot of time and money.

However, it would then be an NCSoft product, and we all know how well that will go over.

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2017, 03:15:12 PM »
They'd have to build a new game from scratch regardless, they'd want to upgrade the tech so it doesn't really matter how much time has passed. A relaunch of the original exactly how it was could never be profitable today, too much time has passed to recapture enough of the old base and a game that old wouldn't draw in many new people at all. However the IP is more powerful than people think so a sequel with significant investment in it's development and a good ad campaign could do extremely well in today's superhero friendly market.

downix

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2017, 03:44:04 PM »
They'd have to build a new game from scratch regardless, they'd want to upgrade the tech so it doesn't really matter how much time has passed. A relaunch of the original exactly how it was could never be profitable today, too much time has passed to recapture enough of the old base and a game that old wouldn't draw in many new people at all. However the IP is more powerful than people think so a sequel with significant investment in it's development and a good ad campaign could do extremely well in today's superhero friendly market.
But they don't. The lions share of the work, the content, still exists in every copy of Paragon Chat. It is not a major challenge to extract, and convert, according to the Atlas Park Revised folk.

By tapping an existing team, the rampup time is saved, and if the under development gameplay is similar enough, it would further shorten time. Consider that Final Fantasy XIV ARR holds the record for fastest MMO ever developed (14 months), because they repurposed and reused all of the art assets from the original Final Fantasy XIV. New game engine, same assets, short development cycle. The same could be done here.

Zerohour

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2017, 07:54:44 PM »
That depends greatly on the amount of work needed. Remember, from scratch is a $40-$200 Million dollar expense, over 5-8 years. An under development title which could be repurposed would be a time and money saver for them.

The price you quoted for an MMO to start up from scratch has me a little worried since the forerunner of the" spiritual successors", City of Titans, is running on less that one million dollars based on what we know about their finances

downix

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2017, 08:14:19 PM »
The price you quoted for an MMO to start up from scratch has me a little worried since the forerunner of the" spiritual successors", City of Titans, is running on less that one million dollars based on what we know about their finances
Most of that is labor, keep in mind. Sometimes hundreds of employees, costing from high-5 to low-6 figures, over 5-8 years, the price adds up. Average, say, $80,000/year, 100 staff, 5 years == $40 million. CoT has almost all volunteer labor (we have used three contractors for specialized tasks), reducing this cost dramatically. I calculated out once that if we had been running a typical MMO studio, with the salaries expected, based on hours of labor invested by all of our volunteers, CoT would have, as of last November, run $16 million.

Consider the cost for a movie for a moment. Remove the payroll, and you can easily produce what looks like a Hollywood blockbuster for a token amount. And people have done just that (Safety not Guaranteed, Monsters, Moon, Primer, etc). Many of these cinematic shoestring masterpieces use deferred payments, with the cast and crew being paid out of the profits from the movie's release. In CoT's case, the volunteers are also the company's owners, so we get our "payout" from the game's release. I cannot tell you how any of the other projects are handling this, because I honestly don't know and even if I did it would be impolite to do so.

This is partially why MOBA's became so big for awhile, they take less time to develop. Less time == lower labor costs == lower budgets == sooner they can recoup the investment.  Cutting the labor cost from 5 years to two years goes a long way to reigning in production costs.

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2017, 04:59:21 AM »
Most of that is labor, keep in mind. Sometimes hundreds of employees, costing from high-5 to low-6 figures, over 5-8 years, the price adds up. Average, say, $80,000/year, 100 staff, 5 years == $40 million. CoT has almost all volunteer labor (we have used three contractors for specialized tasks), reducing this cost dramatically. I calculated out once that if we had been running a typical MMO studio, with the salaries expected, based on hours of labor invested by all of our volunteers, CoT would have, as of last November, run $16 million.

Consider the cost for a movie for a moment. Remove the payroll, and you can easily produce what looks like a Hollywood blockbuster for a token amount. And people have done just that (Safety not Guaranteed, Monsters, Moon, Primer, etc). Many of these cinematic shoestring masterpieces use deferred payments, with the cast and crew being paid out of the profits from the movie's release. In CoT's case, the volunteers are also the company's owners, so we get our "payout" from the game's release. I cannot tell you how any of the other projects are handling this, because I honestly don't know and even if I did it would be impolite to do so.

This is partially why MOBA's became so big for awhile, they take less time to develop. Less time == lower labor costs == lower budgets == sooner they can recoup the investment.  Cutting the labor cost from 5 years to two years goes a long way to reigning in production costs.

Yeah hopefully now that the market has hit saturation and some are caving studios will start trying different shit again. Probably not though, the industry was in a creative rut well before the MOBA craze.

Daemien

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2017, 11:04:59 AM »
I actually think they're using the IP in another game title is even MORE of a sign that they won't be doing anything further with it - like, this is their way of saying "Okay, we will attempt to appease you by putting Statesman + GW in another game and hopefully this will shut ya'll up".

What puzzles me a bit there that they are not "just reusing the IP". They are advertising MxM with Statesman.
... and I cannot find any reasonable enough reasons for that move.

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Ultimate15

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2017, 10:42:01 PM »
What puzzles me a bit there that they are not "just reusing the IP". They are advertising MxM with Statesman.
... and I cannot find any reasonable enough reasons for that move.

I think it's kinda simple: they're using him as a marketing ploy. They know that there are a ton of former COH players who are still dying to get pieces of the game back in some way/shape/form, so it would make sense for them to put him at the front tier of their promotional efforts.

He's someone they KNOW people want to see again.
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Abraxus

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2017, 12:08:51 AM »
I think it's kinda simple: they're using him as a marketing ploy. They know that there are a ton of former COH players who are still dying to get pieces of the game back in some way/shape/form, so it would make sense for them to put him at the front tier of their promotional efforts.

He's someone they KNOW people want to see again.

If I game them credit for knowing the American market at all, I would have attributed it to a malicious intent.  Showing us how they still have it, and if they have to trot things out a little at a time, just to keep the ember of hope burning, then they win again.  Since they don't know anything about the American market, I doubt it occurred to them.
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Mistress Urd

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2017, 03:32:53 AM »
I think it's kinda simple: they're using him as a marketing ploy. They know that there are a ton of former COH players who are still dying to get pieces of the game back in some way/shape/form, so it would make sense for them to put him at the front tier of their promotional efforts.

He's someone they KNOW people want to see again.

It has the opposite effect on me. Just convinces me NCSoft hates us and I refuse to give them any more money.

princezilla

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2017, 06:26:03 AM »
If I game them credit for knowing the American market at all, I would have attributed it to a malicious intent.  Showing us how they still have it, and if they have to trot things out a little at a time, just to keep the ember of hope burning, then they win again.  Since they don't know anything about the American market, I doubt it occurred to them.
It has the opposite effect on me. Just convinces me NCSoft hates us and I refuse to give them any more money.

Again, they are a game company, not some evil organization that feeds on human suffering and hates people who gave them money for years. Attributing malice to any of this is idiotic, it is at worst misguided.

kathena

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Re: City of Heroes 2
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2017, 11:25:21 AM »
Consider that Final Fantasy XIV ARR holds the record for fastest MMO ever developed (14 months), because they repurposed and reused all of the art assets from the original Final Fantasy XIV. New game engine, same assets, short development cycle. The same could be done here.

They did a hellish 2 year long micromanaged sprint: https://youtu.be/aoOI5R-6u8k This is the most relevant part of the documentary but it's a good watch all over.
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