Author Topic: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)  (Read 21282 times)

hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2017, 02:46:37 PM »
Last but, not least I couldn't tell which segment was Snyder and which segment was Whedon.

Basically, all the good character moments were Whedon and all the over-the-top bombastic crap was Snyder.   ;D

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11/18/justice-league-scenes-whedon-snyder/


Golden Girl

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2017, 04:24:09 PM »
This is a pretty amusing read - https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/11/20/the-question-for-justice-league-is-not-how-much-money-it-will-make-but-how-much-it-could-lose/#2b6b28f7c665 - if things work out nicely, it looks like WB could actually take a financial hit from this disaster.
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doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 05:18:52 PM »
I think they need to do what Sony did and have Marvel help make their films. Worked for Spider-man


saipaman

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2017, 05:23:42 PM »
An Arrowverse movie would have done better.

Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2017, 07:57:59 PM »
An Arrowverse movie would have done better.

/e shudder
/e grief
/e noooo

Golden Girl

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2017, 10:21:40 PM »
An Arrowverse movie would have done better.

At least next week we'll be getting a DC team up that will help wash that taste of this vile JL insult away.
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Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2017, 10:59:35 PM »
Like siphoning a septic tank to get rid of the taste from siphoning a gas tank?

Golden Girl

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2017, 11:08:35 PM »
Like siphoning a septic tank to get rid of the taste from siphoning a gas tank?

More along the lines of watching a live action comic rather than the deranged ramblings of a half-witted man-child.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 11:15:05 PM by Golden Girl »
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Golden Girl

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2017, 11:09:48 PM »
I seem to have double posted :P
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 11:15:25 PM by Golden Girl »
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Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2017, 12:14:07 AM »
as a longtime half-witted man-child i resent the comparison ;D

saipaman

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2017, 03:04:25 AM »
/e shudder
/e grief
/e noooo

Even if it was a total failure, an Arrowverse movie won't cost $300 million.

Arcana

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2017, 04:09:34 AM »
Saw JL over the weekend, and I'm still processing the movie.  I honestly can't rate the movie, because the movie is weirdly impossible for me to rate.

There's three different contexts you can watch this movie in.  First, you can watch it as a continuation of the first two movies (Man of Steel and BvS).  Its a horrible continuation of the previous two movies.  It shifts not just the tone but even the characters in very jarring ways from BvS and even to some degree Man of Steel.  If you see it as a continuation of the first two movies, the plot is a mess and the characters (that come from previous movies) are confused.  There's also no real payoff for being the third movie.

However, you could argue that we shouldn't look at it as a continuation of the previous two, that we should give Warner the benefit of the doubt that they want to change things from the previous two.  But if we look at the movie as a stand alone movie, then it has no center.  The plot and the characters come out of nowhere with almost nothing to explain what is going on.  It is not even remotely self-contained.  Without the prior two movies, the movie doesn't stand alone at all.  And that's not true for a movie like, say, The Avengers.  It was important to build up to that movie, so the prior movies connect very well with it.  But even if you ignore the previous movies, The Avengers is still a relatively self-contained movie.  You lose something without the character construction from the previous movies, but you don't fail to understand the story has a beginning, middle, and end.  You cannot say that about JL.

The only way to look at JL in a way that doesn't cause it to fall apart is as a soft reboot, a very, very soft reboot.  In comic book fashion, they've decided to build upon the prior works, but only take what they want and toss the rest.  They are basically dictating to us in JL what we should believe and what we should forget about the prior movies.

We should believe that Superman was a beloved world hero, even though BvS portrayed him as being held in suspicion by many, worshipped in an almost cult-like fashion by some, and called to be held responsible for his collateral acts by the powers that be.  He was mourned in BvS, but we never saw him as being a beacon of hope in BvS.  We should believe that Bruce Wayne is a tired burnout, but not a borderline manic warrior against crime, even though that directly contradicts BvS.

If we simply accept what we are told in BvS like a comic book retcon, then JL coalesces into a reasonably entertaining movie.  Wonder Woman is still great.  Jason Momoa's portrayal of Aquaman is pretty solid, and even the twitchy Flash in JL stays on the other side of annoying.  *IF* you are willing to let go of BvS, the movie is actually pretty enjoyable.

It is still flawed.  Warners directive to limit the movie to two hours hurts the movie.  It is obviously chopped up to make it fit the runtime.  The ending trivializes the entire first two thirds of the movie.  They may have painted themselves into a corner they shouldn't by making the final fight so very obviously overmatched in the way it was.

Is this Justice League one worth watching.  Well, I think it is a better Justice League than we were likely to get if we just extrapolate from BvS.  Its a decent attempt to course correct the franchise.  But the movie shows that the errors of the past are so severe that trying to straighten out the franchise in a single movie cracks and warps the DCEU in very obvious ways.

What I think JL tells me more than anything else is how absolutely wrong BvS is.  There is an alternate version of reality in which MoS, BvS, and JL form a cohesive whole that might not be loved by the fans and critics but at least not disliked as much.  It goes like this:

In Man of Steel, Clark starts off as he does in the movie, as an outsider who does not know his place in the world, and the only thing he does know is that he cannot walk away when people need help.  And then General Zod comes to Earth and forces him to make a choice: embrace his Kryptonian heritage or stand with the people of Earth where he lived all his life.  And in the end he decides to become the Superman of Earth, representing and protecting the humans who he has adopted as his new home.

BvS should have been the movie where Superman has fully embraced being Superman, and while there are those that fear or distrust him, the people of Earth have come to embrace his attempts to help all the people of the world, regardless of country or background.  The "little people" love him.  But Luthor preys on the powers that be convincing them that Superman is a threat.  Those powers that be include Bruce Wayne, who has seen the destruction and collateral damage that Superman caused in Gotham and while he can respect the good things he is doing now, he cannot shake the believe that without a failsafe Superman could become the biggest threat to humanity ever.  However, as Batman he eventually discovers that Luthor isn't researching a failsafe, he is trying to assassinate Superman by unleashing a Kryptonian biological weapon: Doomsday.  Batman tries to bring down Luthor himself but is forced to swallow his pride and go to Superman when Luthor becomes too powerful with Kryptonian technology for Batman alone to bring him down.  In the process Superman is killed, and in his guilt for being initially suckered into Luthor's plan Bruce decides its time for him to reenter the world and seek out these people with abilities, because its better to know them and work with them than not know anything about them and in his ignorance be vulnerable to manipulation by people like Luthor.

If this is the trajectory of MoS and BvS, then JL becomes the natural logical progression of the three movies.  Batman makes sense: he is trying to assemble the JL in part because of his visions, but also because he realizes that these people with abilities can be forces for good or bad, and he needs to know them well enough to tell them apart.  He also feels guilt about Superman, and it is that guilt that causes him to decide to do what he does in JL.

The ending of JL becomes the payoff for the movie.  Instead of the fight itself being the (weak) payoff, it is Bruce Wayne's willingness to put the fate of the world in the hands of metahumans that is the emotional payoff for the movie.  He knows he can't do this forever, but he can try to make sure the metahumans that can do this forever are the right ones, doing the right things for the right reasons, at least to him.

Then you have the Aquaman movie, WW2, the Flash and Cyborg movie, they beat Darkseid in JL2, you have a bunch more movies, and then you bring out JL: Tower of Babel, where all of Bruce's insecurities going all the way back to BvS and JL1 pay off.

Bottom line, I actually enjoyed watching Justice League, for all of its flaws.  It was a fun movie, in a way BvS was not.  But it highlights the fact that the DCEU is an incredible sequence of lost opportunities, and Warners still has no patience.  As long as Warners is impatient and Marvel thinks in terms of ten year story arcs, Disney is going to keep kicking Warners butt.

Its unfortunate that the story I want to see most is the story told in brief flashback: how Steppenwolf was turned back the first time.  *That* looked like an awesome story.

Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2017, 04:27:56 AM »
It is obviously chopped up to make it fit the runtime.

And yet Martha and Lois doing their best impersonation of a Colonial Penn life insurance commercial still made the cut.

The flashback part was fun though.

Golden Girl

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2017, 07:44:09 AM »
I honestly can't rate the movie

Neither can anyone with half a brain.
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ryuplaneswalker

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2017, 08:06:02 AM »
Neither can anyone with half a brain.

Fish out of 42?

hurple

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2017, 02:39:11 PM »
Fish out of 42?

Beetle out of 52.

It's DC, not Hitchhiker's Guide.



doc7924

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2017, 03:53:55 PM »
Saw JL over the weekend, and I'm still processing the movie.  I honestly can't rate the movie, because the movie is weirdly impossible for me to rate.

There's three different contexts you can watch this movie in.  First, you can watch it as a continuation of the first two movies (Man of Steel and BvS).  Its a horrible continuation of the previous two movies.  It shifts not just the tone but even the characters in very jarring ways from BvS and even to some degree Man of Steel.  If you see it as a continuation of the first two movies, the plot is a mess and the characters (that come from previous movies) are confused.  There's also no real payoff for being the third movie.

However, you could argue that we shouldn't look at it as a continuation of the previous two, that we should give Warner the benefit of the doubt that they want to change things from the previous two.  But if we look at the movie as a stand alone movie, then it has no center.  The plot and the characters come out of nowhere with almost nothing to explain what is going on.  It is not even remotely self-contained.  Without the prior two movies, the movie doesn't stand alone at all.  And that's not true for a movie like, say, The Avengers.  It was important to build up to that movie, so the prior movies connect very well with it.  But even if you ignore the previous movies, The Avengers is still a relatively self-contained movie.  You lose something without the character construction from the previous movies, but you don't fail to understand the story has a beginning, middle, and end.  You cannot say that about JL.

The only way to look at JL in a way that doesn't cause it to fall apart is as a soft reboot, a very, very soft reboot.  In comic book fashion, they've decided to build upon the prior works, but only take what they want and toss the rest.  They are basically dictating to us in JL what we should believe and what we should forget about the prior movies.

We should believe that Superman was a beloved world hero, even though BvS portrayed him as being held in suspicion by many, worshipped in an almost cult-like fashion by some, and called to be held responsible for his collateral acts by the powers that be.  He was mourned in BvS, but we never saw him as being a beacon of hope in BvS.  We should believe that Bruce Wayne is a tired burnout, but not a borderline manic warrior against crime, even though that directly contradicts BvS.

If we simply accept what we are told in BvS like a comic book retcon, then JL coalesces into a reasonably entertaining movie.  Wonder Woman is still great.  Jason Momoa's portrayal of Aquaman is pretty solid, and even the twitchy Flash in JL stays on the other side of annoying.  *IF* you are willing to let go of BvS, the movie is actually pretty enjoyable.

It is still flawed.  Warners directive to limit the movie to two hours hurts the movie.  It is obviously chopped up to make it fit the runtime.  The ending trivializes the entire first two thirds of the movie.  They may have painted themselves into a corner they shouldn't by making the final fight so very obviously overmatched in the way it was.

Is this Justice League one worth watching.  Well, I think it is a better Justice League than we were likely to get if we just extrapolate from BvS.  Its a decent attempt to course correct the franchise.  But the movie shows that the errors of the past are so severe that trying to straighten out the franchise in a single movie cracks and warps the DCEU in very obvious ways.

What I think JL tells me more than anything else is how absolutely wrong BvS is.  There is an alternate version of reality in which MoS, BvS, and JL form a cohesive whole that might not be loved by the fans and critics but at least not disliked as much.  It goes like this:

In Man of Steel, Clark starts off as he does in the movie, as an outsider who does not know his place in the world, and the only thing he does know is that he cannot walk away when people need help.  And then General Zod comes to Earth and forces him to make a choice: embrace his Kryptonian heritage or stand with the people of Earth where he lived all his life.  And in the end he decides to become the Superman of Earth, representing and protecting the humans who he has adopted as his new home.

BvS should have been the movie where Superman has fully embraced being Superman, and while there are those that fear or distrust him, the people of Earth have come to embrace his attempts to help all the people of the world, regardless of country or background.  The "little people" love him.  But Luthor preys on the powers that be convincing them that Superman is a threat.  Those powers that be include Bruce Wayne, who has seen the destruction and collateral damage that Superman caused in Gotham and while he can respect the good things he is doing now, he cannot shake the believe that without a failsafe Superman could become the biggest threat to humanity ever.  However, as Batman he eventually discovers that Luthor isn't researching a failsafe, he is trying to assassinate Superman by unleashing a Kryptonian biological weapon: Doomsday.  Batman tries to bring down Luthor himself but is forced to swallow his pride and go to Superman when Luthor becomes too powerful with Kryptonian technology for Batman alone to bring him down.  In the process Superman is killed, and in his guilt for being initially suckered into Luthor's plan Bruce decides its time for him to reenter the world and seek out these people with abilities, because its better to know them and work with them than not know anything about them and in his ignorance be vulnerable to manipulation by people like Luthor.

If this is the trajectory of MoS and BvS, then JL becomes the natural logical progression of the three movies.  Batman makes sense: he is trying to assemble the JL in part because of his visions, but also because he realizes that these people with abilities can be forces for good or bad, and he needs to know them well enough to tell them apart.  He also feels guilt about Superman, and it is that guilt that causes him to decide to do what he does in JL.

The ending of JL becomes the payoff for the movie.  Instead of the fight itself being the (weak) payoff, it is Bruce Wayne's willingness to put the fate of the world in the hands of metahumans that is the emotional payoff for the movie.  He knows he can't do this forever, but he can try to make sure the metahumans that can do this forever are the right ones, doing the right things for the right reasons, at least to him.

Then you have the Aquaman movie, WW2, the Flash and Cyborg movie, they beat Darkseid in JL2, you have a bunch more movies, and then you bring out JL: Tower of Babel, where all of Bruce's insecurities going all the way back to BvS and JL1 pay off.

Bottom line, I actually enjoyed watching Justice League, for all of its flaws.  It was a fun movie, in a way BvS was not.  But it highlights the fact that the DCEU is an incredible sequence of lost opportunities, and Warners still has no patience.  As long as Warners is impatient and Marvel thinks in terms of ten year story arcs, Disney is going to keep kicking Warners butt.

Its unfortunate that the story I want to see most is the story told in brief flashback: how Steppenwolf was turned back the first time.  *That* looked like an awesome story.

Avengers worked because we had each hero built up in at least one film before they teamed up. So we got to know the characters.

in JL - we only have seen Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. We are seeing all the others for the first time in a team film and not getting a grip on the characters in solo films like Marvel.

It worked for Spider-Man in Civil War, but that was a special case.

I think DC is now trying to rush things along to catch up with Marvel and its not working.

ryuplaneswalker

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2017, 11:08:21 PM »
Quote
I think DC is now trying to rush things along to catch up with Marvel and its not working.

They could have had a movie for Flash and Cyborg both but it wouldn't have helped. Wonder Woman being good was an aberration.

Arcana

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2017, 11:11:41 PM »
And yet Martha and Lois doing their best impersonation of a Colonial Penn life insurance commercial still made the cut.

That scene was necessary to connect to the ending.

I don't fault them that scene.  I remember when people were complaining about the farmhouse scene in Age of Ultron.  It was a little bit of a pacing problem, but those quiet character moments are necessary to remind the audience that the main characters are people with weaknesses and vulnerabilities and lives of their own.  A lot of people bemoaned that scene, but many Marvel fans are wondering where Hawkeye's family is given he's technically now an outlaw on the run.  Far fewer people are going to be wondering what Cyborg or even Wonder Woman is doing between movies after coming out of JL.  Maybe that scene was a weakness of Age of Ultron as cinematic work.  But as a continuing story, those scenes pay off in hard to quantify ways.

The Justice League is composed of even more god-like and difficult to relate to characters than the Marvel movies.  Even moreso they need to be grounded in some way.  The scene you are referring to felt clumsy to me, but the ending seemed appropriate and the scene with them together was necessary to connect to the ending.  That scene isn't "right" but it isn't wrong either in my opinion.  It is one more thing that goes wrong because the studio demanded a 120 minute cut, because they didn't want the movie to underperform, because they are paying for the mistakes of previous movies.

Warners needs to recognize that their mistakes aren't in what the movies contain, but what they don't contain.  It is about their approach, which is that they are trying to swing and hit nothing but home runs right from the start.  The whole idea of making a Batman vs Superman movie early in the cycle points to this failure to understand the big picture.  I think if JL does anything right it is that it takes a longer view of things.  It isn't about the big payoff and the cinematic moment.  Ironically, that's what movie audiences wanted after three movies, and why I think many were disappointed by JL.  The first time Marvel brought the Avengers together, the world was invaded by an army lead by one of the MCU's favorite villains, set the two strongest MCU heroes against each other, put the biggest fight to date in the middle of New York, and saw its most popular narcissist hero nearly sacrifice his life to save the world.  The first time Warners brings the Justice League together, it is to introduce Aquaman and Flash and talk about the most dangerous villain in the history of the world that subsequently gets stomped on in a way that I found genuinely insane.

Vee

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Re: Justice League (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2017, 12:09:21 AM »
It was just an awkward scene. 6 academy award nominations worth of cringeworthy. Really though it's been 2 movies now where they've been paying for casting Amy Adams as Lois. They have to justify casting a top name with scenes but they don't really have much for her to do except watch Clark fight and look worried. Most of her scenes feel tacked on which contributes to the disjointedness they already have going in spades.