Author Topic: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)  (Read 1856 times)

saipaman

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2018, 01:44:32 AM »
All this makes me wish Lucas did his original plan and did the prequels and sequel a lot sooner.

Since the Phantom Menace the Star Wars films just don't have the same magic for me as the three originals.

I always loved in the original that the Force was a magical thing that maybe anyone could tap into and use.

Then PM ruined that by making the Force bound to some mico organisms, so if you haven't got 'em in your system - "NO Force for You!"

So now instead of "May the Force be with You" it should be "May the Midichlorians be in You"

They lost faith and had to die. 

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2018, 04:00:58 PM »
All this makes me wish Lucas did his original plan and did the prequels and sequel a lot sooner.

Since the Phantom Menace the Star Wars films just don't have the same magic for me as the three originals.

I always loved in the original that the Force was a magical thing that maybe anyone could tap into and use.

Then PM ruined that by making the Force bound to some mico organisms, so if you haven't got 'em in your system - "NO Force for You!"

So now instead of "May the Force be with You" it should be "May the Midichlorians be in You"

That's not really correct - midi-chlorians were in all living organisms, and life couldn't exist without them - so any living creature could access the Force.

As for the science vs magic angle of the Force, the prequels actually added way more mysticism to the Force than was present in the original trilogy.
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Tenzhi

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2018, 10:00:41 PM »
Finally just saw this.  It was... alright.  It feels very much like a bridge.  That salt planet was a lovely and well used set piece.  The worst part of the movie continues to be Kylo Ren.  He's like all the worst prequel Anakin bits channeled through a darkity dark teen romance garbage novel.
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Power Arc X

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2018, 02:36:11 AM »
   I hated TFA. It felt like it was Andy from Toy Story playing  with his toys at the beginning of Toy Story. A child's imagination  being made into a film. JJ  Abrams  only knows how to copy and  make things bigger. A bigger Enterprise and a  bigger  Death  Star. I could go on and on but it  wouldn't  matter seeing  how  the movies are  already made.
    I did enjoy some parts of  the  Finn  and  Rose storyline.
    Can anyone  tell me how the trio of  Finn, Poe  and Rey are supposed  to  be  friends  when Finn is the only  one  who interacts with both Poe and  Rey ? Poe and  Rey  have no real interaction  with  each  other.
   

Tenzhi

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2018, 11:41:19 AM »
I haven't seen that Poe and Rey are all that friendly.  Indeed, when they bumped into each other in TLJ he was like "hi, I'm Poe" and she was like "sure, okay, whatevs".  That's paraphrasing, of course, but I recall being amused that he kinda got the brush off.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2018, 05:02:51 AM »
I saw this movie when it first came out, but I really didn't feel like I had anything interesting to say about it.  But I was discussing the movie with a friend recently when my thoughts about it finally coalesced in my brain.

Overall, I did enjoy the movie in the theater a moderate amount, however, I was uncomfortable in the theater the entire time, and the reason was because I had to literally turn my brain off during the movie.  The movie is full of individual scenes that are fun to watch in thirty second increments, but are completely nonsensical when taken as a whole.

That made the movie far less enjoyable than it could have or should have been.  I don't entirely like The Last Jedi, but I've come to really hate Rian Johnson.

For me, the entire movie seemed to be Rian Johnson trying to prove that nothing tells him what to do, not the canon of the series he's making a movie in, not even the plot of the previous movie in the series, not logic or common sense, not any sense of plot or story, nothing.  And quite frankly I found it annoying whenever I allowed it to leak into my perceptions of the movie.

The opening of the movie sets the tone for the rest of the film.  Luke Skywalker's reaction to Rey handing him his old light saber is practically a middle finger to the audience.  That's Rian Johnson saying "I know you care about this, but I don't care about this, so screw this." 

Its hard to describe all the problems in the movie without spoilers.  Finn and Rose's mission to planet Vegas is completely ridiculous: it make the entire point of the resistance chase practically meaningless.  That awesome tactic Admiral Holdo pulls near the end?  That's awesome for the four seconds it takes to wonder why they didn't do that when they had more ships.  And when you think about what her plan actually was, if I was Poe I would have shot her in the head, because that plan could not possibly work if the First Order had one single person anywhere in their fleet with a brain.

It seemed like every single scene in TFA was a page torn from a giant set of a thousand different scripts for a thousand different movies, shuffled into random order.  The scenes do not make sense to exist in the same movie.  They might have worked in a different movie, but not in this one.  When Rose saves Finn near the end of the movie, I actually wished the entire rest of the resistance was killed right at that moment so she had to live with that eventuality, because she is dumber than spackle.  Maybe the love conquerors all theme could have worked in a different movie, but again, not in this one.

I cannot think of one thing that happens in this movie that isn't completely undercut or contradicted by another thing that happens in this movie.  The movie itself indicts the rest of the movie.  Leonard Shelby could enjoy this movie.  I could only enjoy it by forgetting that there was a rest of the movie, for every scene in the movie.

I don't think I've ever had a reaction like that to a movie, and I've watched thousands of movies.

Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2018, 05:06:54 AM »
   I hated TFA. It felt like it was Andy from Toy Story playing  with his toys at the beginning of Toy Story. A child's imagination  being made into a film. JJ  Abrams  only knows how to copy and  make things bigger. A bigger Enterprise and a  bigger  Death  Star. I could go on and on but it  wouldn't  matter seeing  how  the movies are  already made.
    I did enjoy some parts of  the  Finn  and  Rose storyline.
    Can anyone  tell me how the trio of  Finn, Poe  and Rey are supposed  to  be  friends  when Finn is the only  one  who interacts with both Poe and  Rey ? Poe and  Rey  have no real interaction  with  each  other.
   


The Force Awakens is not the greatest Star Wars movie, but I find myself hoping that he somehow fixes Star Wars by doing to Rian Johnson what Rian Johnson did to him: give TLJ the middle finger and ignore it completely when making the next film.  I would literally not feel bad if at the start of Episode Nine we discover that Episode Eight was a bedtime story told to a child by a resistance fighter with a head injury that messes with his memory.

Vee

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2018, 09:24:59 AM »
Heard today that the Social Security Administration said the fastest growing name in the US is Kylo. What exactly would you be hoping for in naming your kid that? Might as well name the kid "Whiny Oedipus".

Tahquitz

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2018, 03:05:24 AM »
If you don't want a Star Trek Discovery spoiler... No comment.

If you don't care...

Spoiler for Hidden:
I imagine a much smaller contingent naming their kid Lorca after the last few episodes of Star Trek: Discovery for the same reason.
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Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2018, 03:07:42 AM »
Heard today that the Social Security Administration said the fastest growing name in the US is Kylo. What exactly would you be hoping for in naming your kid that? Might as well name the kid "Whiny Oedipus".

I would never do that to a child, but I don't think Kylo is a bad character in the two "saga" movies.  I actually think he has the most potential.  Yes he was a bit emo in TFA, but he seems to have outgrown that in TLJ.  Kylo seems to actually have an arc.  It is a dark twisted arc, but you know how there's that trope about how you have to kill your parents to grow up, and then you become your parents?  That's usually metaphor, but Kylo literally kills his father to escape the large shadow that is cast over him.  A "good guy" Kylo would probably want to figuratively kill his super famous parents to escape their shadow as well.  Kylo is the dark side of that.  And in TLJ, he is no longer a whining emo kid.  He's looking to take the next step on his path from killing his parents to escape them to surpassing his grandfather who he once idolized.

In fact, the scene in the movie that I think turns Kylo into a real person is the scene in TLJ where Snoke taunts him with the image of his grandfather Darth Vader.  What Kylo does after that is I think a very real moment where he realizes that just like Han held him back, his overidolization of Vader also holds him back, and I think that's the moment when Kylo decides what his end game is going to be.  He decides he is going to destroy everything that can be turned against him, and build something entirely of his own.

In a sense, Kylo has flipped the hero's journey upside down and created its opposite: the villain's journey.  I'm not saying it is perfect story execution, but this is way better than how Anakin Skywalker was handled in the prequels. 

Tenzhi

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2018, 06:15:37 AM »
I think you're giving Kylo too much credit.  I think he lashed out at Snoke like an over emotional teen, just as he did later when confronted by Luke.  He sidetracked an entire army like a whiny brat given too much power.  They spent all that time trying to build him up into Mr. Misunderstood, Darth Broody the romantic dark teen icon, and then tossed it out the window with tantrums.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2018, 09:36:27 AM »
I think you're giving Kylo too much credit.  I think he lashed out at Snoke like an over emotional teen, just as he did later when confronted by Luke.  He sidetracked an entire army like a whiny brat given too much power.  They spent all that time trying to build him up into Mr. Misunderstood, Darth Broody the romantic dark teen icon, and then tossed it out the window with tantrums.

That seems to be a direct contradiction.  They built up Kylo to be exactly what he was: someone Luke could goad like an inexperienced child.  But that's exactly what he ought to be at this point.  Arcs have to be continuous, or they are not arcs.  There has to be something in between here and there, and that's where Kylo is at the end of TLJ.

What would you expect Mr. Misunderstood Darth Broody to do in that situation?  Channel Patton?

And it seems clear from the way Kylo speaks to Rey that he did not lash out at Snoke impulsively.  He wasn't certain until the moment came, but its obvious he thought things through very carefully.  In fact, he had to be in complete control of his emotions at the end, or Snoke would have seen right through him.  Instead, he was able to confuse Snoke by focusing simultaneously on Rey and his own actions, and Snoke incorrectly added two and two and got five.

Tenzhi

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2018, 11:22:39 AM »
What would you expect Mr. Misunderstood Darth Broody to do in that situation?  Channel Patton?

If he had grown beyond the emo, as you say, I'd expect him to leave the military to do their thing while he confronted Luke in a less berserker rage kinda fashion.  You know - show that he's actually grown.  Without that growth, it's not an arc so much as a straight line.  With that growth, one might consider that he knew what game Snoke was playing and was using the situation and Rey to get to Snoke while potentially getting a powerful ally on the hook that he could manipulate to his own ends.  But it seems far more likely that Kylo was just inspired to action because he thought he had found someone who could understand him, and that Snoke missed it because he really wasn't all that powerful - just a puffed up redshirted Grima, to be disposed of unceremoniously. 
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Kaos Arcanna

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2018, 03:52:06 PM »
Snoke WAS powerful and he played a long game. He corrupted Ben Solo from childhood, and he was so certain of his creation that he didn't for one moment consider that Kylo could possibly betray him.

He clearly overpowered Rey ... overrode her ability to use the Force and tore through her mind to find Luke ... something that Kylo couldn't do.

But he wasn't a god, and he DID underestimate Ben Solo.

The thing is, Kylo ISN'T a long term thinker. Or much of a thinker at all, honestly. He's been so powerful most of his life that he hasn't had to think strategically.  You don't learn to be subtle when you've never had to be.

He's a bit fit for the First Order. He doesn't relate well to people. He doesn't know how to properly use his forces. He's a good pilot and a powerful Force wielder, but I wouldn't trust him to lead a Boy Scout troop let alone an army.




CG

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2018, 02:58:36 PM »
I have had a realization about the Star Wars franchise and why it might be hitting some rocks with TLJ.

Fundamentally, Star Wars is a nostalgia property.  Even the original in 1977 was a nostalgia movie to pulp serials and 1940's movies.  It was about giving the audience what they have had before in creative ways.  The stories and tropes in the movies were always predictable.  What made them original is how they were put together, the effects and overall production values.  It's all about what was awesome in the past, whether it's old movies, old stories or history within the franchise.

In TLJ, Rian  Johnson has gone out of his way to destroy all of that.  Subvert expectations, cut off old plot threads as irrelevant, make big changes to old characters, etc.  You can argue about whether this is a good idea for the franchise or not, but he's not been following the pattern for the main Star Wars movies.  The number one thing for keeping people happy is to manage expectations.  If people are expecting movie #8 in the series to be the same style as the previous 7, you're going to be fighting up hill from the get-go.

Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2018, 10:28:56 PM »
If he had grown beyond the emo, as you say, I'd expect him to leave the military to do their thing while he confronted Luke in a less berserker rage kinda fashion.  You know - show that he's actually grown.  Without that growth, it's not an arc so much as a straight line.  With that growth, one might consider that he knew what game Snoke was playing and was using the situation and Rey to get to Snoke while potentially getting a powerful ally on the hook that he could manipulate to his own ends.  But it seems far more likely that Kylo was just inspired to action because he thought he had found someone who could understand him, and that Snoke missed it because he really wasn't all that powerful - just a puffed up redshirted Grima, to be disposed of unceremoniously.

I think you are conflating bad judgment with being emo.  Are you saying that anyone who acted as Kylo did, giving impulsive commands to an armed force, is emo?

Plus, when you say you expected some particular behavior at that moment to show growth, why would his character growth hinge solely on that moment?  Why would it negate any other character change prior to that moment?

Arcana

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2018, 10:33:47 PM »
I have had a realization about the Star Wars franchise and why it might be hitting some rocks with TLJ.

Fundamentally, Star Wars is a nostalgia property.  Even the original in 1977 was a nostalgia movie to pulp serials and 1940's movies.  It was about giving the audience what they have had before in creative ways.  The stories and tropes in the movies were always predictable.  What made them original is how they were put together, the effects and overall production values.  It's all about what was awesome in the past, whether it's old movies, old stories or history within the franchise.

In TLJ, Rian  Johnson has gone out of his way to destroy all of that.  Subvert expectations, cut off old plot threads as irrelevant, make big changes to old characters, etc.  You can argue about whether this is a good idea for the franchise or not, but he's not been following the pattern for the main Star Wars movies.  The number one thing for keeping people happy is to manage expectations.  If people are expecting movie #8 in the series to be the same style as the previous 7, you're going to be fighting up hill from the get-go.

I think one thing Rian Johnson fails to realize that perhaps runs parallel to your observation is that Rian Johnson thinks Star Wars is science fiction, when he's simply straight up wrong and it is actually fantasy.

So much of TLJ is not in my opinion bad, it is *wrong*.  Those aren't the same thing.  Bad cinema is technically incorrect: it is shot poorly, it is paced poorly, it is confusing, it is boring, it is unentertaining.  Bad cinema would be bad anywhere.  But a lot of TLJ is wrong: it isn't shot poorly or looks awful or is wildly unentertaining taken in small scope: it feels like it doesn't belong in a Star Wars movie.

Of course, there is a lot of bad in there in my opinion also, but there's a lot of bad in the prequels that isn't wrong.  Just bad.

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2018, 05:32:29 AM »
So much of TLJ is not in my opinion bad, it is *wrong*.  Those aren't the same thing.  Bad cinema is technically incorrect: it is shot poorly, it is paced poorly, it is confusing, it is boring, it is unentertaining.  Bad cinema would be bad anywhere.  But a lot of TLJ is wrong: it isn't shot poorly or looks awful or is wildly unentertaining taken in small scope: it feels like it doesn't belong in a Star Wars movie.

I'm going to use that now, cause that's the best way I've seen my own feelings described.

Tenzhi

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2018, 12:50:55 PM »
I think you are conflating bad judgment with being emo.  Are you saying that anyone who acted as Kylo did, giving impulsive commands to an armed force, is emo?

Plus, when you say you expected some particular behavior at that moment to show growth, why would his character growth hinge solely on that moment?  Why would it negate any other character change prior to that moment?

Depends on the emotion they showed while doing it.  If they acted like a raging screamo child while doing it, then likely yes.

If he's going to show that he's grown, then what better place than the climactic moment when he's confronted with the looming shadow of his childhood?  The perfect place to show that maybe the earlier bid for freedom from Snoke was more than just a spur of the moment thing.  As it was, that moment seemed more to me like a laser focussed "save the girl because of twisted love" kinda thing and there was no growth.  He remains a damaged child, and he showed that when confronted by Luke. 
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Dev7on

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Re: The Last Jedi (Possible Spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2018, 11:46:55 PM »
Hey guys check out what HISHE did to fix the movie. It makes more sense than the original and it's also satisfying.  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ