Author Topic: The Death of 32-bit  (Read 8741 times)

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
The Death of 32-bit
« on: June 01, 2018, 09:00:11 PM »
Wow, that's how out of date I am. I kept wondering why my Nvidia drivers never were updating.... Nvidia dropped support for 32-bit. As in Windows 32-bit.

I really need to update my tech anyway and have been planning to plan to do so already... But you know what, I was going to stick with 32-bit just because it works.

Have they really stabilized 64-bit to the point where it's so stable that Nvidia can completely drop support for 32-bit? Windows 64-bit traditionally has been a pain in the ass.

I dunno what to do. It's not worthwhile to wipe out my machine and upgrade to Windows 7 64-bit just so I can update my video drivers again. Since I plan to replace about everything that's in my PC, anyway, I'll qualify for an OEM version 10 of Windows.

A quick google (google ads..) told me that I can get a Full (not OEM..) Version of Windows 10 Pro for 40 bucks?? Really? Because it sucks that bad or because I didn't google a good place to buy from...?

Blah I don't want to use an even more bloated version of Windows when I already have one that works..

*sigh*

I have become one of those people I never understood. I've always had the latest version of Windows. When Vista came out, had it. 7 came out, got it. Everything past version 2 point...whatever it was, to 3, to 3.11 Windows for Worgroups,,, and up. I even had Windows Millennium. But then I got 7 and ... I've been happy! It works.. Plus, every new version of Windows is more bloated than the last, so, why give up the gold I already have. I have become 'one of those people' that got stuck on a version of Windows because they like it and it works.

Help!

lol

*sigh*

I guess I'll update to 10, finally, when I build a new PC, finally. Which hopefully will be before Gaming Season which starts, here, ~ Nov 1.

Any advices?
Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Tahquitz

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2018, 02:36:13 AM »
If its an Amazon listing, read it more carefully, it's NOT sold by Microsoft.  Buyer beware.  You can upgrade from Windows 10 Home to Pro in the Windows Store, but it's $99 to cover the difference.  (It costs $119.99 for Home, and $199.99 to buy Pro for a new machine without upgrading, so Microsoft dings you 19.99 for making the decision later versus at the start.)

NVidia is still issuing Security Updates for 32-bit systems, but not new features such as NVidia Experience, VR, etc. (Stuff I don't use anyway, personally.)  Why changing Windows 7 to 64-bit at all might be worth it: in January 2019, NVidia is dropping the full kill-switch on 32-bit, ending even the security updates.

ALSO: Intel is rumored to be dropping 32-bit support from new processors in 2020.  With the die shrink slowdown getting worse (barely seeing 10nm processors emerge in China now), Intel has to axe something to make room for the new transistors.  This wouldn't mean that current 32-bit computers will stop working, but new systems will be 64-bit only going forward.  This also means an end to BIOS and MBR boot drives as UEFI and GPT formats replace it on new systems made from 2020 onwards.  32-bit Windows ISOs will likely be available for at least another 5-7 years as the 32 bit systems dwindle down in use.

Finally, Windows 7 will see an end to security updates (Extended support) also on January 2020.

If you're buying a new system to replace your current one, none of this matters.  Just replace the PC.  And don't worry about these changes until January 2020. 

If you want your current system to keep getting updates and don't intend to upgrade, reinstalling Windows 7 to 64-bit will work to keep it rolling for 2019, but only for a year.  (There's no fee to reinstall 64-bit Windows on a 32-bit system, but Full Install is your only choice.  You can't upgrade 32-bit to 64-bit and keep your installed programs intact.)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 07:21:13 PM by Tahquitz »
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2018, 05:53:32 AM »
Damn, T.... That is highly informative.

I knew Windows 7 support had to be coming to an end...eventually and probably soonish. What a great OS, though! As far as 'it just works', and bulletproofness and simplicity goes, I am happy with my customized and long used Windows 7 and have no reason to want to use anything else. For a change.

Wiping everything out just to install an OS (Windows 7 64-bit) to give me updated video drivers for another year and a half isn't appealing to me at this point. Especially when I can probly use the old driver at least that long, and, hope to upgrade my PC by the end of the year. Like on a Cyber Monday, finally.

Whenever I upgrade Windows I'll be building a new PC, sooo, I can at least qualify for an OEM. I dunno what Windows 7 buys me, upgradewise, or if 7 just qualifies me for a discount on a Windows 8 upgrade.. I never have had a Windows version so out of date. An OEM would probably be cheaper than an upgrade if I remember right, anyway. 10 is what I'll upgrade to unless I take so long they come out with 11.. : D


This also means an end to BIOS and MBR boot drives as UEFI and GPT formats replace it on new systems made from 2020 onwards. 

I have no idea what UEFI and GPT are but I am guessing they are emulators of some sort.. At first, I thought you were saying that BIOS and MBR were going away and I just stared for a second with my jaw open just a little. "First hard drives are obsolete, then 32-bit, now this!"

I just hope 64-bit Windows works, finally. Didn't STO 64-bit have to get patched and still need patches. Isn't that always what happens with Windows 64-bit.... I mean, who doesn't want double the data path, but, my stuff runs pretty fast right now on an old PC and everything.... *works*

And yes, as we all know, Amiga had 64-bit 30 years ago and managed to put it in a gaming PC that would look good, today, and sold it for $500 in stores. It's not new tech or the wild unknown. It just seemed to never work for MS.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 06:01:33 AM by Xev »
Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Exxar

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2018, 11:14:11 PM »
Heh, computers really do cause different, completely random and inexplicable problems for different people. For example I have never yet heard that there was any kind of trouble with 64-bit windows, not from the internet at large, not from my friends, not from work, and I've myself had 64-bit windows since I bought my first 64-bit CPU, what was it, 10 years ago now? But on the other hand, I always have some kind of internet connection problems, no matter where I live, which ISP I have and which computer I use.

Tahquitz

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2018, 11:47:31 PM »
Whenever I upgrade Windows I'll be building a new PC, sooo, I can at least qualify for an OEM. I dunno what Windows 7 buys me, upgradewise, or if 7 just qualifies me for a discount on a Windows 8 upgrade.. I never have had a Windows version so out of date. An OEM would probably be cheaper than an upgrade if I remember right, anyway. 10 is what I'll upgrade to unless I take so long they come out with 11.. : D

Windows 8.1 meets the apocalypse on 2023 (Windows 8 works if you have it, but you need to update to the free 8.1 ASAP after installation).  Not much longer, but if getting a new PC is 2-3 years away rather than 1-2, that might be a plan.  Just a huge change from Windows 7.

The only difference between OEM and Retail Windows copies is support.  Retail copies offer installation support for free, OEM & "System Builder" copies, you're on your own.  ("You will be required to supply support for the customers you sell the finished computers for in your OEM business.")  If you're okay with that outcome, OEM does the job...

Quote
I have no idea what UEFI and GPT are but I am guessing they are emulators of some sort.. At first, I thought you were saying that BIOS and MBR were going away and I just stared for a second with my jaw open just a little. "First hard drives are obsolete, then 32-bit, now this!"

BIOS/UEFI are the systems that start a PC.  GPT (GUID Partition Tables) and MBR (Master Boot Record) are ways to lay out a hard drive (not necessarily format, you can have a FAT32 GPT hard drive as well as a NTFS GPT hard drive.)  GPT layouts work with UEFI primarily.  BIOS works with MBR primarily.

The "Secure Boot" setting when disabled (Legacy Boot) let your UEFI system pretend it's BIOS to trick MBR drives to boot normally.  With Intel discarding BIOS and Legacy Mode, GPT will be the only method to layout a hard drive on future systems. 

For most computer users, it'll be just as confusing as when 16-bit gave way to 32-bit systems, except society took longer to make 64-bit architecture the norm.  This will be seen as a cash grab initially when the mainstream catches this, except a good portion of the market who have bought systems in the last 3-6 years are already good to go.  And your BIOS centric system will still boot after 2020.

Edited: 32-bit EOL with Intel is a rumor, projected by others dropping it (NVidia, no Linux support, Apple also dropped it back in 2012).  UEFI replacing BIOS is fact.  Sorry about the mixup. -Tahquitz
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 07:27:47 PM by Tahquitz »
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2018, 11:47:34 PM »
The only difference between OEM and Retail Windows copies is support.  Retail copies offer installation support for free, OEM & "System Builder" copies, you're on your own.  ("You will be required to supply support for the customers you sell the finished computers for in your OEM business.")  If you're okay with that outcome, OEM does the job...


OEM can be a pain in the butt, too. For example... if you change 'too much' hardware in your PC within a given amount of time, in the past anyway, it results in a call to Microsoft, convincing someone that you're still the same person and this is still the same PC - just with new stuff in it. OEM can be a pain in other ways I'm not recalling right now, I'm sure, too. But.. it's generally always like 50 bucks... so.. it might be a place for me to cut corners.


BIOS/UEFI are the systems that start a PC.  GPT (GUID Partition Tables) and MBR (Master Boot Record) are ways to lay out a hard drive (not necessarily format, you can have a FAT32 GPT hard drive as well as a NTFS GPT hard drive.)  GPT layouts work with UEFI primarily.  BIOS works with MBR primarily.

The "Secure Boot" setting when disabled (Legacy Boot) let your UEFI system pretend it's BIOS to trick MBR drives to boot normally.  With Intel discarding BIOS and Legacy Mode, GPT will be the only method to layout a hard drive on future systems. 



I shouldn't have said emulators earlier... I should have said... Boot Partitions..

I'm still confused. You're saying BIOS is going away?

I know about partition tables but never heard of UEFI..

Heh, computers really do cause different, completely random and inexplicable problems for different people. For example I have never yet heard that there was any kind of trouble with 64-bit windows, not from the internet at large, not from my friends, not from work, and I've myself had 64-bit windows since I bought my first 64-bit CPU, what was it, 10 years ago now? But on the other hand, I always have some kind of internet connection problems, no matter where I live, which ISP I have and which computer I use.

Who just got 64-bit clients and was nonstop having problems....? STO.. It's always ... something! with 64-bit... Since... Foreeeeeever. It always seems.

My 32-bit client didn't need any special patching..

I hear what you are saying but I am saying I have seen more patches due to 64-bit issues than I have 32-bit. More problems. More hiccups. I shall *shrug* along with you. : )
Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2018, 08:47:13 PM »
You can upgrade from Windows 10 Home to Pro in the Windows Store, but it's $99 to cover the difference.  (It costs $119.99 for Home, and $199.99 to buy Pro for a new machine without upgrading, so Microsoft dings you 19.99 for making the decision later versus at the start.)



I got an ad in my e-mail to get an OEM Home version for 90 bucks and a Pro version for $140...

Wth is the "Pro" version, anyway... Double the price, nearly? Really?

I mean.. I just wanna surf and play games. How Pr0h is that? I didn't even wanna get 10, as far as that goes!

"Pro".....

That price is pretty Pro..

What's the dif?

P.S..

If you just happen to be a Student, reading this.. Microsoft used to be really kind on Student pricing for Windows, last I knew. I got Vista obscenely cheap and I think it was a digital download - so, pretty fast and easy ordering.
Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Tahquitz

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2018, 05:55:42 AM »
I got an ad in my e-mail to get an OEM Home version for 90 bucks and a Pro version for $140...

Wth is the "Pro" version, anyway... Double the price, nearly? Really?

I mean.. I just wanna surf and play games. How Pr0h is that? I didn't even wanna get 10, as far as that goes!

"Pro".....

That price is pretty Pro..

What's the dif?

P.S..

If you just happen to be a Student, reading this.. Microsoft used to be really kind on Student pricing for Windows, last I knew. I got Vista obscenely cheap and I think it was a digital download - so, pretty fast and easy ordering.

Most people don't need Pro.  Here's what it does:

-- Planning to run a Windows Server?  Pro systems can join your domain for centralized control through Active Directory.
-- Remote Desktop Connection works. (VNC has been offering this for free on all three platforms for decades.)
-- BitLocker can encrypt your files.  (Again, open source has this covered.  The most lauded one, TrueCrypt, is dead.  But there are others out there.)
-- Group Policy Editor: you can set up accounts that have rights enabled or disabled without using Active Directory if you like.

That's about it.  The strongest selling point is Remote Desktop Connection: Microsoft's remote protocol comes with a Mobile App that works very well on Android and iOS, and with some trickery, works outside of your network.  (Then again, the same trickery on VNC does the job, too.)

There's some semantic differences between Home and Pro such as network handling, file serving requests, etc.  But not to put too fine a point, none of it affects daily use really.

After using Pro at work, I have no issue using Home for my personal systems anymore.  Where Windows 10 Home comes up short, you can supplant those issues with free apps anyway.  If you are looking at a future in IT, or want to run a Windows Server in your house for hobbyist reasons, Pro might be worth it, but not in every circumstance.  (You can run server apps just fine from a Home PC.  Example -- Microsoft Webmatrix dumps a IIS Server, SQL Server, and PHP on any Windows PC you like: your home system can serve webpages without Pro.  Or use a WAMP package out there.)

If it were me, save your money.  Home is enough.
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Victoria Victrix

  • Team Wildcard
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,886
  • If you don't try, you have failed.
    • Mercedes Lackey
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2018, 07:56:38 AM »
They will have to pry my Win7 out of my cold, dead fingers.

And there are a lot of us out there.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2018, 11:43:25 PM »
They will have to pry my Win7 out of my cold, dead fingers.

And there are a lot of us out there.

Hehe.

I think I read somewhere, recently, that Windows 7 is the most popular Windows OS. I'm perfectly happy with it too. If it weren't for the fact that I'm building a brand new PC that my OEM 7 will likely puke all over, I might not even upgrade. 7 just works. It doesn't break. Even when my hardware flakes out (heat probs, dying hard drives/video cards) Windows 7 manages to hold things together. I like the way things are organized and I like my customized version.

The tech innate in me has a problem building a new PC with an old OS is one reason I want to update. The other, is, my historically pain-in-the-assy OEM Win7 will likely reject the new PC I put it in until I find who I need to call at Microsoft and jump through some flaming hoops - which I don't really care to do again. Sooo if I'm going to buy Windows ... I may as well get a version that will be supported a few years or so longer than 7. Is the thought.

I like 7 too. If I weren't building a new PC I would have no urge whatsoever to update. The only bad thing about 7, to me, is that it *must* be getting to the end of it's support life.

Most people don't need Pro.  Here's what it does:

-- Planning to run a Windows Server?  Pro systems can join your domain for centralized control through Active Directory.
-- Remote Desktop Connection works. (VNC has been offering this for free on all three platforms for decades.)
-- BitLocker can encrypt your files.  (Again, open source has this covered.  The most lauded one, TrueCrypt, is dead.  But there are others out there.)
-- Group Policy Editor: you can set up accounts that have rights enabled or disabled without using Active Directory if you like.

That's about it.  The strongest selling point is Remote Desktop Connection: Microsoft's remote protocol comes with a Mobile App that works very well on Android and iOS, and with some trickery, works outside of your network.  (Then again, the same trickery on VNC does the job, too.)

There's some semantic differences between Home and Pro such as network handling, file serving requests, etc.  But not to put too fine a point, none of it affects daily use really.

After using Pro at work, I have no issue using Home for my personal systems anymore.  Where Windows 10 Home comes up short, you can supplant those issues with free apps anyway.  If you are looking at a future in IT, or want to run a Windows Server in your house for hobbyist reasons, Pro might be worth it, but not in every circumstance.  (You can run server apps just fine from a Home PC.  Example -- Microsoft Webmatrix dumps a IIS Server, SQL Server, and PHP on any Windows PC you like: your home system can serve webpages without Pro.  Or use a WAMP package out there.)

If it were me, save your money.  Home is enough.


So... basically... What you are saying is the Pro version is the Corporate Price Gouge version and Home is the version for everyone else. Okidoki, Home it is  : )

Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Tahquitz

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2018, 12:28:05 AM »
I think I read somewhere, recently, that Windows 7 is the most popular Windows OS. I'm perfectly happy with it too. If it weren't for the fact that I'm building a brand new PC that my OEM 7 will likely puke all over, I might not even upgrade. 7 just works. It doesn't break. Even when my hardware flakes out (heat probs, dying hard drives/video cards) Windows 7 manages to hold things together. I like the way things are organized and I like my customized version.

I didn't have many problems with Windows Vista, but I liked Windows 7.  I was a fan of it from the start.  And Windows 8 galvanized that for me quite a bit, I resisted 8 until Windows 10 came out and walked back the massive UI changes to something between 7 and 8.

But Windows 10 doesn't have that fan base, because they're big on datamining users now.  Everyone is.  Windows, macOS, even popular Linux distros come pre-packed with analytics.  Windows 7 did limited reporting to Microsoft, as did Vista and XP, but not near the extent that is happening now.

The biggest gripe I have about Windows 10: you can't tell people how to fix their systems anymore, especially in a help desk kind of role.  The Settings panel literally changes with every release, making consistent instructions across updates impossible to give.  It's kind of 'I have a sense of what to turn off' instead of absolutes anymore, and that makes telephone support very hard.  I'd point to the Control Panel, but as they add more settings to the Settings app, they pull them off of Control Panel.  It's as fluid as Settings anymore.
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Fireheart

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2018, 04:29:54 AM »
That's what I like about 'Pro' versions, one has a little more control of the 'ware.

What I Hate about Win10 is that it puts an extra layer of obfuscation between the tech and the technology.

Another thing I hate is that it has consistently deleted drivers for older machinery, turning those poor old computers into Bricks.

On the other hand, my 7 Pro computer upgraded smoothly to 10 Pro and has been running sweetly, ever since.  All I had to do is DENY every offer of easy/automatic/apps.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2018, 12:18:56 PM »

The biggest gripe I have about Windows 10: you can't tell people how to fix their systems anymore, especially in a help desk kind of role.  The Settings panel literally changes with every release, making consistent instructions across updates impossible to give.  It's kind of 'I have a sense of what to turn off' instead of absolutes anymore, and that makes telephone support very hard.  I'd point to the Control Panel, but as they add more settings to the Settings app, they pull them off of Control Panel.  It's as fluid as Settings anymore.

Wha??

Hmm.

Well...

Maybe I should wait for 10 to get out of Beta..

Windows 7 *does* have a 64-bit version and it *is* doing everything I want it to do. and I *do* already own it. Now I just have to get over the OEM hurdle. There won't be any OE in this new macheen..

On the one hand the above sounds like a tech support nightmare. On the other, it sounds like tech support $$. Either way, that, and hinky stuff like this:

All I had to do is DENY every offer of easy/automatic/apps.

Are turning me off of 10.

What does this mean?

What I Hate about Win10 is that it puts an extra layer of obfuscation between the tech and the technology.

What kind of obfuscation are we talking?



Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2018, 10:36:39 PM »
Well, as far as what Windows should I buy, the solution seems to be simple..

I'm 99% sure that I can't transfer my OEM 7 to a new PC no matter how much I assure MS that the Original/Last PC was sent to pasture.

So.

That means I have to buy a new copy of Windows.

Windows 7 and Windows 10 COST THE SAME... (wth.. maybe there are Sales..).

Now, given that information, what would you buy? A SUB to Microsoft for Half the time (for the pleasure of using Windows 7 until they decide to not support it anymore) or a sub for Double the time (for the disgust of being forced into using Windows 10 which, history tells us, will be here years after 7 is gone) that costs the same amount of money.

Looks like I have Windows 10 in my future. Cheap you-know-what that I am. I mean, 50 bucks is 50 bucks and that's what I consider Windows 7 to be worth. How can they sell something that is near the end of it's life cycle and that they barely update once a month and that has a decrepit version of Internet Explorer for the same price as their newest offering...? Don't answer. They don't want us using 7, that's why. That, and it's still popular - so why not squeeze every last dollar out of it.

Something I can't remember about "Full Versions" of Windows.. did they not once used to be upgradable? I.E. you could get a discount/upgrade price for upgrading from the previous version of Windows? I'm pretty sure that not only can you not move an OEM Windows to a new PC, you also get no upgrade pricing. I dunno how they do their upgrade pricing now, though?
Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Tahquitz

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2018, 02:53:09 AM »
Well, as far as what Windows should I buy, the solution seems to be simple..

I'm 99% sure that I can't transfer my OEM 7 to a new PC no matter how much I assure MS that the Original/Last PC was sent to pasture.

So.

That means I have to buy a new copy of Windows.

Windows 7 and Windows 10 COST THE SAME... (wth.. maybe there are Sales..).

Now, given that information, what would you buy? A SUB to Microsoft for Half the time (for the pleasure of using Windows 7 until they decide to not support it anymore) or a sub for Double the time (for the disgust of being forced into using Windows 10 which, history tells us, will be here years after 7 is gone) that costs the same amount of money.

Looks like I have Windows 10 in my future. Cheap you-know-what that I am. I mean, 50 bucks is 50 bucks and that's what I consider Windows 7 to be worth. How can they sell something that is near the end of it's life cycle and that they barely update once a month and that has a decrepit version of Internet Explorer for the same price as their newest offering...? Don't answer. They don't want us using 7, that's why. That, and it's still popular - so why not squeeze every last dollar out of it.

Something I can't remember about "Full Versions" of Windows.. did they not once used to be upgradable? I.E. you could get a discount/upgrade price for upgrading from the previous version of Windows? I'm pretty sure that not only can you not move an OEM Windows to a new PC, you also get no upgrade pricing. I dunno how they do their upgrade pricing now, though?

There's no difference anymore.  A copy of Windows 10 can upgrade or clean install.  That's been the case since Windows 8 and they did come down in price a little bit (so the M$FT Tax is $100-150 rather than $200-300 for self assembly.)  There's still upgrade pricing between Windows 10 Home and Windows 10 Pro (same edition upgrade), but they have a $20 premium to upgrade after the fact instead of upgrading at build time.  But there's no discount to upgrade from 7 or 8 to 10 now.  The free upgrade offer in 2015-16 was it.
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2018, 12:26:48 PM »
There's no difference anymore.  A copy of Windows 10 can upgrade or clean install.  That's been the case since Windows 8 and they did come down in price a little bit (so the M$FT Tax is $100-150 rather than $200-300 for self assembly.)  There's still upgrade pricing between Windows 10 Home and Windows 10 Pro (same edition upgrade), but they have a $20 premium to upgrade after the fact instead of upgrading at build time.  But there's no discount to upgrade from 7 or 8 to 10 now.  The free upgrade offer in 2015-16 was it.

That is extremely educational...

You know, in the past 12 years, things really haven't changed that much in PC building in many ways. In some ways, they really have.

Now I wonder if there's any difference in how OEM's operate.. They're plastered everywhere I look. The last I knew, OEM's wouldn't work if you upgraded your PC past a certain point - I.E. you could only upgrade/replace a certain amount of components (like, 2) within a certain amount of time (months) - otherwise your PC wasn't considered to be the PC they sold you their 'cheap' OEM for and your Windows install would fail and give you a number to call Microsoft to try and sort things out.

Does anyone have the current skinny on OEM's? Their Limitations?

It makes no sense to me why you can't continue to use the same OEM version they sold you as long as you only use it on 1 PC at a time. Maybe they finally changed that. It was a real hassle on this PC a couple of times and I don't even want to try to put it in a brand new build.

There's no difference anymore.  A copy of Windows 10 can upgrade or clean install.

That should cut down on the number of copies of Windows floating around tech shops.. "Is this the one that upgrades or can I just do clean installs with it?" I'm sure we had more than 2 Windows CD's floating around the last shop I worked at I just can't remember all their eccentricities atm..

Oh, and, ouch...

The free upgrade offer in 2015-16 was it.

I was astonished (and posted here) when I found out they were going to do this, and, I didn't have enough Internet (data limits) to download it. For free.
Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Tahquitz

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2018, 04:55:56 PM »
OEM Copies are pretty much the same.  Per Microsoft, "OEM copies of Windows lives and dies with that machine."  That was true since Windows XP -- OEMs get a significant discount to mass sell systems.  If end users could move OEM licenses at will (doesn't mean they don't try, but it's against the terms of the license) both lose money: Microsoft as well as the OEM.

Since Windows 8, Microsoft has put in OEM License Keys into UEFI on machines made by an OEM (via SLIC Table), so the end user has no hands on the license key at all.  That's a pain for an IT Shop like mine, since when our teachers buy a laptop from outside our process and want us to install programs on it, we need to mess with the Windows installer to force install Windows Pro so the laptop can log into our domain. (Telling Windows Setup to ignore the SLIC Key and install Pro anyways, then we put in the correct key later.)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 05:54:09 PM by Tahquitz »
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2018, 06:11:57 PM »
  Per Microsoft, "OEM copies of Windows lives and dies with that machine." 

"That machine"...

When does "that machine" no longer qualify as "that machine" is not a bad question. I'm sure the answer is written in stone, somewhere, and I'm also sure not everyone at MS knows where to read that stone. I got grilled by Microsoft after upgrading video and a hard drive on this PC, some years ago. "It's not the same machine", they told me. "My @ss, I told them, my machine has had an (not even major).... *upgrade*, it's still.... the same machine." Eventually they gave me a new key or whatever it took to get my Windows rolling again.. But it was a pain and I spent a lot of airtime on the phone.

Now.

If OEM's were still a lot cheaper than "full versions" (that aren't as full as they once were due to they aren't upgradable anymore) then the potential of going through hassle like that again might be worth it. I'm not seeing 'real cheap' versions of OEM's, though. I'm seeing ~ $15 - $20 in savings.

So... OEM's aren't much cheaper than Full Versions, these days, and, there is no longer an upgrade path with Full Versions. However, OEM's are likely still potentially a big pain in the butt and you can still install a Full Version on any (single) machine you want until the end of time or whenever MS ends support for Window's 10, whichever comes first.

As a home User/gamer I don't care if it's Pro or not - OEM or not seems a bigger issue. For an extra $15... I might just get a "Full" version.

See how good they are? They not only corralled me into getting 10, I'm getting a Full version.

Next upgrade I may question why I still even use Windows, at all. I think I don't care how fancy or bloated the Interface to my Games and Browser is as long as it works and I can re-install it without calling someone for permission. After 30+ years of Microsoft, though... I'll probably stick with them. Even though I never thought Windows would make it in the beginning and have been annoyed by Microsoft regularly, since.
Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Fireheart

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2018, 12:08:30 AM »
What does this mean?
What kind of obfuscation are we talking?
Well, they are phasing-out most of Control Panel, in favor of 'Settings' which does not allow one to really control anything.  One has to drill-down a few layers to actually get at the numbers that control the OS.  So, they are 'taking away control' while telling users that their automatic software will do a better job.  However, the 'automatic' software is less useful than a skilled User, as far as I can tell.  So, 'obfuscation' as in adding layers of software to hide the controls from the user.

Tahquitz

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2018, 01:54:58 AM »
"That machine"...

When does "that machine" no longer qualify as "that machine" is not a bad question. I'm sure the answer is written in stone, somewhere, and I'm also sure not everyone at MS knows where to read that stone.

Yeah, the Kontiki example.  Or to wit, the movie Master & Commander: The Far Side of The World (GREAT film if you haven't seen it.)  If your ship is critically damaged, you take floatwood and hull parts from damaged ships to repair it, at what point is it a new ship?  According to the British Navy in that movie, the H.M.S. Surprise remained herself throughout, since the captain deemed it so.

But to a computer, supposedly since Windows Vista, Microsoft weighs that a system is a new activation when the Motherboard, Processor and Hard Drive are all changed from the original system activation.  But not entirely.  You can change one part over time and still activate with the same software key.  It's when all three have changed from the original hardware hash that's initially captured that the key is invalidated and you got to obtain another license.

And you're right, it doesn't always work out that way.  There's been weird issues with activation where only a support agent can reissue the key. 

But Windows 10 offers a way out.  If you register your system with your Microsoft Account, and then do a significant hardware change, when Windows is deactivated, you can log in with your Microsoft Account into the system, and then reactivate.  Even if you change your motherboard.  Check it out if you like.

As a home User/gamer I don't care if it's Pro or not - OEM or not seems a bigger issue. For an extra $15... I might just get a "Full" version.

See how good they are? They not only corralled me into getting 10, I'm getting a Full version.

Yeah, the OEM licenses offered to end users are chump change compared to contract discounts they offer HP.  They discount Windows based on volume sold, so if it's a popular system, ZDNet reported that HP pays as little as $30 per machine for Windows 10 Home if sales exceed a certain amount of units.  The best price an OEM copy goes for on Newegg is $99, and it comes with the same caveats as an HP system:

-- That copy of Windows 10 cannot be transferred to another system.
-- Installation and activation support from Microsoft is not offered (which is free of charge for Retail owners, even if you call Microsoft for tech support).  For an OEM system it's up to the company who installed it to provide end user support.  (If that's you, that means you're on your own.)

Whether or not registering your OEM installed computer with Microsoft will allow you to reactivate after a major hardware upgrade is not clear.  It might not work, as most folks who buy a mass-produced system from HP, Dell, Lenovo, or Acer rarely upgrade the processor or motherboard.  Especially in an all-in-one system or small form factor desktop where the motherboard isn't a standard size anyway.

Next upgrade I may question why I still even use Windows, at all. I think I don't care how fancy or bloated the Interface to my Games and Browser is as long as it works and I can re-install it without calling someone for permission. After 30+ years of Microsoft, though... I'll probably stick with them. Even though I never thought Windows would make it in the beginning and have been annoyed by Microsoft regularly, since.

Although the SteamBox has been a critical failure, Gabe Newell still hasn't given up on Steam OS.  The hard part is getting MMO providers to get on board.
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,348
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2018, 03:17:46 AM »
Yeah, the Kontiki example.  Or to wit, the movie Master & Commander: The Far Side of The World (GREAT film if you haven't seen it.)  If your ship is critically damaged, you take floatwood and hull parts from damaged ships to repair it, at what point is it a new ship?  According to the British Navy in that movie, the H.M.S. Surprise remained herself throughout, since the captain deemed it so.


Sounds like the Surprise had a couple splinters left over from the ship of Theseus.

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2018, 12:47:48 PM »
Well, they are phasing-out most of Control Panel, in favor of 'Settings' which does not allow one to really control anything.  One has to drill-down a few layers to actually get at the numbers that control the OS.  So, they are 'taking away control' while telling users that their automatic software will do a better job.  However, the 'automatic' software is less useful than a skilled User, as far as I can tell.  So, 'obfuscation' as in adding layers of software to hide the controls from the user.

This is what happened when Windows ran on top of DOS. A little control went away.

This is what happened when Windows ran instead of DOS. Much more control went away.

Now it seems like someone finally woke up and said "hey, why give them any control at all?".

The Control Panel is about as old as Windows itself and something I personally would not like to see phased out unless they have a superior replacement. Reading things like this make me want to waste my money on Windows 7 and support that 'movement'. It's disturbing, reading stuff like this. Then again.. Windows 95 was pretty unsettling but it ended up being light years beyond anything before it and I'd have never gone back. Along with that loss of control we suffered (and massive change in support) when Windows 95 rolled around, we gained tons of stability and sexiness. Lets hope those kinds of brains are still working for MS.
Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Tahquitz

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2018, 02:12:57 AM »
This is what happened when Windows ran on top of DOS. A little control went away.

This is what happened when Windows ran instead of DOS. Much more control went away.

Now it seems like someone finally woke up and said "hey, why give them any control at all?".

The Control Panel is about as old as Windows itself and something I personally would not like to see phased out unless they have a superior replacement. Reading things like this make me want to waste my money on Windows 7 and support that 'movement'. It's disturbing, reading stuff like this. Then again.. Windows 95 was pretty unsettling but it ended up being light years beyond anything before it and I'd have never gone back. Along with that loss of control we suffered (and massive change in support) when Windows 95 rolled around, we gained tons of stability and sexiness. Lets hope those kinds of brains are still working for MS.

In Windows 8, the gist of the operating system was that PC Settings (the predecessor of the Settings Panel of Windows 10) had basic support information and limited controls to affect the computer.  The intent was that Power Users would ignore the app and continue to use Control Panel.  Mainstream users who don't know what settings cause restarts from those that are harmless are left with the Settings panel and relative safety as nothing in the panel would cause your system to fail to start.

So far, that's the aim in Windows 10.  Even Windows 8 had recovery options in the PC Settings panel, but Windows 10 the majority of features removed from the Control Panel are redundant ones that aren't considered 'advanced'.  What's scary is the blurring of lines in some areas: Network & Internet is ceding more ground to Settings, and the method to get a network card to connect to a Static IP even today has two methods that can sit on top of each other and cause you to enter two Gateways for the same card (even if they're given the same address both times.) 

Something that is avoided if IPv4/IPv6 is left to the Control Panel and out of the hands of the Settings app.  If you're in an environment that doesn't offer DHCP to laypeople such as Wi-Fi Guest Networks, or a home router at a friend's place, odds are someone would need to configure your system to connect to their network anyways.
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2018, 05:25:44 PM »
I lied, before, by the way... I thought about it right after posting but never got around to correcting it. When Windows ran on top of DOS... it was still pretty much just another program. You could do with it or without it and you still could do whatever you wanted with no lockout to anything in your PC.

Ever since 95 up until now it has  progressively become more like the MCP from Tron. Everything must go through the MCP first and your access to the system can be limited.

Having said that, I was a huge fan of 95 and have a support story for it I like to think about. Was a big fan of Vista when lots of people including techs didn't like it and I like Windows 7 well enough to never switch again.


Yeah, the Kontiki example.  Or to wit, the movie Master & Commander: The Far Side of The World (GREAT film if you haven't seen it.)  If your ship is critically damaged, you take floatwood and hull parts from damaged ships to repair it, at what point is it a new ship?  According to the British Navy in that movie, the H.M.S. Surprise remained herself throughout, since the captain deemed it so.


Yeah, exactly!  I hadn't hardly used any floatwood at all and they were calling my ship new. I think your ship should be the same ship until you no longer float her (especially with that tiny price difference for single copy OEM's). Just like that captain. They get to keep me to one PC, and, they are going to stop supporting whatever sails they sold me at some point anyway... So, let me ship, remain me ship until I no longer float'er, Arrrr!

: )

In Windows 8, the gist of the operating system was that PC Settings (the predecessor of the Settings Panel of Windows 10) had basic support information and limited controls to affect the computer.  The intent was that Power Users would ignore the app and continue to use Control Panel.  Mainstream users who don't know what settings cause restarts from those that are harmless are left with the Settings panel and relative safety as nothing in the panel would cause your system to fail to start.

So far, that's the aim in Windows 10.  Even Windows 8 had recovery options in the PC Settings panel, but Windows 10 the majority of features removed from the Control Panel are redundant ones that aren't considered 'advanced'. 

Sooooo Control Panel still exists? And all the stuff inside it still exists, it just may be in a different or two places?

Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Tahquitz

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2018, 09:02:37 PM »
Sooooo Control Panel still exists? And all the stuff inside it still exists, it just may be in a different or two places?

Except for that exodus part, yes.  For example, since the Creator's Update, you can remove programs from both Settings and Control Panel now.  But the Settings version of "Add/Remove" has some polish needed... so the Control Panel version of the same thing is still present for now.

UWP (Windows 10) Apps don't need that function, to uninstall it, right click the app as an administrator and choose "Uninstall."   Answer yes, and it's gone.  (Or you can do it from Microsoft Store.)  Try the same thing on a standard Windows App, and it sends you to the Programs and Features Control Panel instead.

Eventually, the Settings app will absorb that Control Panel option as well.  What strikes me as silly when they'll get to it: what will happen to Administrative Tools, the Control Panel apps that are so powerful they need another Control Panel?
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2018, 04:52:14 PM »
As long as the options still exist somewhere for me to be able to manage my PC I can put up with finding where they put them.

Except for that exodus part, yes. 


Exodus part?


$110... The cheapest full version I can find is $110.. Windows 10 isn't all that new anymore to be charging $110.

I'm getting SSD drive offers in the (e-)mail for $30...

The pricing on Windows 7 is just .. a ripoff. It's not much different than it is for 10. It's the same, on Newegg - both cost $100 for the OEM and for Windows 7, all they have is OEMs. Unless MS plans on unprecedented support of Windows 7 for the entire life of 10, or, unless they are admitting that 7 is a far superior OS, 7 pricing is a total ripoff.


Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Tahquitz

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,861
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2018, 02:50:30 AM »
"The exodus part" meaning moving settings from Control Panel to the Windows 10 Settings app.

They stopped selling retail copies of Windows 7.  The OEM copies are 'while supplies last', or when Windows 7 security updates stop in 2020, whichever comes first.
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2018, 03:28:50 AM »
"The exodus part" meaning moving settings from Control Panel to the Windows 10 Settings app.


Ohhh.

They stopped selling retail copies of Windows 7.

That's right.. I remember you saying that now..

The OEM copies are 'while supplies last', or when Windows 7 security updates stop in 2020, whichever comes first.

And for Full Price! I mean geez, let me cheap out and save $50 for the next year and a half until they get their blood money for Windows 10. Their pricing sucks.




Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2018, 02:41:00 PM »
Windows 10 Edge....

Is this as easy to get rid of, as it looks, online? Do I just need to install another browser and make it the Default?

My dad is having probs even using his computer right now and on top of it he's got a new one, with, Windows 10, which is new to him (too..). Edge has been giving him fits and he wants to get rid of it but for some reason his friend's had an impossible time walking him through it over the phone.

Also.. Is there still a version of Windows 10 without Edge? He's ready to plunk down another $120 to get another version of Windows 10 that doesn't come with Edge but I can't say as I ever saw one in my recent shopping.

It looks like a simple thing to turn off, to me, I just hope that's what he really wants to get rid of. I remember in this thread being warned to turn of MS Phishing or something similar but I can't scroll down that far atm  : )
Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>

Xev

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,424
  • |STO|~Luckshot-D'Xev-T'Xev> |CO|~Deeps-Jooc-IDAK>
Re: The Death of 32-bit
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2018, 04:17:38 PM »
For anyone teetering on the brink of ultimate suspense.. Edge seemed simple enough to get rid of as the default browser. Pretty much do what Google says. And, hurray that I can still type a search in at the bottom of the Start button menu. And, that there's a Start button.

It's way more difficult to do if you want to download Chrome to replace it and your Wi-Fi is totally sucking for air, but, that's another story.

Some Faves:

Jooc  ~L50 TW/Ele Brute> Senge  ~L50 Claws/Fire Brute> Leezard  ~L50 Claws/Regen Scrapper> Kosmoz  ~L50 Fire/MM Blaster>  Xev  ~L50 Ice/Emp Troller>