Author Topic: What would you build?  (Read 30993 times)

Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2018, 02:25:25 PM »
Soooo... I finally got around to looking at some processors..

I can get a fairly huge boost for 80 bucks.

Or, I can get 'modern' for ~ double of that.

By modern, I mean, DDR4 support. And with DDR4 support most likely comes other new tech.

The sweet spot seems to be 8 cores.. Double what I have, now. The GHz has gone up, some, from my chip, but, not nearly as much.

One thing that struck me was that I was comparing 2 AMD AM4 chips... and.. the main different between them seemed to be $10-$20, and.. ~ 30 watts!

The AMD Ryzen 1700 operates at 65 watts, while the slightly faster 1700x operates at 95. That seems like a large difference, to me. I always thought the lower the (heat) power use, the better? But the 1700x is more expensive and doesn't seem that much faster for all that power consumption.

Any thoughts? Anyone like these Ryzens? After a good solid 3 minutes or so of shopping, they look pretty decent. If I want to go DDR3 I can save 'a ton' - due to the DDR3 supporting processors seem to be ~ half the price of the DDR4's.

Thing is, in 5 years (much less) I won't remember the 80 bucks - but... in 5 years will the difference between DDR4 and DDR3 be worth it? If ya know what I mean. I mean, if it's not that large of a boost, then why bother - however... it's in my innate tech nature to go for the largest memory data path and speed that is fiscally possible.

So, I put it to you guys out there actually using this stuff.. What's j0r opinions? On processors and memory..

I might actually end up doing this. Still targeting Cyber Monday. Looking good, so far. I figure whatever doesn't go on sale, Cyber Monday, will go on sale before year-end.. Now be the time to start shopping if you're a cheapskate like me. I skate quite cheaply  : )

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Tahquitz

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2018, 05:13:26 AM »
Thing is, in 5 years (much less) I won't remember the 80 bucks - but... in 5 years will the difference between DDR4 and DDR3 be worth it? If ya know what I mean. I mean, if it's not that large of a boost, then why bother - however... it's in my innate tech nature to go for the largest memory data path and speed that is fiscally possible.

To explain it like I do at work:

              ^
         Speed
       /               \
Capacity --  Price

It's the efficiency triangle.  You can pick one ignoring the other two and it'll do great (awesome speed OR capacity OR price).  Or find a choice that's good at two, shunning the third. (You can be fast and cheap, but with 2GB capacity.  OR have 16GB for less than $120 if you don't mind "Value" RAM being sluggish when you are demanding.  OR you can have 32GB with the best CAS Timings on the market... but prepare to pay out the nose for it.)

Realistically, you can't have all three.  It's not impossible to find something that fits all three for you (as the above triangle is subjective to your own tastes), but if something does strike a balance between all three (not great, not good, but a balance), it's probably one in a million in a sea of products that can't compare.

After that, DDR3 and DDR4's main difference is processors and speeds supported.  I wouldn't pick between DDR3 or 4 specifically in terms of performance or RAM Capacity... I'd let my choice in processor weigh out which I get for the motherboard it'll need to work.  Of course, in a few months or years, I'll go back on this advice and say to myself "DDR4, dummy.  DDR3 is a thing of the past!" about two months after DDR5 comes out but isn't broadly available yet to mean anything to the average user.  So I'll dovetail this advice with the following: this is what I think... FOR NOW.

DDR3 enjoys broad selection right now for a simple reason: it's been out for a while.  But DDR4 is close to meeting that same availability.  Even when it does, it's mostly a draw, and will be for a few years.  In any case, I wouldn't rule out a processor or socket because DDR4 isn't available on it.

Speed isn't everything: don't forget capacity and price.
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Tahquitz

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2018, 05:21:06 AM »
Of course, in a few months or years, I'll go back on this advice and say to myself "DDR4, dummy.  DDR3 is a thing of the past!" about two months after DDR5 comes out but isn't broadly available yet to mean anything to the average user.

Ah, hell.  https://finance.yahoo.com/news/synopsys-announces-fastest-most-power-130500746.html

My advice still stands.  I wouldn't pass on DDR3 yet if all the other marks are hit with a processor/mobo selection.
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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2018, 04:23:58 PM »
First of all, thanks for any and all!

To explain it like I do at work:

              ^
         Speed
       /               \
Capacity --  Price

It's the efficiency triangle.  You can pick one ignoring the other two and it'll do great (awesome speed OR capacity OR price).  Or find a choice that's good at two, shunning the third.

hehe. The Efficiency Triangle..  ; ) I like that. I am engaging *all* efficiency triangles, on this purchase.. and appreciate your guys' help with this first one.

After that, DDR3 and DDR4's main difference is processors and speeds supported.

This is the kinda info I'm looking for. I mean, what's the big deal between 3 and 4? Relatively speaking, memory standards/specs don't go up that often. So there very well could be a big deal, or two. Like a way huger data path or lower heat/power or... I dunno! I haven't done this for awhile. I have a hard time believing that a whole new standard that requires a whole other processor doesn't provide a (faster!).. more modern computing experience with a longer lifespan of usefulness - thus keeping my not often up-to-date PC up to date for.. longer. Hopefully not 12 years, this time.

If there is no reeeeal noticeable difference with DDR4 and the processors supporting this memory offer no reeeal noticeable difference - and - this trend is likely to continue throughout their (the memory and processor) lifetime... at that point, spending half as much on memory and processor (and probably less on a motherboard, too..) becomes more tempting. Like when 386/40's where outgunning and outselling more expensive Pentiums.

My *guess* is, for a motherboard to support the processors and memory we're talking about, it is going to be fairly modern. It's going to have the current bus standards and all that happy hoo hoo. I'm good with spending a little more for this, too.

I mean, I'm paying extra for what would probably be considered current/'modern' tech, but, I'm not really paying New Cutting Edge Tech prices when we're talking about (any speed flavor of) DDR4 and the lowest end DDR4 supporting motherboard. Huh? This stuff's been around since I started shopping some months ago, anyway.

Or.. can I/is it smarter to get *high end* DDR3 for the same price - that blows away low end 'DDR4 tech'........? And will that DDR3 tech be considered acceptably modern for an acceptable amount of time. (As read in our crystal balls).

Finally, 10 paragraphs later, I figured out what I was trying to say.... ^^


Speed isn't everything: don't forget capacity and price.

No no, speed *is* everything...!

But, we often can't have everything. 

In this case I can afford 16 gig of DDR4. I bet I can get it for close enough to $100 before year's end...

In this case I can afford the processor.

Memory and processor and motherboard are the three things I skimp on a little as possible. They're the core. Everything feeds off of these things.

Video is super important too... but it's an expansion card and not so ...integrated. I plan to hit that triangle as hard as I can when the time comes and I have to hit it before the motherboard triangle, just to be safe that I'm not skipping some great new video standard.. And then it's time to hit up the Hard Drive triangle and visit a local PC shop for what is hopefully a really great case. My old one shoulda never made it this far  : D

I don't have (any) tons of disposable cash laying around.. but.. I have been saving very small amounts, for.. years. And I don't plan to build another PC for years. The PC I have now? It's 12 years old and I play my (old Cryptic) games on max settings. It takes Windows 5 minutes to fully boot! but.. Point is, I've been saving for this and I don't plan to do it again for awhile - like last time.

"If he can afford it, why's he asking us?"

Well.. because what I save here, if anything, I can spend elsewhere. Or maybe I decide I should spend that money, here, and save, for spending more, elsewhere.

I guess what surprised me is that there are still a ton of seemingly popular processors out there on DDR3. There was a time that the 386/40 was an excellent processor even when Pentiums were making the scene. Well, and, 'DDR3 tech' is about half the cost of going DDR4.

But what's that half? I would be surprised if I can't get 16 gigs of DDR4 for ~ $100 before years' end and several minutes of shopping revealed I can already get a DDR4 supporting processor $160.. I have not priced DDR4 motherboards but I would be surprised the sweet spot, there, wasn't ~ $120 or less. I have not priced DDR3 motherboards.. I wouldn't be surprised if they were half of the DDR4's, or a little more. This is all pretty acceptable and not surprising (unless I'm way wrong on the motherboards).

We're talking about equipment that may well have to last me another decade. Hope not! But it did last time. I'm getting my feet wet here. I need to start getting in ordering-stuff-mode which means I have to start getting straight in my head what tech to go for. Thanks for the help.


Even when my PCs only had to last a year or two or three at max, I always built them to last for 10. As a goal. (Damn lucky thing, this last time!) But that surely does not mean that I start at the Price part of the triangle and that I aim for super new alien technology. I aim for the superest sweet spot I can find, and afford - what I think will be the fastest, for the longest, for the cheapest.. Just like TQ is talking about. Used to do it for my customers too  : )

So what's the big deal about DDR4? Is there anything especially special about the motherboards and processors running it?

I picked DDR4 as the focus due to it is a newer standard than DDR3. DDR4 requires newer tech to run on - newer motherboards and processors. Well, and, Memory is King. One of them anyway. In the King/Queen geometric shape : )

              ^
         Motherboard
       /               \
Processor --  Memory
     

With very important but generally not as much immediate importance towards..

Video
...Storage
(which must be supported by Motherboard, above)



Case and a place to plug-in are a must!  : D I have the latter, covered  : )



Thanks for your help! Input! Vibe... Experience!  : )
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Tahquitz

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2018, 04:58:31 PM »
So what's the big deal about DDR4? Is there anything especially special about the motherboards and processors running it?

Concerning the choice between DDR3 and DDR4, you'll find whatever motherboard you choose will only allow one or the other.  The RAM slots are keyed (there's a notch to prevent other types of RAM from being installed) so only the correct RAM will work. 

To get super technical, DDR3 has a data rate range of 800MHz to 2133MHz, where DDR4 goes from 1600MHz to a theoretical 3200MHz (hasn't been reached yet in the market, so we'll see.)  Capacity maximums are another comparison point, which in the real world doesn't matter.  DDR3 has a ceiling of 128GB.  DDR4, 512GB.  (You'll be hard pressed to find a motherboard with enough expansion slots to reach those totals for either system.)  The last comparison point is voltage used.  DDR3 uses 1.5 volts, DDR3L (Low Voltage) is 1.35 volts, where DDR4 is 1.2 volts.  Less energy means more stability when overclocking (which personally I never recommend for casual gaming/use.  A 3-10% performance boost isn't worth the headache of reconfiguring the system every time a hardware failure or change knocks your system out.)  Less energy also means less heat, which helps reduce the heat in your case.  That's a benefit anyone can appreciate.

So, that's the real difference.  Should you rule out a system that uses DDR3 because it can't reach clock rates over 2133MHz compared to what you're using now?  Or because DDR3 can't be upgraded past 128GB of RAM?  (Most motherboards will have a lower ceiling than that anyway.)  Or because it'll be 20% hotter than DDR4?  (Which if you're not overclocking it, a miniscule amount of heat compared to your processor or Video Card.)  If so, then DDR4 is the only consideration.

Why I wouldn't rule out a DDR3 motherboard: if you're looking to make an affordable system to game on, DDR4's biggest drawback over DDR3 is simply price.  Most DDR3 capacity packages will cost less than DDR4's equivalent capacity (except DDR4 "value" or "budget" RAM packages, which sacrifice speed and/or capacity for a lower price). 

Yes, someday, your choices in upgrading a DDR3 system will be diminished compared to DDR4 over time, but realistically, if you need to cut the cost somewhere initially RAM is safer than the processor or motherboard.  Generally, upgrading a motherboard or CPU is harder than buying larger or faster RAM later.  So that's another way to think about it.  With DDR4, you can buy "just enough" to get today's games working, then upgrade later to better RAM.  Or, if you have programs that demand capacity (you edit video or run Virtual Machines as well as game with your system) if you go with DDR3, you can more affordably max out your motherboard in the short term (if not in the onset, in a few months of paychecks.)  Just know that it will be a bottleneck in later years.

I picked DDR4 as the focus due to it is a newer standard than DDR3. DDR4 requires newer tech to run on - newer motherboards and processors. Well, and, Memory is King. One of them anyway. In the King/Queen geometric shape : )

              ^
         Motherboard
       /               \
Processor --  Memory
With very important but generally not as much immediate importance towards..

Video
...Storage
(which must be supported by Motherboard, above)

Case and a place to plug-in are a must!  : D I have the latter, covered  : )

Thanks for your help! Input! Vibe... Experience!  : )


Yup.  Except I'd turn the triangle on it's point:

Motherboard - CPU
   \                  /
       Memory
            V

Motherboard and CPU will dictate what memory you'll pick.  Especially in motherboard with a Socket than handles multiple processors (if it allows a Celeron, Core i3, Core i5, for example, the lower ones may have a rate limit preventing the memory from reaching a faster speed, so spending on faster sticks won't have a benefit.)  Upside of RAM: it's more forgiving than other parts.  If you buy a kit that is a faster clock speed than your motherboard supports, IT WILL STILL WORK.  Just at a reduced clock rate.  But as mentioned above, DDR4 can't be used in a DDR3 system and vice versa.

That being said, I wouldn't hinge an upgrade path on that; the best advice as always remains.  Buy the fastest processor you can afford. Because it should be the second to last component to consider replacing in a system for an upgrade.  Motherboard being the absolute last... and usually because something has gone horribly wrong. (IT CAUGHT FIRE! RUN!!!)
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 05:10:58 PM by Tahquitz »
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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2018, 08:06:36 PM »
Concerning the choice between DDR3 and DDR4, you'll find whatever motherboard you choose will only allow one or the other.  The RAM slots are keyed (there's a notch to prevent other types of RAM from being installed) so only the correct RAM will work.

Yup, I get this.

To get super technical

Pls do!

This is what I'm looking for. Super technical. What's your super technical take on this technology.

Scanning what you wrote, I'd say DDR4 has a future and DDR3 is on it's way out.

The last comparison point is voltage used.  DDR3 uses 1.5 volts, DDR3L (Low Voltage) is 1.35 volts, where DDR4 is 1.2 volts.  Less energy means more stability when overclocking (which personally I never recommend for casual gaming/use.  A 3-10% performance boost isn't worth the headache of reconfiguring the system every time a hardware failure or change knocks your system out.)  Less energy also means less heat, which helps reduce the heat in your case.  That's a benefit anyone can appreciate.

This, is what sold me. These small benefits which you speak of are uber to me. Low Voltage and Heat are like Crit Chance... You always wanna go for them when possible.

Why I wouldn't rule out a DDR3 motherboard: if you're looking to make an affordable system to game on, DDR4's biggest drawback over DDR3 is simply price.  Most DDR3 capacity packages will cost less than DDR4's equivalent capacity (except DDR4 "value" or "budget" RAM packages, which sacrifice speed and/or capacity for a lower price). 


We're talking about 16 gig being plenty of RAM, for me, right? I'm betting I can get it for $100 before year's end... I'm cheap, but not that cheap. I mean if I'm going to build a whole new PC, 100 bucks for memory doesn't seem unreasonable at all. Or even $120.

20% less heat on the thing that gets hammered for failures which we want the fewest of and from which much goodness flows, quickly...? And that is currently sitting under my CPU.....? Yes plx.

Nah really, that is a cool thing to know when shopping around, thank you.

Yes, someday, your choices in upgrading a DDR3 system will be diminished compared to DDR4 over time, but realistically, if you need to cut the cost somewhere initially RAM is safer than the processor or motherboard. 

I want to agree with you, but, in this case, the processor and CPU are connected at the hip.. If I cut cost on memory, then I'm cutting cost on the processor by default. That's why I've been grouping them together. What is so special about them BOTH.. Due to if I 'cheap out' on one, I'm gonna cheap out on both - memory And processor.

You already convinced me that DDR4 is yummy. Not crazy yum, but, there's some yum there. Better than: 'well, one is faster, one is slower, one costs more than the other.'



Yup.  Except I'd turn the triangle on it's point:

Motherboard - CPU
   \                  /
       Memory
            V



Just for the record, my triangle has no point that is more important than the other.. Think of it more of an Ouija board.. except my slider moves where.... I can afford it to move : D And where I can justify it to move.

Motherboard and CPU will dictate what memory you'll pick.

Nope. Not to me. To me, CPU and Memory (connected at the hip) will decide what motherboard (type..) I get.

Now..

Once I pick the actual motherboard that will go in my case...

Then, I come back and pick the *exact* memory (maybe this motherboard only supports certain capacities or speeds) and processor.

When I pick the motherboard, I pick the sweetest, most durable one I can justify/afford - and then I put the sweetest, most durable processor and memory in it I can afford.

and then I put the sweetest and most durable video...and then whatever's leftover gets splurged on the best storage I can afford - due to, like you said, do the easiest to replace stuff last. And I would also say, do it cheapest. If you're going to cheap out, do it on video or storage which are usually the easiest to replace. Having said that.... Try and get you a good Windows drive up front because if you don't... every time you upgrade storage you have to you know what.

Thanks TQ! I need to do some shopping... I'm not in the zone for it lately... It's harvest time around here (I'm in AG now) and I'm in the middle of some overdue dentist stuff and and and.

So thanks bunches. I really need to get on this before year's end or I'm gonna end up losing out on all the sales, which, are pretty significant starting ~ now, for us home PC ppl.

Edit!:

When I said "When I pick the motherboard, I pick the sweetest, most durable one I can justify/afford - and then I put the sweetest, most durable processor and memory in it I can afford."

It can be... in the buying process I learn something new that makes me want a different processor or memory than my chosen motherboard can support. At that point... I choose a new motherboard and then go back to choosing a processor and memory to go in it.

Ultimately.... when I have a motherboard...processor...and memory that all play well together as well as I can make them, then I hit 'Buy'.

But yeah, again, I'm trying to sort out the technology right now. What's the big deal about what. What I should salivate over, or not.  : )

Also.. If you're gonna cheap out on video... try and limp along on what you have until you can get what you want is what I would say. I wasn't suggesting to get a cheap video card, unless.... yours is just so out of date that a $40 video card is a major improvement (been there! but I still saved and got what I have now...), or, your video card won't plug into the new motherboard and you just can't afford the video you want. At that point 40 bucks becomes easier to swallow, and, a video card isn't that hard to replace and install drivers for. Usually : )
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 08:33:16 PM by Xev »
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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2018, 10:25:54 PM »
I'm making a new post due to this one has some actual questions in it, whereas the other one is more a meeting of minds.

So.

Memory.

I want to get (1) 16 gig stick and plug it into my (2) memory slot motherboard..

What is more common, today? That I have to fill both slots with 8 gig sticks, or that I can just plug (1) 16 gig stick in?

Newegg has about every other imaginable detail I could want except this one that I never know!

I'm really surprised how low cost the motherboards I'm looking at, are, so far! I expected them to start at ~ $80 but it's just under $60..

Now tell me some more Super Technical, TQ... What are the sweet motherboard busses, today? What should I try to get on my motherboard if I can afford it? Anything special? A good PCIE interface? A good video interface? Anything special, period? It doesn't have to be sweet, just noteworthy.

It's not a business PC ya know. I'm all games with this PC. Well, and whatever else needs done on it..

My shopping cart is at $320 bucks with (No Windows, yet.....) a Ryzen AM4 and a cheap mobo from the manufacturer I like that supports it and supports DDR4, and, with a 16 gig stick of DDR4 3200 (decent?) memory... That's perfectly acceptable! I wouldn't mind spending the same amount of money and getting more powah from sale prices. Just an example of 3 minutes of Newegging. Who is still really great! On organizing their data, at least.  : )

edit:

PCI-Express 3.0 seems like the newer SSD interface..? there's different flavors like "x4"

I'm totally good with pricing on SSD PCIe x4 drive pricing if that is toppish of the line.

Is there anything else I should be looking for with SSDs? Or SSD interfaces on motherboards?


This edit reserved for bus questions and possibly more, for video:

Yup, I'm back.

Ok, video is more complicated. The sweet Nvidia spot seems to be 6 gigs memory, pcie express 3.0 x16 interface. I'll take any suggestions, here, too! Anything you might think is noteworthy to look for, or at, or that is coming.

I know the latest Nividia cards were like 2 freakin thousand dollars recently.. For STO players! But not this one. (Inside joke..) I never in my life saw video cards for a price approaching anything like that, except.. back in the day when math co-processors and AutoCAD were special. But not for home PC! Sheesh. $2k! A home video card..

« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 11:21:48 PM by Xev »
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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2018, 12:51:05 AM »
Soooo... I finally decided to get some dental work done and it ended up being really.... taxing. (it was 'just' two wisdom teeth pulled, I didn't get a metal grill...yet).  I'm honestly just happy to have my marbles back and rolling around like I'm used to, again.

And now here we are, right in the middle of Cyber Monday weekend. Already. I had this idea hatch months ago but I never got around to completing it and don't expect to, again, this year.

Howeeeever.. I have done some more shopping and the sales, they are still ahead and not behind, yet..

Here's a shopping list so far...:

Memory.. One question I still have, is, with memory. Can my motherboard support (1) 16 gig stick or do I have to buy (2) 8 gig sticks. This question seems irrelevant, now, due to.. pricing. Whenever I do buy, presently, (2) 8 gig sticks seems the way to go, and, presently, DDR4 3200/PC25600 memory seems the speed it will go at. Memory price is ~ $100 (it's $115 but I know a good manufacturer will have it on sale before the Cyber weekend's up..).

Video... ugh.. Video is always so expensive.. On the other hand, all my shiz is ancient.. I have the funds.. and there is no better time of the year to buy. I *could* feasibly still use the video card I have now - it's still supported by Nvidia, and, it's fast enough to play what I play. If I do get a video card... I found a dual fan version of the Nvidia 1060 (6gb card) that had a lot of reviewers saying how cool and quiet it ran. I guess there is a single fan version, too, I should look at the fans... I didn't bother - I have dual fans now and like them. Price for video is ~$240.

Processor seemed to be one of the easier choices and I went with an AMD AM4... (current pre-Cyber Monday choice for) flavor: Ryzen 7 1700 8-core 3.ghz (and it looks like they are playing with Turbo Buttons, again..) It's 65 watts. It's one of the more expensive components, as ever, at under $220.

Motherboard took me awhile... I like nice, thick, solid, non-flexing, Gigabyte boards. Unfortunately I ran into a lot of bad reviews on the lower end ones.. I ended up with a midrange board that not only seems to have all the bells and whistles, but, also had good reviews on the onboard sound.. which.. is always a nice plus. I did not notice any major difference in Ratings (mine had fewer, but they were all good..) when it came to AM4 Chipsets... however.. I did notice that there are more than a few out there. Any recommendations or things to avoid? I picked a chipset that seems about average when it comes to availability - AMD X370.

I haven't looked super seriously at SSD's yet and they are confusing me.. M.2 is the fast bus, right...? But wait.. It's not just M.2.. It's PCIE 3 x4 ... Right? is that the fastest freeway?

Then what is Gen3...? Is Gen3 just another name for PCIE 3...?

My Wishlist MB supports M.2 PCIE 'Gen3' x 4 and the SSD I'm looking at says that it is M.2 PCIE 'Gen3' x4.. However, they also come up on a product search when I look for PCIE 3 x 4...

Windows is still overpriced and I don't want to use version 10 but I don't want to buy an overpriced version 7 with a shorter lifespan so I'll probably get the overpriced version 10 - Full Retail version - so that I can install it however I darn please with the minimum of hassle. One 1 machine... Maybe they have a sale on this, this weekend.

I probably won't buy anything, again, this year... But.. I thought I'd get a parts list together and see if the sales inspire me, anyway.. If I could save a few hundred bucks from my current wishlist and feel fairly secure in the tech I'd get, I just might do it.

Any tips would be appreciated!

Thanks for getting my juices flowing this year. Surely, I'll do this next year if not this one...
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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2018, 08:52:07 PM »
I considered buying a pre-built. The thought lasted an amazingly large fraction of a second. Like, maybe 1/4.

*shrug*

I've bought exactly 1 pre-built in 30+ years. It was an actual IBM (my second and last IBM chip) that was brand new in the box and pretty up to date and I paid exactly 500 bucks to a friend/co-worker. In a brown paper bag. JK. sorta.

There's good sales all year. This time of year is just... the absolute best. If, you know what you're looking for.

I don't.

I'm still a little fuzzy on busses. Busses are important because that is where tech is always going - wherever the largest freeway (potentially) is. Power consumption is important because that is where the tech is always going, too - less (relatively speaking to what is current with consumption) is more, when it comes to heat and efficient use of power. If, consumption is even a standout. And it currently does seem to be with DDR4 and 65 watt CPUs.

Speed is important (if my funds were unlimited it would be the only consideration) .. but.. Take memory, for example.. Currently there is a relatively huge and surprising difference in price with DDR4 based on how fast it's rated to go. But really... when I'm playing STO... how much am I going to notice which Flavor of DDR4 I have? The slowest DDR4 must surely blow away the DDRAncient that I'm currently using - and, memory must be the simplest thing to replace and the cheapest thing to ship - for if there ever comes a time that the high-end DDR4 looks attractive and I want to upgrade.  I can currently get midrange DDR4 for half the price or less of the fastest DDR4 and see no reason not to.. I mean we're talking a good $100 right there. Which, I can then pump into a much better quality motherboard.

You really don't want to cheap out on the mainboard.. (But who of us hasn't!! lol... at least once) I mean... eeeeeeverything plugs into it, ya know? You want it to boot...every time, and, you want everything that is current to be able to plug into it, and, in a sufficient quantity. It has to have enough of the slots that I foreseeably want, and, have them on a well built mainboard that is built for reliability as well as speed and is made with tech that you hope is where technology is going and therefore will get more support and luv and longevity. The mainboard is also pretty much the last thing you want to have to upgrade/fade from being current.

Hard drives... Whatever. Any SSD is a major upgrade to me at this point and there are so many cheap ones from good manufacturers... One thing, though, is slots. I want to get what's current/where the tech is going, and have enough of them on the mainboard. At this point... I would get tons of mileage from a $100 SSD to run Windows and games on and I can figure out something for the rest of my junk (mostly video), whenever - or, just run it from this PC.. Thing is, I bet there are going to be some huge SSDs on a huge sale this weekend just to tempt me into buying what I won't benefit from when it comes to the goal of this build - to build the best PC possible with which to play what I already have and foreseeably want to try.

Usually I'd involve a few weeks of Anandtech in this process.. I dunno if Anandtech even exists anymore. I'm sure Google knows but I didn't check.

The thing for me to look out for this weekend might be the thing I thought of buying, last... Video. What better thing to buy when the sales are biggest.. and what's the easiest thing to make a decent decision on..? Just get whatever's the most current that makes your eyes bulge when you see the sale price. Windows 10 Retail is pretty much a no-brainer, too. If they have it half price, I'm all over it.. whether I have a PC to put it in or not.




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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2018, 11:16:04 PM »
An AM3 build...

You know what, AM4's are kinda pricey.. Everything else seems OK about an AM4 build costwise, but, these CPUs *are* ~ a hundred dollars more than what I'd expect due to how much all the other tech is costing.

The thing is... The CPU is the Onnnnly pricey thing in an AM4 build.. so far as I can see. So far.

It does give me pause and rethinkage. I hate to see the price of a (CPU, in this case) single part keep me from upgrading to a whole, newer, albeit not huge leap-stepping, generation of memory and mainboards/chipsets. I hate to spend over $200 instead of over $50, too.. Still.. It's a single part we're talking about, so far as I see, so far, holding up a whole generation upgrade - a generation that will likely take years for developers to take full advantage of, which, buys more years on the longevity scale - which, could well be worth $150 (or whatever it is, exactly, I have to look it up again)..

Unless some huge leap is on the near horizon, I'm still leaning towards AM4 and DDR4.

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2018, 02:01:01 PM »
I see a Ryzen 5 (95w..) for 1/3rd off already...  : D

I saw one of the fastest looking M.2 NVMe (I'm Lurning!) and best rated 500gb SSD drives... for $100.

I saw OEM Windows for $89... if it were $50 I'd get it - otherwise, I think I'm done with hassling with OEM's..

Motherboards have been a real sticking point for me.. I might even have a build put together and be checking out Intel by now. Intel and ATI, the two companies I avoid out of habit, look tempting for the first time in forever and I'm not even shopping for them. ATI is ancient and used to be great, but, I've had (in super limited experience) nothing but hassle with their drivers in more modern times as compared to Nvidia's fire and forget drivers. AMD and Nvidia have also simply become comfortable, to me. Especially AMD.

Anyway. Usually this is a no-brainer. Grab a good looking Gigabyte board and call it done - the only decision was how much to spend on what model..

Gigabyte is getting horrible reviews lately.. I mean I scoured them, too, because I really, really, want a Gigabye board. I mean, come on, this one's lasted me 12+ years and still's getting the job done, huh? It's not my first, either. MSI on the other hand... looks like they are currently doing interesting things (I've bought MSI before, too) and I finally have found at least 1 motherboard that I feel halfway comfortable buying that's made by them.

The only thing that could make me buy, this weekend, is if all the planets came into alignment.. I didn't spend any time at all researching what techs are saying about the new tech, for one thing.. which makes me feel like I'm flying blind. It's also been 12 years since I built anything.. Bad combo.

However... I did spend a lot of hours yesterday scouring what's available, costs, and reviews (which are unreliable many dimes due to they are made by sincere people that are having problems - but, likely it's user error - that's why it's good to hit the tech forums for reviews, especially for motherboards, which, I have not done. yet.). Well, and, my shiz is old - I can't hardly go wrong, and, I'm especially ready to upgrade due to my Video drivers are going on 1 year old already due to I can't update them anymore on this PC.

The sales on what I think I want would have to be super, super, great to make me want to buy right now - but, if they were, and all the stuff I think I want is hundreds of bucks less than normal... *shrug* I might just do it.

One odd and interesting thing was in AM3 chips.. They have integrated Video// how weird.. Is it any good/quirky?? Saving a hundred bucks on a processor *and* over a hundred bucks on a video card might make shopping more interesting. I'd have to be able to put together a super cheap AM3 system to make it attractive to me.

Anyway - if anyone has anything to contribute, go for it : D

I'll have to build a new PC, eventually.... so, the info willllll get used, eventually...  : )

Edit...

The main things I'm looking for right now are more info on NVMe and AM3's integrated graphics.

If I get an SSD, it's going to be NVMe, but, it is looking like there is still a relatively small percentage of motherboards directly supporting it. I have read that there is a slot upgrade for motherboards not supporting NVMe as-shipped that is fairly inexpensive and easy to install..?

I am assuuuuuming that I can't just have a PCIE 3 x 4 slot... I must also have NVMe translation, right...?

As for AM3 integrated graphics... a $50 processor with a free integrated video card could be appealing, if, the video card is any good... Is it? Is it wonky in any way? Does AM4 have integrated graphics, I haven't noticed.. If so, same questions + is the video significantly better than what's in AM3's?



: )
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 03:36:45 PM by Xev »
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Tahquitz

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2018, 07:15:04 PM »
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2018, 02:25:33 AM »
Thanks TQ! I will give this a couple of re-reads before the weekend is up.

One thing about (good old..) Tom's Hardware list... It confirms my luv of the GeForce 1060 6gb flavor - now it just has to cost ~ 70 bucks less, which, I bet it will - I think I already saw a good one (dual fans, good company, good reviews) for ~ $230.

Tom's list doesn't mention anything about integrated graphics.. If they're good enough to play games as well as they play for me, now, on my 6 year old GeForce GTX 660 that sits in a 12 year old PC.. and I can build a super duper cheap PC around them... That might be something to consider. I don't mind building a whole new PC in a year or two or three nearly as much, if, I pay next to nothing, now.

Integrated graphics sound scary, stability and speedwise, though!

I'm starting to think about building a system around the Video card.. The very thing I said could be worried about, anytime. If I can get modern muscle in PC at a reasonable price, yay, but, putting a really cheap and stable (old tech..) machine together that has a PCIe (3? 3rd gen?) x16 slot in it for a Cyber Monday priced GeForce 1060 6gb... and give it a (cheap) reasonably fast and reliable hard drive/SSD... that might make sense, too.

Thanks for the pre-built link! Pre-builts are so tempting.. I mean, I even need to shop for a case. I think I can get a decent one local. I think. I've had crappy cases for so many years, I'd kinda like to get a good one again for the next decade or two. Pre-builts often come with pretty decent looking cases and I don't have to make any decisions, other than, does everything look OK that they picked, and, I don't have to worry about troubleshooting doa parts, or, screw-ups on my side - I can blame the pre-builders for all my problems. *click* *unpack* *plug-in* *start installing* (Hopefully, or, call for RMA..) doesn't sound awful.

I have to go through everything again, pricewise, and I'll re-read your info, too. I like to look at things from all angles before I lock myself into a certain way of thinking. Older, more stable, cheap cheap cheap tech (if it really is) may be even more attractive than building a PC that is relevant 12 years from now. It depends on if the 'old' AM3 tech really is a lot more seasoned/stable and if it really is a lot cheaper. I wasn't seeing a huge price difference in AM4 vs. AM3 tech, except in the cost of the processer itself but I'm going to give the cheap route another look.. just to see what kind of savings we're really talking about. Sometimes tech that's a generation back is smarter, like if it's way more stable and cheap and yet still pretty darn relevant. Sometimes not.

I'm cheap but I don't like to cheap out on my PC's unless it makes sense to at the time.


Motherboard busses aren't really what I choose focus on,

That's because you are up to date on them! The last I knew, PCIe was PCIe.. there was no nvme, we had USB 2?, there were not so many flavors of SATA and DDR and we weren't burning Blu-Rays.. I don't have all the new tech memorized and prioritized. I don't know what's on it's way out, what's on it's way in, what the actual performance differences are, what you really want to have, what you don't really have to care about.. What's buggy, what's stable... What Everyone Wants, today.

For example.. when PCIe was new and you asked me 'hey, should I stick with PCI?' I'd say, nuuuuuu. Because PCIe was super yummy goodness (to get technical) and I jumped all over it at the first opportunity and never looked back. 

I think I've built a PC with a Biostar mb before, too. I used to build a new PC every year or two, and, now that I think of it.. yeah, I used more than 1 cheap MB in the beginning.. It's pure luck if you have problems or not - your odds are way better if you only use the thing a year or two.

When I worked for a large corporation... we had a whole department of 100 people or so using PCs that had cheap motherboards in them that was sitting in the case on the cardboard box that they came in...LOL! No screws, nothing. I think I saw ... Scotch Tape holding them in.. All the things had to do was touch metal in the case due to getting bumped or whatever and *bzzzzt!* It was a real treat meeting the tech that actually talked the department head into going for the idea and OKing the purchase as well as the rollout. Nearly 20 years later and it still makes me shake my head in disbelief.

Mucho Thankos, again! Much appreciated  : ) I'll be back for a fresh round of questions soon, I'm sure  : D
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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2018, 02:15:53 PM »
Here's a possibly interesting thought....

I need a case, a power supply, and Windows 10...

A case is at least 50 bucks, ~ same for power supply and Windows 10 is $100+ = $200+

Now..

I am seeing entire PC's for sale for this price and even less..

The only bad thing I can think of, is.... what version of Windows are they using...? (And how cheap is the power supply.) I bet you almost anything that it's OEM.. If it's OEM than I can't use it when I rebuild the PC that Windows came on... which isn't a deal-killer... due to I'll still be getting everything I need (really, I just want a machine that runs STO smooth, and, that I can update drivers with, and, has Windows 10..), and about as cheap as possible... but.. it sure sours the plan.

Some of these cheap machines come with Windows 7.. I don't care about that if it's an OEM due to an OEM isn't going to help me in the long run, anyway. Even a cheap Windows 7 machine with a GeForce 1060 in it would probably blow away what I have  for under $500 and all I have to do is put in a video card as far as building goes..

I sure wish I knew if these were OEM Windows or not.. I mean, it makes a $100+ difference in usable parts that I can migrate to a new-new machine.. If they had Windows 10 Full Retail then it makes the idea a lot more attractive.

The PSU has to be decent, too.

Thoughts?

I'm thinking I can put a new video card in these cheap systems and have a better PC than I have now, and, with a longer lifespan 64-bit operating system with which I can download the latest video drivers.. Which, is the essence of my main goal. Then, I can shop until next Cyber Monday... much more informed and with way better NVMe SSDs available for cheaper and build a beast.

Is a thought.

If these machines came with Full Retail versions of windows 10 - it'd be a no-brainer. $200 for a better PC than I have now with over $200 in parts that I can rebuild with when the time comes. Or.. what I have now.. $800ish+ for as modern a machine as I can put together with the info and tech I currently have available to me.

*thumbs through more sales*

~~~

I just noticed that most of the stuff in my Wish List... is Sold Out... lol

*sigh*

: )

Time to research plan B.. with the $100 less processor that goes over 500mhz faster and runs twice as hot.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 03:13:32 PM by Xev »
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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2018, 08:01:40 PM »
Oh, SNAP!

AMD RYZEN 5 1500X 4-Core 3.5 GHz... at a yummy 65 watts... for... $120..

GTX 1060 6gb flavor, dual fans - good company & reviews - $240..

The rest of the stuff just needs to be ... reliable. The main luxury I'm thinking about, now, is M.2 slots - number of, and what I need to install the fastest SSD that is on the market, today - tomorrow.

Another luxury I'm looking at is Full ATX motherboards. The cost is comparable to mini-atx and so are the reviews. I never liked tiny motherboards - or paper thin ones. I like big, fat, airy, cases, too. I've had to cram too many things into too many small cases and I like my PC heat sources to be as least crammed together as possible on the mainboard. Runs cooler = runs better & lives longer.

P.S.
The integrated graphics question got answered.. No thanks.. Too bad! It could have helped make an interesting cheap as possible to get me by, build.
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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2018, 12:09:53 AM »
Whew, I'm worn out.

One last question.... for now... I suddenly realize I have no idea what a good wattage is for a power supply, today.. I mean.. I guess I can go back and add up all the numbers..lol..but, nah.. I'm wore out.

Used to be that 500 watts was plenty, but.. lots of things used to be. I hope they aren't any/much higher than this, today, in a midrange gaming PC. I mean, ya know.. 500 watts is already kinda a lot of juice for something that runs as much as I run my PC. I know I don't run at peak watts all the time and I may not even ever reach them, but, ya know what I mean.

I very nearly have a PC put together, btw - using the Ryzen 5 1500x and 6gb GTX 1060 and 28800 memory. Which, brings up another thing that didn't hit me fully until now - why in the world are there so many DDR4 speeds??? and are any of them slow enough to actually slow down my games enough to warrant buying anything faster..  There sure as hell is a large price difference in the different flavors!

I got all the way down to picking a case (such good sales now on mid-towers, too.....) and then this thing with the power supply and memory came up and I looked at the mess around me and my hungry dog and another setting sun and decided to re-join the living : D

I hope you aren't going to tell me that 800 watt power supplies are a thing, now.. And I hope you are going to tell me that, really, there isn't a whole lot of noticeable difference between PC 28800 (I think that is the number I priced..) memory and the higher rated stuff - and that, really, DDR4, merely due to its nature of it being DDR4, is going to be plenty fast in any flavor, and, not bottleneck my CPU. And, you have to mean it!  : )
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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2018, 02:40:09 PM »
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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2018, 06:41:50 PM »
Sorry to spam new info.. I dunno why I don't just edit my huge @ss posts into even bigger ones..

check this baby out!

https://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator

Not only does it seem to be about as accurate as anything else - it helps calculates your light bill! How cool is that.

I think I can still get by with a 550 watt PSU, today... but.. I might go 650 or even 750 just for the cush. I'm no electrician... Does it matter how far over I go in wattage capability in a PSU when it comes to efficiency..? (or in any way, at all..) I mean, if I'm using under 500 watts at peak in my foreseeable future - is it smarter to get a 550 watt...650 watt...or 750 watt..?

I mean, we can say "plan for the future and get more watts" but 550 watts is and has been plenty, since... decades? Are we really expecting watts to go up, or down... or, moar likely, will they just bounce up and down, yet stay under the max of what we're used to purchasing for in a PSU...

On the other hand.. does it matter? If my peak load is under 500 watts, will I use more electricity if I get a 750 watt PSU? Will it be any more or less stable? If I got a 550 or 750 watt?

I'm leaning towards a 750 watt simply due to there's a billion of them on the market and they're cheap. I've got a super sweet looking Full Tower picked out.. My finest ever, by far.. and for 50 bucks. It's got mixed reviews but the bad reviews seem to focus on the cabling (for case mounted USB ports and whatnot) that I won't even use. Will I? Or did something change here, too? I should be able to just plug everything into the back, as ever, huh? I don't *need* a cable from the case for anything except the power button, huh?

On my current PC I don't even have a power button coming from the case... : D You have to know how to jumpstart it.. There's no power button, anywhere. I just never got around to getting a new one when I lost/broke the switch in the old one (somehow).. I thought I'd fry something doing things that way, but... 12+ years...!

These fancy new cases and fancy new tech don't require me to actually use any case connectors, do they? If not, then, I could care less about the cabling on the sweet case I found - the size, layout, and ventilation make it well worth the cost as long as it doesn't rattle annoyingly with all fans going.. which, no one mentioned it doing.


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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2018, 07:52:59 PM »
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 08:21:07 PM by Xev »
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