Author Topic: What would you build?  (Read 30994 times)

Power Arc X

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2018, 03:56:18 AM »
I   was just messing around on the Fry's  Electronics website and the best I could do at the moment  was  $600.31 for a build based on the GTX  1060 card taking up $219.99 of the total. I   would keep an eye on their website for the Weekly  Deals. They often sell motherboards w/processor  combos. I  basically  got my processors for free that way 2 years ago.
There are a few YouTube  channels that can also give information  on all the motherboards, vid cards, SSD's , ram and processors. Here are three I enjoy watching.
1. JayzTwoCents   
2. Paul's Hardware
3. Linus Tech Tips or any of his channels as he does have several  of them. He has an a great video on how to set up your SSD to run Windows  and making the old HDD  as the storage  device.

Another  website that's  nice for looking  at the hardware numbers is Passmark.

I'm  not  sure  if  any of this will help but maybe it will.







Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2018, 05:21:28 PM »

I'm  not  sure  if  any of this will help but maybe it will.

Yeah, this all helps! We seem to be on a similar wavelength.

First, I have to ask... for $600.31... did you include.... *hiss* Windows? If so, which flavor and how much did it cost?

*without* Windows and with a 1060... My shopping cart is at ... $619.95

So, we are either doing similarly, or, you are slightly blowing me away.

I was thinking this weekend that I really need to get more retailers I trust.. If I can get all my stuff from Newegg, I like to, due to I've had good luck ordering from them and they usually have at least half the good prices I find anyway, or more. I can look up my account from 12 years ago and see all the parts I used to put together the PC I'm clacking away on right now. Which was handy once or twice.

I get stuff from Amazon...

And really, that's about it.

I've used whoever was cheapest and didn't look like a blatant ripoff, in the past - and had pretty good luck, really. But I'm kinda not like that anymore.

So. Yeah. Info on new retailers is great! More than 2 would be good. If things continue to go not super crappy for me I hope to start getting back into at least building my own stuff, again. This weekend kinda helped get me back in the swing.

And you're right! There's sales all the time. This Cyber Monday was kinda unimpressive to me, really.. I mean, I can't tell you one thing that was WOW - that they don't already do on weekly sales, sometimes.. I haven't been shopping much, but, I have been monitoring my Newegg folder full of well over 100 Newegg Sale mails.

So what did you use for Windows in your 600 bucks?? Tell me.... *nothing* plx  : ) then I'll feel happier about my $620 - which, looks like a kinda badass macheen. I reallllly like the case. I'm gonna have the thing forever, so why not get a good one (for $50......). If there is anything I've learned - keeping things from getting hot and dusty helps keep things from going kaput. Well, and, a not tiny case is way easier to work in, usually.

~~~

OH! and...... what did you choose for memory (speed)..? I have 16 gig in my build - it's PC 28800 but I can save like 20 or 30 bucks with 24000..and might. I can't imagine there being that much of a difference - but then again, all these flavors of DDR4 baffles me. The price difference is fairly huge depending on the speed you think you want - I have no idea what the actual real life visual difference is between the different DDR4 speeds on a ryzen 3 system when it comes to games.

I can't imagine manufacturers making/selling cripplingly low speed DDR4... but then again.. why is it double the price, or more, for high end DDR4 vs. low end...? and why a billion flavors in-between? I know that processors are partly to blame, due to they all don't support the same DDR4, but still!

Or is that the secret...? Are old AM4 processors so old... that any cheap DDR4 memory will drive them - but if you have a ryzen 3 (in my case) .. you wanna have at least PC xxxxx... And if that *is* so... what is xxxxx?

~~~

oops.. my build has no PSU, either.. so.. add another 40 bucks. That brings me up to ~ 660 dolaros, assuming I won't buy any of this stuff on sale, which, we can't assume. The only thing on sale right now is the case. And, again, I haven't decided on what flavor of Windows.. so there's another 90 - 130 dollars. I'll probably subtract at least 20 bucks from the memory cost. I can't see paying 20% more for such a small gain from the next step down - well, and, the memory I have in my shopping cart right now is not on sale anymore.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 09:23:57 PM by Xev »
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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2018, 02:09:02 PM »
Something in my favor, sorta, is I run at 1080p. Sooo I don't have to push out nearly as many pixels as those running at 4k.

Man those 4k TV's are sweet.. I saw a 50 inch yesterday while I was wasting time waiting for a prescription at w-mart for just over.. $200? Wow.

But then... you have to have a rig that costs at least $200 more to run it properly!

Still, that's today. Yesterday, 1080p was huge. The day before that, 20" monitors were huge. The day before that 16 colors was pretty good and 256 was wow.

I would argue that 4k is worth building for when the tech to run it becomes mainstream/cheaper. Just beautiful. The tech to run it can't stay expensive forever, either.

Running 1080p on the other hand shouldn't be a big challenge for today's tech I wouldn't think. For example, any Ryzen with a(ny, likely) GTX 1060 and non crippling speed ram (whatever that is..) should blaze through most games at a measly 1080p I'd think.

I'm sure looking forward to the day I plop a 55" or so 4k screen in front of me. I'm looking forward to the step after that, too. It's been a fun ride. I'm glad I got on when I did even though I haven't been able to keep up for awhile.

I have to wonder who is buying monitors for home use anymore and why? TV's are just so ... cheap. Huge. And they look great. I'm perfectly happy with the one I have except that I want the new 4k tech, now.
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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2018, 02:07:27 PM »
Besides being able to have higher resolutions and curved screens, I can't think of anything I'd use a monitor for over a T.V. and I don't even have enough powah to powah a 4k TV. I started using TVs when movies started coming out on DVD... and I stopped using monitors completely when I came back to the States ~ 15 years ago.

For home use, who is still buying monitors..?

If it weren't for the video driver issue I'm having (I don't want to fool with updating this PC to 64-bit Windows) I wouldn't even be shopping for a new PC. I play old games that run fine on my old PC..

But, I do have the driver issue and I have been saving for years for a frivolous purchase... sooooo.. that's what started all of this. And I figured if I was going to build a PC, may as well do it like I always did.. to be as modern as is reasonable/possible and as futureproof as possible for as little money as possible without skimping on quality - as a goal  : )

You definitely don't need a hotrod to play what I play, though. I might even suggest building a PC similar to the ancient one I'm clacking away on right now if that is your only goal. You could probably put one together for like 20 bucks. Or so  : D + Windows and a Case if needed..

~~~~

OH! And.. TQ.. I wasn't poking fun at you, above, with all the quote dissecting. I was admiring who *you* quoted. In my way. It takes a seasoned Consultant, such as in your quote, to say so much while saying so little. If you know what I mean... : ) It's a fine art.. I've delved in it.. I've seen masters at it.. I was just poking fun at who you quoted, not you  : ) I totally appreciate you helping to get my brain where I was trying to get it.


« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 02:22:34 PM by Xev »
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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2018, 11:42:55 PM »
OK so I was updating my Wish Lists... and had to share this neat motherboard feature.

One of the less fun things I remember about plugging everything into the motherboard was setting the jumpers and plugging in LEDs.. This seems so handy it almost seems overdue:



First, you plug everything into the plug-plug, and then, you plug the plug-plug onto the motherboard over the jumper block.. No more digging around for tiny little jumpers that fell off and into the case, somewhere, when setting/resetting them. No more squinting inside your case at the jumper block etching or referencing the motherboard manual to see what you need to plug in next, where..

~~~

btw..

With tax and shipping and a OEM Windows compromise, I'm sitting at just under... 900 bananas.. 900! Ouch..

Other than Windows OEM (ugh..) there isn't much compromise. It's got a Ryzen processor, dual fan 6gb GTX 1060, super fast ~ 500gb SSD boot drive, 16 gig of DDR4, a full ATX motherboard with fat pcb and good components, and, a nice roomy/airy case and decent looking 650 watt psu,

If I further lower my standards to just building an acceptably satisfying/modern, stable, Ryzen system.. and swapped out the video/hd/motherboard... I could probably save $150ish.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 01:36:55 AM by Xev »
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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2018, 09:25:31 PM »
650 bananas..

The cheapest I can build a system that I can stomach, for, is, almost exactly 650 bananas, currently. I've seen some of the components cheaper in sales, so, I could save a few bananas if I get every part or its equivalent when it goes on sale. I could maybe get that number down closer to $600, delivered.

I had to compromise on... just about everything, except, I upgraded to a Full version of Windows. Still unsure about that $20 decision. I kept the case and power supply that I liked. Everything else got downgraded.

AMD A series won the processor contest, barely - I don't like the integrated graphics - even though I'm assuming you can completely disable them. I *do* like that they are AM4 socket - due to AM3+ motherboards are getting more scarce and more expensive. I also like that everyone says they run cool, and, they are 65 watts.

A dual fan, 3gb, GTX 1050 continues the low power consumption/low heat trend with a video card that doesn't even need it's own power plug and has fans that don't even need to come on all the time.

I dumped the 16 gig of RAM in favor of faster 8 gig memory that cost about half as much.

I did keep an SSD boot drive - a 500gb sata III. I have no other drives. I won't install anything but Windows and a few games on it, soooooo... Why not. I just hope it's not a pain to make it a boot drive - due to it's my first.

What I basically did, to guide me, with this build, was look at what I had now, that works perfectly fine besides the huge load times and inability to update the video driver, and modernized it.

This $650 system gives me way faster video (and with less heat/power) than I have now and I already run at max settings on my old games.
It gives me twice the memory I have, now, and I get by pretty well with what I have, now..

It gives me a much more modern processor - however the processor has less cores and a similar clock speed.. which doesn't instill a bunch of confidence. Still - anything not much below this processor was often actually even more expensive - and anything significantly above it is about double in price. I think my current processor uses twice the juice, too.

It gives me wayyyyyyy faster storage/boot.

I have to keep what gigabytes I have left on (this) my old PC, on my old PC. Which is ok - I kinda want to see how long I can keep this PC running well.. and the thought of having a backup PC sounds good, too.

And, I end up with a nice new case and psu, and, hopefully Windows 10 will still be around when I get around to upgrading next. This gives me like $200 in parts I don't have to buy next time, hopefully. I mean, psu's go out whenever they want to and who knows how long Windows 10 will be around or when I'll upgrade my PC next, but... there is that possibility.

I bare minimum get to carry a good case over, next time! That would have bought me a Ryzen upgrade in this build..

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2018, 07:52:38 PM »
Windows...again..

This is supposed to be how migrating OEM Windows works, today..

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/20530/windows-10-reactivating-after-hardware-change

Supposedly, as long as you unlink your Windows from your old hardware and re-link it to your new, you can carry your OEM Windows 10 from machine to machine to machine - as long as you go through the re-activation process, and, only have Windows installed and activated on 1 PC.

I mean.. It's Windows.. Once it's installed, are you really going to care whether it is OEM or not? It's the same thing, functionally. The main thing, is, you want is to be able to transfer it in case you build a new PC/perform a major upgrade before there is a new Windows so you don't have to spend the $100+ that you didn't want to spend the first time, again.
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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2018, 08:49:07 PM »
The case I want, is.... ~ $130.

Here is the $36 (not on sale) case I'm willing to settle for.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811853003

The only bad thing about this case is its size. It's not small but it's not a big Bertha, like I want.

Having said that.. There's Fans.. everywhere.

There is place for fan(s) on the side/door - this was very important to me. I ventilate air from my case, now, from the door panel, and, it works excellently. You aren't dragging air *over* anything (drives/memory/processor/video card/chipsets) - you're dragging air directly out of the case.

It also drags air out of the top... very sensible.. and it drags air through the front and pushes it out the back (it'll never make it past the door panel before getting sucked out ... but that's the flow.).

The power supply sits on the bottom. This is new for me. I guess it works. It keeps the power supply cooler, instead of using it as an exhaust fan for that case that also supplies power to the motherboard. It was questionable to me at first due to I don't like the idea of putting a heat source at the bottom of the case - but.. that heat has like 3 ways to get sucked out.. sooooo.. I can live with this design, I think  : ) Power Supplies need love too (or they fail) and with this design - the power supply gets a lot more love than is normal, rather than doubling as an exhaust fan for case heat. (mine gets similar love, due to .. my case sits on its face).

Getting rid of heat is very, very important. So is controlling dust. I would like to have a bigger case that is easier to work around in - but... at ~ 18 inches square and 8+ inches in depth - it's about as big as what I usually end up with... (*sigh*). It's not a horrible size. If it were a mini-tower then it could sell for $10 and have all the fans in the world and I wouldn't be interested. This case is very tempting, though.

If you're on a budget, cases can be hard to shop for! It's a commitment..

Your gear is gonna sit in that thing for it's entire life, most likely. More likely, several sets of gear will sit in that case, as you upgrade.. The cooler and more dust-free it stays, the longer and better it will run (barring acts of Pepsi spills and such). I've had such a bastard of a time (metal finger cuts.. stuff doesn't all fit...cramming cables) putting some systems together in a small case, too. Whereas - in a large case.... as long as your cables reach... it's *heaven*. And they don't pack all your heat sources as closely together, either.

Anyway, there are tons of great $100+ cases and no single one of them stands out enough to write about, but, at under $40.. I was really surprised at how nice this case seems. Nice enough to possibly save me ~ $50.

Disclaimer:
I'm not into advertising for anyone. They have great pics of this case on Newegg is why I use their link, and, I don't know anything about the company that makes this case. Also, I obviously have not tried this case and so if you buy it and it sucks (for some unimaginable reason, I can't see any real red flags in the 600+ reviews) - sorry.. Buyer Beware! If I ever end up buying it, I'll post again  : )

I'm only posting about this case due to looking at 10 billion of them online and finally seeing one that stands out from the rest for someone on a tight budget that doesn't want to compromise when it comes to performance and life of components.
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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2018, 01:48:10 AM »
This... you have to see.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/10736 (what happens when your short support period expires)

~~~

Has anyone used Linux? Does it run your games?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 05:06:46 AM by Xev »
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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2018, 07:33:31 PM »
Windows has been deleted from my shopping cart.

I don't know how well Linux will work out for me, but, I didn't start with Windows on my IBM compatible PCs and with the hundreds of posts I've seen on sites as large as Amazon about stolen Product I.D.s, and, with Microsoft's increasingly difficult upgrade/migration policies, I'm ready to at least try something else, again.

I'm also ready to get more control of my PC back, again, rather than being separated farther and farther away from it with every new version of Windows.

I realize Linux doesn't have the industry support that Windows does and I realize my games may not run very well (or maybe they will) and I'm not looking for Linux to save the day for me, but, I'm going to let it try  : ) I like that it is customizable and doesn't seem to lock the user out of their PC as much. I like that it doesn't come from Microsoft who definitely needs some competition out there. I like that it runs on 99% of the world's supercomputers... I like that it's based on something older than DOS, UNIX. I like that it can be made to look like the Windows interface that I have become comfortable with.

I don't mind putting up with the learning curve if it can do what I want it to. Saving $130 and having all my Windows worries go away sounds pretty nice. I'm not sure I can afford Microsoft Windows, anymore. Or if I even want to.
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Tahquitz

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2018, 09:15:55 PM »
This... you have to see.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/10736 (what happens when your short support period expires)

~~~

Has anyone used Linux? Does it run your games?

Yeah, the lifecycle is concerning people who don't update their computers.  You don't need to buy any of those versions of Windows 10 once you get a license for it, they're all free of charge.  But you do need to update the operating system every 18 months in order to keep getting security updates.

Even when those dates pass you up and you get messages that you're 'unprotected', if you just run Update Assistant once, you're caught back up.  No charge.  I've done this on countless laptops at work that teachers didn't use for one reason or another.

That being said, not giving Linux a black eye... Steam did put an effort out to make the client available on Linux, and there's a lot of indie games that support Linux.  But the AAA developers won't budge on Windows support, so it's unlikely to run Dragon Age or Fallout 4 anytime soon without hacking the hell out of the game files or configuring and reconfiguring PlayOnLinux or Wine endlessly.  If your gaming tastes are away from the bleeding edge, it's possible to be very happy with Linux as a gaming machine.

As a fair warning, since most of us tend towards MMO titles: most MMOs do not support Linux.  Despite that, there's a community of players who do use it and share their configurations with others... with the caveat that you need to be your own tech support: if it doesn't work, they can guide you, but you need to be willing to do the footwork most of the way.  Folks who come at the Linux community with the expectation of Microsoft's Tech Support forums will be met with silence.  (Volunteers have a different code of ethics regarding user support: if you demand it and know nothing about the problem you're complaining about, you're on your own.  If you do your homework and ask questions instead, you'll get a reply... maybe not right away, but eventually.)

Star Trek Online Wiki has instructions for a basic MacOS or Linux setup here.

And if you want to install Linux and Windows 10 on the same machine, you totally can. (Dual-boot over Virtual Machine is advised for gaming: Virtual Machines have less access to hardware resources.)  Use Windows 10 for the stingy titles that insist on DRM, and Linux for the others.
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Tahquitz

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2018, 09:45:47 PM »
I forgot to mention, 32-bit support in Linux distributions is also going away over time.  This isn't a unilateral move that all distributions are accepting at the same time, but most have their own timeframe to end 32-bit distributions.  The last Ubuntu LTS that supports 32-bit is 16.04Fedora 29 supports 32-bit and is available now, but the server release dropped 32-bit in 2016... over time, they'll drop 32-bit from Workstation releases as well.

This isn't a business decision but rather a practical one.  Most people with computers these days use a 64-bit system, so there's not enough 32-bit users who are in the developer/quality assurance community to test a 32-bit distribution before release.  And with Intel's drop of BIOS before 2020, it'll be a stranger use case of installing Linux with testing 32-bit Linux on UEFI.  (Most people won't bother and just get the 64-bit one that doesn't support BIOS.)  Linux was happy to pick up the gap when Windows announced that Windows Server 2008 R2 would only work on 64-bit systems going forward, but it's almost 10 years later, and 64-bit systems have proliferated immensely as 32-bit only systems age further.

The point: compared to the above policies from Microsoft, Linux is pretty close to the same deadline.  I use Ubuntu for most of my stuff in Linux.  If you use a 32-bit system, security updates will still come down for Ubuntu LTS for 5 years, so 2021 will be when those stop too.  (One year later than Intel's decision to cull CSM/BIOS mode from new systems.) It's easier to accept a lifecycle policy from Linux with all installations being free (as F/LOSS insists, not "Free as in Beer" but "Free as in Speech": they want users to report bugs and give feedback, not just passively use it and ignore problems.)  But similar to Windows 10, the fix for a loss of support is to install the latest version.  And with the end of 32-bit, a distribution upgrade means replacing the computer, or accepting 16.04 without security updates.

But if you're buying a new computer, none of this applies.  A 64-bit installer will be fine.  And UEFI will work... the "Secure Boot" problem that Microsoft/OEMs imposed on the Linux community has long since been solved, you can install Linux and keep Secure Boot on using UEFI and GUID Partition Tables instead of BIOS and MBR based partitions prevalent with 32-bit systems.
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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2018, 11:55:13 PM »
You don't need to buy any of those versions of Windows 10 once you get a license for it, they're all free of charge.  But you do need to update the operating system every 18 months in order to keep getting security updates.

This confuses me.


Even when those dates pass you up and you get messages that you're 'unprotected', if you just run Update Assistant once, you're caught back up.  No charge.  I've done this on countless laptops at work that teachers didn't use for one reason or another.


Are you saying that after 18 months I can still download updates - I just have to do it manually?

That not terribly up to date guide on installing STO is semi-ugly. Constantly updating my Linux so that STO keeps working properly doesn't sound super great, either.

I'm not worried about getting past the Linux learning curve, but, I'm not wanting to go back 30 years to where you're a genius just because you can get/keep your games running well. I was hoping that due to how old it is, Linux would be past a lot of that by now.

32-bit & UEFI..

Hardwarewise I'm already 64-bit, but, long story short, I don't want to wipe this PC and re-set it up with 64-bit Windows 7. I don't want to have any license issues pop up with this old Educational copy of Windows 7 that I haven't re-installed since 2009 and am not sure I have the correct Product I.D. for, for one thing. This machine wakes me up in the morning, plays my Lost in Space... gets me on the Internet, checks my e-mail and weather... and I play games on it. If it ain't broke.... and, all that *is* broke, is, STO.... So I'm not gonna risk breaking everything else to fix STO. Basically. Besides, my machine is just old - it needs replacing before it eventually wears out from use, so, I hopefully won't be relying on this PC for gaming for too much longer, which, is the only reason I need to update to 64-bit at this point, so I can update video drivers. But, due to its age and how well it still works... I want to find a way to keep using it. I've prayed for this thing to stay together so many times I don't have the heart to dismantle it before it dies...lol. Besides, I still get tons of use out of it. *shrug* I think I never didn't cannibalize/toss my old PC when upgrading before - I always did before this PC.

But anyway, yeah, I could install 64-bit on this machine if I wanted to, and, had an OS to do it with.

This machine is so old, though, that I think a whole new system is called for. It's just that old. Although...if I really wanted.. I could use the PSU, and, the GTX 660 video card that is in it could be used in a new machine, too - it's plenty powerful for the 10ish year old games I play.. I just don't have the heart to do it! lol.. dumb, huh. The luxury of having a backup PC could be nice, too, and, that PSU and Video card are... of significantly diminished lifespan.

But if you're buying a new computer, none of this applies.  A 64-bit installer will be fine.  And UEFI will work... the "Secure Boot" problem that Microsoft/OEMs imposed on the Linux community has long since been solved, you can install Linux and keep Secure Boot on using UEFI and GUID Partition Tables instead of BIOS and MBR based partitions prevalent with 32-bit systems.

Are you saying that these problems that you told me about when this topic began and that I am just now beginning to understand, have already resolved themselves? : ) If I understand correctly, this is good news. I didn't like reading about dual boots going away with UEFI, which, I still don't understand correctly (what UEFI is), but, that I see it in my recent shopping, and, it looks like it will be in my future.

I'd love to be able to get rid of Windows altogether... for at least awhile.. on a new PC. I wouldn't mind trying Linux on a dual boot on this PC, either. I've been a pretty solid Windows person for decades on my own machine and in support teams I was a go-to for Windows, but.. it dawns on me that, that is not how I started. It's just how I ended up. Windows(/Microsoft) was dominate, and worked, and not *overly* annoying/constricting (until now, again?), so I went with the Winner.

I haven't been this Un-sold on Windows since Windows 386 when I was using Quarterdeck's Q-Windows on my Tandy 386 and thought the ever-crashing Microsoft Windows 386 had no future at all. I haven't seriously considered a new OS, since... Windows 3.11, when Windows stole the market and I was finally assimilated. I've been content enough until now. Stuff worked, it wasn't too expensive, the updates and hacks haven't been too annoying.

I'm not content at all, with, my control slowly going away (Windows used to just boot and run like any other program - your PC was your PC to do whatever in the world you wanted if you had the tools.. Windows was just another app..) and being replaced with commercialism/advertising/stuff I have to turn off in Windows, or the tons of stolen licenses on the market (whose stolen license did you get? Maybe Mine.. I know that I can likely overcome this if it happens but I don't want to deal with the possibility of it if I can avoid it), and outrageous pricing/short product life (we went from not really having to have a license... to being able to buy one every decade or so... to having to buy one every 18 months - and, for a higher price than ever).

The point: compared to the above policies from Microsoft, Linux is pretty close to the same deadline.  I use Ubuntu for most of my stuff in Linux.  If you use a 32-bit system, security updates will still come down for Ubuntu LTS for 5 years, so 2021 will be when those stop too.  (One year later than Intel's decision to cull CSM/BIOS mode from new systems.) It's easier to accept a lifecycle policy from Linux with all installations being free (as F/LOSS insists, not "Free as in Beer" but "Free as in Speech": they want users to report bugs and give feedback, not just passively use it and ignore problems.)  But similar to Windows 10, the fix for a loss of support is to install the latest version.  And with the end of 32-bit, a distribution upgrade means replacing the computer, or accepting 16.04 without security updates.

I'm OK with the above, due to..

This isn't a business decision but rather a practical one.  Most people with computers these days use a 64-bit system, so there's not enough 32-bit users who are in the developer/quality assurance community to test a 32-bit distribution before release.

Time does march forward. We were doing 8-bit when I started. Fundamental changes, will, occur. Even though it is currently causing me some pain - I see doubling the data path as a very good one.

A positive spin on what you wrote, to an oldtimer like me, is:
64-bit is so stable and supported, now, that it has become the standard and there is no functional reason to not evolve. Which is a good thing  : )

I can remember selling Nintendo 64 ~ the time that Windows 3.11 was out. The rumor at the time was that Nintendo was losing money with every unit due to they were so advanced and selling for so cheap as compared to the technology that was in computers at the time. 64 bit is old.. I'm not surprised we're finally required to run it on PC. I'm more surprised we're not on 512 bit or more, or, using a whole other method of gathering/pushing data.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 12:01:50 AM by Xev »
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Tahquitz

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2018, 07:18:28 AM »
This confuses me.

Are you saying that after 18 months I can still download updates - I just have to do it manually?

Windows 10 is designed to automatically update.  It can be defeated, by merely going to Services and setting Windows Update to Manual startup.  But there's other reasons why Windows won't update on it's own.  (Users who never restart their computers and set their inactive hours during their active ones and telling Windows never to reboot when prompted, no/bad Internet connection available, no hard drive space to download updates in the first place...) 

And there's Major Updates that come down.  These are the ones shown in the update timeline: a Major Update replaces most or ALL of the Windows 10 files at once.  This is relatively new to Microsoft, but not entirely.  Think of each Major Update as a Service Pack and it won't seem so odd.  But like Service Packs, people defer these or cancel mid-download because they're huge (2-4GB each.)  When this happens, after 18 months, their current 'build' of Windows 10 will stop getting security updates until they let the download finish and allow it to process.  These Major Updates take just as long to install as installing Windows 10 fresh (15-90 minutes depending on your system) which is why most folks cancel them or stop them from downloading by shutting the system down.  When Windows 10 is ready to install it, that means a good chunk of downtime for your house or workplace.

So why bother at all?  Windows went with this approach to avoid the problem that Windows 7 and 8 suffered from: installing smaller updates that changed the build number of Windows meant tracking a larger and larger pool of updates that had to be done first.  And Windows 7 would just break Windows Update if the list got to be too big, or worse, another program would break it.  (Like viruses and malware.)  With this approach, every time you install a Major Update from Windows 10, once it's finished, you're caught up.  Only the updates made since that build would be needed, and none of the prior ones.  And in general, each major update is worth doing.  Every one brings in new features that add to Windows 10, making it better over time compared to it's initial release.

Quote
Are you saying that these problems that you told me about when this topic began and that I am just now beginning to understand, have already resolved themselves? : ) If I understand correctly, this is good news. I didn't like reading about dual boots going away with UEFI, which, I still don't understand correctly (what UEFI is), but, that I see it in my recent shopping, and, it looks like it will be in my future.

Nope.  An older problem which scared folks off of UEFI and "Secure Boot" in the first place is what I was referring to.  (Microsoft in an apparent 'coup' on all Windows 8 computer makers to make downgrading to Windows 7 and Linux too difficult to bother with.)  Linux can be installed on Secure Boot systems just as easily as in the past before it existed.  That's all.

32-bit is still being removed.  Intel needs to shuck the architecture to continue advancement with their new systems because of the end of the Tick/Tock development cycle, the end of transistor miniaturization in silicone.  (10nm is still elusive to them, so they're making chips get bigger vertically.)  Doing the same will only help AMD in the same pursuit.  But this would be a marginal boon to either.  The components for hardware 32-bit support are approximately 12% or less per chip of a CPU.  It'd be a short gain, followed by the same struggle the following year to keep optimizing on limited space.

Quote
I'm not content at all, with, my control slowly going away (Windows used to just boot and run like any other program - your PC was your PC to do whatever in the world you wanted if you had the tools.. Windows was just another app..) and being replaced with commercialism/advertising/stuff I have to turn off in Windows, or the tons of stolen licenses on the market (whose stolen license did you get? Maybe Mine.. I know that I can likely overcome this if it happens but I don't want to deal with the possibility of it if I can avoid it), and outrageous pricing/short product life (we went from not really having to have a license... to being able to buy one every decade or so... to having to buy one every 18 months - and, for a higher price than ever).

Again, you don't have to buy Windows 10 every 18 months.  If they did that, there would be a lot more outrage about Windows 10 than files being accidentally deleted from a bad update released last October.

But the change in Settings and Customization, that is absolutely true about Windows 10.  With every release, choices are being made for you instead of more control coming your way.  The operating system is becoming give/take with the mainstream.  The biggest fears have not been realized, though:

  • Windows 10 will be subscription based, and everyone will need to pay annually to use their computers.  This is not the case.  There is Microsoft 365, which will let businesses 'lease' Windows instead of buy it.  (Most Microsoft Volume Licensing operates under this model anyway, after the "Open License" offerings fell out of favor.)  But consumers get all the feature improvements to Windows 10 along with everyone else.  The talk that "Microsoft is considering a consumer version of Microsoft 365" has a huge obstacle: Office 365.  That service already gives consumers a lot, and Windows can't really 'add on' to that package.  If Microsoft were to offer a suite of apps and services apart from Windows 10, maybe, but first they'd need to get their own affairs in order concerning QA issues before they can expand like that. (Like not deleting files.)
  • Windows Store will be the only method to install software in the future.  In the distant future, maybe.  But doing so undercut's Windows strongest superpower over MacOS and Linux... hardware and application compatibility.

If you don't mind, let me expand on those two points with a topic I hate.  :o >:(

Walled Gardens and Users: A Journey to Disappointment
Essay by Tahquitz, Age 8.

While he works in IT, Tahquitz is best described as an amateur writer and this segment may contain some or all of the following: opinions not sponsored by Titan Network, logical fallacies, plot holes, spelling errors, and meandering based on a working stiff who reads Techmeme daily and tries to mentally pin tacks and strings to various headlines thinking it all "means something."  It probably doesn't.

So to explain why Microsoft would be stupid to carry out the "original plan" of Windows 10 (Make Windows subscription based, and only allow Windows Store apps, telling all other apps and developers to play ball or take a hike), there's some background to get out of the way.

Consider how Mac OS, Linux and Windows handle their respective ecosystems.

MacOS:
Obtaining new programs -- App Store and .dmg based installers.  Apple is moving to making .dmg harder to utilize with forcing users to only allow Store apps (this can be disabled with a radio button), but over time they made it clear that in the future the App Store will be the only method soon.

Advantages:  App Store handles the updates of all Mac apps in a single-pane-of-glass.  Apps are vetted by Apple to meet minimum standards (don't break Macs, don't bring in malware, and use MacOS features as prescribed.)

Disadvantages: Independent developers must pay Apple $99 to make apps for the App Store, and Apple gets a cut of all app sales.  Apple's standards also makes certain apps impossible (Steam was pulled from the iOS App Store for example as it let users buy games without involving Apple getting a cut, for example.  So Apple's business decisions may block an app from making it onto the platform at their whim.)  Apps that don't play ball need to provide an update mechanism outside of the App Store, or have to nag their users to install a new version the old-fashioned way.  Until they can't anymore.

Why it'll work: Apple has two reasons they can get away with this.  One: Apple computers (save for Hackintoshes) are mostly uniform.  There's maybe 10-15 models each of iMacs, MacBooks, Mac Pros, iPads, Apple Watches, and iPhones that are in active development at any given month.  All the others that are 'off the list' get no attention from Apple whatsoever.  When a device goes out of support, Apple cuts it off like a knife, and app developers usually fall in line, with maybe 1 or 2 years of app updates before they stop supporting them too.  And Apple's operating system for their computers and devices is free.  They don't charge users for the operating system, and it can't be bought to put onto a system that isn't an Apple.

I attended a conference where an Apple staffer was asked about their move to a closed App Store (the staffer corrected the interviewer, "Secure App Store") what amateur programmers would do if they can't afford to participate.  Their answer was in two parts: just because you can't install an app doesn't mean you can't test it in a runtime environment (which is true), and "I don't think anyone in this room can't afford $99."  Still missing the point: the $99 is an arbitrary cost, which can change in the future.  If you want to make money as a programmer, fine.  Apple deserves a cut for operating the store for you.  But if you don't intend to sell any apps and offer your work for free, it's punishing the programmer for not doing so... especially if there's no way other than the App Store in the future.  They do offer a fee waiver for non-profits, but offering a free tier (even with limits: no more than 5 apps, etc.) would go quite a way towards alleviating that fear.

Linux:
Obtaining new programs -- package management systems.  Depending on your build, Linux uses a package manager to handle updates to both the operating system AND third party apps.  For Debian (including Ubuntu), there's Aptitude.  For Fedora, you have Yellowdog Updater Modified.  ArchLinux has PACMAN.  (Really!)  All of these package managers do the same thing.  They check a list of places that hold programs on the Internet called repositories, ask them for the latest versions of the apps, a list of dependencies, and assembles a list of packages for you to download to update your system.  You review the list, answer Yes, and the package manager goes to work, updating away.

If you learn no other terminal commands for Debian or Ubuntu, know these two:
Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get upgrade

Two lines to get updates and deploy them for every program on your computer.  apt-get upgrade prompts if you want to continue, but that's it.

Advantages: This is what MacOS models their updates on.  Linux did this right for years.  When you run a package manager, EVERYTHING gets updated.  Not just the apps you have, but system components and your operating system.  The package manager gets kernel updates, drivers, firmware updates, security fixes, new software libraries and dependencies your programs need.  It's really a one-stop shop to get it all done at once, and neither Windows or MacOS can compete with it in the same way.  No third party installers needed.  (sudo apt-get install firefox)  And there's no uninstallers that nag you for "Why are you uninstalling?", the same command to update is the same one to get rid of an app. (sudo apt-get remove chromium)

Disadvantages: The repositories are a little confusing to use.  There's the OS Repos that come with your system, but others in Ubuntu include Universe and Multiverse.  There's the Partner Repository.  And Contrib and Non-Free ones.  Knowing which apps come from where is a bit of a pain, and merely enabling all of the repos makes your updates slow down, or bring in lower-quality apps (of which Linux does have a lot of... homebrew apps means no guarantees.)  And the user-facing package managers really control low-level package maintainers (Aptitude is a front end for dpkg in Debian/Ubuntu, YUM is a front end for RPM, which has been around for decades.)  When the packages don't work, you have a difficult road in fixing the issue, or simply removing the misinstalled packages to get back to where you were before you started.  (In Ubuntu, when apt-get reports that you need to run dpkg to fix an issue, and you're not well versed in Linux, usually it means you're close to having to reinstall the Operating System.)

Why it works: Linux software has a strong reputation to prevent malware because of the layers of prompts needed to do something bad.  It's not as easy as installing a program and answering yes, as it is in Windows or MacOS.  And the package manager route isn't the only way to make an app.  Because Linux is open-source, you have options if you don't like what's given.  1) you can install a package archive, such as a .deb or .rpm file directly.  2.)  Most Linux distros have a 'middle ground' repository system like Ubuntu's PPA system.  Using a PPA, you can subscribe to an amateur or enthusiast maintained repository that works with the package manager.  Once a PPA is added, you can update, install and remove that PPA's apps just like any other.  3.) Using the source code, you can install build-dependencies, and compile and install the app yourself.  (Very difficult.)

So even with streamlined package management, you still have options to bring in homebrew software, or go it alone and install or compile an app yourself.  But these options come with varying difficulty of use.

Windows 10:
Obtaining new programs -- both and neither.  Like MacOS, the Windows Store is the intended vehicle for 'safe' Microsoft apps, and for updating programs in a single-pane-of-glass style update manager.  But you can also use Windows App Installers (MSI packages, or in Executable self-contained apps that install, run and uninstall as a separate program) to manage programs yourself.  The Store can be forced "ON" from the Settings app, rejecting any installer that doesn't go through the store, or you can disable that (which is the default.)

Advantages: Best of both worlds.  You have the walled garden if you don't like updating programs like in Windows 7 and 8.  (Love those little nag messages that there's a new version of Adobe or Oracle something or other?  Neither did I.)  So for your loved one who doesn't dabble in gaming or installing programs, turn "S Mode" on, and enjoy some simplicity.  In the walled garden, you get told once that updates are needed.  No helper apps are needed in the system tray.  If you don't like the walled garden or want to use apps that take full advantage of Windows past the Universal Windows App framework, you can.

Disadvantages: Windows is used as the whipping child for why other operating systems do things the way they do it.  And most of the bad rap comes from Windows past.  Before Windows 2000 took years of bad security practices out of action by using NTFS and password security.  Before XP put in Service Pack 3.  Before Windows 7 allowed users to tune UAC prompts. MacOS touts their path to only a single walled garden as the largest reason why Macs are more secure and safer from viruses, when in truth, virus and malware makers target the largest group possible.  (This is why exploits are increasing on Mobile Devices.  Everyone has a smartphone, right?)  Linux's largest strength is there's no nags to update a system other than the one window that collects info about all the apps and presents a single unified list.  Windows has one list for Windows Updates, and one for Microsoft Store apps.  All the others, you're on your own to update.  Because Windows software ecosystem is more centered on self-contained apps than a central delivery system, viruses and malware is more likely on Windows than other operating systems (If a user can be duped into installing it, you win.)

And getting to the point... Why Windows would be stupid to go Apple's way and less towards Linux or keeping their status quo: Windows isn't free.  Microsoft Windows is the only operating system you have to purchase to use on a new computer.  (Most don't notice because it's included in the price of a new system.)  Also, Windows has a far LARGER hardware base than Apple does.  A wide array of hardware has to work under Windows, where Apple can hand pick their components, so every model number of an Apple system has the same parts, with few customizations (RAM, Hard Drive, Maybe your Processor, and Screen Size and that's really it.  Everything else is on-board.  And with recent 'software locks' short of visiting an Apple store, you can't change the parts once you buy it.)  Forcing Windows users to just use the Store and shut out all the Windows Applications that aren't 'compliant' means shutting out years of hardware, software, and components that are used around the world. 

And what is Windows 10's biggest strength?  (Yes, I'm about to complement something from Microsoft, try not to faint.) It runs on damn near any system.  (I have yet to find a used PC at work I can't throw Windows 10 on that ran Windows 7.)

And it also runs damn near any program written for it.  Consider that Windows 10 can run any and all of the following:
-- Universal Windows Apps from their Store.  Windows 8 and 10.
-- Windows x64 apps (a growing list.  Works since Windows Vista.)
-- Win32 apps (the majority of apps written for it. Goes back to Windows 95/98.)

Recently, Windows 10 quietly dropped the following:
-- Windows 16-bit apps.  (Have a program from Windows 3.1?)

But even with that... if you reenable NTVDM on Windows Pro, those apps work again.  MacOS won't run apps that use 32-bit anything, let alone any app older than OS X ver. "when they ditched Carbon", let alone anything from Old World Macs (System 6-9).  Linux requires apps to be compatible with it's current dependencies, so running older apps becomes an undertaking to bring all the dependencies in alignment with it first.  Come across a library that won't work with the current kernel, and it's a show stopper.

Bringing a walled garden to Windows means shucking compatibility with far more programs than either MacOS or Linux would lose if they did the same.  Adobe CC would be gone.  Microsoft Office would be dead in the water, leaving folks with apps that resemble the Store version of OneNote (which I'm not digging... I still use and like OneNote 2016 over the Store version after Office 2019 ditched it.)  And most games would be gone.

Going to a walled garden now means goodbye Steam, Origin, and other distribution networks.  (Gabe Newell initially balked at the inclusion of a Microsoft Store in Windows 8, which prompted him to make SteamOS.)  A walled garden means no more MMO updaters and patchers,  And a walled garden means that it's harder for homebrew development, since Microsoft has similar fees for posting and selling apps on their store.  Walled Gardens means that programs that run afoul of Microsoft's policies and business practices cannot be.  (Paragon Chat would likely disappear under such a policy.)

Has Microsoft tried to do this?  Yes.  Twice.

Windows RT was the real reason Gabe blew up.  RT was a version of Windows 8 made for the Surface tablet and other small Windows computers.  But the Store delivery mechanism was more of a need on RT than anywhere else.  Windows RT was based on ARM processors, which means that Intel/AMD compiled apps (the majority of Windows programs) won't run on it.  Without the Store, RT can't install Windows Programs at all.  And that fact made the original Surface tablet fail out of the gate.

Windows 10 S was the second attempt.  It was a pre-loaded operating system that Microsoft put onto Home and Business computers to force users to only install apps from the store.  While this was installed on regular computers (totally compatible with Intel and AMD), it still tanked.  Why get a hobbled copy of Windows that can't install programs past the "Modern UI" apps, when you can install Windows 10 Pro on top of it and do what you please?  Likewise, the sales of Windows 10 S was abysmal, and Microsoft's own analytics shown that a large amount of users replaced Windows 10 S and didn't use their Store at all.  Now an Update made Windows 10 S a "Mode" that a user can elect or shut off at will, eliminating the need to replace Windows 10 S with another edition. 

Have they tried mitigating the Store's avoidance with past Windows apps?  Yes.  For example, the iTunes in the Microsoft Store last spring was a big deal: Microsoft was reportedly using the iTunes entry in the store as a 'shim' to get the iTunes app coded as-is into the Windows Store and have the Store update it.  Unlike the other Microsoft Store entries, it's not a UWA app or a Progressive Web App (read: website application that works anywhere and really doesn't need an installation.)  And it seems to be working.  Moreso, Apple's Software Updater isn't a part of it with this method.  The Store updates iTunes without it. No more QuickTime installer prompts.  If this continues, Microsoft may take out the dreaded "Storepocalypse" by merely allowing the disallowed apps anyway.  It doesn't clear off the ethical downsides of the walled garden, but it might be recognition by them that UWA isn't going to work out how they think it is.

So, twice, Microsoft was told by the market that closing off the ecosystem is a bad move.  Microsoft wants to direct the user experience moreso than in the past, but the road to make Microsoft follow the same route as Apple wants to go means taking out what makes Windows different than Apple in the first place.  Apple can make that sacrifice because it's love it or leave it with them.  Windows taking that approach would change it too much for it to be distinctive from their competition in the first place.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 09:35:19 AM by Tahquitz »
"Work is love made visible." -- Khalil Gibran

Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2018, 06:51:15 PM »
First of all - wow, TQ, Nice Book : D


Windows 10 is designed to automatically update.  It can be defeated, by merely going to Services and setting Windows Update to Manual startup.  But there's other reasons why Windows won't update on it's own.  (Users who never restart their computers and set their inactive hours during their active ones and telling Windows never to reboot when prompted, no/bad Internet connection available, no hard drive space to download updates in the first place...) 

And there's Major Updates that come down.  These are the ones shown in the update timeline: a Major Update replaces most or ALL of the Windows 10 files at once.  This is relatively new to Microsoft, but not entirely.  Think of each Major Update as a Service Pack and it won't seem so odd.  But like Service Packs, people defer these or cancel mid-download because they're huge (2-4GB each.)  When this happens, after 18 months, their current 'build' of Windows 10 will stop getting security updates until they let the download finish and allow it to process.  These Major Updates take just as long to install as installing Windows 10 fresh (15-90 minutes depending on your system) which is why most folks cancel them or stop them from downloading by shutting the system down.  When Windows 10 is ready to install it, that means a good chunk of downtime for your house or workplace.


When I first read this ... I had a very negative reaction..

Then I re-read it and found this:

Think of each Major Update as a Service Pack and it won't seem so odd.

And was calmed, some.

I mean, you do not want to read:

And there's Major Updates that come down.

...

...they're huge (2-4GB each.)

If you're paying for your internet by the megabyte.. I was like .. *jawdrop*

Now I must ask.... how often does Microsoft 10 get 'service packs'....? Up to now we get, 2, in the entire lifetime of the OS.

As for the rest...

What a great read! I know more about Apple than I cared to, which is good, I should know more. I just never had the interest..

I'm glad you've used Linux, too.

A major kink in my plan to go to Linux, is.. I still want to use Windows apps.. To do so, Linux has to do a lot of translating.. I'm betting the reason why Linux is on 99% of the world's supercomputers isn't due to its translation ability.. I.E. I'm trying to use a knife as a screwdriver - it'll work, but, is it really what I want to do. Only if I have no screwdriver?

After this whole experience I do have to at least Try Linux and I am glad it exists. It should only improve with age, too, I hope.

Having the widest amount of apps and being the easiest way to get on the Internet were what stole the market for Microsoft. If Microsoft just continues to do what got it where it is today: Allow us to run everything we want and not make us poor doing so, people will keep buying it decade after decade.. It's way easier to not change, than to change.

I'm still confused on Windows Updates and when I can no long download them..

Windows 10 is designed to automatically update.  It can be defeated, by merely going to Services and setting Windows Update to Manual startup.

Are you saying I can do this as long as Windows 10 exists? Then why does the End of Life, link, above, even exist? What's its purpose?

Yeah, the lifecycle is concerning people who don't update their computers.  You don't need to buy any of those versions of Windows 10 once you get a license for it, they're all free of charge.  But you do need to update the operating system every 18 months in order to keep getting security updates.


So basically, what the deal is.. In the link...... is they are stating what builds need updating, when?

Quote
Windows 10 version history

Date of availability~ End of service for Home, Pro, and Pro for Workstation editions~ End of service for Enterprise and Education editions


Windows 10, version 1809 November 13, 2018 May 12, 2020 May 11, 2021
Windows 10, version 1803 April 30, 2018 November 12, 2019 November 10, 2020
Windows 10, version 1709 October 17, 2017 April 9, 2019 April 14, 2020
Windows 10, version 1703 April 5, 2017 October 9, 2018 October 8, 2019
Windows 10, version 1607 August 2, 2016 April 10, 2018 April 9, 2019
Windows 10, version 1511 November 10, 2015 October 10, 2017 October 10, 2017
Windows 10, released July 2015 (version 1507) July 29, 2015 May 9, 2017  May 9, 2017

So.. the Windows 'versions' are the Major Updates, below, that you speak of..

And there's Major Updates that come down.  These are the ones shown in the update timeline: a Major Update replaces most or ALL of the Windows 10 files at once.

(Edited due to confusion of the ending dates) And, so, I should read the MS link, as... the first version of Windows 10 came out in July of 2015 and the first 'Service pack' came out Nov, 2015? The current version came out November, 2018 and is scheduled to no longer get updates in May, '20, and, there is no 'Service Pack' date projected for the latest Windows build/version - but yet the end of service date (if you don't download the latest build/version) *has* been projected?

This also means that 'Service Packs' are now actually scheduled years ahead, and, that schedule, is....every 18 months? And, we have no date for the next one, yet?

So in conclusion: I can 'Service Pack' and further Update my Windows 10 with a single Windows 10 purchase... as long as Windows 10 updates exist/are still being made...? The above Microsoft link is just a record of the timeline? And 'service packs', that are required to install to get regular Updates, are actually scheduled? And that schedule is every 18 months?

Thanks TQ! I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience. I have exactly 1 techie friend and acquaintance, here, and he's a programming teacher who uses a 12 year old Apple with no plans to upgrade and has no use whatsoever for gaming.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 07:27:23 PM by Xev »
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Tahquitz

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2018, 07:21:07 PM »
If you're paying for your internet by the megabyte.. I was like .. *jawdrop*

That is the best reason to say No to Windows 10.  People on Metered Bandwidth can't use it readily if it's the only connection you got.

If you have Internet where you work, and they're permissive enough to let you do it, you can use a USB to make a Windows 10 Install drive, and run that on your system to do the Major Updates without using up your bandwidth.  Click "Download Tool Now" instead of "Get Started".  The program will download Windows 10, write it to the USB, and remove it from the hard drive afterwards.  With Windows 10 running on a computer, plug it in, run Setup.exe, and follow the prompts.  The default should say "Keep all the files", click Install and watch it go.

I've done major updates in my house that way for the last two years because our Internet sucks (5MB down/1MB up on a good day.  Most days it's below 1MB.)  With the USB Method, download once, update 5-6 computers one at a time, no Internet needed.
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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2018, 07:42:04 PM »
How often do you have to do this? Every 18 months?
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Tahquitz

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2018, 08:13:19 PM »
A new build comes out every April and October.  You can probably skip every other one and be okay.
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Xev

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2019, 08:04:30 PM »
A new build comes out every April and October.  You can probably skip every other one and be okay.

I'm just trying to understand it all..

Sooo..

The current standard, is, that a new build comes out twice a year on April and October.. (this was news).

And, if I don't want my Windows Update service interrupted - I have only to update to a new Windows build as per the prescribed dates on the MS link I quoted above - otherwise (according to the latest way of doing things), if I let my Windows build version get older than 18 months, I can still use my Windows, I just can't update it - until - I update my Windows build to a new enough version.

And, I can update my Windows 10 build versions and continue to get Windows 10 Updates as long as Windows 10 exists.

?
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Tahquitz

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Re: What would you build?
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2019, 10:49:28 PM »
I'm just trying to understand it all..

Sooo..

The current standard, is, that a new build comes out twice a year on April and October.. (this was news).

And, if I don't want my Windows Update service interrupted - I have only to update to a new Windows build as per the prescribed dates on the MS link I quoted above - otherwise (according to the latest way of doing things), if I let my Windows build version get older than 18 months, I can still use my Windows, I just can't update it - until - I update my Windows build to a new enough version.

And, I can update my Windows 10 build versions and continue to get Windows 10 Updates as long as Windows 10 exists.

?

I think you got it.  Updates are not tied to activation; blowing them off doesn't invalidate your Windows or make you pay to buy Windows again.

I won't say Windows 10 is the last version of Windows.  (Microsoft certainly is, but they said the same about Windows XP and that gave em a black eye concerning security.  Someday, Microsoft may eat their words a second time and release a new one to make shareholders happy.  We may be 5 years from Windows 10 R2 or Windows 10.2.)
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