Author Topic: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release  (Read 56732 times)

Thunder Glove

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2019, 08:55:41 AM »
Just going to quote some of my old posts, because they're relevant now:

There was some talk about a server simulator a few years ago (i.e., not the original CoH code, but something which the client would recognize as CoH code), but I don't know if anything ever developed on that front.
I don't mean Segs, I mean another one.  The SCoRE project.

And to go back even further

Quote from: Thunder Glove link=topic=6654.msg135393#msg135393
In the meantime, keep holding a torch for for CoT, VO, SCoRE, and even HaV.

I'm just thrilled that news of SCoRE has finally surfaced again.  I can't be too mad that the Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers was, you know, secret.  A little sad, maybe (even after all these years, I have SO MANY character ideas in addition to all the old characters I'd love to play again) but knowing that there are at least two emulators (or simulators?) out there being worked on instead of one doubles my hope for playing it again someday.

Twi

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2019, 09:10:23 AM »
I had heard of SCORE closer to the shutdown date, but, it's been so long, I completely forgot about it.

Really, I'm not even upset that they're choosing to have a private, invite-only server. You're paying for it, do with it what you will. But withholding the ability for anyone else with the resources to do similar, that's got me irritated.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 09:20:52 AM by Twi »
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summers

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2019, 09:23:21 AM »
I've pined for City of Heroes for years, so to hear there might be a private server brings on so many mixed feelings. I think a lot will feel hurt - that they have wanted something so much and it was kept concealed from them. I also feel hope - that it might be available to us, but also quite deflated - that there's only rumours and we are no closer to anything.

I just wish I could play the game again.

Phocks

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2019, 10:13:59 AM »
Man, this is real depressing. I've seen a lot of real terrible attacks on the people involved, and a lot of defending what I can't really wrap my head around as good decision making.


I think my biggest hang-up remains just how antithetical to the community's spirit this feels. I've seen a lot of posts claiming that an attitude like that is "jealous" or "entitled" or something, but it just feels like a colossal let-down to know something like this has just been bubbling in the background and being sat on for... what? 5 years, give or take? Honestly, I want to believe it was something that was entirely necessary, but when there's content being patched in and the game being furthered, all for an audience that's basically just a clique with a real cool clubhouse? That sucks. A whole lot. I don't really understand the claims of public events (that are now nixed?) since it seems like it's never really gonna be entirely safe to have the server be open.


The fact that the code could've been given out anonymously rather than hoarded really feels like the icing, here. If you wanna have your exclusive clubhouse and updates, terrific. But why not let others take their own crack at it?


It's been long enough where I can't really feel angry about the whole situation, it's just all immensely disappointing how it's been handled here. As much as I'd love to be able to play the game again, seeing it in hands making these calls just sours the prospect a whole lot.

Auroxis

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2019, 12:39:31 PM »
Just watching videos from the private server has me hyped. Please, whoever is in charge, do the right thing for the community.

MyriVerse

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2019, 01:05:27 PM »
Frankly, I don't get all the butthurt. The best thing to do with things like this is to keep them as secret as possible. I actually hope the people running this server can maintain their secrecy after this.
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TonyV

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2019, 02:56:32 PM »
The thing that confuses me is why the server or source, whatever...  was given to anyone but the titan network.

Believe me, that question has crossed my mind more than once, especially since I know several of the devs and have a good rapport with the ones I know.

I'm not going to speculate on who released what to Leo. I honestly have no idea, and in fact, as I type this, I'm not 100% sure that anyone did. (Has that actually been definitively established?) No one has confessed to me, and really, it's probably something I'd rather not know because I'd be lying if I said that I'm totally on board with swiping code from one's employer, even in the cause of some more noble principle. (Though to be clear, I'm not saying I'm against it. Frankly, I'm torn on the issue.) Maybe that's why; whoever did it knows that Leo had more time, effort, and ability to see this to fruition than I did, with fewer qualms about setting it through to its logical end.

It really, really doesn't matter to me. I'm just glad something was released to somebody. It means it's out there, it wasn't totally destroyed, so our chances of having something tangible at some point are dramatically higher than they were before.

therain93

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2019, 03:03:05 PM »
The post they made doesn't sound like we'll ever get it, if anything it sounds like "we're sorry we got caught, but not sorry for lying, and since we got caught NO ONE ELSE WILL EVER be able to play it"

Parading around like they were going to let the community in ever, I don't believe them, if they've been lying this long, I cannot trust them.

They're wolves in sheep clothing, sitting here "mourning the game" like the rest of us, while instead they've been playing it for years.

The only right thing for them to do is leak the source files, keep their server private, we don't want to be part of score, we want the files out.


Self-Interest does not equal right.

The code is still NCsoft's.  It was not reverse engineered. It is not a generic server code filled with fanfiction, but a duplicate of the intellectual property of NCsoft.  It should not be shared with the spiritual successors, that's NCsoft's choice and would likely guarantee the demise of those efforts if they built on it.   Likewise releasing it creates a situation where any number of parties would benefit unfairly from Ncsoft's investment.

I'm not an ncsoft defender or an apologist, that's just cold, hard truth.   And, Yes,  those are unpopular statements.  The next few are too.

The level of entitlement that appears to be ignored by or blinding the people demanding the release of the code is staggering. Many people may feel hurt,  but no one in this community has been wronged because the secret server existed (only ncsoft).  The public does not get to have the code just because it was stolen by someone lacking good moral judgement.  People made mistakes and bad decisions,  but that doesn't entitle the remainder of the community to a hand out of the code.   It's not ethical and it's just not ours.
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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2019, 03:06:36 PM »
I have a number of thoughts, and my emotions have been a bit jumbled through all of this. I'm trying to keep it as much within the guidelines that Tahquitz posted earlier, so hopefully this comes across in the manner I want.
  • I do believe that Titan Network was insulated from the private server, and I do believe in Titan Network's leaders' efforts to maintain the best CoH community. Immediately removing "private server" threads makes sense, because, yeah, lots of places' discussions have degenerated.
  • A lot of rampant discussion would be ended if the people behind the server would be very explicit in what sort of playable state it's in, and what their plans for releasing it to the public are. I remember the first mentions of SCoRE on this server, and yeah, the understanding was that it would hunker down, reverse engineer in secret, and **when they had a playable game, release it to the public.** Do they have a playable game? Based on videos that SCoRE has not refuted, they do. And that's why I was initially so hurt by the revelation of a private server: SCoRE was supposed to release a game to the public, not keep it to themselves. It shouldn't be hard to understand the feelings of betrayal there. But if SCoRE just explicitly said *why* they haven't released yet, and *when* they will, I think it would help me understand.
  • There's a lot of specific calling-out that leakers are doing, which would make someone question their motives... except that the private server turned out to be true. I think there's definitely some people with an agenda, but given the fact that the only official SCoRE statement has been less than transparent, that agenda gets fuel added to its fire.
  • After my initial feeling of hurt, I thought that maybe it was actually a good thing, how the server was kept private, if it really did use stolen code. SCoRE would get experience running a "real" CoH server, and then they could use that experience to help out SEGS, and other emulators or other projects. But then I realized that if the code really is stolen, it means that everything a member of SCoRE touches is tainted, and at risk of legal action. And that really makes me mad, because SCoRE has been involved, heavily or tangentially, in a lot of the previously public efforts to recreate the game, all of which may now be at risk.
  • My above point only stands if the code really is stolen, which still hasn't been confirmed or denied. There's way too much speculation on that point. If it was, that's a big set of issues; if it wasn't, my second point about feeling betrayed by SCoRE not releasing a working reverse engineered game is where I'll end up.
  • I logged in to Paragon Chat last night for the first time in ages, and got invited to a team for someone to show me their base. It was a heck of a lot of fun, and the base was ridiculously impressive. So yeah, I feel betrayed by SCoRE keeping their functional server to themselves, but I still enjoy the parts of CoH that we do have. And if it really does use stolen code, then SEGS is the only viable way forward (assuming it continues to not use help from SCoRE members).
  • And assuming SCoRE really does have actual CoH code... the open letter about game preservation says it all: https://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/bdqf1w/open_letter_to_the_score_team_re_game_preservation/

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2019, 03:10:36 PM »
To be honest it feels like the game closure over again but I have nothing to say against the people who kept it secret except that it feels naive since, sooner or later the info was going to be leaked, either on purpose or by accident.
 
Some people said that the problem is that the people not invited are just jealous, I can't speak for other but in my case, yes, I am jealous and hurt and sad but I am also perfectly aware that, had I been playing in the infamous server, now I'd be mad at the leaker for causing a the server to (temporally) close and putting in at risk of a C&D from NCSoft. To each their own, I would be eternally grateful if invited but there's nothing I can do for things beyond my control.

Maybe (or even probably), had the code been passed on to other people, there would be a ton of shitty servers (whoever tried certain WoW private servers knows exactly what am I talking about) and we would be complaining anyway for not finding a decent server to play, who knows.

etnies445

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2019, 03:55:50 PM »

Self-Interest does not equal right.

The code is still NCsoft's.  It was not reverse engineered. It is not a generic server code filled with fanfiction, but a duplicate of the intellectual property of NCsoft.  It should not be shared with the spiritual successors, that's NCsoft's choice and would likely guarantee the demise of those efforts if they built on it.   Likewise releasing it creates a situation where any number of parties would benefit unfairly from Ncsoft's investment.

I'm not an ncsoft defender or an apologist, that's just cold, hard truth.   And, Yes,  those are unpopular statements.  The next few are too.

The level of entitlement that appears to be ignored by or blinding the people demanding the release of the code is staggering. Many people may feel hurt,  but no one in this community has been wronged because the secret server existed (only ncsoft).  The public does not get to have the code just because it was stolen by someone lacking good moral judgement.  People made mistakes and bad decisions,  but that doesn't entitle the remainder of the community to a hand out of the code.   It's not ethical and it's just not ours.

Was it NCsofts choice to run a private server for 6 years? Didn't SCoRE benefit unfairly from Ncsoft's investments?

These are all things score and those playing it are guilty of, but releasing it to other people - that somehow is bad for NCSoft, but having a p server up for how many years was...good?

I'm sorry, you aren't making much sense, very contradictory, releasing it does nothing they already haven't done in regards to NCsoft, so it's really difficult for score to play the "We're not releasing it because NCsoft wouldn't want it released!" card, without just seeming like hypocrites.


And to your point, self interest doesn't equal right, they've been running a p server for self interest for years, so no it doesn't. They are completely guilty in the eyes of NCSoft and the community, and there is only one side they can try to earn good faith with at this point, and it ain't NCsoft.


Edit: I will add, for the most part I personally had moved on, but learning about this p server has just reopened so many wounds. Until today I barely thought about CoH, and honestly I'm not sure I even would want the game back - even with their "updates" to it. The game is now 6+ years past the last update, the graphics honestly were fine for its time but are really lacking now, and I don't think even if I had the chance id play CoH on a small server without the community. The game is dead for me, NCSoft won't re-release it, I personally gave up, I moved on.

Seeing videos of people playing makes me realize a coh server with no updates would only keep me interested for so long, hell even when CoH was live I often quit inbetween issues and took time off the game, I couldn't imagine how quick id lose interest in a 15 year old game that hasn't seen a real update for 6 years.

CoH will always have a nice spot in my memories as my first MMO of many i'd play, but I honestly just wish this secret was never exposed. As they say, ignorance is bliss.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 04:03:27 PM by etnies445 »

SilverAgeFan

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2019, 04:21:09 PM »
To be honest it feels like the game closure over again

This.

The news of this server and the idea that my entire character roster could someday be revived definitely made it surprisingly difficult to sleep. I'm a 45 y.o. with plenty of adult responsibilities that I meet quite well. This has all just driven home how much I miss the game, my characters and the time invested in them (developing both their video game aspects AND their roleplaying traits) through repeated, longstanding relatively slow play.

I do miss the community I knew, but I presume that disrupted for good. Were the game revived as a giant consolidated server (with the fabled 1000 character slots per account), I definitely would be fine making new friends in what felt like an old space with all my old second-selves.

This said, though I'm sad and surprised at the level of grief and resentment I still harbor regarding the initial shutdown, I don't begrudge the secrecy around the server. I don't see it as a spiteful sort of elitism. In their shoes, with the hot elements in their hands, I can't say I wouldn't have found my own means of keeping it under protective wraps that would have been less accessible to people who played the live game differently from me.

The sense I get is it was the reddit crew, comprised of people who made talking about the game post-closure, pretty central to their leisure time that made it into the server. I also have a notion that old-time CoH forum celebrities and VERY active and visible players were likely sponsored and vetted. From the video leaker's version of the story, I also assume that by virtue (haha!) of the networks drawn close, many freedom-ites, who played harder into the video game side of the CoH were getting sponsored and vetted, even if they didn't have interest (remember the leaker claimed only 3 of his 8 nominees even ever logged in to play!!!).

Meanwhile, because of the population I gamed with, slightly older and one that mostly stayed away from the forums because of the drama that came with that venue, one that was not part of a hardcore out of game RP community, who RP'd regularly, casually but continuously in game—who didn't post on post closure forums much or log in to paragon chat for anniversary events, not because we stopped caring, but because it was honestly too much of a painful reminder—people like us who were relatively silent but invisible in all these arenas were going to be left out of this sort of secret society style invite only inclusion.

And I think that's the bummer here. It's not that people like myself didn't love the game any more or less than those included in the private server and further development of the game, but that traits of our out-of-game lives (needing to keep our gaming life separate for whatever reason from our public identities) or personality traits (being intimidated or not having patience for online forum dramas) meant that we just wouldn't get a chance to play the game again.

Had I the chance, I gladly would have paid monthly. I did up until closure. I believed in the game and I had funds. I'm older and even more stable financially. Given a working game setup, I would have gladly donated to a crowd funding server upgrade that I've seen elsewhere. I would have been another body in game who knew the game, was capable in end game content, open and willing to work with others, often in a goofy mood, RPing on PUGs. In short, I would have been an asset to that environment.

But I, and so many others who miss the game dearly and who were similarly left out, simply will be passed over via this means of sourcing dedicated community members. We simply aren't the loud ones.

And one last thing I thought about during my somewhat sleepless night: I've seen many people expressing how poorly this reflects on the community, that it's rotted and fractured—it always was fractured due to how differently sub-groups were able to approach CoH. But I don't think it's rotted. It has strayed. But it has strayed particularly because the game itself was for so many of us (especially for people like me!) the primary social platform that we used to keep in touch about the game. The game space made the community and gave many us means to maintain that community. (This is not to undercut any of the excellent long term out of game community building by dedicated persons, such as those at Titan Network, CoH faces, etc.)

Alright. That's my brain dump. Probably going to slip back into lurker mode as I put a pin in this one.

therain93

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2019, 04:23:16 PM »
Was it NCsofts choice to run a private server for 6 years? Didn't SCoRE benefit unfairly from Ncsoft's investments?

These are all things score and those playing it are guilty of, but releasing it to other people - that somehow is bad for NCSoft, but having a p server up for how many years was...good?

I'm sorry, you aren't making much sense, very contradictory, releasing it does nothing they already haven't done in regards to NCsoft, so it's really difficult for score to play the "We're not releasing it because NCsoft wouldn't want it released!" card, without just seeming like hypocrites.


And to your point, self interest doesn't equal right, they've been running a p server for self interest for years, so no it doesn't. They are completely guilty in the eyes of NCSoft and the community, and there is only one side they can try to earn good faith with at this point, and it ain't NCsoft.


Edit: I will add, for the most part I personally had moved on, but learning about this p server has just reopened so many wounds. Until today I barely thought about CoH, and honestly I'm not sure I even would want the game back - even with their "updates" to it. The game is now 6+ years past the last update, the graphics honestly were fine for its time but are really lacking now, and I don't think even if I had the chance id play CoH on a small server without the community. The game is dead for me, NCSoft won't re-release it, I personally gave up, I moved on.

Seeing videos of people playing makes me realize a coh server with no updates would only keep me interested for so long, hell even when CoH was live I often quit inbetween issues and took time off the game, I couldn't imagine how quick id lose interest in a 15 year old game that hasn't seen a real update for 6 years.

CoH will always have a nice spot in my memories as my first MMO of many i'd play, but I honestly just wish this secret was never exposed. As they say, ignorance is bliss.


It's not contradictory,  because I didn't address SCoRE's benefit or guilt,  because that is implied in statements about it being NCsofts property,  benefiting at ncsofts expense and labeling it as stolen..... all are not good.   But what was done is the past.


The point is what will happen going forward,  and although you conveniently skipped the second half of my post,  you so eloquently demonstrated that mentality of entitlement when you wrote that "they are completely guilty in the eyes of the community" and the only way to earn "good faith" back is to release the code.   


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Radionuclide

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2019, 04:27:30 PM »
  • My above point only stands if the code really is stolen, which still hasn't been confirmed or denied. There's way too much speculation on that point. If it was, that's a big set of issues; if it wasn't, my second point about feeling betrayed by SCoRE not releasing a working reverse engineered game is where I'll end up.

There is no way it is not stolen. It would be impossible for them to provide players with their old characters without that being the case.
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Vee

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2019, 04:50:25 PM »
I'm going to take it on faith that among the private server members there is a strong pantsless contingent. Assured of that, I have no complaints.

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2019, 05:14:10 PM »
The good news is that NCSOFT now has something to sell or run themselves if they can reclaim their property.

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2019, 05:17:50 PM »
It feels really dishonest. Everything just feels dishonest. I get why it should have been kept under wraps, i truly do...but these people have a functioning version of the game now and the choice is actively being made to hide it. Thats the worst part, there is 0 supporting evidence that it was ever going to be public and now that everyone knows and the secrets out, we just have to sit here from here on out knowing that City of Heroes was saved but for some reason, only for a handful of people and their friends.

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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2019, 05:22:45 PM »
A lot of posters are missing the lead here. The release 24 server exists and is functional.  SCORE has a working version to use!

Until this news there was serious question as to whether the code needed to run COH even still existed or could be made functional.

SCORE stands for "The Secret Cabal of REVERSE ENGINEERS.  And at least one of their hypothesized projects is a reverse-engineered COH 24 server that can be run on a single machine released into the wild for anybody to run.  If you're focusing on the fact that they have a server running (like that idiot behind the "all of us or none of us" crap a few years back) you're missing the fact that this is the best news about getting the game back in the last 5 years.
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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2019, 05:27:13 PM »
I'm a 45 y.o.

49 here

I definitely would be fine making new friends in what felt like an old space with all my old second-selves.

Same here

not part of a hardcore out of game RP community, who RP'd regularly, casually but continuously in game—who didn't post on post closure forums much or log in to paragon chat for anniversary events, not because we stopped caring, but because it was honestly too much of a painful reminder

This

Had I the chance, I gladly would have paid monthly. I did up until closure. I believed in the game and I had funds. I'm older and even more stable financially. Given a working game setup, I would have gladly donated to a crowd funding server upgrade that I've seen elsewhere. I would have been another body in game who knew the game, was capable in end game content, open and willing to work with others, often in a goofy mood, RPing on PUGs. In short, I would have been an asset to that environment.

Same here.

I was playing in EU servers with two accounts and eventually moved to US servers with another two accounts and, at a certain stage, when they opened EU-US transfers I found myself with 4 accounts. In any case, I made friends both sides of the pond and, although I was somewhat active on forums, I just tried to be discreet in game and have fun but unfortunately, that did not get me any contacts who now could (or would) get me an invite to the server, ah well.



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Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2019, 05:29:58 PM »
A lot of posters are missing the lead here. The release 24 server exists and is functional.  SCORE has a working version to use!

Until this news there was serious question as to whether the code needed to run COH even still existed or could be made functional.

SCORE stands for "The Secret Cabal of REVERSE ENGINEERS.  And at least one of their hypothesized projects is a reverse-engineered COH 24 server that can be run on a single machine released into the wild for anybody to run.  If you're focusing on the fact that they have a server running (like that idiot behind the "all of us or none of us" crap a few years back) you're missing the fact that this is the best news about getting the game back in the last 5 years.


Running stolen code with stolen data and copyrighted  content on a server is not the same as reverse engineering the server and playing it with new and original,  uncopyrighted fan fiction....
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