Author Topic: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)  (Read 12244 times)

Pearl Dragon

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2019, 01:26:26 PM »
Please keep Paragon Chat.  All of your hard work is very much appreciated.

slickriptide

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2019, 04:56:00 PM »
Here's what I'm wondering - Now that the source code is in the wild, it seems to me that it's less that "now there's no need for Paragon Chat" than "Now there's no need for patching and overwriting the client in-memory code.".

I suspect that enjoyment of reverse-engineering is a large part of what got you interested in making Paragon Chat in the first place, Codewalker, but if you don't HAVE to reverse-engineer it, then what's your interest level in building a new client that has Paragon Chat built-in instead of tacked on?

Paragon Chat 2.0, basically.

XtremeFear27

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2019, 05:00:39 PM »
Codewalker you are working on NPCS and combat?

GuyPerfect

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2019, 05:13:53 PM »
I suspect that enjoyment of reverse-engineering is a large part of what got you interested in making Paragon Chat in the first place, Codewalker, but if you don't HAVE to reverse-engineer it, then what's your interest level in building a new client that has Paragon Chat built-in instead of tacked on?

I am admittedly not Codewalker, so while I won't claim to be inside his head, I can speak on behalf of Titan Network on this matter.

Since the original source code for the game client is illegal for anyone outside of NCsoft to have or use, Paragon Chat will not begin using it, nor even reference it as a shortcut around reverse-engineering. Paragon Chat has been fully legal up to now, and will remain fully legal going forward.

Codewalker

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2019, 06:08:52 PM »
I've been hearing from a lot of people, here, in Paragon Chat, and in PMs, who would like to see the project continue even in the light of private servers out there. I didn't expect quite that much of a reaction, and I'm touched to hear about some of the personal connections that people have made through it -- that blew my mind.

Since there are going to be plenty of talented people hacking away on the full-blown server, I'm thinking maybe this is an opportunity to go even more in a different direction. There isn't as pressing of a need to try to reproduce combat and leveling (admittedly the hardest part in a distributed environment) since that will be filled by the various private servers. Instead I could focus on the more creative aspects like basebuilding, character creation (integrate Icon's NPC mode?), RP, tabletop, as well as exploration and building on the ability to see the game world without being attacked.

It would be interesting to hear some ideas for development direction, especially from those in the community who think they might still have a use for Paragon Chat even after game servers are widely available.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 06:32:21 PM by Codewalker »

Codewalker

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2019, 06:15:08 PM »
Here's what I'm wondering - Now that the source code is in the wild, it seems to me that it's less that "now there's no need for Paragon Chat" than "Now there's no need for patching and overwriting the client in-memory code.".

I suspect that enjoyment of reverse-engineering is a large part of what got you interested in making Paragon Chat in the first place, Codewalker, but if you don't HAVE to reverse-engineer it, then what's your interest level in building a new client that has Paragon Chat built-in instead of tacked on?

Paragon Chat 2.0, basically.

I was thinking about that. Right now the client piece relies on a custom exe loader that builds out the process, loads in the Issue 24 client code, and patches it using a runtime assembler -- tied together with symbol names I got from a leaked pdb file and a bunch of automation to make near source level modification possible. But even with those advanced techniques there are some static things that are difficult to change. Simply patching the source and recompiling would allow for a lot more possibilities than are currently feasible. This would also allow for importing the enhanced base editing features from SCORE's I25 client.

In an environment with a bunch of full blown private servers popping up all over the place, that would be a lot easier to get away with...

Giving it some thought.

Ulysses Dare

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2019, 08:29:33 PM »
Count me as another vote for keeping Pargaon Chat going. Because the private servers might still get shut down. Because, if the private servers have to disperse to the four winds in order to survive, PC still provides a place where we can all come together. Because, even without mobs or missions, PC is still a great place to socialize, role-play, or futz around with the base builder.

VileTerror

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The Room in the Elephant
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2019, 09:03:13 PM »
Ideas?   Dev Kits! 
I mean, I get that you have a life outside of Paragon Chat, and I'm asking a lot . . . but if far-flung dreams are permitted, then I'd like to see you work on development tools that "weak-sauce" devs on my level can utilize with ease.  Ideally, tools for implementing additional costume pieces or graphic effects in to the costume creator and emotes.  I think it would be amazing and wonderful for a community content group to form with people importing original creations to further flesh out the options available in Paragon Chat to express ourselves.

Also . . . base building is great, but what about full map building?   Such as utilizing the tileset pieces found in mission maps or the zone maps.  How feasible is that?

I may not be developing my tabletop game of City of Heroes at the moment, and have no immediate plans to resume, but I'd still really appreciate a way to get overhead shots of interior maps without all the doodads and spawn locations showing as well.   https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=12282

No matter what; thank you for everything that you've done, Codewalker.  I can't rightly express in text just how much what you've done with Paragon Chat means.

Eiko-chan

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2019, 10:14:53 PM »
I'm wondering if the XMPP integration pieces might not be super-useful to any communities trying to build around SCoRE binaries or recompiled sources as a communication hub/global chat for those groups. Might be worth putting out an offer, at least.

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2019, 02:12:52 AM »
Instead I could focus on the more creative aspects like basebuilding, character creation (integrate Icon's NPC mode?), RP, tabletop, as well as exploration and building on the ability to see the game world without being attacked.

This sounds really exciting, Codewalker.  I'd love to see if there's more that could be done with base-building, and exploring RP options, fantastic!

BraveStar

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2019, 02:36:56 AM »
I really love Paragon Chat, Codewalker, and hope you continue with it. You should be very proud of your contribution to our community.

Personally, I love the idea of being able to use it to host pen & paper RPG games in Paragon Chat. It would also be great to have a version we could run as a small group server (so, say, the GM could setup a server and have his or her adventures in it.

Codewalker

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2019, 03:31:32 AM »
So I guess you guys have seen Tony's announcement. He dropped it on me only an hour or so before he posted it.

I don't trust them further than I can throw them, but if somehow that works out I might suddenly have a lot of other stuff taking up my time. :o Whichever way things go we'll figure out a way to keep Paragon Chat alive and well.

aeb

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2019, 03:42:18 AM »
Since there are going to be plenty of talented people hacking away on the full-blown server, I'm thinking maybe this is an opportunity to go even more in a different direction. There isn't as pressing of a need to try to reproduce combat and leveling (admittedly the hardest part in a distributed environment) since that will be filled by the various private servers. Instead I could focus on the more creative aspects like basebuilding, character creation (integrate Icon's NPC mode?), RP, tabletop, as well as exploration and building on the ability to see the game world without being attacked.

It would be interesting to hear some ideas for development direction, especially from those in the community who think they might still have a use for Paragon Chat even after game servers are widely available.

Now you're talking. I've noticed for a while that PChat shows signs of becoming a virtual world. I think that one oriented towards RP gaming of a would be perfect. Yes, the servers are nice, but when you're trying to RP a mission AE struggles with, PChat works better. :) :D

Right now, it's a good server for people to use who are using a handful of internet-forum rules with no dice or anything. These people already have most of the basics. What they would benefit, anyone RPing would benefit from.

We're working on playing with dice, too, but the dicebag appears to be loaded. Someone who hasn't forgotten how to run a chi square needs to check the D 20, and if it's as loaded as I think, we need a new, improved, not-loaded dicebag.

Expanding bases and costuming would help with RP, and social members as well. So might adding more NPCs around the place. Walkers are nice for flavor, but static standers are particularly useful. I like to have certain enemies attack some of the NPCS standing around to reduce the number of toons I need to put up. My computer doesn't like more than 5, maybe even less.


Codewalker

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2019, 03:47:16 AM »
We're working on playing with dice, too, but the dicebag appears to be loaded. Someone who hasn't forgotten how to run a chi square needs to check the D 20, and if it's as loaded as I think, we need a new, improved, not-loaded dicebag.

Wait what? I went out of my way to use a high-quality RNG for that rather than the standard dumb rand(). I'm going to be really disappointed if it's not as random as the paper claimed.

aeb

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2019, 04:10:44 AM »
Wait what? I went out of my way to use a high-quality RNG for that rather than the standard dumb rand(). I'm going to be really disappointed if it's not as random as the paper claimed.

I know it's hard to get things properly random with a computer, but I played AD&D for around 3 decades, and our dice weren't biased, because Dad did run chi-squares on them to prove it. None of our d20's rolled 3 1's in a row as often as that dicebag has this spring. I've personally done it at least 3 times, and others friends have, too. We aren't rolling them so often that makes any sense on unloaded dice. *spread hands*

Shenku

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Re: The Room in the Elephant
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2019, 04:23:36 AM »
Also . . . base building is great, but what about full map building?   Such as utilizing the tileset pieces found in mission maps or the zone maps.  How feasible is that?

You must not have heard about what it was exactly that Leandro added to base building.

He was sharing screenshots with someone on a live stream over the weekend of what people had made with it, and they essentially had access to most of the static models in the game (Trees, signs, some visual effects, you name it), and said that the map size limit was raised so much you literally could make entire zones with it. The examples he showed were things like temples, floating outdoor islands, a giant plane looking thing (Like something the Skyraiders would probably use for a base, as several people pointed out in the stream), and a literal space station that was actually in a space skybox.

If Codewalker could somehow get that working in Paragon Chat, I'm sure people would have kittens to be able to mess around with the new tools.

Kheprera

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2019, 04:59:46 AM »
I would love to see the basebuilder expanded so we have things like Walls. Real walls, not things made from bookcases.

Spiral staircases. Glass without emblems. Floors that you can't see through from below. Real water effects.

I never knew my real grandfather. He was killed in a plane crash two weeks before my mom's 14th birthday. He was an architect. Base building has allowed me to somewhat connect to this man I never got to meet, but who I hear stories of, such as him dancing a jig and playing the harmonica on the lunch tables in high school. I'd like to be able to build extravagant things so my SG can RP, roam around the isles doing stuff without getting attacked, even if we are playing in CoX or CoT or whichever game system we're in.

And we have D&D nights, and it would be kind of cool to build a dungeon and have our characters roaming through it as we played. The possibilities.

So yes, I want Paragon Chat to live on. Please.  ;D

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: The Room in the Elephant
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2019, 05:10:15 AM »
You must not have heard about what it was exactly that Leandro added to base building.

He was sharing screenshots with someone on a live stream over the weekend of what people had made with it, and they essentially had access to most of the static models in the game (Trees, signs, some visual effects, you name it), and said that the map size limit was raised so much you literally could make entire zones with it. The examples he showed were things like temples, floating outdoor islands, a giant plane looking thing (Like something the Skyraiders would probably use for a base, as several people pointed out in the stream), and a literal space station that was actually in a space skybox.

If Codewalker could somehow get that working in Paragon Chat, I'm sure people would have kittens to be able to mess around with the new tools.
That sounds lovely actually.
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Eiko-chan

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2019, 05:12:18 AM »
I would love to see the basebuilder expanded so we have things like Walls. Real walls, not things made from bookcases.

Spiral staircases. Glass without emblems. Floors that you can't see through from below. Real water effects.
But is it really Base Building if it's not equal parts hack and brilliant?

navyrayne

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Re: The Elephant in the Room (& the future of Paragon Chat)
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2019, 12:24:46 PM »
I pretty much just want to see everything, regardless of what happens. I want to see PC stay alive and well through all this. So, ya know, do what you think is best and easiest.
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