Author Topic: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices  (Read 9748 times)

Felderburg

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Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« on: May 04, 2010, 06:09:39 AM »
I've been editing the villain side arcs for I17, and it seems to me that new templates for dialog trees and in-mission choices would be nice.


For dialog trees, something involving boxes and sub boxes?  I mean, the system as it is now is okay, but a bit cumbersome, and I think that if there are going to be a lot of missions involving dialog trees it would be nice to have something specific for them. Check this out for an example: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Dean_MacArthur/Dialogue_Tree  <--that takes some doing, but if there were a template to do something like that for us, that'd be neat. Otherwise, the way things are now is ok (but a template for that too would be nice).

(Although this topic touches on Dean's gender specific dialog, the main issue is trees in general, and discussion on his dialog should be kept on his wiki article discussion page)


As far as mission choices go, the issue is notifying that parts are different or optional, and how to do that.

SPOILERS

For example, in Leonard's arc, you have the Freakshow Rep, who asks you about rescuing Killdozer. Now, I've only done the mission once, so I don't know what happens if you don't (which is another issue with wikifying these missions-you have to do them twice).

Right now, I just put a little "Note: this section will be skipped, depending on your choice," and a note about how to enter dialog from freakshow enemies, if they spawn (which I have no idea if they do, but I suspect they might).

I'm betting that there will be a lot more missions like this, with multiple optional objectives, and figuring out a unified way of putting them together on the Wiki will probably be important.

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Leonard_Silmon#Get_the_PPD_files_in_Independence_Port.21 Here's a link to that mission from his arc. His last mission, with the option to rob the bank, will also have this issue.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 06:16:09 AM by Felderburg »
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eabrace

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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 01:20:00 PM »
We had previously started to discuss dialogue trees while documenting I17 Open Beta, but didn't reach any definite conclusion.

The topic does probably deserve its own thread so that we can better sort it out, so we can continue the discussion here.

That being said, I need to concentrate on getting out of the house and getting to work at the moment.  :)
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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 01:36:02 PM »
I like the nested hidden boxes. I added to your page an example of formatting if the boxes were indented. If indenting is the route to go, then we should develop standard templates for each level:

{{dialog1|text}}
{{dialog2|text}}
etc...

This would give each level a standard color and indentation.

Felderburg

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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 11:03:41 PM »
I like the nested hidden boxes. I added to your page an example of formatting if the boxes were indented. If indenting is the route to go, then we should develop standard templates for each level:

{{dialog1|text}}
{{dialog2|text}}
etc...

This would give each level a standard color and indentation.

See, something like that is what I was thinking.

I could see an article going something like:

{{dialog|title=green text choice 1|text=contact response}}

{{subdialog|title=green choice 1|text=ipsum}}

{{undersubdialog|title=green undersub choice 1|text=hooray}}

{{undersubdialog|title=green undersub choice 2|text=bummer}}

{{subdialog|title=green choice 2|text=lorem}}

{{dialog|title=green text choice 2|text=alternate contact response}}

 (cooler names might be needed).

Here the titles are your green text choices, the text is the contact response, as well as a green text response IF there is only one.  For example, above, in the second dialog (green text choice 2) there might be a green text response, formatted as normal with the *{{green|asdasdasdas}} (and even a following contact response).

If we do go the box route, I do agree that each box should be colored differently, but I think that each box's title should be colored green, as the titles would be the green dialog you select in the game window.



I could also see something like the mission objective template, which has space for primary, secondary, additional objectives, and the entrance and completion text.

The only problem with that is that I assume it limits the amount of categories, and unless there's a way to make a template ask you how many choices you want, and how many sub choices each main choice has, I think Zombie's idea of a template for each level of dialog choice is best.

Also, since we have no idea what content GR has, templates ought to be made for at least 4 levels of choice, in my opinion.



Somewhat unrelated: dialog vs. dialogue? Both are correct (I think), which should we use? Or does it even matter?
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eabrace

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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 11:11:39 PM »
Somewhat unrelated: dialog vs. dialogue? Both are correct (I think), which should we use? Or does it even matter?

Heh.  We had this discussion once before.  Can't recall if it was after we moved here or if it was on the old boards.

Basically:
* For any conversation-related text (interactions with NPCs, ambushes shouting as they enter a mission, etc), "dialogue" is the preferred spelling.
* When talking about part of a GUI that requires interaction (like a popup error window), "dialog" is the preferred spelling.
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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 11:15:21 PM »
Somewhat unrelated: dialog vs. dialogue? Both are correct (I think), which should we use? Or does it even matter?

We had a discussion about this on the old paragonwiki forums. I'm not sure there's a firm conclusion in there. I notice that Chrome wants me to spell it as "dialog" though, apparently. (EDIT: Eabrace beat me to it! :) )


I'm stumped on the way to present this stuff. Looking at some of the text, it doesn't look like these are necessarily trees. A tree has paths that branch, but they never re-converge. Some of the dialog paths in the missions I've read do appear to re-converge though (however, it's not clear if they're actually re-converging or if they're just using identical text to make it look like it re-converges). I'm not sure that a tree approach is ideal, but I'm also at a loss for a better suggestion.

I don't entirely like the idea of using hidden boxes as-is. In normal missions, you can read over the page to get the core dialog text without having to expand things. If we handle dialog trees exclusively with hidden boxes, then it becomes impossible to read over the mission without expanding something. That makes for a jarring change, I think.

I almost would prefer to see something where it shows up with one path through the tree by default, but lets you click on things to change it to reflect alternate paths. That would effectively build on the hidden-style functionality, but would need additional stuff that we don't currently have implemented. I'm not convinced that this would even be ideal though, since some people will undoubtedly want to expand all branches at once -- which wouldn't necessarily be feasible with what I'm trying to describe.

So I dunno. It's certainly an interesting problem.

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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 11:49:31 PM »
We had a discussion about this on the old paragonwiki forums. I'm not sure there's a firm conclusion in there. I notice that Chrome wants me to spell it as "dialog" though, apparently. (EDIT: Eabrace beat me to it! :) )


I'm stumped on the way to present this stuff. Looking at some of the text, it doesn't look like these are necessarily trees. A tree has paths that branch, but they never re-converge. Some of the dialog paths in the missions I've read do appear to re-converge though (however, it's not clear if they're actually re-converging or if they're just using identical text to make it look like it re-converges). I'm not sure that a tree approach is ideal, but I'm also at a loss for a better suggestion.

I don't entirely like the idea of using hidden boxes as-is. In normal missions, you can read over the page to get the core dialog text without having to expand things. If we handle dialog trees exclusively with hidden boxes, then it becomes impossible to read over the mission without expanding something. That makes for a jarring change, I think.

I almost would prefer to see something where it shows up with one path through the tree by default, but lets you click on things to change it to reflect alternate paths. That would effectively build on the hidden-style functionality, but would need additional stuff that we don't currently have implemented. I'm not convinced that this would even be ideal though, since some people will undoubtedly want to expand all branches at once -- which wouldn't necessarily be feasible with what I'm trying to describe.

So I dunno. It's certainly an interesting problem.

This is a good point.

As far as presentation, the way things are presented now is alright, with the indented levels. Maybe {{divbox}} should be used; that way, the dialogue is separated, but is also still not hidden. I'll experiment on my little page.

Edit: I whipped up some {{divbox}} stuff, I think it looks pretty good. Better than the way it is now? A matter of opinion. But if there was some way to easily turn any presentation into a nice template, that's what I'm looking for - rather than keeping track of how many colons each line has to have, or whether a divbox is embedded in another divbox properly (which, as I discovered, can be easily messed up, if you miss some ending brackets).
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 12:07:38 AM by Felderburg »
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Aggelakis

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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 02:46:34 AM »
I did a moderately nicer looking example of indented text boxes, including a different color for each "level" of "indentedness" (fake words are fun)

link

just basic gray atm, wasn't fussing with prettification, just getting it finished.



Keep in mind that having the possibility of doubled dialogues (male and female) or even quadrupled dialogues (male/win, male/fail, female/win, female/fail), using unhidden formatting of any sort is going to make the articles VERY VERY LONG.
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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2010, 06:26:01 AM »
I don't entirely like the idea of using hidden boxes as-is. In normal missions, you can read over the page to get the core dialog text without having to expand things. If we handle dialog trees exclusively with hidden boxes, then it becomes impossible to read over the mission without expanding something. That makes for a jarring change, I think.

I almost would prefer to see something where it shows up with one path through the tree by default, but lets you click on things to change it to reflect alternate paths.
Leave the path open which involves clicking the first response to each option. It's probably what someone speeding through the dialogue to get to the mission will do anyway.

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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2010, 08:01:43 PM »
Leave the path open which involves clicking the first response to each option. It's probably what someone speeding through the dialogue to get to the mission will do anyway.

Not a bad idea...  perhaps a template for a notification at the top of a contact's page, saying "this contact has branching dialogue!"

A warning, as well, for people who do them through Ouroborous, as the initial contact appears to be bugged, as per this thread on the official forums: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=220935
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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2010, 05:31:29 AM »
Mission choices also need a set, defined way to present them.  Right now in Leonard's page, the IP mission ( http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Leonard#Get_the_PPD_files_in_Independence_Port.21 ) I've set them apart in green divboxes, and editor's notes everywhere. I think it looks ok, but if there are any ideas about a better way to present it, or templates that could be made for it, rather than sticking divboxes and ednotes everywhere, that would be cool.
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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2010, 01:20:32 PM »
I've been letting this issue cook on the back burner in my head for a while and came up with an idea this morning.  If it works the way I'm thinking, it might provide a good compromise for moving forward without impacting too many existing contacts.  But, before I get too much into it, I want to do some research to be certain about that last part.

I'll explain more when I'm done digging.  :)
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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2010, 12:18:38 AM »
OK.  I've done some digging.  I won't say it was all-encompassing and exhaustive, but I think I got a good sample size in my investigation.

1)  I'm not saying all of this was my idea.  Bits and pieces were taken from previous posts in this thread and rearranged and combined with other ideas to come up with this.

2)  Obviously, I'm inviting feedback.

Here's my idea.

First step:  We need to create a dividing line.

On one side of the line will be contacts that existed prior to Issue 11 (when Ouroboros was introduced).  In addition, any contacts introduced after Issue 11 that continued to use the pre-I11 format will be included in this group of contacts.  Contacts belonging to this group will use the current standard format for their articles.  Er go, the mission acceptance text will be used to identify the contact's missions.

On the other side of the line will be contacts introduced in Issue 11 and later that began using the newly-evolving contact formats that have led us up to the current difficulties with our old article format.  These contact will use a new format for contacts that will still share much in common with the old format, but will be refined to make mission titles make more sense and make branching contact dialogue and mid-mission NPC interactions flow more smoothly.

In order to determine which category a contact fits into, we will look for one specific trait:  Do they or do they not identify missions in their story arc as follows:  "<Story Arc Title>,  Part <Chapter Number>:  <Chapter Title>".  The first contacts to introduce these identifiers were the Ouroboros contacts, and use of these identifiers has become more common since.  In addition - at least to the best of my knowledge - contacts identifying their story arcs in this manner also do not offer random non-arc missions, so they only allow a single mission option during any interaction.

This will require a little bit of rework to some of the older articles in order to update their formatting to the new style, but it won't be anywhere near as bad as going back and reworking all of the existing contact articles.

All of the contacts were updated over the last year or so in order to make them all match the same basic style and format, and I do not want to see all that work wasted or make anyone go back and do all that work again.  However, in updating those contacts, some of the contact articles had artificial arc identifiers added where they do not exist in-game.  The only thing we should have to do to these articles is go in and remove those artificial identifiers.  Would the articles be OK if we left them in?  Probably.  However, they would very easily confuse any new editors on the wiki who might be entering in a new contact's info if they thought that those older contact articles were formatted in the new contact style.  Therefore, the artificially added identifiers should be removed to prevent any confusion later on.

In the new contact format, unlike the old format, instead of using mission acceptance text in mission headings, we should instead use the story arc chapter title identifiers.  Subheadings to identify individual missions that belong to any chapter with multiple missions should use the primary mission objective as their subheadings.  Using Keith Nance as an example, we go from this:

4.1 Twisted Reflections (20-29)
* 4.1.1 Souvenir
# 4.1.2 Funny, Nance. I'll get to the dam and put an end to this.
* 4.1.2.1 Stabilize the situation at the Faultline Dam
* 4.1.2.2 Speak with Agent G
* 4.1.2.3 Go to the Arachnos Base
* 4.1.2.4 Visit Mirror Spirit
* 4.1.2.5 Chase Your Evil Double into the Sewers!
* 4.1.2.6 Speak with Keith about your Evil Double
* 4.1.2.7 Speak to Citadel to track your Evil Double
* 4.1.2.8 Defeat your evil double

to this:

4.1 Twisted Reflections (20-29)
* 4.1.1 Souvenir
# 4.1.2 Twisted Reflections - Part One: Government Boy
# 4.1.3 Twisted Reflections - Part Two: Just a Misunderstanding
- 4.1.3.1 Speak with Agent G
- 4.1.3.2 Go to the Arachnos Base
# 4.1.4 Twisted Reflections - Part Three: A Brand New Me
- 4.1.4.1 Visit Mirror Spirit
- 4.1.4.2 Chase Your Evil Double into the Sewers!
# 4.1.5 Twisted Reflections - Part Four: My Mirror Life
- 4.1.5.1 Speak with Keith about your Evil Double
- 4.1.5.2 Speak to Citadel to track your Evil Double
- 4.1.5.3 Defeat your evil double

That's a start.  Obviously there's more to hash out (like exactly how we want to address branching dialogue, how to format the mission acceptance text in a mission briefing, etc.), but I think this is where we need to start.

Also, I think we need to better document the two styles on their own pages.  I think we might have a starter example boilerplate contact template somewhere, but I can't recall exactly where.  We should make sure that's up to date with the format that was used until now along with a note that it is intended only for contacts without arc/chapter identifiers.  Then a new page should be started where we can document the new format for arc/chapter contacts with a note stating that it is intended for only those contacts.  Both should be mentioned in the article guidelines documentation.

Let's pause here to discuss.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 12:24:16 AM by eabrace »
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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2010, 06:46:38 PM »
In addition - at least to the best of my knowledge - contacts identifying their story arcs in this manner also do not offer random non-arc missions, so they only allow a single mission option during any interaction.

I think this is key, here. The old contacts needed to be identified by acceptance dialog because they offered more than one mission at a time. The only problem will arise if newer contacts start offering missions outside their arcs... but given that contacts since CoV haven't really done that, I don't think we have to worry.

I like using the Part titles do title the various sections. Makes a lot of sense.

For branching dialogue, maybe something involving columns? Like this:


Bla bla bla says the contact. I am so cool, because without me you don't get xp.
______________________________________________________________________________
*green text in agreement              | *green text in disagreement
contact thinks you're awesome      | contact is super pissed.
                                                       ___________________________________________________
*green text mission acceptance     | *green text of apology      |*green text of further enragement
                                                       |contact is ok with you now |contact is angrier
                                                       |*green text                        |*green text
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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2010, 08:58:56 PM »
For dialogue, I can think of at least one method that would be very efficient, but it would not look very good in presentation.

The way dialog trees were set up when creating/editing content in Neverwinter Nights, each bit of dialogue had a unique identifier (much like the text here does), and each response option specified which branch it would send you to next.  Set up that way, looping was even possible.  I don't know that we've seen the full extent of what the new interaction mechanics are capable of, but I wouldn't put something like looping outside the scope of possibilities.

The dialog would be set up something like this in a table:

Code: [Select]
Dialogue A | "This is my introductory dialogue." | Response A1 | "Nice to meet you."              | -> Dialogue B
           |                                     | Response A2 | "I don't think I like you."      | -> Dialogue C
Dialogue B | "Good.  I have a job for you."      | Response B1 | "I'll accept your mission."      | -> Dialogue D
           |                                     | Response B2 | "No thanks, I'm not interested." | -> Dialogue E
Dialogue C | "But I'm a nice guy!"               | Response C1 | "OK, I've changed my mind."      | -> Dialogue B
           |                                     | Response C2 | "Not gonna happen."              | -> Dialogue E
Dialogue D | "Excellent!  Go get 'em!"           | End
Dialogue E | "Suit yourself.  It's your loss."   | End

I didn't put any loops in there, but notice that responses from both branches A and C can take you to branch B, and responses in both branches B and C can take you to branch E.

If we could find a way to make something like that actually look presentable on a contact page, I think we'd be able to reliably capture interactions like we're running into now and give ourselves room for growth if we haven't seen the full capabilities of the mechanics yet.
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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2010, 12:53:41 AM »
I really like Eabrace's suggestion about having a dividing line, where we handle older contacts the old way and newer contacts the new way.

Eabrace's suggestion about basically setting dialogue branches up with links is also intriguing. It would allow us to set them up linearly and then just link them together. This seems much more elegant, flexible, and readable than an indentation style. And we could still make use of the hide templates to help trim down the length and hide alternate paths; we leave a single path expanded, and in linear order, so that it's easy to read. If someone wants to branch off to another path, they'd just have to expand some of the hidden text (and possibly would have to jump around a wee bit).

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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 07:32:41 PM »
On one side of the line will be contacts that existed prior to Issue 11 (when Ouroboros was introduced).

[...]

In order to determine which category a contact fits into, we will look for one specific trait:  Do they or do they not identify missions in their story arc as follows:  "<Story Arc Title>,  Part <Chapter Number>:  <Chapter Title>".  The first contacts to introduce these identifiers were the Ouroboros contacts, and use of these identifiers has become more common since.

If that's where you got Issue 11 from, then we need to bump it back one. The first case of "Arc, Part: Title" were the Rikti War Zone contacts in Issue 10.

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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 10:32:19 PM »
Yup.  You're right.  I forgot they came first.  Issue 10, then.
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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2010, 07:27:34 AM »
I have been playing around on a personal wiki I've set up on my computer with the same basic settings as PWiki has. Trying to create a template that leaves the first set of conversation options open at all times and collapses the other options, and allows expanding and re-collapsing of the rest of the conversation options dynamically.

I'm really having trouble doing anything elegantly.

IMO I really don't like the look of the branching options with "Dialogue A, B, Response A1, A2, etc". That just can't be fiddled with enough to look decent, not to mention for folks like me with a learning disability (somewhat severe dyslexia), it is incredibly hard to read.
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eabrace

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Re: Dialog Trees & Mission Choices
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2010, 11:48:01 AM »
I'm wondering if we can't use the TreeandMenu extension for Mediawiki for this.

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TreeAndMenu

Quote
The TreeAndMenu extension allows bullet lists to be rendered as folder trees.
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