Alternate Accolade Requirements

[GuyPerfect]

So I was looking at Freedom Phalanx Fallen Badge just now and got to thinking... This article, technically, is chock full of incomplete and incorrect information.

First of all, and I'll admit this is nitpicking, you cannot earn Freedom Phalanx Fallen. You can earn Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member, and it will transform into Freedom Phalanx Fallen when you transition to Villain, but you cannot earn Freedom Phalanx Fallen in this form.

Secondly, you don't need to pick up all those badges listed on the page to earn the badge. If you have High Pain Threshold as a Rogue and transition to Hero (meaning you now have Gotten Soft), you will be granted Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member as a result.

This is true for all alignment-restricted, power-granting set Accolades. What to do about it? I'd do two things:

1) Do not include a list of badges in the How to Get section on the version of the badge corresponding with Alignments that cannot earn the badge. Instead, simply note that you can only earn the badge as a certain Alignment and link to the original badge.

In this example, Freedom Phalanx Fallen's How to Get section will become something like "This badge is the Villain form of the Hero-only badge [[Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member Badge|Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member]]. To get it, you need to change [[Alignment]] to Hero or Vigilante first."

2) On the other page, the one that corresponds with Alignments that can earn the badge, the How to Get needs to be amended to include "Or" along with the single Accolade from the other side that will also unlock it on this side.

In this example, Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member's How to Get section will have "Or:" followed by a How to Get table containing either Gotten Soft or, probably more useful, High Pain Threshold.

[eabrace]

First of all, and I'll admit this is nitpicking, you cannot earn Freedom Phalanx Fallen. You can earn Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member, and it will transform into Freedom Phalanx Fallen when you transition to Villain, but you cannot earn Freedom Phalanx Fallen in this form.

More technically, you can earn the badge in any form, but it will not award unless/until you are a hero or vigilante.

Secondly, you don't need to pick up all those badges listed on the page to earn the badge. If you have High Pain Threshold as a Rogue and transition to Hero (meaning you now have Gotten Soft), you will be granted Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member as a result.

This is true, but I haven't had a chance to go through and add that info yet.

1) Do not include a list of badges in the How to Get section on the version of the badge corresponding with Alignments that cannot earn the badge. Instead, simply note that you can only earn the badge as a certain Alignment and link to the original badge.

I would have to disagree here.  Any villain checking to see if he has satisfied the requirements to earn this badge upon transitioning to a hero will have to follow the link to Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member first.  That's one level of indirection.  When they see that they have not earned Purifier, they will have to follow the link to Purifier to see what its requirements are.  That's two levels of indirection.  If they look there and see that they have already earned the badge in form of Defiler, then they're done, but if they have not, they need to follow one more link to Defiler.  That's three levels of indirection.

It doesn't make any sense to me to make people run through three levels of indirection to figure out if they have satisfied the requirements for a badge when they can figure it all out in - at most - one.

In this example, Freedom Phalanx Fallen's How to Get section will become something like "This badge is the Villain form of the Hero-only badge [[Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member Badge|Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member]]. To get it, you need to change [[Alignment]] to Hero or Vigilante first."

Already noted in the Notes section of both the hero and villain version of the badge.

2) On the other page, the one that corresponds with Alignments that can earn the badge, the How to Get needs to be amended to include "Or" along with the single Accolade from the other side that will also unlock it on this side.

In this example, Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member's How to Get section will have "Or:" followed by a How to Get table containing either Gotten Soft or, probably more useful, High Pain Threshold.

As I mentioned, I haven't had a chance to add this to the pages yet, but I'm planning to.

The biggest issue I have with removing the "How to" info from pages like Freedom Phalanx Fallen is that earning the badge by getting everything required as a villain and then changing alignment to hero is equally as valid as earning it by unlocking High Pain Threshold and changing alignments.  Either method works, but it is entirely up to the player to decide which method they wish to use.  Since both methods are valid, both should be documented.

[Sekoia]

Any villain checking to see if he has satisfied the requirements to earn this badge upon transitioning to a hero will have to follow the link to Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member first.  That's one level of indirection.  When they see that they have not earned Purifier, they will have to follow the link to Purifier to see what its requirements are.  That's two levels of indirection.  If they look there and see that they have already earned the badge in form of Defiler, then they're done, but if they have not, they need to follow one more link to Defiler.  That's three levels of indirection.

Here's what I think:

I would suggest that for "Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member", we list the required badges with both hero and villain names. Maybe "Purifier (Defiler)" or "Purifier/Defiler". In truth, either of Purifier or Defiler would count. And we shouldn't assume that the person reading an article is of the same alignment as the article. (If I wanted to look up the requirements for this badge, I'd probably look up "Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member" regardless of my current alignment because that's what I'm used to calling the badge.) Otherwise, without listing both, you're still forcing a layer of indirection for opposite-alignment readers -- either to the alternate version of the accolade badge, or to the alternate versions of each of the requirement badges.

Then also add the requirement to have Hero or Vigilante alignment, of course.

Then, for Freedom Phalanx Fallen, put the requirements as "Earn Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member" and "Switch alignment to Villain or Rogue". Those are, effectively, the requirements for having that badge award.

Then remove the detailed listing from Freedom Phalanx Fallen. Yes, there's now a single level of indirection, but a single layer of indirection isn't that big of a deal, and I hate seeing us keep the same information in two places unnecessarily. And I suspect (though I could be wrong) that people will tend to look these things up by the badges' original alignments anyway. Plus, as I mentioned above, as you currently plan to do it there would have already been a single layer of indirection depending on who's reading the article. This just moves where the indirection is going to occur.

I agree that three layers of indirection is horrible. However, a single layer for the alternate-name versions seems acceptable to me, and not much of a burden for the reader. In fact, I think it'd actually be clearer.

[eabrace]

I'll take a look at it, and see how it looks, but there are two quick points I want to touch on before I do:

If I wanted to look up the requirements for this badge, I'd probably look up "Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member" regardless of my current alignment because that's what I'm used to calling the badge.

And I suspect (though I could be wrong) that people will tend to look these things up by the badges' original alignments anyway.

It depends on how they're tracking their badges.  If they've been playing the game for a long time and they're just going from memory, then they might look them up by the original name.

(I know I haven't been looking them up by original names, but that's probably because I've been putting enough data in that I know which badge is which on each side by this point.)

Newer players or people using checklists, on the other hand are not likely to look the badge up by the original name.

Take for example, this excerpt from one of my villains' checklists as generated using the My Badge Checklists feature on CIT:

Accolade (64) left.

    * Thorn Robber (137) - One Respec Trial with 'Character Respecification' reward
    * Thorn Thief (138) - Two Respec Trials with 'Character Respecification' reward
    * Thorn Usurper (139) - Three Respec Trials with 'Character Respecification' reward
    * Mirage (143) - Scirocco's First Patron Arc
    * Bloodletter (144) - Captain Mako's First Patron Arc
    * The Stinger (147) - Black Scorpion's First Patron Arc
    * Marshal (222) - Annihilator, Arachnos Rising, Paragon of Vice, The Mongoose, The Next Big Thing, and Weapon of Mass Destruction
    * Headline Stealer (223) - Couch Potato, Crimelord, Crooked Politician, Electrician, Master/Mistress of the Airwaves, Strike Buster, and Surging
    * Born in Battle (224) - Exterminator, Pirate, Primal Instinct, Hammer Down, Swashbuckler, Triumphant, and Iron Man/Iron Woman
    * High Pain Threshold (225) - Bad Luck, Deathless, Freak of Nature, Gangbuster, Locked and Loaded, Spider Smasher, and Technofreak
    * Demonic (226) - Coldhearted, Forged by Hellfire, Lorekeeper, Overlord, and Soul Taker
    * Megalomaniac (227) - Crystal Keeper, Last Stand, Man/Woman in Black, Strikebreaker, and Triumphant
    * Force of Nature (238) - Firebug, Hero Slayer, Impounder, Outlaw, Safecracker and Vandal
    * Invader (241) - Anarchist, Brickhouse, Gate Crasher, Global Threat, King Maker, Road Raged, Steel Worker, Talon of Talos, and Tyrannical
    * Task Force Abandoner (296) - Citadel's Assistant, Manticore's Associate, Numina's Compatriot, Positron's Ally, Sister Psyche's Comrade, and Synapse's Cohort
    * Force of Injustice (357) - All Safeguard Achievement badges
    * Stonehearted (358) - All Safeguard Exploration Badges
    * Field Crafter (468) - Inventor, First 4 Crafting Count Badges, all Level 40 and under Memorization badges
    * Watchman/Watchwoman (511) - Sentry, Bomb Specialist, and Chief
    * Corrupt Commissioner (748) - Law Enforcer & City Official
    * Security Breach (749) - Law Enforcer & Banker
    * Border Crosser (750) - Dimensional Explorer & Commuter
    * Crackpot (752) - Professor & Intern
    * Brood Leader (760) - Pilot & Arachnos
    * Mission Engineer (791) - Thrill Seeker, Gamer, Ticket Taker, Author, Recognized, Early Bird, Customizer, and Bug Fixer
    * Mercy Mariner (937) - Cesspool, Snake Charmer, Chum, Fortified, The Next Big Thing, Widower/Widow, First Rule, and Tiki Fan
    * Marcone Insider (942) - Scurvy Dog, Washed Up, Powder Monkey, Driller, Long Walk, Big Spider, Commuter's Woe, and Hidden Getaway
    * Mad Science Supporter (946) - Sparky, Media Junky, Egghead, Steamed, Sweet Tooth, Doom Sayer, Master of Science and Circle Gazer
    * Jumped the Shark (951) - Razor Toothed, Forged by Hellfire, Freak of Nature, Pit Viper, Sky Chaser, Unwelcome Guest, Sky Trader and Carping the Diem
    * Nerva Navigator (955) - Watcher on the Knoll, Locked and Loaded, Nerva Wreck, Primal Instinct, Tree Hugger, Unethical Tourist, Blind Eye and Soother
    * Johnny's Go To Guy/Gal (960) - Deuces Wild, Crimelord, Stonekeeper, Camel Snot, Dead Man's Tree, Slumlord, Infamous Rubble and Showstopper
    * Arachnos Spymaster (965) - Overlord, Sewer Dweller, Guttersnipe, Master/Mistress of the Airwaves, Passing Fab, Image Crasher, Line Holder and Gutter Bait
    * Atlas Tour Guide (968) - Undefeated, Silent Sentinel, Hero Corps Insider, Patriot, Top Dog, Freedom, Edge of Chaos and Observant
    * Wincott's Betrayer (972) - Parapsychologist, Seeker of Monsters, Geologist, Backwoodsman, Gangland Fury, Graffiti Communicator, Circle Seeker and Ironic
    * Galactic Explorer (976) - Bird Watcher, Blue Shield, Brawler, Tank, Land Locked, Galactic Fan, Eye of the Gemini and Orion's Belt
    * Former PPD Stoolie (980) - Summoned, Upgraded, Mystic King/Mystic Queen, Keen Sighted, Smokey, Wentworths History Buff, Pwned and Man/Woman of Vengeance
    * Canyon Carver (985) - Secret Admirer, Hero Corps Recruit, Nimble Mynx, Bright Star, Dance Legend, Controversial, Pet Project and Dirty Attorney
    * Sky Gazer (990) - Purifier, Solace, Dauntless, Healing Node, Better Days, Room for Expansion, Left Behind and Bridge to Nowhere
    * Citizen of Salamanca (996) - Grim Wanderer, Spiritual, Ensorcelled, Barrier Holder, Sally Sightseer, Jack's Wrath, Waylon's Observer and Midnighter's Perseverence
    * Island Hopper (1002) - Minotaur, Nature Lover, Whitecap, Last Line of Defense, The Old Me, Bridge Holder, Overtime Worker and Spanky's Competitor
    * IP Address (1008) - Crey Havoc, Valorous, Vigorous, Air Lifter, Dead End, Family Partier, Connector and Unlucky
    * Lost and Found (1015) - Foggy, Chaotician, Guardian Angel, Losing Paradise, Watchful Eyes, Hamidon's Fury, Founders' Hero and Misunderstood
    * King/Queen of the Zig (1022) - Mystic, Inmate, Flying Shark, Fugitive, Forward Thinker, Secret Path, Sixth Passenger and Unsubtle
    * Portal Corp Analyst (1030) - Portal Parter, Use Might for Right, Cause for Concern, Genetically Altered, Rikti Gone Wild, Shades of Arachnos, All-Seeing and Dark Omen
    * Faultline Finder (1043) - Undammed, Newsman/Newsgirl, Faultless Mystic, Apex, Escape Artist, Drowned Rat, Old Fashioned and Egg Hunter
    * Viva Praetoria (1081) - Pure Praetorian, Emperor for a Day, Knows Nova's Nooks, Beneath the Empire, A Neu Man, Neu You Could Do It, Rail Rider, Going Rouge
    * Agent of Chaos (1082) - Purchase Going Rogue
    * Pure Praetorian (1091) - Ambitious, Citizen Cole, Civic Minded, Guardians of Justice, Into the Wild, Technophile, Un-Civil Society, and On the Waterfront
    * Emperor for a Day (1100) - Tiberian Overseer, Praetorian of Privilege, Gold Digger, Tuned In, Mercy Missionary, Park Ranger, Seen, Seer, and Going Rouge
    * A Neu Man/Woman (1127) - Airlift, Don't Drink It, Eyes to the Future, Moar Power, Longshoreman, Stockpiling, Stuff of Life, and Urban Renewal
    * Agent of Praetoria (1216) - Purchase Going Rogue
    * Arena All-Star (1321) - Arena Victor, Arena Duelist, Tournament Victor, Arena Survivalist, Pentad Victor
    * Bug Hunter (1445) - Developer Granted
    * Atlas Shrugged (1447) - Pupil, Spelunker, The Silver Bullet, The Slayer, and Top Dog
    * Conspiracy Theorist (1448) - Bird Watcher, Crey Fish, Crey Havoc, Crey Watcher, Infiltrator, and The Doctor's Ally
    * Portal Jockey (1449) - Dimensional Warder, Multidimensional, Scholastic, and Shrouded
    * Freedom Phalanx Fallen (1450) - Authority, Brawler, Gearsmasher, Keen Sighted, Nimble Mynx, Purifier, Regal, Summoned, Tank Buster, Unveiler, and Vigorous
    * Archmage (1451) - Banisher, Dark Mystic, Faultless Mystic, Illusionist, Mystic, Mystic King/Queen, Soul Binder, and Tracer
    * Vanguard (1452) - Ace, Finder, Portal Parter, Savant, and Zookeeper
    * Lost the Stalwart Medallion (1453) - One Respec Trial with 'Character Respecification' reward
    * Denied the Statesman Star (1454) - Two Respec Trials with 'Character Respecification' reward
    * Stripped of the Freedom Cross (1455) - Three Respec Trials with 'Character Respecification' reward
    * X times the Victor (1587) - Up to 10 times, Defeat Mary Macomber in the Katie Hannon Task Force
    * Geas of the Kind Ones (1596) - Bane of Dannan, Believer, Cabalist, Cap Buster, Giant Killer, Haunted, Pumpkin King/Queen, Pumpkin Master/Mistress, and Spellbinding

If they're going by checklists instead of going from memory (as most players who are newer or less familiar with one side or the other would be doing), then they'll be looking for the badges with the names specific to the alignment they're sporting.

[eabrace]

Freedom Phalanx Reserve has been modified.  Before I go any further, feedback would be appreciated.  That way I won't go off and do a ton of editing and have to go back and change it all again.

[Sekoia]

I think it looks good. I almost think some of the "Notes" section should get merged into "How to Get" since those notes are information about how to get it, but I think it might make it too busy then.

If it's decided to include the whole list of badges in both articles, then I would suggest using DPL to transclude that section so that it's only maintained in one spot. I put an example of how to do that here:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/User:Sekoia/Sandbox/Four
It should probably get wrapped into a template for easier use, though, if we go that route.

And good point on the badge checklists, I hadn't thought of that! (...I still think a single level of indirection is acceptable though. )

[taosin]

Before I go any further, feedback would be appreciated.

Very clear and accessible; an improvement over the older version especially considering the additional content on the page.

Question in general: is the power retained if the character lapses from Hero or Villain?

[eabrace]

The power associated with the badge is half of the reason we're having to do this differently with some of these accolades.

While you lose the power from Task Force Commander if you become a villain, you will automatically be granted the badge and power for Invader when you switch sides - even if you haven't collected all of the exploration badges that you would normally need for that accolade.  This way you aren't penalized by side switching.

[GuyPerfect]

You actually don't ever lose Accolade powers when you change Alignment. The wrong side's just become inaccessible like higher-level powers do when you Exemplar. You can stick Geas of the Kind ones and Force of Nature next to each other in your power tray, but you'll only be able to actually click one of them.

[eabrace]

Just one more detail to encourage me to switch back to my native alignment set as soon as possible after I get the badges on the other side.  I hate dinking with my power trays once I have them set up.

[GuyPerfect]

Excuses, excuses...