Tyrant and ED have got to go

[GuyPerfect]

It's becoming increasingly apparent what direction the devs are going with certain terminology, and we need to change two instances of such terms on the wiki.


Tyrant - Should be Emperor Cole.

All of the Praetoria arcs refer to him that way, except for the Resistance, who call him Tyrant. Tina Macintyre and Maria Jenkins also refer to him as Tyrant, but I bet that's a holdover from the old arcs.

All the new arcs, including the Apex and Tin Mage Task Forces, and the new Roy Cooling contact (haven't done the Villain one yet) are using Cole (minus the emperor part). I expect this trend will continue. "Tyrant" will remain merely a nickname and will not be the predominant or official way to refer to the character.


Enhancement Diversification - Should be Enhancement Diminishing Returns.

This hasn't even been mentioned in-game until the Alpha Slot, where it was referred to as Enhancement Diminishing Returns. This is the official name of the mechanism and the wiki should reflect that. Any references to Enhancement Diversification should be changed to Enhancement Diminishing Returns, and Diversification itself forward to Returns as a redirect.

[Aggelakis]

Praetorian supervillains are called by their Primal Earth names (as this game is based primarily in Paragon City/Rogue Isles); this has been discussed before and consensus was reached before Going Rogue was released.

Enhancement Diversification is what the devs have called it for years and years, and this is what everyone in the game knows it as. Feel free to create a redirect from Enhancement Diminishing Returns to Enhancement Diversification.

[GuyPerfect]

Your argument is "do it the way we've always done it because it's the way we've always done it"? Think again, 'cause that's not gonna fly.

I'm in this for correctness, not familiarity. Tyrant is incorrect, as is Enhancement Diversification. It's time to change.

[eabrace]

No, the argument was (at least for Tyrant), we very specifically made a conscious decision regarding the standard we were going to use for consistency.  Discussion was had, consensus was reached.

[GuyPerfect]

For reference:

• Apex Task Force
  
• Tin Mage Task Force
  
• Roy Cooling

.
These are all very recent content, and in all of them the character is referred to as Cole. "Tyrant" doesn't even show up on those pages.

It's very clear that even to characters on Primal Earth, the character is called Cole, not Tyrant. I fact, the only place he's ever called Tyrant outside of Praetoria itself is by Tina Macintyre and Maria Jenkins; arcs that are holding over names and story from even older arcs that predate Going Rogue by several years.

So a consensus was reached. That's grand. Time to overturn it, since it's no longer applicable.

[Aggelakis]

Consensus was reached while we were updating the pages in question for Going Rogue. Not a bajillion years ago when the only content was Tina/Maria. Consensus was reached. I'm going to go with "no" on this round of consensus requests.

EDIT: OMG, you're the one that started the previous consensus thread, where it was discussed and determined to use the Primal Earth references for the Praetorian Guard.
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,3287.0.html

[GuyPerfect]

I was against using names like Marauder and Chimera that time too, but back then it didn't matter.

Now, however, in the case of Tyrant, it does matter.

You're disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, and I'm pushing for an update to be made for the sake of correctness. If we can't come to an agreement here, then I will have an executive decision be made one way or the other.

[Aggelakis]

I am NOT disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and you need to take a step back.

[GuyPerfect]

Feel free to elaborate on your stance, then, because what I see is a roadblock to properly maintaining an informational resource.

As it is, you've ignored the rationale and examples that I submitted, due to an opinion that was formed at a time when the details were not even fully relevant. The character is quite simply no longer called Tyrant, and we as a resource should not fail to acknowledge that because of... heck, I dunno... sentimentality?

[eabrace]

Saying that the character is no longer called Tyrant would be incorrect.  Yes, the Emperor Cole facade (currently) dominates his presence in Praetoria, however, there are references to Tyrant in new material as well.

The description of the Olympian Guard, for example:

Only Tyrant and his Praetors are more powerful than the mighty Olympian Guard

The AV Tyrant himself:

The Olympian Guard are the most trusted and elite of Emperor Cole's super soldiers. Cloned from Tyrant's DNA, they have all of his abilities and an unswerving loyalty to the leader of Praetoria.

Emperor Marcus Cole is an NPC civilian.  If we find ourselves up against him in combat, the name Tyrant will be over his head, not Emperor Marcus Cole.

I will be surprised if the plan the devs have in mind for Praetoria stops at level 20 and never expands further.  They put too much into those new zones to have everyone leave at 20 and never have a reason to come back.  Right now, we're seeing more of Emperor Cole than Tyrant, but as the layers are peeled back in higher levels, it's more than likely we'll be seeing more Tyrant than Cole.

[Diellan]

Emperor Marcus Cole is an NPC civilian.  If we find ourselves up against him in combat, the name Tyrant will be over his head, not Emperor Marcus Cole.

We can't be entirely certain of this. Dominatrix had the name Praetor Duncan over her head when I saw her in Tina McYntire's arc the other day, even though she called Dominatrix by the NPC chatter and contacts.

[Sekoia]

Tyrant -- I am in favor of leaving things as they are for now. Let's wait and see what the next issue or two bring, then revisit it again then. At this point, consensus still leans heavily towards using "Tyrant" and I'm not seeing compelling reasons to push against that consensus.

ED -- Enhancement Diversification is the widely-used and accepted term, including by the devs. I don't think the fact that it's referred to as "Enhancement Diminishing Returns" in a single chunk of the new content makes it now the new "official" terminology. They're hardly consistent on these sorts of things. I am in favor of leaving things be as they are for now. If we start seeing the devs widely using EDR instead of ED outside of this single isolated context, or if the game introduces several other contexts that use it, then it would be worth revisiting. But for now, I think changing it to EDR would be unhelpfully confusing and it could very well prove to be a mistake in the long term if this happens to be a quirk and not an official terminology change.

[patteroast]

Whichever name is chosen for these isn't that important, as long as people can find what they're looking for and the Wiki is self-consistent. If there's multiple names for things, mentioning that at the start of the article and using redirects takes care of things.

[Zombie Man]

I'm not for changing Tyrant to Emperor Cole until the Devs do a *retcon* and go back and copy and paste all old references to Tyrant.

Like we did for the discussion of Marauder, though the NPC wears the name "Praetor White" there are still plenty of brand new in-game references to "Marauder." And the same holds true with Emperor Cole... the super 'code name' is still "Tyrant" used by Praetorians and Primals.

And regarding "Enhancement Diminishing Returns"... lol at the Devs for attempting that one.

[taosin]

Re: [previous posts in this thread]

Wow!

I'm of the opinion that the name should be either Tyrant or Emperor Cole depending on the how the section of the game being documented uses it. Clearly both names are active and in use, and I think the wiki should reflect that.

And stick with Enhancement Diversification but by all means add a redirect from Enhancement Diminishing Returns; but look at the ED and Enhancement Diversification pages. My reading of the Alpha Slot page at cityofheroes.com tends to make me think that Enhancement Diminishing Returns is not a proper name, but is the effect of Enhancement Diversification, which is a proper name as per the Isue 6 release notes.

It might be reasonable to add content to the ED page along the lines of "with the release of Issue 19 and the Incarnate system (i.e. Alpha Slot), the effects of Enhancement Diversification are referred to in as enhancement diminishing returns.

Just my $0.02 worth!

[taosin]

Well, in a possibly contentious move I added Enhancement Diminishing Returns

[taosin]

[Sekoia]

I haven't quite decided whether "Enhancement Diminishing Returns" is actually a synonym or the effects. I think it's kind of both, depending on how you use it. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not going to object if someone tweaks it a bit away from being a synonym. I just don't think the EDR article should develop much substance, because the substance should all stay in one place (currently the ED article).

[taosin]

Sekoia wrote:
> I just don't think the EDR article should develop much substance,
> because the substance should all stay in one place (currently the ED article)

Agree 100%

Sekoia wrote:
> I haven't quite decided whether "Enhancement Diminishing Returns"
> is actually a synonym or the effects.

Reading the Issue 6 release notes, I think the term "Enhancement Diminishing Returns" (which afaik is not capitalised in I19 ?) arises from the following:

"Enhancement Diversification.

This is a new system being implemented into City of Villains and City of Heroes (when City of Villains launches) to promote the use of more different types of Enhancements in powers. Using a system of diminishing returns, when slotting the same type of Enhancement into a power, you will begin to see less effect of that Enhancement when the bonus reaches a certain threshold. The effectiveness of Enhancements you are slotting can now be seen in the Enhancement screen." (Issue 6 release notes)

And that is the first use of the term diminishing returns, which becomes specific by pre-pending "Enhancement" to it.

This is where I get the sense that Enhancement Diversification is a system, or set of changes, that altered the fundamental mechnaics of the game. Whereas Enhancement Diminishing Returns is the effect of that system that we have all come to know and love.

[GuyPerfect]

To differentiate between "Enhancement Diversification" as a system and "Enhancement Diminishing Returns" as a part of that system suggests that there are other parts to the system, of which there are none.

If we still want to keep them apart, it could be said that Enhancement Diversification is a movement that was implemented in the form of Enhancement Diminishing Returns. In this case, however, Enhancement Diversification in and of itself does not refer to anything in particular, but people still use the term to describe what is explicitly cited as Enhancement Diminishing Returns.

People toss around phrases like "ED softcap" to describe the diminishing returns specifically. Whatever "Enhancement Diversification" means really boils down to what the devs wanted it to mean... But since they used "diminishing returns" in the descriptions of the Alpha abilities, I get the impression that they don't like the term anymore.