Author Topic: Categorizing tip missions  (Read 6536 times)

Sekoia

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Categorizing tip missions
« on: December 15, 2011, 06:35:52 AM »
We currently have the following category structure for tip missions:

Hero Alignment Missions
- Hero Alignment Missions Level 20-29
- Hero Alignment Missions Level 30-39
- Hero Alignment Missions Level 40-50
Rogue Alignment Missions
Vigilante Alignment Missions
- Vigilante Alignment Missions Level 20-29
- Vigilante Alignment Missions Level 30-39
- Vigilante Alignment Missions Level 40-50
Villain Alignment Missions
Hero Morality Missions
Rogue Morality Missions
Vigilante Morality Missions
Villain Morality Missions

So basically, our original categories were simply "(ALIGNMENT) (TYPE) Missions". Then recently we've started breaking them down in level ranges.

Unfortunately, this missions a very critical distinction. There are actually two sets of Hero alignment tips and two sets of Villain alignment tips. Rogues get a different set of Hero tips than Heroes and Vigilantes. Vigilantes get a different set of Villain tips than Villains and Rogues.

Meanwhile, all of the Hero alignment tips available to Vigilantes are also available to Heroes. Likewise, all Villain alignment tips available to Rogues are also available to Villains.

Morality tips follow a similar pattern. Rogues get different Hero tips than Heroes and Vigilantes; likewise for Vigilantes versus Villains and Rogues.

So I think we need a category structure more like this:

Hero and Vigilante Alignment Missions for Heroes and Vigilantes
- Hero and Vigilante Alignment Missions for Heroes and Vigilantes Level 20-29
- Hero and Vigilante Alignment Missions for Heroes and Vigilantes Level 30-39
- Hero and Vigilante Alignment Missions for Heroes and Vigilantes Level 40-50
Hero Alignment Missions for Rogues
- Hero Alignment Missions for Rogues Level 20-29
- Hero Alignment Missions for Rogues Level 30-39
- Hero Alignment Missions for Rogues Level 40-50
Villain and Rogue Alignment Missions for Villains and Rogues
- Villain and Rogue Alignment Missions for Villains and Rogues Level 20-29
- Villain and Rogue Alignment Missions for Villains and Rogues Level 30-39
- Villain and Rogue Alignment Missions for Villains and Rogues Level 40-50
Villain Alignment Missions for Vigilantes
- Villain Alignment Missions for Vigilantes Level 20-29
- Villain Alignment Missions for Vigilantes Level 30-39
- Villain Alignment Missions for Vigilantes Level 40-50
Hero Morality Missions for Heroes and Vigilantes
Hero Morality Missions for Rogues
Rogue Morality Missions for Villains and Rogues
Vigilante Morality Missions for Heroes and Vigilantes
Villain Morality Missions for Vigilantes
Villain Morality Missions for Villains and Rogues

Unfortunately these are fairly long category names. But I can't think of any way to shorten them while maintaining the very important distinctions they present.

Does anyone object to applying these categories? Or perhaps have a better idea for how to handle it?

eabrace

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2011, 02:03:05 PM »
Too early for me to really think logically, I guess.  I keep running into "wait, but what about..."

Anyway...

If I'm reading correctly, it seems that the category structure you presented for alignment missions is lined up on the alignment the tip is working towards, yes?

Given that blues-side missions are either rogue or hero/vigilante and red-side missions are either vigilante or rogue/villain and tips drop based on your current alignment, what if we structure the categories by the alignment you currently are (or, putting it another way, the alignment you need to be in order to see that tip drop.)

That would give us:
Hero and Vigilante Alignment Missions - blue-side tips that Heroes and Vigilantes can get
Rogue Only Alignment Missions - blue-side tips that only Rogues can get
Villain and Rogue Alignment Missions - red-side tips that Villains and Rogues can get
Vigilante Only Alignment Missions - red-side missions that only Vigilantes can get

Now, the wrench in the works here is that the Morality missions are based on the alignment you're working toward, not your current alignment.  So we're essentially comparing apples and oranges here.  If we expanded the above idea to Morality Missions:
Hero Morality Missions - tips that Heroes can get (includes both confirmation of alignment and switching alignment)
Vigilante Morality Missions - tips that Vigilantes can get (includes both confirmation of alignment and switching alignment)
Villain Morality Missions - tips that Villains can get (includes both confirmation of alignment and switching alignment)
Rogue Morality Missions - tips that Rogues can get (includes both confirmation of alignment and switching alignment)

I realize that doesn't inherently distinguish between the confirmation and switching tips, so maybe this would be better?:
Hero Morality Confirmation Missions - tips that Heroes can get to confirm alignment
Hero Morality Change Missions - tips that Heroes can get to switch alignment
Vigilante Morality Confirmation Missions - tips that Vigilantes can get to confirm alignment
Vigilante Morality Change Missions - tips that Vigilantes can get to switch alignment
Villain Morality Confirmation Missions - tips that Villains can get to confirm alignment
Villain Morality Change Missions - tips that Villains can get to switch alignment
Rogue Morality Confirmation Missions - tips that Rogues can get to confirm alignment
Rogue Morality Change Missions - tips that Rogues can get to switch alignment

Anyway, just typing while I think this morning.  I'll give it some more thought at some point today and see if any light bulbs come on.
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Sekoia

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2011, 04:49:37 AM »
If I'm reading correctly, it seems that the category structure you presented for alignment missions is lined up on the alignment the tip is working towards, yes?

Kinda but not exactly. What I outlined tried to reference both who was getting the tip (current alignment) as well as what kind of tip it is (target alignment(s)).

That would give us:
Hero and Vigilante Alignment Missions - blue-side tips that Heroes and Vigilantes can get
Rogue Only Alignment Missions - blue-side tips that only Rogues can get
Villain and Rogue Alignment Missions - red-side tips that Villains and Rogues can get
Vigilante Only Alignment Missions - red-side missions that only Vigilantes can get

I like that these are much shorter but I feel like they might be confusing. We're calling tips that provide just a "Hero" option "Rogue Only". Once explained it makes sense, but the category title isn't intuitive to me.

I realize that doesn't inherently distinguish between the confirmation and switching tips, so maybe this would be better?:
Hero Morality Confirmation Missions - tips that Heroes can get to confirm alignment
Hero Morality Change Missions - tips that Heroes can get to switch alignment
Vigilante Morality Confirmation Missions - tips that Vigilantes can get to confirm alignment
Vigilante Morality Change Missions - tips that Vigilantes can get to switch alignment
Villain Morality Confirmation Missions - tips that Villains can get to confirm alignment
Villain Morality Change Missions - tips that Villains can get to switch alignment
Rogue Morality Confirmation Missions - tips that Rogues can get to confirm alignment
Rogue Morality Change Missions - tips that Rogues can get to switch alignment

Anyway, just typing while I think this morning.  I'll give it some more thought at some point today and see if any light bulbs come on.

I find your categories are again ambiguous. Is a "Villain Morality Change Mission" a mission that you get to become a villain? Or is it a mission you get as a villain to change to something else? Based on your write-up, it's the latter (I think). But without explanation, it wouldn't be intuitive, I don't think.

The benefit of my obnoxiously-long categories is that they're (hopefully) unambiguous. I'd suggest the following instead of what I originally had:

Hero Morality Missions for Heroes
Hero Morality Missions for Vigilantes
Hero Morality Missions for Rogues
Rogue Morality Missions for Villains
Rogue Morality Missions for Rogues
Vigilante Morality Missions for Heroes
Vigilante Morality Missions for Vigilantes
Villain Morality Missions for Rogues
Villain Morality Missions for Vigilantes
Villain Morality Missions for Villains

Looks like it's actually 10 categories instead of 8. Unless some of those are identical?


I guess we need to decide which is better: short categories names or unambiguous category names.

Aggelakis

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2011, 05:24:23 AM »
Hero Morality Missions for Heroes
Hero Morality Missions for Vigilantes
Hero Morality Missions for Rogues
Rogue Morality Missions for Villains
Rogue Morality Missions for Rogues
Vigilante Morality Missions for Heroes
Vigilante Morality Missions for Vigilantes
Villain Morality Missions for Rogues
Villain Morality Missions for Vigilantes
Villain Morality Missions for Villains
This looks good to me. Something similar can be done for alignment missions too. Since what you get depends on where you are, that can be the breakdown:

Paragon City Alignment Missions for Heroes
-- Paragon City Alignment Missions for Heroes Level 20-29
-- Paragon City Alignment Missions for Heroes Level 30-39
-- Paragon City Alignment Missions for Heroes Level 40-50
Paragon City Alignment Missions for Vigilantes
-- Paragon ... Vigilantes 20-29, ... [repeat for each level range and for each parent category]
Paragon Alignment Missions for Rogues
Rogue Isles Alignment Missions for Villains
Rogue Isles Alignment Missions for Rogues
Rogue Isles Alignment Missions for Vigilantes
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Sekoia

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2011, 06:05:41 AM »
Aha! Using the place names is a clever idea. I could get behind that.

Is there a reason to separate out "Paragon City Alignment Missions for Heroes" and "Paragon City Alignment Missions for Vigilantes"? They're the same set of missions. Why not "Paragon City Alignment Missions for Heroes and Vigilantes"?

Aggelakis

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2011, 07:53:39 AM »
Mmm...I have no idea, I think I just separated them out because the moralities were separated out; they are all the same missions so there's no reason to have distinct categories (since they would be duplicates of each other).
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Sekoia

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2011, 08:00:41 AM »
So, I'm running a level 45 Rogue and just got the Hero morality mission "One Good Spider", which is the same morality mission Heroes get. Are we sure that there are different morality missions for confirming morality versus changing it?

EDIT: I also got "The Unusual Suspect" on the same character, which is also a morality mission heroes get for confirming hero alignment.

taosin

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2011, 08:08:28 AM »
I love the latter part of this thread starting from the Aggelakis post.

I believe maybe we should start a thread and users in on this record their tip/morality missions including their location, level, name, type, name of mission, etc. And after a few weeks assess exactly what is happening with whom?

Also, I can visualise something like (no levels!)
Paragon City Alignment Missions for Heroes
Paragon City Alignment Missions for Vigilantes
Paragon Alignment Missions for Rogues
Rogue Isles Alignment Missions for Villains
Rogue Isles Alignment Missions for Rogues
Rogue Isles Alignment Missions for Vigilantes

As the access, and within all of the misisons have a sorter (category) to select the level ranges?  Sems intuitive to me to work from a list like the above then click one thing to see the level ranges. rather than overly specifying in one category the location, type, hero/villain/etc/, AND level.

just my two cents and in the new year will be able to (once my computer fitout is complete) actually damn well start documenting these again! (slowly getting a whole mass of stuff to help me type reliably for longer - yay!).

eabrace

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2011, 01:54:04 PM »
Aha! Using the place names is a clever idea. I could get behind that.

That's what I was sort of trying to get to yesterday morning, but all I could think of was "Blue Vigilante Missions" and "Red Vigilante Missions" and I didn't think those sounded like good category names.  :)
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Sekoia

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2011, 09:03:28 PM »
As the access, and within all of the misisons have a sorter (category) to select the level ranges?  Sems intuitive to me to work from a list like the above then click one thing to see the level ranges. rather than overly specifying in one category the location, type, hero/villain/etc/, AND level.

You have to specify everything in the category name. You can't have a scheme like this:

Paragon City Alignment Missions for Heroes
- Level 20-29
- Level 30-39
- Level 40-50
Paragon City Alignment Missions for Vigilantes
- Level 20-29
- Level 30-39
- Level 40-50

Because then the "Level 20-29" category would contain all the items from both sets.

The plan is still to nest the leveled categories within general categories, but the full category name must be specific.

I believe maybe we should start a thread and users in on this record their tip/morality missions including their location, level, name, type, name of mission, etc. And after a few weeks assess exactly what is happening with whom?

We could do that but I'm not sure it's necessary. I think we've sorted out the information we need to do categories at this point. It seems pretty clear to me that we'd only need four categories for Morality missions:

Hero Morality Missions
Rogue Morality Missions
Vigilante Morality Missions
Villain Morality Missions

It really does seem that Rogues, Vigilantes, and Heroes all get the same Hero Morality missions, etc. And since there's only one or two per level range, it doesn't make sense to split these out by level.


Here seems to be the set of category names with most consensus:

Paragon City Alignment Missions for Heroes and Vigilantes
Paragon City Alignment Missions for Rogues
Rogue Isles Alignment Missions for Villains and Rogues
Rogue Isles Alignment Missions for Vigilantes
Hero Morality Missions
Rogue Morality Missions
Vigilante Morality Missions
Villain Morality Missions

And then for each of the alignment mission categories, they'd be broken down into subcategories as "... Level 20-29", "... Level 30-39", and "... Level 40-50".

At this point, are there any objections to applying this categorization scheme? If not, I'll sic my bot on it soonish.

Aggelakis

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2011, 10:17:40 PM »
I approve heartily. Categorizing them this way means we could rewrite the Alignment Mission page to include mission lists by level range MUCH easier than prior.
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taosin

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2011, 10:43:31 AM »
Ahh! Thank-you Sek and Agge *lightbulby thing here* esp. for you patience!

Indeed, heartily approve!


Sekoia

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2011, 05:27:13 AM »
I went ahead and applied these changes.

The morality tips already were using the category structure mentioned, so no changes needed there.

As for alignment tips, I updated categories on missions as best as I can. I was surprised to discover how little coverage we have on these. We have no tip missions at all for these brackets:
- Paragon City Alignment Missions for Rogues Level 20-29 and Level 30-39
- Rogue Isles Alignment Missions for Vigilantes Level 20-29, Level 30-39, and Level 40-50

The other Rogue Isles categories are also a bit sparse in places, and some missions didn't even have level information.

Even for missions we have articles for, many of them are lacking in information. Some are just a title and category.

Ah well. At least the category scheme is fixed now. :)

taosin

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Re: Categorizing tip missions
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 05:40:01 AM »
I went ahead and applied these changes.


... I was surprised to discover how little coverage we have on these. We have no tip missions at all for these brackets:
- Paragon City Alignment Missions for Rogues Level 20-29 and Level 30-39
- Rogue Isles Alignment Missions for Vigilantes Level 20-29, Level 30-39, and Level 40-50
.....
The other Rogue Isles categories are also a bit sparse in places, and some missions didn't even have level information.
.....
Even for missions we have articles for, many of them are lacking in information. Some are just a title and category.

Thanks Sek! Awesome.

Keenly aware of the lack. I've not been able to do many articles this last six months (the routine of capture text, parse it, write up), and had been adding some tip misisons etc. I will be able to return to these I hope fromt he latter part of January (yay!) as am finally getting the resources together to be able to keyboard accurately for hours at a time.

Same with many TF/SF, it seems each of even old ones done this last two minths seem to have bits missing at the beginning. For the life of me cannot work out if the devs updated these discretely at some point or if I am going mad.

Oh an a lot of new content, of course! *rubs hands in glee*

But all that from the latter part of january and on, for me.