Author Topic: Paragon market pricing on pages  (Read 10632 times)

taosin

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Paragon market pricing on pages
« on: January 19, 2012, 12:22:12 PM »
A thought occurred to me, browsing through the wiki. Many pages now include pricing of things from the paragon market. I was wondering: should this be the norm?

I can see it making sense for pages which are in essence full of tables showing pricing, but not for many other pages.

Why? Once on the page, it's quite possible that if NCsoft change the pricing, we'd possibly never get back to that page, and it becomes inaccurate. In addition, if NCsoft ever made changes we'd likely not pick them all up, and even if we did there;'s the chance of all of a sudden losses of pages needing to be updated.

Does it make more sense to adopt a protocol or policy along these lines:
* Centralise pricing to as few pages as possible
* Pages that reference items at the market should either direct readers to one of the core pages, and/or direct them to the market ingame.

Certainly, I'd prefer to see some disclaimer bought in on all pages that quote prices that "prices were correct at time of editing and are subject to change without notice, check the market in-game" or similar.

Please note this is what I consider a long-view thing. It may not be important now, but in a year, or two, I am moderately sure NCsoft could well choose to 'tune' pricing on a large scale, depending on custom and market share, and so on. I'd rather not second guess them!

Is there a more elegant solution to be had? I guess another way of putting it: can we be sure we will be able to keep all the quoted prices in the wiki in sync with the market, without resorting to mind-numbingly manual edits should there be major variations?

just for discussion!

Sekoia

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2012, 02:51:33 PM »
I have the same opinion on this that I have on many other widespread fact bits on the wiki: when a piece of information changes for an item, we should only need to update it in one place. If there's more than one place to update it, it's almost guaranteed that they won't all get updated. This is why, for example, we have {{BadgeBox}} set up to automatically populate itself with badges' descriptions and icons -- because if they change, nobody's going to go through and verify that all those pages actually get updated. It's why we have DPL templates on so many Invention and Incarnate related pages -- so that when things change, they automatically update when we change it in that one place.

So I see three options here.

Option 1 is what Taosin suggests: we centralize the pricing to a single page or set of pages.

Option 2 is more like what we've done elsewhere: each item's price goes on its article page and only on its article page. Anyplace else that needs to reference it, uses DPL-based templates to query it out.

Option 3 is simple: we get rid of pricing information entirely.

However, any situation that has prices for a single item on multiple pages is completely untenable and must be stopped.

If it were just me, I'd go with option 3. I don't see a need for pricing information to be on the wiki. I feel that sometimes we are a bit too exhaustive in what we include. But, that's just me. I know other people find such information invaluable, so I won't push for that option at all unless, surprisingly, others feel the same.

Since 3 isn't all that viable, I'm more inclined towards 1. If we do need to have pricing information on the wiki, we might as well restrict it to a single page that lists everything. That centralizes it for easy updating. It also makes it easier to look up pricing; at worst, you'll have to go from an item page to the listing page, but if you're looking up multiple items you won't have to do that repeatedly.

Option 2 would be a royal pain. In other places we've done this, such as badges, the invention system, and the incarnate system, all items to be handled were of fairly consistent type. Not so with the Paragon Market. It includes badges, the incarnate system, and everything else. So we would need to come up with a template that could work across a wide range of very different kinds of articles. Worse, we're not going to want separate articles for things like "Character Slot x1", "Character Slot x2", and "Character Slot x5", or worse, for each separate instance of things like "Recipe Inv Increase (x of 10)". That means that we'd have to cope with having multiple listings/prices on a given article, which means the DPL queries would have to be a lot more complex. Is it possible to make option 2 work? Probably, but I'm hard pressed to see it as being worth the effort it would take to make happen.

So, I think Taosin's proposal is the most reasonable and maintainable course of action for this kind of information.

GuyPerfect

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2012, 07:39:40 PM »
A bit of a tangent here, but we should have some kind of auto-math calculator for actual monetary price for items. If the price per Paragon Point ever changes, all the listings will be incorrect.

Sekoia

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2012, 08:20:03 PM »
A bit of a tangent here, but we should have some kind of auto-math calculator for actual monetary price for items. If the price per Paragon Point ever changes, all the listings will be incorrect.

Good point. I drafted up a pair of templates for this:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/User:Sekoia/Sandbox/PPUSD
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/User:Sekoia/Sandbox/Decimal (EDIT: Superceded by http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Template:Decimals)

The first takes a number of Paragon Points and returned the value in USD (assuming 80 PP per USD). The second is a support template needed by the first. I put them in my personal namespace for now as proof of concept, until we figure out how to best use them.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 07:50:05 AM by Sekoia »

eabrace

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 08:22:06 PM »
A bit of a tangent here, but we should have some kind of auto-math calculator for actual monetary price for items. If the price per Paragon Point ever changes, all the listings will be incorrect.

I don't think we should be calculating actual cash value if we're documenting the point cost.  Put a table in the Paragon Market article that gives a rough idea of how much money certain amounts of points equate to (10 points = $X, 25 points = $X, 50 points...), maybe, but not on a per-item basis.
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Sekoia

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2012, 08:29:09 PM »
Actually, everything at Paragon Market gives prices in PP, USD, EUR, and GBP. So if we do price them out, we'd need three templates.

But I agree with Eabrace, we probably shouldn't price them out. You get either 400 or 550 "for free" as part of a VIP subscription. If you buy them, you can get them at rates of 80, 88, 92, or 96 points per USD, depending on how many you buy at a time. So while "80 points per USD" is the official vanilla rate, in practice it doesn't really work that way.

In any case, Paragon Points has the kind of table I think Eabrace is describing.

eabrace

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2012, 08:34:06 PM »
Yeah, that's pretty much the sort of table I was thinking of.  Maybe add one that breaks down various common costs of items in the market at the base rate of 80 points per dollar for people who are lazy about doing math, but I think the existing table would suffice.

I'll put a short little table together in my user space to demonstrate what I had in mind.
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Aggelakis

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2012, 08:38:30 PM »
Note: The Paragon Market's "dollar" prices are all based off of the PP value, via template, so all that would need to change is the template's pp to USD, pp to Euro and pp to GBP value would be. Wouldn't need to do anything else.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 08:44:02 PM by Aggelakis »
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eabrace

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2012, 08:46:41 PM »
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Sekoia

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2012, 08:57:29 PM »
Note: The Paragon Market's "dollar" prices are all based off of the PP value, via template, so all that would need to change is the template's pp to USD, pp to Euro and pp to GBP value would be. Wouldn't need to do anything else.

Oo! Glad to see this was done.

Unfortunately, much of the page doesn't use the template you're referencing.

That rough idea I mentioned.

Works for me. :)


We kinda went down a tangent with the currency issue, any more comments pertaining to the original issue raised in the thread?

taosin

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2012, 11:38:08 PM »
Sekoia: Option 1 is what Taosin suggests: we centralize the pricing to a single page or set of pages.
Option 2 is more like what we've done elsewhere: each item's price goes on its article page and only on its article page. Anyplace else that needs to reference it, uses DPL-based templates to query it out.
Option 3 is simple: we get rid of pricing information entirely.


Sek matches my views closely.

I am perfectly comfortable with option 3. As the pricing is by definition always available to any player in game, and there is not way to truly automate pricing from the market to the wiki... Also: the market is going to get bigger and then bigger (and possibly more complex) over time.
Failing that option one: one page that simply is the pricing, in the way the market is arranged in game. Fairly dense as well (low row height).

My preference is an approximate value set of lines (a few) for the common price points: 40 pp, 100 pp, 400pp, 800pp etc.

taosin

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2012, 11:46:23 PM »
Out of curiousity:

We have paragonwiki.com/wiki/Paragon_Market

Would a suitable pricing page, if the wiki went that way, be:

paragonwiki.com/wiki/Paragon_Market/Pricing 

?


Aggelakis

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2012, 05:58:32 AM »
Uh, why would you put the pricing anywhere but on the market page itself? Out of curiosity.
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Sekoia

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2012, 07:15:36 AM »
Uh, why would you put the pricing anywhere but on the market page itself? Out of curiosity.

I would expect "Paragon Market" to be an article about the Paragon Market. I wouldn't expect it to be a catalog of all the items on the Paragon Market. I almost have to ask "Why would we put the pricing there?". We don't have a list of all purchasable items at any of the comparable articles for any of the in-game currency systems (that I am aware of).

At the moment, if you were to remove pricing information from the article you'd end up with basically just the overview. So I can see why one might want to keep it there. Though I wonder if all the pricing information isn't actually discouraging the addition of other information on the page. (Then again, maybe there's not much else to say.)

On the other hand, it'd be nice if we could consolidate all pricing data into one page. At the moment, pricing is split into Paragon Market and Store-Bought Enhancements. The WIP comment at Paragon Market suggests that costumes should also get split into a third page. I would imagine the reason for splitting is to keep the Paragon Market article from getting too cluttered. However, I feel like the data should either all be there or all be elsewhere.

Perhaps it would make sense to have a sub-page for each section of the Market:

Paragon Market/Account Services
Paragon Market/Content
Paragon Market/Character
Paragon Market/Crafting / Gear
Paragon Market/Costumes
Paragon Market/Powers
Paragon Market/Buffs & Boosts

That would get the pricing off of the main article and partition it into manageable chunks. It'd also keep it centralized, preventing it from getting split up into distant satellite articles like the SBEs are currently.

Aggelakis

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2012, 08:30:52 AM »


I think I am going to advocate fixed-width columns... This looks really bad...
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Sekoia

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2012, 09:41:46 AM »
I think I am going to advocate fixed-width columns... This looks really bad...

What browser are you viewing on? That doesn't look anything remotely like what I'm seeing in Chrome or MSIE. In both, the columns all line up very nicely.

Implementation wise, it is using fixed-width columns.


I went ahead and made some PP conversion templates:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Template:PP2USD
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Template:PP2EUR
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Template:PP2GBP
And I updated PMarket Row to use them. This makes those conversions available for other uses such as the kind of table Eabrace made.

taosin

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2012, 11:59:33 AM »
Agge: Uh, why would you put the pricing anywhere but on the market page itself? Out of curiosity.

I guess different ways of looking at it. Paragon Market describes it, how to operate it, how to use the Wish List, and orients the reader. A static page. Pricing is that, and gets right down to it. Both work, if the content of paragon market page was increased to fully describe it (and it does not at this time do that, IMHO), to me that is a page on it's own. One page doing one thing...

Not too hung up on it. Am also thinking down the track NCsoft may improve some of the extremely annoying features/limitations  we see in PM UI Mk I, and come out with a Gen II Mkt UI.


Sek: At the moment, if you were to remove pricing information from the article you'd end up with basically just the overview. So I can see why one might want to keep it there. Though I wonder if all the pricing information isn't actually discouraging the addition of other information on the page. (Then again, maybe there's not much else to say.)

Agree, also my point above, sans pricing, the information on that page is in no way complete yet.

Sek: I would expect "Paragon Market" to be an article about the Paragon Market. I wouldn't expect it to be a catalog of all the items on the Paragon Market.

Agree absolutely.

Sek That would get the pricing off of the main article and partition it into manageable chunks. It'd also keep it centralized, preventing it from getting split up into distant satellite articles like the SBEs are currently.

Here to me "manageable Chunks" is the key word, and a strong ongoing reinforced (and moderated) central consistency with whatever outcome the wiki arrives at.

Agge: I think I am going to advocate fixed-width columns... This looks really bad...

Oh, it does. Bear in mind that the loss of information about what is being purchased as one progresses through the in-game Paragon Market system may well be something NCsoft address, which would cause some changes. It has to be something that is frustrating a l;ot of punters.

Sek: What browser are you viewing on? That doesn't look anything remotely like what I'm seeing in Chrome or MSIE. In both, the columns all line up very nicely.

MSIE v9.08112.16421 update version 9.0.4 32 bit shows all columns lining up perfectly, other than System Unlocks in which the table is narrower than the others on the page.

MSIE v9.08112.16421 update version 9.0.4 32 bit, same.

Firefox 9.0.1 shows columns not lining up, irrespective of browser page width. Info and Width columns differ. http://validator.w3.org is telling me nothing except a lot of the attributes used on the page are obsolete, I assume this is known and normal.

Use of currency symbols: Can I ask that currency symbols be dropped from the table other than in the header? (or to consider this?) Having the currency symbol in each cell is redundant, removing them reduces visual clutter too.





Sekoia

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2012, 03:12:57 PM »
Looks like using "em" to specify a column width is non-standard for HTML. Chrome and MSIE9 apparently permit it anyway but I guess maybe FireFox does not. I'll download Firefox and see if I can't use CSS to make it work on that platform.

EDIT: I have it working on Firefox now. I think Chrome and MSIE9 were ignoring em and treating the values as pixels. Oops.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 03:24:40 PM by Sekoia »

Sekoia

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2012, 03:31:41 PM »
Use of currency symbols: Can I ask that currency symbols be dropped from the table other than in the header? (or to consider this?) Having the currency symbol in each cell is redundant, removing them reduces visual clutter too.

I would not object to that.

taosin

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Re: Paragon market pricing on pages
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2012, 06:22:50 AM »