Author Topic: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations  (Read 7641 times)

Sekoia

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Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« on: January 24, 2012, 10:41:24 PM »
Historically, we had organized everything on the basis of Hero vs. Villain. Then when Praetorians came along, we organized them as a sort of third grouping along the same lines.

Now that alignment isn't fixed, that system is blown out of the water and our categories are significantly less useful. For example, we still organize badges on the basis of Hero versus Villain. But most badges are available to both now, and show up in both categories. So those two categories are nearly worthless.

We recently redid how tips are organized and, instead of organizing based on Hero vs Villain, we organized them based on where you can get the tip mission: Paragon City or the Rogue Isles. I think this approach makes vastly more sense for most of our content. For example, consider Exploration badges. All exploration badges are available to all characters, provided you do that right alignment hopping. However, the following categories would organize the badges more along the lines of the original divisions and I think would be far more useful: Paragon City Exploration Badges, Rogue Isles Exploration Badges, Praetoria Exploration Badges, Co-op Zone Exploration Badges.

Some badges are only available based on your dimension of origin. These I suggest we organize on that basis: Primal Achievement Badges versus Praetorian Achievement Badges.

One small hiccup: both place and dimension use the same word for Praetoria. I differentiated above using "Praetoria" versus "Praetorian" but that's not ideal. Perhaps for the dimension, we should use names like "Primal Origin Achievement Badges" versus "Praetorian Origin Achievement Badges"?

Badges and Missions are the most obvious things that come to mind for these kind of divisions, but perhaps there are other sorts of things that would benefit from the same re-categorization.

Obviously these are some massive changes I'm talking about, so I wanted to broach the topic for discussion before even thinking about trying to make it happen.

Blondeshell

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2012, 04:19:38 AM »
I think there is value in leaving badge categories separated by Hero/Villain/Praetorian.

Despite the fact that Heroes and Villains essentially have access to the same badges, I've made a point to keep the category pages pared down to what is accessible to characters that have not made the switch to the opposite alignment.  I think this is helpful for F2P and Premium players who haven't purchased Going Rogue, as well as VIP players who are following a "pure" concept, in knowing what badges are possible to earn.  It's also the only public source I'm aware of that's a quick reference for that information in that format.  If people want to see the entire list of badges in a given category, they can check CIT or Badge-Hunter for that info.

Aggelakis

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2012, 04:26:57 AM »
I think there is value in leaving badge categories separated by Hero/Villain/Praetorian.

Despite the fact that Heroes and Villains essentially have access to the same badges, I've made a point to keep the category pages pared down to what is accessible to characters that have not made the switch to the opposite alignment.  I think this is helpful for F2P and Premium players who haven't purchased Going Rogue, as well as VIP players who are following a "pure" concept, in knowing what badges are possible to earn.  It's also the only public source I'm aware of that's a quick reference for that information in that format.  If people want to see the entire list of badges in a given category, they can check CIT or Badge-Hunter for that info.
...errr, what Sekoia is suggesting is basically:

Hero Exploration Badges Paragon City Exploration Badges
Villain Exploration Badges Rogue Isles Exploration Badges
Praetorian Exploration Badges (since "Praetoria" is where they're found, no need to change it)
...etc...

...these are essentially exactly the same things. A pure hero can only get the badges that are in Paragon City, so why would Paragon City Exploration Badges be any different than Hero Exploration Badges?
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taosin

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2012, 04:59:53 AM »
To me the crux is in Sek's post "we organized them based on where you can get the tip mission: Paragon City or the Rogue Isles. I think this approach makes vastly more sense for most of our content."

Heartily agree. And Blondeshell, yep, point will made, however Agge's classification into such as Paragon City, Rogue isle and Praetorian exploration seems to answer that. Given its clear, it'll stand up well for non-VIP players and pure players too.

Questions though:
* Co-op zones: Cimerora, 122 Dark Astoria (Paragon City but still...), and the PvP zones (Bloody Bay, Siren's call, etc.). And the shadow shards, though yes the latter is Paragon City linked not Isles-linked.

And yes, discussion! No need to generate a huge overhead daunting task, great to have a clear guideline to the changes get folded in over time.

In another forum (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,4501.0.html) I broached issues with the wiki's persistent ingrained use of hero/Villain when not appropriate, outcome then was 'change as it goes', perhaps this needs to be folded in here as well as Sek mentioned "for most of our content".

At heart that was the same topic as in this thread, I feel.

Am starting to revise as I go, noted by Sek (damn I must do this!)
Use the {{wip}} template and provide a note:
{{wip|date={{subst:Today}}|note=Need to update to remove hero/villain distinction}}
Then it will show up on the table at Category:Work in Progress, which displays whatever note you included. That should make it easier to spot them later.

eabrace

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2012, 05:07:36 AM »
I could probably get behind changing the categories in most cases.

Hero Contacts -> Paragon City Contacts
Hero Day Job Badges -> Paragon City Day Job Badges

Some categories, however, will need a bit more tweaking.

Hero Archvillain Image -> Paragon City Archvillain Images?
Hero City Zones -> Paragon City City Zones?  (while accurate, that looks awkward)
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taosin

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2012, 05:14:33 AM »
ea: Hero City Zones -> Paragon City City Zones?  (while accurate, that looks awkward)

Agree, the norm (I think, suggestion!) would be to use "Paragon City Zones", as a rule-breaker that makes sense.


Blondeshell

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2012, 06:24:07 PM »
...errr, what Sekoia is suggesting is basically:

Hero Exploration Badges Paragon City Exploration Badges
Villain Exploration Badges Rogue Isles Exploration Badges
Praetorian Exploration Badges (since "Praetoria" is where they're found, no need to change it)
...etc...

...these are essentially exactly the same things. A pure hero can only get the badges that are in Paragon City, so why would Paragon City Exploration Badges be any different than Hero Exploration Badges?

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. I guess I read a little too deeply into the OP.  :-[

Whatever we do on the badges, though, should be kept consistent.  I think having some categories be city-oriented (Paragon City/Rogue Isles) and others be dimension-oriented (Primal) will make it confusing for people to remember what's what.  For example, achievement badges would still be ideally separated by place rather than dimension because the two lists are not 100% the same.

RE: Co-op and PvP Zones, I would still include them on all three lists like they are now since they are accessible to everyone.  Shadow Shard badges should also stay in Paragon City's list.

Sekoia

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2012, 07:24:34 PM »
Well, there's two things to consider here.

Categories, like Category:Hero Exploration Badges

And articles, like Hero Exploration Badges

Top Dog is categorized in both Hero and Villain Exploration Badges categories. It's located on the Hero Exploration Badges article but it's not located in the Villain Exploration Badges article. Under my proposed scheme, Top Dog would only go into Paragon City Exploration Badges.

With respect to Co-op zone badges, I would suggest they they only go into a single Co-op category. However, I feel less strongly about the articles; perhaps it would make sense to include such badges on all lists.

I personally find that including a badge in all the places makes such lists less useful for me, though. It'd help if the article clearly separated what was only available in Paragon City versus what was available in a Co-op zone. But in the past I think they all just get blended together.

I somewhat disagree with Blondeshell regarding dimensions. If you're a Praetorian-origin character who has left Praetorian and is now in Paragon City, which category to do you look in? "Paragon City Achievement Badges" or "Praetorian Achievement Badges"? I can see that going 50/50 either way. The fact is that the badges themselves are not consistently city-oriented, so we can't be either. Of course, the Achievement badges are a real mess because some are separately solely on dimension lines (ie damage badges) while others are separated on city lines (ie Safeguard badges), so we may end up needing a dual-tiered category naming scheme of some sort (I'll think on it and suggest something more concrete for consideration later). I think that this is another place where Category versus Article would be helpful. Our categories may end up needing to be on the more complicated and possibly even confusing side. The articles, however, can be made more straightforward.

The way I see it: Articles are for the more "novice" users while Categories are for the more "advanced" users. Categories will not show up on normal searches, Articles do. Both are linked to from all relevant articles, but most people are going to go for the stuff under "See Also" rather than the less-obvious category links at the bottom.

As for Taosin's point that some of the "Paragon City" related items aren't actually in Paragon City -- we can clarify that on the category page. "These exploration badges are available to characters based in Paragon City" or some such. I don't think we're going to find a perfect naming scheme, and I don't claim this one is; I just think it's an improvement over the current ones for many items.

As for "Paragon City City Zones", that's awkward for a title yes. I wouldn't want an article named that, but I wouldn't be that opposed to having a category named that. "Paragon City Zones" doesn't work so well because I would expect us to have a "Paragon City Zones" that would include "Paragon City City Zones", "Paragon City Hazard Zones", and "Paragon City Trial Zones".

Regarding "Hero Archvillain Images", the name already sounds confusing. "Hero Archvillain" is rather an oxymoron. :) I find "Paragon City Archvillain Images" to be a much better name than "Hero Archvillain Images", even if it's still not perfect. Perhaps "Archvillains in Paragon City"/"Archvillains in the Rogue Isles" could work. Or we could just fold the two categories into "Archvillain Images" (which also exists, but isn't the parent of the other two).

(Apologies if anything doesn't make sense... I'm fighting off a sinus infection and am a bit out of it.)

eabrace

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2012, 09:31:04 PM »
Top Dog is categorized in both Hero and Villain Exploration Badges categories. It's located on the Hero Exploration Badges article but it's not located in the Villain Exploration Badges article. Under my proposed scheme, Top Dog would only go into Paragon City Exploration Badges.

It seems for this particular example that we would ideally want to classify the badge under Category:Paragon City Exploration Badges and include it in the article for Paragon City Exploration Badges.  So, I'd agree on that.

Quote
With respect to Co-op zone badges, I would suggest they they only go into a single Co-op category. However, I feel less strongly about the articles; perhaps it would make sense to include such badges on all lists.

So, using the Ace badge as an example:  The Ace badge article would be listed under Category:Co-Op Exploration Badges and potentially only on a Co-Op Exploration Badges article or on both the Paragon City Exploration Badges and Rogue Isles Exploration Badges article, correct?  I think it would probably be easier on people looking up the badges they have available to them (especially if we're DPLing the badges into the articles) to put both side-specific and shared badges in each side-specific article.  In other words, Ace would appear in both the Paragon City Exploration Badges article and the Rogue Isles Exploration Badges article.

Another thought occurs to me, however.  How will we address badges that change names based on alignment?  Purifier, for example, is the Heroic name of an exploration badge located in Skyway City, so it fits very conveniently under Paragon City Exploration Badges (both category and article.)  The Defiler badge name, on the other hand, is still located in Paragon City, but only appears for Villains and Rogues.  It seems like it would be misleading to categorize the badge under Rogue Isles Exploration Badges due to the badge marker's physical location, but would be equally misleading to categorize the badge under Paragon City Exploration Badges if we pull badges into the Paragon City and Rogue Isles Exploration Badges articles using DPL.

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I personally find that including a badge in all the places makes such lists less useful for me, though. It'd help if the article clearly separated what was only available in Paragon City versus what was available in a Co-op zone. But in the past I think they all just get blended together.
While I see what you're saying there, I'm considering this from the viewpoint of a new player who simply wants to see what badges are available without having to look at two different articles.

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I somewhat disagree with Blondeshell regarding dimensions. If you're a Praetorian-origin character who has left Praetorian and is now in Paragon City, which category to do you look in? "Paragon City Achievement Badges" or "Praetorian Achievement Badges"? I can see that going 50/50 either way. The fact is that the badges themselves are not consistently city-oriented, so we can't be either. Of course, the Achievement badges are a real mess because some are separately solely on dimension lines (ie damage badges) while others are separated on city lines (ie Safeguard badges), so we may end up needing a dual-tiered category naming scheme of some sort (I'll think on it and suggest something more concrete for consideration later). I think that this is another place where Category versus Article would be helpful. Our categories may end up needing to be on the more complicated and possibly even confusing side. The articles, however, can be made more straightforward.

Yes, the Praetorian- and Primal-specific badges are going to get a bit complicated.  Moreso considering the Primal-specific badges typically have different names based on alignment, too.  Not sure I see a simple solution here off the top of my head.

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The way I see it: Articles are for the more "novice" users while Categories are for the more "advanced" users. Categories will not show up on normal searches, Articles do. Both are linked to from all relevant articles, but most people are going to go for the stuff under "See Also" rather than the less-obvious category links at the bottom.

I also agree here.  That's exactly why I think Co-Op Exploration badges should probably be categorized as such (and I'd say the same for PvP Exploration Badges as well) but included on the Paragon City or Rogue Isles articles rather than in their own separate articles.

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As for "Paragon City City Zones", that's awkward for a title yes. I wouldn't want an article named that, but I wouldn't be that opposed to having a category named that. "Paragon City Zones" doesn't work so well because I would expect us to have a "Paragon City Zones" that would include "Paragon City City Zones", "Paragon City Hazard Zones", and "Paragon City Trial Zones".
Which is why I said that while "Paragon City City Zones" was awkward, it was technically correct.  :)

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Regarding "Hero Archvillain Images", the name already sounds confusing. "Hero Archvillain" is rather an oxymoron. :) I find "Paragon City Archvillain Images" to be a much better name than "Hero Archvillain Images", even if it's still not perfect. Perhaps "Archvillains in Paragon City"/"Archvillains in the Rogue Isles" could work. Or we could just fold the two categories into "Archvillain Images" (which also exists, but isn't the parent of the other two).
I'd be in favor of putting any image of any NPC that appears with the rank of Archvillain in the Archvillain Images category - regardless of whether they appear in Hero or Villain missions.

Likewise for anything that appears with the rank of Hero being placed in a Hero Images category.

And I'm distracted trying to sort out incompatibilities between ICC compiler versions related to the GCC libraries they are inheriting from today, so there's a good chance some of what I wrote might be a bit muddled, incoherent, or riddled with typos too.  :D
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Sekoia

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2012, 02:00:23 AM »
So, using the Ace badge as an example:  The Ace badge article would be listed under Category:Co-Op Exploration Badges and potentially only on a Co-Op Exploration Badges article or on both the Paragon City Exploration Badges and Rogue Isles Exploration Badges article, correct?  I think it would probably be easier on people looking up the badges they have available to them (especially if we're DPLing the badges into the articles) to put both side-specific and shared badges in each side-specific article.  In other words, Ace would appear in both the Paragon City Exploration Badges article and the Rogue Isles Exploration Badges article.

I agree, I think: Ace would go in Category:Co-op Exploration Badges. It would then go in both the articles Paragon City Exploration Badges and Rogue Isles Exploration Badges.

Another thought occurs to me, however.  How will we address badges that change names based on alignment?  Purifier, for example, is the Heroic name of an exploration badge located in Skyway City, so it fits very conveniently under Paragon City Exploration Badges (both category and article.)  The Defiler badge name, on the other hand, is still located in Paragon City, but only appears for Villains and Rogues.  It seems like it would be misleading to categorize the badge under Rogue Isles Exploration Badges due to the badge marker's physical location, but would be equally misleading to categorize the badge under Paragon City Exploration Badges if we pull badges into the Paragon City and Rogue Isles Exploration Badges articles using DPL.

I would put both Purifier and Defiler in Category:Paragon City Exploration Badges. I would then put both in the article Paragon City Exploration Badges, but would list them next to each other in two columns like we often do, hero vs villain names.

We could also create articles like "Hero and Vigilante Exploration Badges" and "Villain and Rogue Exploration Badges" that list all badges available to each of those alignments, organized by place, using the alignment-appropriate names. There's no reason we can't present this information organized in multiple ways.

While I see what you're saying there, I'm considering this from the viewpoint of a new player who simply wants to see what badges are available without having to look at two different articles.

Well, the wiki shouldn't exclusively cater to new players at the expense of veterans. But fortunately, we can have it both ways using the article versus category distinction I referenced elsewhere (which it sounds like you agree on).

I'd be in favor of putting any image of any NPC that appears with the rank of Archvillain in the Archvillain Images category - regardless of whether they appear in Hero or Villain missions.

Likewise for anything that appears with the rank of Hero being placed in a Hero Images category.
Works for me.  8)


Eabrace, you referenced DPL a few times. I'm not sure it'll be plausible to DPL these articles and keep them like they're currently organized. We just don't have the appropriate information in place for it in a way that DPL can access it, and I think trying to make it happen that way may be quite a task.

For example, the Tough Badge is listed on Hero Achievement Badges under the heading "Damage Badges". The other badges in that section are in a specific order. The article for Tough Badge doesn't state that the sub-type is "Damage Badges", nor does it give any sense for how to order it with respect to the other Damage Badges. It also doesn't give us its in-game sequential position order.

It might be possible to put all the necessary info bits into templates and get things set up in a DPL friendly fashion but it'd be a huge undertaking, and I'm not sure it'd be worth it. Regardless, I'd say that anything DPL for badges should be considered a separate conversation for now (preferably done in another thread as to not derail this one :) ).

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 02:53:51 AM »
Another thought occurs to me, however.  How will we address badges that change names based on alignment?  Purifier, for example, is the Heroic name of an exploration badge located in Skyway City, so it fits very conveniently under Paragon City Exploration Badges (both category and article.)  The Defiler badge name, on the other hand, is still located in Paragon City, but only appears for Villains and Rogues.  It seems like it would be misleading to categorize the badge under Rogue Isles Exploration Badges due to the badge marker's physical location, but would be equally misleading to categorize the badge under Paragon City Exploration Badges if we pull badges into the Paragon City and Rogue Isles Exploration Badges articles using DPL.

And you guys thought I was crazy when I wanted to combine badges that are physically the same badge into a single article. :)

(still don't have a bulletproof way to decide what to name the article though)

eabrace

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 02:59:41 AM »
Well, the wiki shouldn't exclusively cater to new players at the expense of veterans. But fortunately, we can have it both ways using the article versus category distinction I referenced elsewhere (which it sounds like you agree on).
Yup.  I agree.  I'm just jumping ahead to "the article would be the more likely destination for the newbies."

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Eabrace, you referenced DPL a few times. I'm not sure it'll be plausible to DPL these articles and keep them like they're currently organized. We just don't have the appropriate information in place for it in a way that DPL can access it, and I think trying to make it happen that way may be quite a task.
That's pretty much the same conclusion I was coming to, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to keep the possibility in mind in the event that someone else had an epiphany regarding some elegant method for organization.
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Sekoia

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 07:23:03 AM »
It just occurred to me that we don't need to necessarily replace the Hero/Villain categories. We can have multiple systems of categorization running in parallel.

For Achievement badges, it looks like we have the following types of badges:

- Milestone badges (for X damage, X healing, X time mezzed, etc.) for Primal origin
- Milestone badges (for X damage, X healing, X time mezzed, etc.) for Praetorian origin
- Safeguard badges available in Paragon City
- Mayhem badges available in Rogue Isles
- Alignment related badges (ie Gallant, Come Full Circle)
- TF/Trial related badges available in Paragon City (ie Master of Statesman's TF)
- TF/Trial related badges available in Rogue Isles (ie Master of Lord Recluse's TF)
- TF/Trial related badges available via Co-op zones (ie Master of Lady Grey's TF, Cadaver Counter from Death from Below)
- Incarnate Trial related badges
- Miscellaneous stuff (see here and here)

That doesn't lend itself at all to anything resembling clean categorization. It also doesn't lend itself to clean articles. For instance, the Hero Achievement Badges article says "Badges listed on this page are just those that are earnable by Heroes or Vigilantes who have not participated in any content available to Villains.". Yet it includes Come Full Circle (which requires you to transition from Hero to Villain and back to Hero again) and Grass Is Meaner (which requires a vigilante to visit the Rogue Isles). I'd say both of those require you to participate in villain content, at least minimally. Yet, they wouldn't belong on the villain list either.

I think we'll have to do away with any sense of being able to list each badge in exactly one category.

I also think we should just do groupings as they make sense. For instance, for Achievement badges we might have:

Praetorian Achievement Badges
Primal Milestone Achievement Badges
Praetorian Milestone Achievement Badges
Alignment System Achievement Badges
Paragon City Mission Achievement Badges  (where Mission includes TFs and Trials)
Rogue Isles Mission Achievement Badges
Co-op Mission Achievement Badges  (excluding Incarnate-related badges)
Incarnate Trial Achievement Badges

Plus possibly other categories. We could also have articles such as:

Achievement Badges Available to Pure Heroes  (ie those you can earn sans the alignment system)
Achievement Badges Available to Pure Villains
Achievement Badges Available to Primal Earth Characters  (regardless of current alignment)
Achievement Badges Available to Praetorian Earth Characters
Achievement Badges Available to Heroes and Vigilantes  (including those you can earn with the alignment system)
Achievement Badges Available to Villains and Rogues

Plus possibly other articles as well.

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Re: Replacing Hero/Villain/Praetorian categorizations
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2012, 04:29:51 PM »
[[Category:Achievement Badges]] [[Category:Rogue Isles Badges]] [[Category:Pure Villain Badges]]