Author Topic: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles  (Read 29177 times)

Sekoia

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2012, 08:56:12 AM »
One thing though... with this movement to more namespaces, can we justify not making a Salvage namespace?

All salvage items are currently named "ITEM NAME Salvage". None of the items in-game are named "blah blah Salvage". So we're already tweaking the item names to give them a more identifiable pattern.

If we use namespaces for Recipes and Enhancements, then I'm in favor of using namespaces for Salvage as well.

Otherwise, we should probably either rename all of them from "ITEM NAME Salvage" to "ITEM NAME" -or- to "ITEM NAME (Salvage)".

And then that also raises the question... should we do the same with Badges? There is a badge "Apex". There is not a badge "Apex Badge". It should be "Apex (Badge)". Or it could be "Badge:Apex".

Yes, this could be a slippery slope we're starting to slide down, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't slide down it.

Also... are we in favor of making articles for TOs, DOs, etc., etc.?

Personally, I am in favor of doing so. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't.

Thirty-Seven

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2012, 09:49:03 AM »
Definitely a slippery slope... we will have to see just how far we slide down it.

I am beginning work on a prototype page: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/User:Thirty7/Sandbox/Hecatomb  feel free to do whatever to it.  At the moment, i am avoiding all templates I can to avoid categories an any IO baggage.

Thirty-Seven

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2012, 10:00:05 AM »
So. Many. Wrinkles!!!!!

Also, ther is no article on just "Crafting" so far as i can tell... or if there is, that search doesn't redirect there.

Codewalker

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2012, 11:43:14 AM »
Well, is there a disadvantage to namespacing? Patterns like X Salvage and X Badge are effectively a poor man's namespace as it is - is there any benefit to not formalizing it?

eabrace

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2012, 12:43:23 PM »
So. Many. Wrinkles!!!!!
Oh yes.

Side note:  Please do not consider my silence in this thread up to this point as a lack of caring or dismissal of the matter at hand.  I think that you guys are handling the discussion just fine and I don't have anything constructive to really add at the moment.  (That and I'm not sure how much time I'll personally be able to commit to helping reorganize right now, so I'm leaving to the people that I think are probably going to be leading the charge to make the changes.)
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Thirty-Seven

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2012, 12:43:46 PM »
Well, is there a disadvantage to namespacing? Patterns like X Salvage and X Badge are effectively a poor man's namespace as it is - is there any benefit to not formalizing it?
I don't think there is a disadvantage per se in terms of functionality... but there is in terms of workload.  Also, where does it stop?  Do we need an Inspiration namespace if we ever make seperate articles for them like had (sorta) already been started?  Do we need a "Pet:" namespace?

(No I don't think we need either of those ridiculous examples... However, future game changes could well necessitate such things.)

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eabrace

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2012, 07:47:59 PM »
The only real thought I had looking at those examples was this:

* The set page links the recipe and the enhancement.
* The recipe and enhancement pages link the set page.
* The recipe and enhancement pages do not, however, link one another.  Is this due to oversight or intent?
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Sekoia

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2012, 08:43:31 PM »
Well, is there a disadvantage to namespacing? Patterns like X Salvage and X Badge are effectively a poor man's namespace as it is - is there any benefit to not formalizing it?

There are only two mild disadvantages:

1. For searching, you'd have to search for "Salvage:X" instead of "X Salvage" to jump to the article directly, which is less intuitive. However, we already redirect from "X" to "X Salvage" anyway. I'd be fine with putting in redirects from "X" to "Salvage:X". (Though that does beg the question, for recipes and enhancements: Do we want "X" to be a disambiguation to "Recipe:X" and "Enhancement:X"?)

Aside: searching will still hit these namespaces (since I'll configure it to do so). I'm only talking about the behavior where you type an exact article name in and hit go above. Even without the redirects, such a search will still show the page you're looking at the top of the results.

Aside benefit: you can configure the search to exclude namespaces or focus on specific namespaces, so it may actually improve advanced searching abilities. There is no way to accomplish that outside of using namespaces.

2. For linking, it's fine to use [[X Salvage]], but it'd be awkward to use [[Salvage:X]]. However, this is actually an improvement. [[Salvage:X|]] automatically turns into [[Salvage:X|Salvage]] when you save it due to special piping magic. (Similarly, [[X (Salvage)|]] also would turn into [[X (Salvage)|X]].) So really, we'd be gaining a benefit in this area even if it doesn't look that way at first.

(That and I'm not sure how much time I'll personally be able to commit to helping reorganize right now, so I'm leaving to the people that I think are probably going to be leading the charge to make the changes.)

I'd prefer feedback from people even if they haven't the slightest intent in contributing to making the changes happen. If you use Paragon Wiki? Your opinion counts. So please, if you do end up having feedback, give it.

* The recipe and enhancement pages do not, however, link one another.  Is this due to oversight or intent?

They do, but the links aren't obvious. Look at the words "enhancement" and "recipe".

eabrace

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2012, 08:49:27 PM »
They do, but the links aren't obvious. Look at the words "enhancement" and "recipe".
Aha.  So they do.

I'll blame "only had a few seconds to look the pages over". :)
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Aggelakis

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2012, 04:34:15 AM »
* The recipe and enhancement pages do not, however, link one another.  Is this due to oversight or intent?
My examples link each other.

Recipe: Crafting this recipe creates the [enhancement] of the same name.
Enhancement: This enhancement can be obtained by crafting the [recipe] or it can be purchased on the Consignment House.
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Aggelakis

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2012, 08:33:43 AM »
Added an example of an IO/SBE combo page:

Set: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/User:Aggelakis/Performance_Shifter
Recipe: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/User:Aggelakis/Recipe:Performance Shifter: Chance for +Endurance
Enhancement: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/User:Aggelakis/Enhancement:Performance Shifter: Chance for +Endurance

Also, I cleared up the enhancement/recipe confusion on the set page by using small indicator icons instead of a bulleted list with parenthesized recipes. I'm not sure I like the ndash separator between the two (especially in combination with the unique/proc/global flags) but I couldn't think of anything better. I REALLY don't like the table format from Thirty7's sandbox.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 08:39:29 AM by Aggelakis »
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Thirty-Seven

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2012, 03:14:04 PM »
Honestly, I didn't like the table much either, but couldn't think of a way to make it obvious.  I wonder if a bullet would be better than the En Dash?

Thirty-Seven

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2012, 08:36:39 PM »
I have stolen Agge's formatting, deleted my prior attempts, and tweaked a few things in terms of order... some wording changes... some images movements, etc:

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/User:Thirty7/Sandbox/Performance_Shifter

Sekoia

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2012, 12:14:16 AM »
I personally see absolutely no reason why we need to include recipe links on the Enhancement Set page. The page is about the set of enhancements. It's about the properties of those enhancements as a set. None of that information applies to the recipes themselves. How you obtain the individual pieces are something I feel is better left to the enhancement articles. Especially since the recipe isn't the only way to get a lot of them, and not all sets even have recipes.

For parity, if recipe links are included, then something also needs to be included that references the fact that they're also available on the market. Of course, that would just make an even uglier mess out of it.

Thirty-Seven

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2012, 12:20:40 AM »
While I can see your point about not including the recipe links... If you go in-game and hover over a recipe, does it not display the Set Bonuses?  I really think that the purpose of the Set Page is as a central nexus for everything about that set, recipes included.  It is a jumping off point.

As for including a note about how to obtain it on the Set Page?  To me, that is what the Enhancement and Recipe pages are for... telling you how to make/get them and what they do.  The Set Page as I see it is a collection of the pieces, links to the information, and a description of set bonuses.  Nothing more.


Also, I wanted to note that I like the recent tweaks Agge did based on a few things that I included in my tweaks of her originals.  Hehe.  I love that sentence.  Do note, Agge, that I left a comment on one of your UserPages about something I thought of regarding the "how to purchase" information.  I wondered if instead of having the type of currency listed as the primary area, instead to have the Vendor by the main part, and list the currency used in the description.  As in here: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/User_talk:Aggelakis/Enhancement:Performance_Shifter:_Chance_for_%2BEndurance

Sekoia

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2012, 12:27:44 AM »
While I can see your point about not including the recipe links... If you go in-game and hover over a recipe, does it not display the Set Bonuses?

If you hover over the recipe, it gives you the enhancement's information. Looking at a random recipe I have in my current character's possession, it starts with "Enhances the accuracy of a power...". The recipe doesn't enhance the power, the enhancement does. None of the enhancement's information belongs on the recipe page. None of the recipe-specific information belongs on the enhancement or the set pages.

I really think that the purpose of the Set Page is as a central nexus for everything about that set, recipes included.  It is a jumping off point.

So it's two hops to get to the recipe from the set page instead of one jump. I don't see that as a problem. Not everything has to link directly to everything else that's somewhat related.

As for including a note about how to obtain it on the Set Page?  To me, that is what the Enhancement and Recipe pages are for... telling you how to make/get them and what they do.  The Set Page as I see it is a collection of the pieces, links to the information, and a description of set bonuses.  Nothing more.

If you don't think we should include a note on how to obtain the enhancement on the set page, then the recipe link doesn't belong there. Because the recipe link is telling you how to obtain it. Not including the market information alongside it means you're implying that the recipe is the only way to get the enhancement.

Thirty-Seven

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2012, 12:34:24 AM »
Not including the market information alongside it means you're implying that the recipe is the only way to get the enhancement.
I don't see that at all.  I really don't.  I see it as they both have the same name, and are related.

However, the more you force me to justify my position... the more I begin to realize that I think you might be right.  After all, there will soon be 24 (2 sets of ATOs and 12 AT sets each) set pages that have 0 information about recipes... because there AREN'T recipes for those sets.  *Ponders*

Sekoia

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2012, 03:20:58 AM »
When I look at it, one of the things I try to keep in mind is "How would this look to someone who's brand new to the game?". While it might not mislead you or me, it may very easily mislead someone who isn't already familiar with City's complexities (which get more and more complex every issue it seems).

Aggelakis

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Re: Re-evaluating Recipe/Enhancement articles
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2012, 03:44:19 AM »
...the recipes are part of the set. Why would they not be listed on the set overview page? They are directly linked to the set name.

The purchasable enhancements are linked...they're the enhancement link. The enhancement pages list every possible way to get them, including the Paragon Market if applicable.
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