Author Topic: Pieces of CoH on our computers  (Read 7953 times)

chaparralshrub

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Pieces of CoH on our computers
« on: September 19, 2012, 03:19:19 AM »
This may be useful to Plan Z later, so I'm posting it here now.

Some of the pieces of CoH shouldn't directly require contact with a server: the character creation fields, and the Architect system should be on our computers. Would it be possible for those of us with computer knowledge to be able to make ways that we could access them while the CoH servers are offline?

I remember discussion on this, the character creation screen at least, but it strikes me that MA should be available as well, and so far nobody has mentioned it. In fact, the MA arcs stored on our hard drives may even be playable...

chaparralshrub

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 11:33:25 AM »
*bump*

This got knocked off the front page so fast I'm not sure anybody saw it...

Knightslayer

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 11:50:00 AM »
I'm pretty sure there already is an independent CoH character creator - it's just outdated by a couple of years.
And I know at some point someone made an app where you could edit/create MA missions through a text based editor.

chaparralshrub

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 11:58:30 AM »
Is it possible to play them, by any chance? I'm pretty sure the interface in Architect Entertainment just launches a sub-app that is in the code on your hard drive, so if we could launch that...

Knightslayer

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 12:31:38 PM »
Here's a link to the thread about the CoH character creator.
No idea about the AE, maybe one of Titan's code savvy people will eventually come up with it? (though I'm guessing they are all quite busy with looking into what it'd take to run the game)

Vulpy

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 12:34:23 PM »
Here's a link to the thread about the CoH character creator.

I don't think your link made it into the text, there. >.>
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Knightslayer

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 12:37:28 PM »
I don't think your link made it into the text, there. >.>
D'oh! Got distracted! http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,4958.0.html
Thanks!

Thirty-Seven

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 01:00:29 PM »
Is it possible to play them, by any chance? I'm pretty sure the interface in Architect Entertainment just launches a sub-app that is in the code on your hard drive, so if we could launch that...
While I see what you are asking for... and want it too... it couldn't be used to develop Plan Z in any meaningful way since it is the property of NCSoft, and using it to develop another project would be a huge no-no.

Codewalker

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2012, 01:01:52 PM »
Is it possible to play them, by any chance? I'm pretty sure the interface in Architect Entertainment just launches a sub-app that is in the code on your hard drive, so if we could launch that...

No, you can't play the arcs offline.

Parts of the editor interface might be able to function, but given that they attempt to sync to the server periodically even that wouldn't be easy.

Actually playing the arc requires a map server, which always runs remote. It works just like a regular mission. Even in test mode you can still invite other players to your team, for example.

chaparralshrub

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2012, 01:04:14 PM »
Yeah, I know about that thread, and I know that it was hinted that Codewalker would be capable of getting us access at least as far as the character creation screen. I started this thread because I wanted to talk about Architect.

Here's why: NCSoft does not own the stuff we made on Architect, and the client is free to download. That means we should be on solid legal grounds to use Architect. We would need a server, but would it be possible to set up a server solely for the purposes of Architect? Again, they don't own anything WE make.

Yeah, I know we couldn't do Plan Z with it. Architect doesn't have the capability to make multiplayer zones anyway. But it might be yet another way to keep the community alive while we work on Plan Z.

Knightslayer

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 01:31:30 PM »
Here's why: NCSoft does not own the stuff we made on Architect, and the client is free to download. That means we should be on solid legal grounds to use Architect. We would need a server, but would it be possible to set up a server solely for the purposes of Architect? Again, they don't own anything WE make.

Pretty sure they actually DO, considering they technically even own the characters we make in the game.
I could be way off, but I thought that's how it works at least. (and not just on CoH, most MMO's have it IIRC)

Thirty-Seven

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 01:32:28 PM »
Here's why: NCSoft does not own the stuff we made on Architect, and the client is free to download.
Ummm... well... technically they might... if we published the arc.

A close reading of the EULA actually indicates that they own all of the characters that we make within their game... they aren't ours.  I would assume that that extends to the characters/stories created and published with their wholly owned mission builder as well.

*shrug*

Edit: Beaten to the punch a bit.

Scott Jackson

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 02:26:35 PM »
6(b) is the relevant EULA section.  However, don't be too quick to think your IP rights are gone...

The first part of the paragraph covers ideas that you didn't create.  It simply asks you to acknowledge that you didn't own those things.  For example - maybe you made an in-game character based on a TV show villain, or a recreation of Statesman with a gold and black costume.  You never owned that IP anyway, and you're just acknowledging that fact.  This protects

The second part asks you to agree to let NCSoft use your original characters and stories.  It doesn't relinquish your IP rights to your characters or stories - it gives NCSoft a license to use them.   For example, you might have created an original character - once you make that character in-game, you give NCSoft the right to use it in an advertisement for CoH, or sell miniatures of it.  That license is perpetual and irrevokable, but non-exclusive.  You don't lose your rights to use the character, and you can still license those IP rights to other people.  The intent of this section is to protect NCSoft from a lawsuit by you.


They do, however, own the individual costume pieces and mission maps that you used to build your character or missions.  If they withdraw your license to use those, then using the character creator or AE would violate the EULA.  They have not yet withdrawn that license.  They granted it to you in section 2.


Segev

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2012, 02:32:15 PM »
For example, you might have created an original character - once you make that character in-game, you give NCSoft the right to use it in an advertisement for CoH, or sell miniatures of it.  That license is perpetual and irrevokable, but non-exclusive.  You don't lose your rights to use the character, and you can still license those IP rights to other people.  The intent of this section is to protect NCSoft from a lawsuit by you.


They do, however, own the individual costume pieces and mission maps that you used to build your character or missions.  If they withdraw your license to use those, then using the character creator or AE would violate the EULA.  They have not yet withdrawn that license.  They granted it to you in section 2.
Hm, these two parts together open an interesting conundrum: You don't lose your right to, say, write a comic book based on your hero's adventures in his own setting with no characters-to-which-you-do-not-have-rights. But you built his entire look out of the Hero Creator, including costume bits, facial structure, body type, etc.

If NCSoft revokes your license to all those costume bits, etc., how drastically must you change your depiction of your character in order to keep writing your comic book for fun and profit?

Thirty-Seven

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2012, 02:35:19 PM »
If NCSoft revokes your license to all those costume bits, etc., how drastically must you change your depiction of your character in order to keep writing your comic book for fun and profit?
I believe the rule of thumb is a 20% variance... but I could be mistaken.  What does that mean?  Well, it would mean that you could keep the color scheme and a few other details, but nothing on it should specifically be recognizable as a CoH art asset.

Codewalker

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2012, 02:35:43 PM »

Thirty-Seven

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2012, 02:38:01 PM »
Thanks for correcting me, Code!

Segev

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2012, 02:39:38 PM »
You own your characters and stories, full stop. Even if NCSoft withdraws the license to use the costume pieces, you still own your character, because of this section:

However, if said license is terminated, you can't legally use the character creator to make new characters. There is the question of how exactly NCsoft would notify you of that termination. Simply shutting down the servers doesn't necessarily terminate the license. Nor does ceasing subscription payments, since the game was free-to-play.
They'd have to send you a cease-and-desist order, effectively. Though they could get away with much harsher wording if they made a good-faith public announcement that would pass a "reasonable man" test of "could the person in question have been expected to hear about this?"

(I'm not a lawyer; I just am fascinated by certain aspects of the law. Among these aspects is just how often the "reasonable man" standard applies.)

Codewalker

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2012, 02:47:36 PM »
Well USC Title 17 does say it has to be a written notification:

Quote
(4) The termination shall be effected by serving an advance notice in writing, signed by the number and proportion of owners of termination interests required under clauses (1) and (2) of this subsection, or by their duly authorized   agents,   upon   the   grantee   or   the   grantee's   successor   in   title.

However, right before that it also says that it can only be terminated 35 years after the license term begins, so it may be talking about something else. I Am Not A Lawyer (TM) :)

Scott Jackson

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2012, 02:49:59 PM »
If NCSoft revokes your license to all those costume bits, etc., how drastically must you change your depiction of your character in order to keep writing your comic book for fun and profit?

The answer depends on how you created the character.  If you created the character's costume long ago - let's say you had artwork of it from 2001 - and simply used the costume creator to make an approximation of that original design, you could freely use the original design even if it was identical to the in-game appearance.  You made the original design first and could prove it.

If you made the character either within the character creator from scratch, or made a character outside the game after being inspired by in-game costume elements, then while your original character's name and story belong entirely to you, you've created a derivative work of art using some IP from NCSoft, and would need to edit the costume to be safe to use it elsewhere.  I don't want to speculate on the precise amount of costume redesign you'd have to do.  Thirty7 may be right about the 20%; I haven't researched it.

Thirty-Seven

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 02:54:20 PM »
Thirty7 may be right about the 20%; I haven't researched it.
To clarify, I haven't researched it either... but had heard it tossed around as a helpful guide to prevent infringement, NOT as a a part of any law (though it could be).

StarRanger4

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 03:42:43 PM »
Thirty7 may be right about the 20%; I haven't researched it.

I seem to recall digging around about that sort of stuff once myself; the 'number' my subconcious keep dragging out isn't a percentage, but "7 differences"

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 10:01:33 PM »
The "20% rule of thumb" is a complete fallacy as is the "7 differences."

Copyright protection is copyright protection; otherwise someone could take one of Tolkien's books, rename all the characters, swap some of the characters' sexes, delete a few scenes and add some new ones and publish it as "their" book.

So the answer is "no, you cannot legally do that."
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DrakeGrimm

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2012, 10:02:54 PM »
The "20% rule of thumb" is a complete fallacy as is the "7 differences."

Copyright protection is copyright protection; otherwise someone could take one of Tolkien's books, rename all the characters, swap some of the characters' sexes, delete a few scenes and add some new ones and publish it as "their" book.

So the answer is "no, you cannot legally do that."

...I think I've read that book, actually... :P
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QuantumHero

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2012, 10:18:22 PM »
...I think I've read that book, actually... :P

Was it shannara?   ;)
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Defcon Kid

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2012, 10:36:24 PM »
 :o :o :o Sorry got lost with all these laws... so who's the owner of the characters I've created since 2005? NCSoft or me? and what if I was able to use already stablished and well-known superheroe costumes for my characters (not exactly the same, but with a few changes)?
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Victoria Victrix

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2012, 10:42:10 PM »
:o :o :o Sorry got lost with all these laws... so who's the owner of the characters I've created since 2005? NCSoft or me? and what if I was able to use already stablished and well-known superheroe costumes for my characters (not exactly the same, but with a few changes)?

Answer to the first question: according to copyright law, you are the owner of the characters you created, but at the moment NCSoft has an unlimited license to use them however they see fit.

Answer to the second question:  NO.  You cannot just change an established and well-known superhero costume and get away with it.  Besides, THOSE costumes are not only under copyright, but TRADEMARKED, and as such come under a whole other set of laws that are a lot more stringent than copyright (to the point that Cadbury's has successfully won the a suit over using purple and silver as their exclusive right for candy wrappers under international trademark law)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 03:09:17 AM by Victoria Victrix »
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chaparralshrub

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2012, 01:40:45 AM »
All right, next question: the CoH comics. Right now you can download them here, but notice that the web address is a Paragon website, so it may not be around for too much later.

Can we archive them on Titan (so that we have access to them), or is this a case of "get them now while we still can"?

Scott Jackson

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2012, 02:28:32 AM »
When asking about the amount of changes required to have your character (with its original name & story) wear the costume of a well-known character like Batman, it's less of a legal question, and more of a "real world" question.

Are you ok with being sued, as long as you win?  Then make enough costume changes that would convince a judge/jury that you didn't copy.  The "right amount of changes" varies by jurisdiction and how well your case is presented.

Do you want to avoid a lawsuit entirely? Then make enough changes so that the IP owners will be afraid of losing a lawsuit...or simply stay beneath their notice.

The "Avoid lawsuit" one is a tougher standard, and if you're publishing popular comics or selling merchandise - that will get noticed.  Safely making money off your character as it wears another's costume is basically impossible - much better to wipe out all distinguishing connections between the character's costume and its source - essentially creating a new costume, with only a few small shared characteristics like a modified utility belt and cape.  However - if you're just using the character quietly, in a superhero MMO game where you run missions with friends, and never broadcast Batman quotes, then a Batman-inspired costume is unlikely to get the attention of anyone who cares, and even if it does, the consequences have been minor - such as a generic'd costume for the first offense.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 02:38:21 AM by Scott Jackson »

Olantern

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2012, 02:49:35 AM »
VV and Mr. Jackson posted everything I wanted to say here already.  :)

houtex

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2012, 03:09:26 AM »
This is what I was talking about in the CoH forums, in that *we* own the characters we make. 

We do not own the *art* the characters are made up from.  But we own the "assembly process" if you will, the selection of the parts that the character is made of, that *code* is ours.

As is the text/lore of our Bios for those characters.

And is extensible to the pertienent parts of the MA missions you write: The mission makeup, the text in it, and any custom creations that are truly yours.  I.E., not a Venom clone or such.

But also note that if any of this is previously copyrighted (Iron Man clones... or even anyone making a 'Thing of Bigness' or 'Brawling Humiliator' character that looks like mine, shares my character's name, or has my character's back story, btw) could or will invalidate your claim to rights of the IP of that character/story, or portions of it.

---

Or so I read it as, anyway. 

Now... this is the thing I wanted to ask, as the tough part has been settled, IMO, on whether I own the character or not:

Is it possible that, if the game can't be saved/kept running otherwise, to somehow injunct NCSoft from shutting down all pertinent services related to *my being allowed to access my character?*

Thing is... without a functioning client and game server (in this case, Pinnacle, and Virtue for my 'houtex' avatar)  I cannot access my character.  I also cannot access my missions.

In other words, I am prevented from accessing MY IP. 

Can NCSoft do this?  Or is it that I can... somehow... get the 'my IP' part of the characters and/or MA Arcs offline and separated from the game, and that's all I need to have NCSoft be washed of any further action?  Regardless of whether I can actually use them or not?

I think this is A Thing(tm) that needs to be looked into by people way more intelligent and versed in The Law than I.

Anyway.  There I went.  Thanks!

#SaveCoH

Mike

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2012, 03:32:23 AM »
Again there is no legal precedent for this but in the laws regarding written copyright, it is assumed that you kept a personal copy of your own work, and if you did not, that is your problem. 

For instance, if I had lost all the backup and hard copies of one of my books, I could not sue the publishing company that had allowed it to go out of print because I no longer had access to it.  The onus is on you to keep copies, not on the publisher.

I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

billymailman

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2012, 03:43:56 AM »
Is it possible that, if the game can't be saved/kept running otherwise, to somehow injunct NCSoft from shutting down all pertinent services related to *my being allowed to access my character?*

Thing is... without a functioning client and game server (in this case, Pinnacle, and Virtue for my 'houtex' avatar)  I cannot access my character.  I also cannot access my missions.

In other words, I am prevented from accessing MY IP. 

Can NCSoft do this?  Or is it that I can... somehow... get the 'my IP' part of the characters and/or MA Arcs offline and separated from the game, and that's all I need to have NCSoft be washed of any further action?  Regardless of whether I can actually use them or not?

NCsoft aren't preventing you from accessing your IP. They're preventing you from accessing a specific depiction of the concepts and ideas that are a part of your IP, but the IP itself? That's all still yours.
That's the thing. IP is Intellectual property. It's not some physical thing they have access to, but a collection of rights you can excercise. Specifically (since very few players will have registered their characters for trademark), it's the copyrights related to your characters' images, names, stories, etc. Those copyrights are the IP we're talking about, and the rights don't exist on a disk drive anywhere. You still own the rights, even after NC shuts the game down. The stuff on their servers is merely a depiction of characters and stories, some of which you may own the copyright to.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2012, 04:27:00 AM »
NCsoft aren't preventing you from accessing your IP. They're preventing you from accessing a specific depiction of the concepts and ideas that are a part of your IP, but the IP itself? That's all still yours.
That's the thing. IP is Intellectual property. It's not some physical thing they have access to, but a collection of rights you can excercise. Specifically (since very few players will have registered their characters for trademark), it's the copyrights related to your characters' images, names, stories, etc. Those copyrights are the IP we're talking about, and the rights don't exist on a disk drive anywhere. You still own the rights, even after NC shuts the game down. The stuff on their servers is merely a depiction of characters and stories, some of which you may own the copyright to.

And unless you published your story arc (and maybe after, I am not sure) it is still on your computer.  It isn't in a form that you can use or read, but that is not NCSoft's problem.

Also, for the visual depiction of your characters, NCSoft can argue convincingly that you had 3 months to demorecord them (which I am going to start next month myself), and if you didn't do so, it also is not their problem.

I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

chaparralshrub

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2012, 04:36:30 AM »
My published story arcs are on my computer. I am *using* them to program software that will tell their stories sans CoH, if need be! ;)


Again, what about the comics? Can we freely distribute them once Paragon goes down and they're no longer available? IP-wise, they do not belong to us, although some of us have licenses to them (we bought the copies), and right now, they're free for download: http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/media_and_downloads/official_comic_archive/comic_archive.php

dwturducken

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2012, 04:40:56 AM »
Again there is no legal precedent for this but in the laws regarding written copyright, it is assumed that you kept a personal copy of your own work, and if you did not, that is your problem. 

For instance, if I had lost all the backup and hard copies of one of my books, I could not sue the publishing company that had allowed it to go out of print because I no longer had access to it.  The onus is on you to keep copies, not on the publisher.

I actually knew a writer (of religious works) who had me source half a dozen "back up" USB floppy drives, because all of her work was on floppy disks, and she didn't want to be unable to access them if her existing drive died, as it's harder and harder to find computers, let alone laptops, that have a floppy drive.  Her reasoning was exactly this, that she had to be able to access the work if someone needed it in the future.

We also had a long discussion on the importance of the "feel" of the keyboard, but that's a discussion for another day.

WRT our characters, if we want to retain anything that we might have, say, adapted from characters we had created for another medium, we probably should get on the stick and start up the Sentinel tool with those characters while there's time.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2012, 04:54:38 AM »
Again, what about the comics? Can we freely distribute them once Paragon goes down and they're no longer available? IP-wise, they do not belong to us, although some of us have licenses to them (we bought the copies), and right now, they're free for download: http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/media_and_downloads/official_comic_archive/comic_archive.php

/em rubs head

OK...there are a couple of quasi-legal use-at-your-own-risk may-vanish-one-day comic book archives that have taken a staggering amount of back issues of things and loaded them up.  These are all scanned by hand from back issues that are long out of print including some that are (still) worth scary amounts of money (after the investment-in-comics crash) just so that people who actually want to read them can do so.  That might be the place to put them...the archivists know the risk they are taking (though not even the Two 600-lb Gorillas have taken any steps to stop them) and it takes the risk off CoH Titan. 

Here's one:  http://digitalcomicmuseum.com/

Here's another: http://aibq.com/index.php

Larry tells me the standard format is .cbr which puts all the pages in the right order so you can flip through them.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

DrakeGrimm

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2012, 04:57:08 AM »
Let me just say that, as someone who reads his comics digitally almost exclusively, I adore .cbr file formats.
We are the crazy ones, the mavericks, the dreamers, the forgotten sons. We color outside the lines for fun. We are the crazy ones! - "The Crazy Ones," Stellar Revival

"We put ourselves in "the attitude of heroes"--and we all became a little more heroic." - VV

chaparralshrub

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Re: Pieces of CoH on our computers
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2012, 05:00:20 AM »
Well, the simplest thing for any of us to do is just to download them and make personal repositories for ourselves. But what if somebody in the future needs them?