There is Hope: Keep Fighting

[Kheprera]

[Nafaustu]

That's positive, we hadn't heard that for a little bit.   Thanks for sharing this on the forums.

[Olantern]

Fantastic.  Thanks to Thor's Assassin for posting it to his blog and to Kheprera for posting it here!

In addition to good news, it is also good advice.

[dwturducken]

My favorite part was from the paragraph above: "There is a movement in the professional gaming world to save the game in some form or fashion but the process is complicated and involves several key elements to succeed."

While this may not have been news to everyone here, it was to me, and was as good as any news since Black Friday.

[steelrat70]

Just the words "requires several key elements to succeed" is the most encouraging news that I've heard so far.  There is a process by which success can happen rather than the vague "we're still talking" that we've heard till now.

[Segev]

Is there word on who might be a good person to contact to find out what those "key elements" are? I would be interested in taking as active a hand as I can in aiding any or all that I have any capacity to help out.

[steelrat70]

The way i read that they cant give out any additional info and really all we can do is just what weve been doing thus far

[DrakeGrimm]

/em holdtorch

[Blacjac84]

If the negotiations are going our way, I'm sure what's going on is that they making sure all the "i"s are dotted and all the "t"s are crossed.

[Heat Guard]

Thank you for making this thread, if I didn't already get my fight back, I think this would have done it.  I will be directing players here that I think could really use seeing news like this with their own eyes.

The fight may be hard, but I think we just got word that the cavalry is arriving!

[chaparralshrub]

Well, sorry to be the discouraging realist, but do keep in mind the following facts:

1. Thor's Assassin is not an official; he's a blogger. There is a move in the professional gaming community to save CoH, but as far as we know that could be just within Paragon, what's left of it. We already knew that Paragon is trying to scrape together something; we just don't know what.

2. We know what some of those key elements are going to be: first, this movement needs money to pay NCSoft for whatever NCSoft is willing to part with. Second, it will need cooperation on NCSoft's part - we still don't know what plans NCSoft had, or how CoH didn't fit into them. If NCSoft is planning on releasing another MMO or something and doesn't want CoH to compete with it, then they will do what they can to kill any attempt to revive it. Last, keeping CoH up and running, or raising it from the dead, will require staff to maintain it. I'm sure all of these things are currently on the negotiating table.

*

Nonetheless, this definitely is an encouraging blog, because it proves that Paragon itself is still trying - we aren't going down without a fight, and they aren't going down without one either. And we also know that our support is helping Paragon's cause, even if it's just moral support and encouragement.

And yes, I hope that there really is a widespread movement within the professional gaming community that is gaining support in an attempt to save CoH. And yes, I hope that NCSoft is getting anxious over the undesirable public image that they stand to acquire if they do not do something to allow CoH to continue.

[Turjan]

He's a good bloke, that Thor's Assassin   

Two very important facts to take from his article -

Fact the First - The story's definitely not over yet, so we must keep on playing our part in it

Fact the Second - Carry on being the Good Guys, not the Bad Guys.
Yes, I know sometimes we feel like unloading an arsenal of whupass on NCSoft, but that's not the way to play this. Obviously there really are still things going on behind the scenes, and it serves no-one's purpose if we run around behaving like pouty kids or spiteful jackasses.

There may come a time when we can legitimately behave like pouty kids and spiteful jackasses...but that day is not today 

Stay civil, and stay on target! 

[The White Rager]

At this point, we have one main goal: keep making noise, and if possible, ramp it up. Our efforts got the door open, and our efforts are what give the Paragon Studio staff bargaining power. They do the negotiating. We make sure NCSoft is paying attention. I need to make a thread on the subject of advertising - judging from the dinner campaign, we could have about five thousand dollars to put into some well placed ads in less than a day, and it still wouldn't be demanding very much from each individual. Community members have already produced plenty of high quality graphics to use. I wish I could volunteer my services for the ads themselves, I do have a degree in graphic design. But I'm having to get by with a lot less sleep just to keep up with my college as is (I changed careers).

[Segev]

One concern about using video stuff I've seen users here produce in an actual paid-for ad campaign: don't they use a lot of in-game footage? I'm concerned that this might step on what we're allowed to do with it, since NCSoft owns the graphic designs in-game from the costume pieces to the city buildings to the trees.

[chaparralshrub]

Well, on that note, Paragon Wiki is loaded with screenshots and text from the game. Yet, nobody has ever come after us for that.

I think we're probably safe in using game footage, as that is used for reviews, news, and whatnot and is allowed. But there are limits and I don't know where they are exactly.

[The White Rager]

So your point is, we may not be able to legally create ads using CoH IP? A graphic using the Statesman, for instance, like nearly all of them do? (I wasn't talking about the videos really - you're thinking television advertising? I'm thinking web. Faster, simpler to implement. TV ads are probably arranged well in advance. I know print ones are, getting those out within our current time frame is flat out impossible). I suppose it's a possibility. Feedback from the informed, anyone?

[The White Rager]

I admit I'm doubtful we'll get bit for it though. Especially if it's non-profit, we're not claiming any kind of credit, etc.

[Segev]

Well, I suppose one thing it would do is see just where NCSoft wants to stand, publicly. They wouldn't do a C&D on a wiki because it supports their game, rather than competing with it. It's basically free work the fans were doing for them. If they don't like the ads when the ads come up, though...

...it will be telling, but it also could, if it comes up bad, hurt our attempts to keep both carrot and stick out there.

So yes, get some legal advice, if at all possible. I think it not a bad idea, save for that risk. Just keep the ads positive, promoting good things worth saving about CoH. Keep all negativity about NCSoft out, if at all possible. (I think the stuff fans have produced mostly lives up to that standard, fortunately.) "We want NCSoft to sell the IP before the game dies" is okay. That's not painting them as villains, merely as "needing to be persuaded."

[SithRose]

One more item to take away from this - Even if all NCSoft is doing with the capes and masks is sending them on to what's left of Paragon Studios, it is still giving them hope.

Every cape and every mask is a person or a family saying "We love you. We support you. We want our game back. We are backing you all the way. We are STILL HERE."

Keep up that momentum. Keep the support rolling in to the people on our side of the table. Keep giving them reasons to say "WE are heroes to our players. We CAN do this. We can save our game."

Letters. Masks. Capes. Photographs. Screenshots. Stories. Never send the same thing twice. But KEEP IT COMING. Polite and gentle pressure on NCSoft. Polite and firm reassurance to Paragon. Follow Victoria Victrix in her calls to action. ALL of us can do that much.

(I'm copying this to the Masks and Capes initiative thread too.)

[Chaos Ex Machina]

You are actually better to use a non-official character as advertising anyway, to demonstrate customizability.

Just use a lot of extremely attractive costumes.

I think Statesman has a terrible advertising motif, actually.

[Victoria Victrix]

If you use game-canonical content (characters, images, graphics) in an ad that NCSoft does not like, NCSoft can have it removed immediately for trademark infringement (MUCH faster way to move than copyright infringement), copyright infringement, and just plain "they didn't pay to use it."

This is how several bands have managed to get their music pulled from political ads that they do not approve of.

HOWEVER

If you use the game to create an original character(s), images and graphics that are NOT game-canonical, even if NCSoft does NOT approve, they have a much harder time getting it removed.  This is how political ads are able to stay on air or on net when they have blatantly stolen video footage from their opponents and reused it to reflect their stance.  There's no clear way to say "but they stole the use of my animation engine!"

Edit: I really need to finish statements before I move on to the next paragraph, /em facepalm.

[P51mus]

Well, I suppose one thing it would do is see just where NCSoft wants to stand, publicly. They wouldn't do a C&D on a wiki because it supports their game, rather than competing with it. It's basically free work the fans were doing for them. If they don't like the ads when the ads come up, though...

...it will be telling, but it also could, if it comes up bad, hurt our attempts to keep both carrot and stick out there.

So yes, get some legal advice, if at all possible. I think it not a bad idea, save for that risk. Just keep the ads positive, promoting good things worth saving about CoH. Keep all negativity about NCSoft out, if at all possible. (I think the stuff fans have produced mostly lives up to that standard, fortunately.) "We want NCSoft to sell the IP before the game dies" is okay. That's not painting them as villains, merely as "needing to be persuaded."

I'm pretty sure any attempts to shut down ads would just bring more attention to them.  Remember, with the internet came the Streisand effect.

[EDIT: fixed link ~Agge]

[ThorsAssassin]

Thanks for posting this Khep!

Well, sorry to be the discouraging realist, but do keep in mind the following facts:

1. Thor's Assassin is not an official; he's a blogger. There is a move in the professional gaming community to save CoH, but as far as we know that could be just within Paragon, what's left of it. We already knew that Paragon is trying to scrape together something; we just don't know what.

2. We know what some of those key elements are going to be: first, this movement needs money to pay NCSoft for whatever NCSoft is willing to part with. Second, it will need cooperation on NCSoft's part - we still don't know what plans NCSoft had, or how CoH didn't fit into them. If NCSoft is planning on releasing another MMO or something and doesn't want CoH to compete with it, then they will do what they can to kill any attempt to revive it. Last, keeping CoH up and running, or raising it from the dead, will require staff to maintain it. I'm sure all of these things are currently on the negotiating table.

Point 1 - It's true I am a blogger but it's also true that I am as invested in the saving of this game as anyone. What is also true is that I went to the community dinner as a supporter of Paragon Studios, the community and the SaveCoh campaign. I return as a messenger who cannot reveal everything I learned due to protecting the employees and former employees of Paragon Studios.

What I CAN safely say is that it's not just Paragon and the community here, hell it's not even just the professional gaming community. Some of the people involved that could affect change and make a difference aren't in the gaming industry, don't even know why there is even an uproar over it. They see it as just a game and it's our job as the ones invested in the game and community to adequately relay just what this game and community mean to us. They need to know why it is something worth saving in the first place. They have no idea what it's like to be in a virtual community. So go out there and yell it from the rooftops to make them understand that.

Point 2 - This is the part where I cannot say a lot about. Though it's more than money needed, it's the process it would take to separate Coh from NCSoft and all the complications that go with that. They are in constant negotiation though and are actively trying to find a way to make it happen. Wish I could say more on this because it was inspiring what is taking place behind the scenes.

[emu265]

Thanks for posting this Khep!

Point 1 - It's true I am a blogger but it's also true that I am as invested in the saving of this game as anyone. What is also true is that I went to the community as a supporter of Paragon Studio, the community and the SaveCoh campaign. I return as a messenger who cannot reveal everything I learned due to protecting the employees and former employees of Paragon Studios.

What I CAN safely say is that it's not just Paragon and the community here, hell it's not even just the professional gaming community. Some of the people involved that could affect change and make a difference aren't in the gaming industry, don't even know why there is even an uproar over it. They see it as just a game and it's our job as the ones invested in the game and community to adequately relay just what this game and community mean to us. They need to know why it is something worth saving in the first place. They have no idea what it's like to be in a virtual community. So go out there and yell it from the rooftops to make them understand that.

Point 2 - This is the part where I cannot say a lot about. Though it's more than money needed, it's the process it would take to separate Coh from NCSoft and all the complications that go with that. They are in constant negotiation though and are actively trying to find a way to make it happen. Wish I could say more on this because it was inspiring what is taking place behind the scenes.

Wow.  Um, as much as I'd love to know what you heard in full, what you just said was pretty uplifting.  So, they are actually trying to sever Cities from NCSoft, huh?  This pleases me.

[Victoria Victrix]

Thanks ThorsAssassin.  Thank you very much.  This is what I have been getting the sense of from Brian Clayton, but of course he can't actually tell me much.

Did not hear from Brian midweek, but I have the feeling he figured ThorsAssassin would probably pass on all that was "legal" at this point.  I usually hear from him late Sunday night, which seems to be when he catches up on email.

[DrakeGrimm]

/em HoldTorch

[ThorsAssassin]

Thanks ThorsAssassin.  Thank you very much.  This is what I have been getting the sense of from Brian Clayton, but of course he can't actually tell me much.

Did not hear from Brian midweek, but I have the feeling he figured ThorsAssassin would probably pass on all that was "legal" at this point.  I usually hear from him late Sunday night, which seems to be when he catches up on email.

You are very welcome Merecedes! It was Brian who we mostly heard from at the dinner, he actually sought us out as players to give us updates. He was the one that was carrying the spirit and is someone working hard to save the game. He actually spent more time with us then he did with the team. I have a pic there where Matt had to come seek him out haha.

But it was definitely encouraging to hear him talk with such zeal. Last thing I heard from him when I left was "It's isn't over yet" and that gave me a big smile.

[chaparralshrub]

Thanks for posting this Khep!

Point 1 - It's true I am a blogger but it's also true that I am as invested in the saving of this game as anyone. What is also true is that I went to the community dinner as a supporter of Paragon Studios, the community and the SaveCoh campaign. I return as a messenger who cannot reveal everything I learned due to protecting the employees and former employees of Paragon Studios.

What I CAN safely say is that it's not just Paragon and the community here, hell it's not even just the professional gaming community. Some of the people involved that could affect change and make a difference aren't in the gaming industry, don't even know why there is even an uproar over it. They see it as just a game and it's our job as the ones invested in the game and community to adequately relay just what this game and community mean to us. They need to know why it is something worth saving in the first place. They have no idea what it's like to be in a virtual community. So go out there and yell it from the rooftops to make them understand that.

Point 2 - This is the part where I cannot say a lot about. Though it's more than money needed, it's the process it would take to separate Coh from NCSoft and all the complications that go with that. They are in constant negotiation though and are actively trying to find a way to make it happen. Wish I could say more on this because it was inspiring what is taking place behind the scenes.

I did not expect a response to my post - thank you so very, very much for clarifying! This is indeed good news! If you are still in touch with them, tell Paragon that this forumer wishes the best possible for them!


And thank you very much for your insights on intellectual property, Ms. Lackey (not to mention your deservedly award-winning books)!

[Kheprera]

FWIW I would trust TA with the lives of my kids.

I know how passionate he is about CoH (just look at his commissioned art gallery).  His words brought my hope back.

[sass]

LOL Khep .. I have entrusted TA with my kids - am STILL entrusting TA with my kids .. they adore him!!  - so .. you're right there!   

I didn't go to the coh dinner - but I"m so proud to be part of this community.  Keeping my fingers and toes crossed too ....

[Segev]

Some of the people involved that could affect change and make a difference aren't in the gaming industry, don't even know why there is even an uproar over it. They see it as just a game and it's our job as the ones invested in the game and community to adequately relay just what this game and community mean to us. They need to know why it is something worth saving in the first place. They have no idea what it's like to be in a virtual community. So go out there and yell it from the rooftops to make them understand that.

Perhaps these "people involved that could affect change and make a difference" would be some to whom an invitation to attend our Media Day event we're working to organize. Would you be able to extend that invitation to them?

[zoser]

This was a morale boost that I sorely needed, thanks a mill, TA. If dedication, creativity and will in themselves were enough, we'd have this one in the bag already, sadly there is more and the silence from the NCSOFT side is hard to take. But I will not give up - if we manage to pull this one off, we have made gaming history. But mostly we will have saved our home!

We are heroes, this is what we do! I must remember that.

[The-Hunter-JLJ]

(grin) I never liked Statesman, really. He just rubbed me the wrong way. Oh well.

[zoser]

You should have enjoyed mission 5 of "Who will die?" then ...
Anyway, let's hope that the City survives his passing - we will certainly do all we can to make that happen!

[chaparralshrub]

Actually, I find that scene to be anticlimactic. But I'm more upset about season 6. I rather like Manticore, and I'd like him to be happier. 


Oh well, here's some inspirational music.

And, if the city doesn't get saved, then maybe this is the fate of the world without the city

We have to keep this up, fellow villains (and heroes)! The Stars are Right!

[Cold Bob]

/;holdtorch 

[Tahliah]

/em holdtorch

[Knightslayer]

(grin) I never liked Statesman, really. He just rubbed me the wrong way. Oh well.

Did you read Web of Arachnos and the Freedom Phalanx, JLJ?
They at least show a different side of him than the aloof jerk he is in the comics.

[Blacjac84]

ThorsAssassin kinda confirmed what I suspected was going on, but at the moment, it really a speculation.  If indeed NCSoft is severing ties with CoH, then I think the obvious deal that's being haggled is what will NCSoft get in return.  Until the real news finally comes out, we'll just have to wait and see.