Author Topic: Korean Kibun  (Read 32939 times)

StarRanger4

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Korean Kibun
« on: October 03, 2012, 02:41:54 PM »
VV, in a move that makes me think she has the same empathic 'gift' that so many of her Heraldic charecters do, gave me a Mission last night.

It involved trying to get the managment of NC soft to understand us, even if we had to deeply shame them into doing so.

What I found, and what seems to be key here, is the concept of Kibun.  Here is the infodump of last nights research:

:startdump

http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/resources/global-etiquette/south-korea-country-profile.html

The Concept of Kibun

. Kibun is a word with no literal English translation; the closest terms are pride, face, mood, feelings, or state of mind.
. If you hurt someone's kibun you hurt their pride, cause them to lose dignity, and lose face. Korean interpersonal relationships operate on the principle of harmony.
. It is important to maintain a peaceful, comfortable atmosphere at all times, even if it means telling a "white lie".
. Kibun enters into every facet of Korean life.
. It is important to know how to judge the state of someone else's kibun, how to avoid hurting it, and how to keep your own kibun at the same time.
. In business, a manager's kibun is damaged if his subordinates do not show proper respect. A subordinate's kibun is damaged if his manager criticizes him in public.
. Nunchi is the ability to determine another person's kibun by using the eye.
. Since this is a culture where social harmony is crucial, being able to judge another person's state of mind is critical to maintain the person's kibun.
. Nunchi is accomplished by watching body language and listening to the tone of voice as well as what is said.

http://www.korea4expats.com/article-nunchi-kibun-values-norms-korea.html

Writing a person's name in red ink is tantamount to saying they are dead or will die soon.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=187344

Kibun
Korean relationships between people is based on Harmony. To maintain this balance is very important to the point where people will give up something or not tell the truth.

Kibun has no direct translation. It relates to a persons mood and feelings. To hurt someones kibun is generally a terrible thing to do, although foriegners do get allowances made for doing it (to a point).

So Korean culture is much about the feelings of others. Trying to keep other peoples kibun intact while maintaining your own is actually quite a job.

To ignore kibun in Korea will generally lead to problems on your side. For example if you were to try and get someone to do something while their kibun is hurt, they are more likley not to help you.

The somewhat annoying thing (for westerners) is that it is very easy to hurt someones kibun by everyday actions. Slagging someone off, being argumentative, giving bad news, or ignoring Korean social rankings.

A very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).

It is possible as a foriegn person to ignore kibun, but if you don't you will find you get more respect from Koreans.

Nunchi
Translation is eye measure.

To better understand how a persons kibun is, or what a person is feeling is called Nunchi. Koreans are taught not to make their true feelings shown so generally others have to use nunchi to guess how the other is feeling.

It is generally thought of as a sixth sense, but it is more looking at visual clues and understand what a Korean is really saying when they say something.

An example would be, If you are a boss of a Korean and you tell them they are doing a certain thing wrong in their work, they may take this to mean that you are not satisfied with all their work.

Or another. A Korean may say to you "Are you hungry?". They are actually saying "I am hungry, can we eat now?". So if you answer "No" it would hurt their kibun. The correct answer would be to ask the Korean what they want to eat.

http://outsideinkorea.com/culture/on-kibun/
Kibun (기분 — variously romanized, roughly pronounced ‘gee-boon’) has been translated into English as ‘mood’ or ‘state of mind’ or ‘feeling’, but these are pale concepts compared to the Korean one. In Korea, Kibun is regarded as much more important a matter than most westerners would regard mere mood. In another of those seeming contradictions of Korea, Koreans have a tendency to dwell, involute, on their more delicate feelings, despite their rough-and-ready, earthy exteriors. The degree to which they can focus on their emotional states can seem almost effete to a westerner, particularly one who, like me, grew up in a rough, tough northern town. Kibun is of overarching importance in social relations, is constantly discussed, and attempts are always made to ensure kibun is preserved.

Damage to your kibun is damage to your essence, and can have negative effects both mentally and physically.

It might be described as the part of you that goes beyond your physical presence, that not only permeates your being but surrounds you, invisibly, like a cloud. But it can be damaged, by unhappiness or disrespect, by losing face, by thoughtlessness or humiliation, by anything that’s disruptive to the harmony you feel with other people. Damage to your kibun is damage to your essence, and can have negative effects both mentally and physically.

the only way to regain face and salvage personal kibun is to blow up and stomp and yell. This happens a lot, too.

It is this consciousness of an inner life, one that is molded by the degree of harmony one achieves in one’s relationships with other people to whom one feels any degree of responsibility, that gives Koreans their almost preternatural ability to sense peoples’ mood, and their character, and modify their own behaviour to lubricate the social gears. That’s the nice part. The infuriating flip side of that, though, for many foreigners, is the tendency to dance elegantly away from any potential confrontation. An angry waeguk-in, until they understand what’s happening, is likely to become angrier when the Korean with whom they have a bone to pick says ‘Maybe’ when they mean ‘No’, or ‘tomorrow’ when they mean ‘never’, in order to try and re-establish harmonious dealings. The accompanying, ever-present potential too, is that when someone is pushed too far, and they lose face, in which case ‘social harmony’ can take a flying leap, and the only way to regain face and salvage personal kibun is to blow up and stomp and yell. This happens a lot, too.

In this consciousness of the relationships between people and its effect on your own wellbeing, rather than the ‘correctness’, ‘objective truth’, or self-interest of an individual or his arguments, there is a minefield of potential misunderstanding. Most foreigners to Korea trip through it over and over again, myself included, before they realize that putting the kibun of the people around you first, even in a situation of confrontation, will bring results.

(As an aside, this is what the Americans do not seem to understand, or care to, when they deal with North Korea. The patterns of seemingly-irrational behaviour on the part of the DPRK negotiators isn’t (always) irrational at all, from their own perspective.)

The importance of kibun for Korean people should never be underestimated. It’s not merely convention, it’s baked-in. Koreans can make crucial, important decisions based on kibun. Business decisions, choice of a mate, career and employment choices, all may be taken on the basis of what feels right, or what will result in the most socially harmonious outcome for all concerned. Koreans will discuss kibun, but rarely attempt to analyze it in this way. To do so would perhaps damage their kibun.

This is not to say that decisions, important or otherwise, are made strictly on a non-rational, intuitive basis. Things like love and marriage, about which westerners can be decidedly irrational, are approached with a combination of cold, rational analysis and intuitive leaps here, for example. It is another of the contradictions that make up so much of what it means to be Korean.

In future, look for more on this from me. Kibun is only one of the six controlling concepts of the Korean psyche : chemyeon, neunchi, kibun, bunuiki, jeong and han, and the interplay between these guiding forces is what makes Koreans so unique, and, at times, so difficult for the non-Korean to understand.

[originally published January 2002, revised and updated 2006]

http://www.korea4expats.com/article-nunchi-kibun-values-norms-korea.html

 Even though they are evolving (as is the case with many other norms and values in today's Korea), the  following cultural values/norms are fundamental to Korean culture.

Harmony in personal relationships is a dominant force in a Korean’s life. Facts, logic and conclusions are often not nearly as important as how one is looked upon by others. Friendships are tight-knit and valuable. It is an insult to refuse a friend’s request. It is even less forgivable to fail a superior. These friendships are possible because everyone does his or her best to preserve and foster harmony and good feelings. The bearer of bad news may smile to soften the blow. S/he may avoid giving the news, even if s/he is merely the messenger and in no way responsible for it.

 It is very hard for Koreans to admit failure and it is devastating to lose face in Korean culture. The directness of Westerners is thoroughly unpalatable to many Koreans (especially older and/or more traditional people), whose self-esteem is often on the line. In Korea, it is of unparalleled importance to maintain kibun or the mood or feeling of being in a comfortable state of mind.

 Kibun – The word kibun has no literal translation in English. However, as a concept that permeates every facet of Korean life, it can be described in terms of pride, face, mood, or state of mind. In order to maintain a Korean’s sense of Kibun, particularly in a business context, one must show the proper respect and avoid causing loss of face. In a culture where social harmony is essential, the ability to identify another’s state of mind, often referred to as nunchi, is crucial to successful business ventures. For this reason, you must be aware of subtleties in communication, observing non-verbal and indirect cues that often suggest the true sense of what is being communicated. 

In Korea, breakage of machinery, a production line error or bad news from the head office may not be as important as the reporting of the news, which will cause loss of face for the teller and damaged kibun for the hearer. Bad news is rarely related in the first hour of the business day. If a bad report is inescapable, the evening is a better time to deliver it, when there is at least a night in which to restore kibun.

Consider the question of public reputation. The great importance placed on kibun can mean that it is more important to exhibit the external signals of politeness than other moral values, such as speaking the truth. A Westerner who knows that he is being lied to is apt to feel greatly offended by the  'perceived' rudeness of a Korean (or anyone else) who places kibun above honesty. That is, s/he feels that s/he is being treated as a fool. Meanwhile the Korean may feel that s/he is graciously lying to preserve the kibun of the 'foreigner'.   

More examples:
1. If you are a teacher, you may have students who treat you with great politeness, bowing to you when or leaving entering you class or even when meeting you on the street. However, these same students may answer their cell phone in your class, arrive late and unprepared or even with clearly plagiarised work, which are all signs of disrespect. to many non-Korean professors.
2. Your employer is more likely to fire you on Friday and tell you that you need not come back. In this way, you have saved faced by not having to return and face your failure. That the firing comes out of the blue, may be an indication that you did not pick up on subtle, non-verbal clues (nunchi).

Nunchi refers to a concept in Korean culture that involves listening and gauging the other person’s mood – often without the help of clear (to foreign nationals) signals.  It is of central importance to the dynamics of interpersonal relationships. The literal translation of nunch is "eye-measure". With nunchi, Koreans are usuing non-verbal cues to convey emotion and meaning through various means, including voice pitch and volume as well as intonation. Nunchi  also relies heavily on an understanding of one's status relative to the person with whom one is interacting. Because Korea, as with other high-context cultures caters toward in-groups that have similar experiences and expectations and from which inferences are drawn, many things are left unsaid here. The culture does the explaining, in effect.   

Both Kibun and Nunchi are very difficult concepts for non-Koreans to get the hang of and we will generally be forgiven for our ignorance of these concepts and consequent rude behaviour, especailly if we are high on the status ladder. However, one gains more than one loses by trying to understand and, as much as possible, behaving according to these rules of behaviour. 

Inhwa – Drawing from Confucian beliefs, the term inhwa signifies the Korean approach to harmony. As a collectivist society, consensus is an important element in promoting and maintaining harmony in Korea. To avoid disturbing inhwa, Koreans will often reply with a positive answer and show reluctance to give direct refusals. In Korean business culture, this manifests itself in an innate sense of loyalty, employee obedience and courteous and formal behaviour.

Confucianism - Confucianism continues to pervade the consciousness of many Koreans, shaping the Korean moral system, its national laws, and general way of life in Korea, including its business culture. The Korean values of obligation towards others, respect for family, elders and authority, loyalty, honour, and filial piety are all part of its Confucian. Although it is not seen as a religion in this increasingly Christian society, and although it is no longer part of the ‘public’ school curriculum, Confucianism still plays an important role in Korean society. Confucian ideas and ideals such as chung / loyalty; hyo / ofilial piety; in / benevolence, and sin / trust are still part of the cultural fabric and strong elements of Confucianist thought still exist in day-to-day administrative and organisational hierarchies.

Personal Relationships - In Korea, personal relations frequently take precedence over business. In order to be successful, it is vital to establish good, personal relationships based on mutual trust and benefit. Korean business culture is firmly grounded in respectful rapport and in order to establish this, it is essential that you have the right introduction and approach the company, often through a mutual friend or acquaintance at the appropriate level. Koreans spend a significant amount of time developing and fostering personal contacts. Therefore, time should be allocated for this process, particularly during the first meeting, which is frequently used to simply establish rapport and build trust. Once good, solid relations have been recognised in Korea, continuous reinforcement and maintenance is vital. One of the modern ways of developing mutual trust and cementing a personnel relationship is the practice of getting closer through alcohol. However, there is growing recognition in Korean society that getting drunk for business reasons may not really be good for business and younger, health conscious workers are opting for alternative ways of bonding when they can. A traditional practice of 'gift-giving' is also being addressed in many sectors as anti-corruptions practices and policies are increasingly being implemented.

Over and above, culturally specific concepts such as kibun and nunchi, following are a few other non-verbal indicators you may want to keep in mind:
How you dress - This sends a message, so it is important that the clothes you wear reflect your status and also that of the person with whom you are doing business. If you are a man, you should wear a tie and a suit jacket when outside the office.
When a Korean smiles - Smiling can be an expression of happiness, but it can also express shame or embarrassment. If your assistant has made a serious mistake, s/he may smile or even laugh. Don’t get upset by this reaction. It’s not because s/he find the situation amusing, on the contrary. Let the context help you interpret the smile and/or laugh.
Koreans often speak very loudly - This frequently occurs when talking on the telephone. Should you be having a business conversation over the phone with someone who sounds as though s/he is shouting, don’t take it to be an expression of anger or frustration on the caller’s part.
Telephone conversations sometimes end - In what might appear to a Westerner as an abrupt manner, Koreans (those not used to communicating with 'foreigners') often hang up when they have finished saying what they wanted to say. The practice of saying "goodbye" does not always apply in Korea.

Gender Note: The Korean business world is still, in the beginning of the 21st century, male-centered and male-dominated. However, women are beginning to gain some inroads, but the glass ceiling here is very low still. This reality does present some special challenges to foreign women who come here to work.

:enddump

Of importance here is this bit, which actually makes their actions on 31 Aug make sense:

A very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).

How to turn this to our advantage...  I'm not sure, but I figure that there might be minds more cuturally attuned than mine that can use this info even if I am drawing a blank at the moment.

Segev

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 03:01:35 PM »
Thank you very much for this. It is extremely enlightening, and I think I can start trying to subtly alter my suggestions to use it. I am not sure I am going to be great at it; "nunchi" is something I have trouble with in an American context, let alone with people deliberately trying to put forth a more amenable face than they really feel.

That said, I'm curious about the "throw a tantrum" method of regaining kibun. Is it thus not shameful to do so? It would seem the ultimate violation of it, harming that of all around you as well as displaying you've failed to maintain your own, but it supposedly restores it. Do you have any further information about this?

It could be that they're desperately trying to figure out how to either prevent or mollify our display of what they see as precisely this sort of kibun-restoring tantrum. If we can help them find a way to do so while maintaining their own kibun and make turning the IP over serve that purpose...

Vulpy

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 03:11:04 PM »
Both Kibun and Nunchi are very difficult concepts for non-Koreans to get the hang of and we will generally be forgiven for our ignorance of these concepts and consequent rude behaviour, especailly if we are high on the status ladder. However, one gains more than one loses by trying to understand and, as much as possible, behaving according to these rules of behaviour. 

This forms the core of what contemporary Western education refers to as "cultural comptence in communication": when talking to someone from a very different background, consciously adjust your style, tone, and word choice. Be willing to apologize if you make a social misstep in your ignorance. A few such mistakes may be made, but you should come out ahead overall--who doesn't appreciate someone genuinely trying to make them more comfortable?

Quote
A very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).

This, too, struck me. NCsoft may have been trying to save face for Paragon Studios--which would be a very gracious move, even if such steps are not often required and are, indeed, occasionally harmful in American business.

As for how to turn this to our advantage... It would behoove us, especially in direct communications, to remember that we are dealing with learned businesspeople. They will--and should--expect us to be comptent in those communications, to present ourselves well. If we are willing to give opportunites to keep kibun, they will likely do the same for us. In this fashion, a stronger bond might be forged.

That said, I'm curious about the "throw a tantrum" method of regaining kibun. Is it thus not shameful to do so? It would seem the ultimate violation of it, harming that of all around you as well as displaying you've failed to maintain your own, but it supposedly restores it. Do you have any further information about this?

I have never seen our efforts as a "tantrum." NCsoft's leaders owe us no kibun. Indeed, they've helped us many, many times before. But such a display could be a face-saving measure if one can continue to select their words carefully while obviously deeply distressed.

We need to make it clear to them that we speak out because we love what they have had a hand in creating. In fact, the more people that know this, the better off both parties will be.
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Segev

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 03:19:27 PM »
I think they may see this as the sort of kibun-saving tantrum, if not consciously, than on an unconscious cultural level. Just as we unconsciously see the "exhausted all options" line as being a gross insult, even now consciously knowing what may have motivated it was a desire to preserve feelings. I'm not saying it IS a tantrum; I'm trying to look at what they might be thinking.


I have always advocated being professional; this helps refine what "professional" means in this case. Yes, we absolutely can go with them-as-allies if we can frame this as our kibun being enhanced by a product they made, even if they no longer can directly participate. The most difficult part, for me, would be the "white lies," but I think careful genteelity in phrasing the truth might serve similar purposes.

The first step will be to attempt to reformat our collective reaction to their most recent message. We need to absolutely not take its face value as finality, but at the same time, we must dance with it; accept the graciousness it attempts, from their perspective, to offer, and twirl it into an extended offer to devote more energy and work harder with them to find a resolution. They have risked losing kibun in admitting the shame of failure to find a solution after "exhausting all options." Instead of rubbing their faces in the fib, we instead accept the "exhausted" adjective as the explanation and say, "we know you can do better; we have faith in you. Let us offer our energy to elevate both our Kibun!"

darkquill

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 03:23:00 PM »
What great research!
My response pretty closely resembles Segev's.

It makes me wonder if Paragon Studios' management was supposed to know they weren't doing well enough, but didn't because they didn't pick up on the right clues.  I would think "surely they would be more clear in business communications about business goals," but this wouldn't be the first thing about this situation that didn't make sense to me from a Western perspective. Then they were even nice enough to give the studios a 3-day weekend to regain kibun. . . which failed, of course.

There's not a lot in there about kibun specifically in the business-customer relationship. A customer's expression of dissatisfaction may be treated differently from a social peer's or an underling's or a superior's. I can only imagine that trying to handle the kibun of a group of thousands and thousands of customers all with slightly different reactions must be overwhelming.  In the West, we can write it off by saying "You can't please all of the people all of the time." I wonder what they have as a parallel.

Great job, StarRanger4!

QuantumHero

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 03:50:18 PM »
There is much to ponder in this thread...please return to the table nsoft.  It is your departure from the effort that shames us all.  To redeem face is to find a solution for we do not accept the name of our world written in red ink.  We must wash that hated color away...that is how we can all restore ourselves to harmony
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Segev

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2012, 03:57:52 PM »
I can't right now for a few time constraint reasons, but later on I will try to reformulate my message in the first Kibun-mentioning thread and try to write a proper formal letter from the community. I have a means of gaining semi-direct access to business people, but it has been only marginally successful so far. I think this may be a good avenue to pursue, nonetheless. The goal will be to show that we are actively attempting to help them preserve kibun but that we are NOT giving up, to invite them to take part in activities which might increase their Face (a part of kibun) along side us, and invite them to come back to the negotiating table so we can explore more innovative solutions to whatever problems got in the way this last round.

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2012, 04:04:06 PM »

Red enough?

Optimism Penguin

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2012, 04:16:41 PM »
Nice research.  I think a helpful phrase you might want to look up in addition is 체면 (pronounced cheh myun), as it is the Korean concept for face or more pertinently saving face.  I'm impressed by the depth of the explanations you found for 기분 (kibun) and 눈치 (nunchi), though to be honest it really depends on what level of society you are dealing with as to how deep those concepts stay true.  The younger generations are every so slowly becoming more western, and the older ones are digging in all the harder.  Though with business its probably a safe bet to assume the older/more traditionally focused people are running the show.

Seriously though, the saving face bit is probably a good avenue to go down if you've got the time.  I really haven't had any lately, so my contributions here have been virtually nonexistent.

Thanks for kicking ass in the research StarRanger.

-Opti   

Vulpy

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2012, 04:30:22 PM »
Red enough?

I'm...not so sure this is a productive way to express our sentiments... ^.^
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chaparralshrub

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2012, 04:51:55 PM »
Well, there is a serious question here. Do we (1) try to help NCSoft repair their kibun , or do we threaten to utterly destroy their kibun? Doing the latter could cause a major paradigm shift, or it could backfire badly.

unladenswallow

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 04:52:20 PM »
A very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).

I suppose this may explain the abruptness of the termination of the game. I would have thought that given this social concept of theirs and the fact that they are an international corporation, that they would realize that what they view as respectful in Korea may be viewed as an affront by other cultures and they should have taken our (Paragon Studios and the players) concepts of what is socially appropriate in consideration. If they didn't this is telling of them. What it says about them is up to speculation. The only guesses I have are:

they didn't pay close enough attention to our cultural morays,

they are only concerned about how they appear to their own countrymen in how they deal with us

Or they are wholy unconcerned with us

Just to be clear I'm sure there are more possibilities than the ones I pointed out above.
 
However there is the nature of the corporate world to take in consideration as well. While I'm sure local customs are adhered to the nature of how the corporate ladder is structured makes it far far easier for an uncaring sociopath to succeed rather someone who is more compassionate. I could go into more detail about this assertion but I'm assuming most people will know of what I am referring to. If not I can give a more detailed explanation if I need to.
 
I would think that it would be far more likely that we are dealing with uncaring corporate heads that only give "lip service" to their local customs such as Kibun, as corporations do here in the US and we should give this reality of the corporate world similar consideration as well.
 
Since we are all geeks and nerds here I'll use a D&D term most of us here are familiar with. Corporate executives are frequently Lawful Evil.
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Segev

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 05:35:02 PM »
I strongly disagree with the characterization that Corporate Executives are "frequently" evil of any stripe. Power does attract corrputable and corrupt people, but many executives - I would venture even the majority - are just men and women trying to do their best for themselves, their families, and their companies. Hanlon's Razor is in full effect, most of the time.

I would further venture that, especially in line with the kibun concept, characterizing them as evil is wholly and utterly counterproductive. We are not at war in a literal, guns-blazing sense, and since that won't happen in this context, we should not dehumanize anybody involved. And characterizations as blanket and black as "evil" have dehumanizing effects.

DrakeGrimm

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2012, 05:35:23 PM »
This is an amazingly huge amount of cultural information. Thank you, first of all, for digging it up.

This is far too much information for me to digest at this point, but I'll be picking it apart in the coming days. Time to Know Thy Enemy...
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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2012, 06:01:41 PM »
Well, there is a serious question here. Do we (1) try to help NCSoft repair their kibun , or do we threaten to utterly destroy their kibun? Doing the latter could cause a major paradigm shift, or it could backfire badly.

Positivity may accomplish a lot more.

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2012, 06:02:48 PM »
I strongly disagree with the characterization that Corporate Executives are "frequently" evil of any stripe. Power does attract corrputable and corrupt people, but many executives - I would venture even the majority - are just men and women trying to do their best for themselves, their families, and their companies. Hanlon's Razor is in full effect, most of the time.

Yes I am aware that many of them are just doing what is best for them and their families and are not inherently evil. However cognitive dissonance can allow for all sorts of evil or just thoughtless actions by using just following orders or doing what is best for the company as as either conformation bias or adaptive preference formation by moral people who would normally not do something comparable in their personal lives. People who work for insurance companies that search for reasons to deny people claims to save the company money even though the policy clearly states that they should be covered, even if a person may die without financial help is a good example of what I am referring to.

I would further venture that, especially in line with the kibun concept, characterizing them as evil is wholly and utterly counterproductive. We are not at war in a literal, guns-blazing sense, and since that won't happen in this context, we should not dehumanize anybody involved. And characterizations as blanket and black as "evil" have dehumanizing effects.

I made no such blanket assertion nor did I "dehumanize" anyone. I just said this should be directly considered as well.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 06:16:23 PM by unladenswallow »
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unladenswallow

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2012, 06:29:53 PM »
I'd also like to point out that these general assertions were NOT directed at the "Korean corporate world" but the corporate world in general. Which is not restricted by national boundaries.
"The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." -Thomas Paine

Vulpy

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2012, 07:47:07 PM »
they didn't pay close enough attention to our cultural morays,

they are only concerned about how they appear to their own countrymen in how they deal with us

Or they are wholy unconcerned with us

Just to be clear I'm sure there are more possibilities than the ones I pointed out above.

NCsoft's apparent decision to refocus on Korean and Chinese products, their dismissal of Paragon Studios on a Friday afternoon, and their perceived silence after the fact could all be construed as cultural blindness that approaches insular malignance by some. I am not one of those people, but I can see how the conclusion could be drawn.
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chaparralshrub

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2012, 07:55:28 PM »
Well, they do care about what we're doing, because otherwise they wouldn't be making these announcements to us. They may only care because we can potentially destroy their future profit margin, but they do care about that.

So we should keep doing what we are doing, I'd say. If we do wind up causing their western market to fall through, it might force a change in management. And if not, then at least we have some small part of our revenge.

Lock-On

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Re: Korean Kibun
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2012, 07:59:51 PM »
NCsoft's apparent decision to refocus on Korean and Chinese products, their dismissal of Paragon Studios on a Friday afternoon, and their perceived silence after the fact could all be construed as cultural blindness that approaches insular malignance by some. I am not one of those people, but I can see how the conclusion could be drawn.

Actually a few of those things can be construed as very Kibun things to do.  The Friday closure, the silence after the fact, even their announcement from yesterday, when viewed through the light of Kibun are indicators that they are strongly following their own cultural mores here.  Knowing that, gives us the ability to craft our messages to better appeal to that portion of their sensibilities.  It's something that I think may ultimately have a stronger impact on them then any financial argument.