Author Topic: A disturbing trend  (Read 12594 times)

dwturducken

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A disturbing trend
« on: October 07, 2012, 03:37:35 PM »
I have been noticing that we are beginning to lose cohesiveness.  I had all sorts of ways I wanted to express this, but directly seems to be the best.  We haven't really turned on each other in any meaningful way, but I have seen that our patience, as a group, for dissenting opinions is getting shorter, and the level of politeness with which the dissent is responded to is inversely proportional to the number of posts the offender has here.

I am not going to point fingers.  I am not going to name names.  That is not the point.  You don't have to look far to find an example, if you want one.  It's been six weeks, if I'm counting correctly.  We knew this was not going to be easy, and we knew it was not going to be quick.  We also want to add to our numbers, and if we're casting suspicion on anyone new who is expressing doubt or caution, we run the risk of not only scaring away any lurkers who were on the fence about joining in, we may sour things for some existing members.

I believe in this.  I believe that, as a community, we can make something happen, even if it's Plan Z. I don't agree with everything people say here, and I might actually point it out. It doesn't mean I think you are doing it wrong or shouldn't be here. It's a dialogue, not an indictment. I might even disagree with a dev, or someone with a Titan tag, even Tony. Even <gasp> VV. 

If that's going to be a problem, then we're going to have to find a way past it, because I'm not going anywhere, and I hope you don't, either.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

JaguarX

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2012, 03:40:18 PM »
yea I agree.

You put 10 people in a room and ask them about an opinion on something, at least one will have a different perspective.

Segev

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 03:43:30 PM »
I think there are two things we should take home from dwturducken's good observation and timely warning, here:

1) Do not assume anybody has malicious intent when they contribute ANY observation, thought, feeling, or whatever to these boards. If you feel their statements are unhelpful, express it in a supportive way and try to point them to ways they can help.

2) If somebody comes in with acrimony, do your best NOT to respond in kind. Point out why their acrimony is destructive in as gentle a way as possible, and ask them if they have any suggestions - again, gently and politely and with intent to listen - for how to improve on the issues over which they're voicing concern.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2012, 04:31:20 PM »
It seems to me like the next move is unclear. With all the other tasks we've had prior to Oct 2, everything was clearly defined. Nothing so concrete has shown up since then.

A lot of random ideas are bring tossed around. AFAIK we have 2 current "Call to Action" projects underway. One is the youtube supernote, which is automatically going to scare a lot of people because... it's singing. And the other is hitting the cons, which from what I'm seeing, is like being a cold-calling telemarketer. Maybe it'd be different if we could set up an actual booth, but that probably costs a crazy fortune.

And there's Extra Life, which is bound to get more media attention. "Even in the impending twilight of their own world, Heroes fight to save others."

I get the feeling that everyone is waiting for the next big thing that they can all immediately jump up and get to work on. And also waiting for a Seattle protest to actually go off (what happened with that?). And for Tony's research on "What makes NCsoft tick?"

Also, Plan Z may have distracted a number of people. I don't know how many because I've been trying not to get sucked into it until December. But I'm sure some have already put most of their energy into it (which is why I really wish that had been kept on hold until after armageddon).

In short. The fire isn't out. But it's stumped with looking for the best place to burn.

Scott Jackson

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2012, 06:24:37 PM »
I figured I would share my favorite technique, and it's probably occurred to a lot of other folks...

Not every post requires a response.

Basically, turn on "slow chat mode" and just let people vent or express an opinion.
Don't ignore any person; but it's ok to ignore non-constructive posts and gently steer the discussion away from them.
Build upon constructive posts.  Add your good ideas to the good ideas of others.
Spend as much or more time complimenting posters/ideas, versus pointing out flaws.
Be constructive when pointing out flaws; explain "why". Suggest specific compromise solutions and explain why they are subjectively better to you.
Find something you are passionate about, and work toward it.  Accept constructive feedback but stick to your goals and principles.

Zolgar

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2012, 07:07:35 PM »
And the other is hitting the cons, which from what I'm seeing, is like being a cold-calling telemarketer. Maybe it'd be different if we could set up an actual booth, but that probably costs a crazy fortune.


Unfortunately even having tables it's about like being a telemarketer.. People may come by and politely listen, but usually the only reason they stop by your table is to take a picture of the hot girl in a skimpy costume, or to see if you have any free stuff.

Most cons, tables cost somewhere around $200-$500 and include 2 vendor passes.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2012, 07:11:20 PM »
Unfortunately even having tables it's about like being a telemarketer.. People may come by and politely listen, but usually the only reason they stop by your table is to take a picture of the hot girl in a skimpy costume, or to see if you have any free stuff.

Most cons, tables cost somewhere around $200-$500 and include 2 vendor passes.

I still feel like the best thing we could do at a con is go into a costume contest as CoH characters, all holding prop torches. Reenact AP33. Get our minute of fame on the stage. That'd probably do something.

Getting any of the videos played during a machinima reel would be good too.

I know NOTHING of how all of this typically works though.

Zolgar

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2012, 07:23:41 PM »
I still feel like the best thing we could do at a con is go into a costume contest as CoH characters, all holding prop torches. Reenact AP33. Get our minute of fame on the stage. That'd probably do something.

Getting any of the videos played during a machinima reel would be good too.

I know NOTHING of how all of this typically works though.

Costume contests at cons are usually during the 'masquerade', which I can't speak for smaller cons.. but at San Diego Comic Con is a giant event of impossible proportions.. like the entire con.

Even /not/ in any kind of contest, on any kind of stage though, if you have a large group in costume at a con, clearly with a purpose, people will come up to you. If you were able to get a fair number of people from CoH at a con in costumes of one of their heroes (especially if they remotely looked the part*) standing together holding prop torches.. people will take notice.

The trick is getting 5+ CoH player who have costumes that look like their hero, that fit the appearance of their hero*, all at the same con.

*I'm sorry but it's a very true sentiment at cons, if you don't have the body to pull off the costume, you shouldn't be wearing it. I've seen too many Superman's who looked more like The Blob. >.>

eabrace

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2012, 07:26:05 PM »
Would be interesting if we could get a whole group of people dressed as Longbow or a group of Arachnos minions.  :)
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dwturducken

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2012, 07:34:20 PM »
The conventions near me, aside from Chicago or St. Louis, are smaller, gaming-specific conventions.  There aren't costume contests, that I've seen, and, if there are vendor tables, they are very small scale vendors. That said, it's still an excellent opportunity to network.  It's not hard to work into conversation that you think the closing is unjust. That crowd is less likely to be as indignant about the Blade and Soul discussion, but it's certainly likely to get a positive discussion going. I'm looking at Rolla's con, and there's one in either Peoria or Bloomington that I'm looking at, as well.  I think the bulk of the gaming conventions were during the summer, but I certainly think it would be a receptive crowd.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Olantern

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2012, 07:48:22 PM »
I'm posting to show my support for dwturducken's timely observation.

I've seen many statements, initiatives, and attitudes over weeks since the shutdown announcement that I think are unwise or wrongheaded, as well as plenty that I just plain disagree with.  I try to live by Thumper's Dictum in those situations: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."  (Big bunny eyes optional.)  Scott Jackson already said it best.  Now, this may be easier for me than for some others around here- I work with activists who frequently assert posititions with which I disagree strongly, so I'm used to holding my peace in the interest of harmony all around.  (The "Korean Kibun" thread was really, really interesting to me for that reason; a lot of things about the concept resonated with me, despite the fact that I have no association with Korean culture whatsoever, unless you count CoH.)

All of us make efforts to Save CoH, or to support each other, in different ways.  Even those you may view as unicorns ("Unicorns?"  Really?  ???) may be trying to help.  Hostility and paranoia serve no one.  The more ideas we have around here, the better, in my view.  This is the beginning of something, not the end.

The only times I've felt the need to post in strong opposition to anything around here are situations where someone is about to bring civil or criminal liability down on themselves or others or otherwise hurt themselves or others badly.  With those limitations, I don't see much problem with disagreement.  That's why it's called a "forum."

Visual Fallacy

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2012, 08:55:42 PM »
People who are upset often sound angry and say things that they wouldn't normally. I think you have to let people vent a little and gently turn the conversation around to something more productive.

I have to say I agree with TimtheEnchanter if I understood them correctly. There are lots of great ideas of things we can be doing but people in general often have good intentions that they never get around to. Signing a petition is easy, you're online when you hear of it, just open a new browser and paste url and sign. The unity rally was great, it was something big to be a part of, kind of if you weren't there you were missing out. The Posi tf was great, I ran a successful team both times (never got around to posting screen shots though :(  ) Sending masks and capes still a great idea but not really so much drive to get people to actually do it. I was invited to a baby shower back in August i bought a present and everything and I fully intend to send my mask and cape when i go to the post office to post the present for the baby shower  :-[ . The note thing I don't quite get and it sounds like I need to make a recording or video or even hold a note, none of which i'm comfortable doing i'm afraid. The 'cons' thing sounds great and I'd love to attend one and meet other CoH players but I don't live close enough to any reasonable sized ones and it would be difficult to travel. Letter writing, um my printers out of ink, and what do you mean there is such a thing as paper and pens? :o

I know all that sounds like a bunch of excuses but that's how people are. I've stood in Atlas 33 the last couple of days (got my hugged by Detra sticker to prove it) and each time i'm there I've counted max of about 20-25 people. I know people are doing it on other servers but this is virtue I'm talking about. I know many people are wanting to play the game rather than standing on the steps, most the time that's what I've been doing. Still 25 people is a small amount for the amount of people that play the game and would like to do something to save it. I'm not complaining about people I'm just saying people need to be encouraged to support with things that are easy for them that they want to be involved in. In game events costume competitions, games, races, tf days, things that they can do in game and have fun doing that they don't have to go out of their way to do but will keep a positive atmosphere.

And then while we have their attention tell them of the out of game stuff that is going on, letter writing, posting masks etc.

Anyway I have at least stopped putting off one thing, I posted after just reading for a few weeks

dwturducken

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2012, 09:13:38 PM »
The thread on the concept of Kibun is one I'm watching.  I was all for it and like that we are thinking in terms of trying to relate to the other side in a way that will resonate, but, as the thread progressed, I started to get a vibe.  I can't really elaborate, because I'm not able to articulate it, but I'm watching it to see where it goes.

As for venting, I'm all for it, but the civility is starting to slip.  I'm not trying to come on like a stern parent, telling everyone to watch it or I'll pull the forum over to the side of the road, but we were more open to converting dissent.

Also, welcome, VF.  I'm glad you decided to speak up. DrakeGrimm has popcorn, and I'll be passing out mojitos to try to lighten everyone up. :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Heat Guard

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2012, 09:25:55 PM »

Also, welcome, VF.  I'm glad you decided to speak up. DrakeGrimm has popcorn, and I'll be passing out mojitos to try to lighten everyone up. :)
So, you think VF is from Pinn?

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2012, 10:21:11 PM »
If things start getting bad, I'll start tugging the leash on redside initiatives. But once Dec 1 happens, unless we've heard something positive, I'm letting go of the leash. I've got some thoughts of my own that the Rogue Isles might want to hear.

QuantumHero

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2012, 10:38:33 PM »
I also one who is struggling and watching the kibun thread  ;)

This is a rough week for everyone the initial ra ra warm and fuzzy has worn off...now we know this is going to be a long and difficult slog...we are all trying to cope however we can and realizing just how much this world and community mean to us.

There are plans in the works but no real immediate activities to take part in and there is a lot of waiting.

When I can't deal anymore I go watch COH video and remember no matter what that much will still exist and all of you will to because this community is stronger then this.  Or I write a new song/poem - some of them are very very angry and will only appear if we reach a very dark hour indeed...others are hopeful and may be worthy of polishing up.

My husband and I are both struggling with this situation (we are both coh gamers although he has yet to officially join titan) and yet we must go about our daily lives without lashing out or breaking into tears...here in this forum and on the game we all understand for this village knows the pain we all feel.

It is going to get harder before it gets easier....people including me are going to lose our perspective from time to time, be blinded by emotions, or acting like a block of ice because feeling hurts to much at that moment.

For many of us the game is our prefered way to cope with pain and stress be that emotional or physical...it is our renewal, or escape, and a place where almost everyone is a friend...and we are all in pain because this death is to quick and to short for proper preperation yet to long for a quick catharsis.  We can visit the dying loved one in the hospital but there is no last great adventure to plan only a series of visits while we fight desperately on the side for a miracle.

What hurts worse is the "doctor" in question has many more treatments to try but they put our world in hospice because they won't take our insurance.

We are going to try our damndest here to change that...and help in any way you can.  But meanwhile go do your ingame bucket lists just in case, hold torches, do the events, go on missions, use sentinal plus to save your characters even if it is only to give them a proper eulogy <sniffle> because we may just pull of a miracle even after november 30th there is always a chance that we save even a tiny piece of this world....and if not cling to whatever lifeboat we have be it videos, chat rooms, screen caps, these forums, songs...or work on plan z...because we ARE going to have a future.  Remember breaking us means they win...we will not let them win we are a community that fights monsters and saves or takes over the world.  We are also a community that understands hard choices, redemption, and shades of grey.

So when someone falters or needs a helping hand, whether its a new member, or an old one...don't be afraid to listen to them vent....give them a hug, tell them you hear them, gently redirect negativity into healing or constructive activity.  We know each other pretty well at this point we all have strengths and weaknesses, good days and bad, tolerance for stress, thresholds of rage and sorrow...anytime you run out someone always has a "hope" inspiration waiting :'( :)

All we have is each other, we are family, we are the survivors of Paragon and we have not yet BEGUN to fight.
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DrakeGrimm

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2012, 12:33:50 AM »
I'm a grumpy bastard. I'm the first to admit it, too. That said, I've tried to pour IMMENSE positive energy into this project. Those of you who also suffer from chronic depression--medical or otherwise--know what a chore that is.

So when someone comes in and contributes nothing constructive and attempts to derail threads by telling us we're all doing it wrong in a non-constructive and vaguely condescending manner, I will probably smack them upside the head. >.>


Does that mean I'm getting sick of everyone? Nope. I love you all like family, even when you're acting like a unicorn. :P
Family needs to be able to look at each other and go "you're being a dick, knock it off" now and then, though.


I'm still committed to this fight. I'm still committed to this community. I'm still committed to all of you, and even at our most disparate times, I am still proud and honored to stand with you.
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emu265

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2012, 12:48:54 AM »
I'm a grumpy bastard. I'm the first to admit it, too. That said, I've tried to pour IMMENSE positive energy into this project. Those of you who also suffer from chronic depression--medical or otherwise--know what a chore that is.

So when someone comes in and contributes nothing constructive and attempts to derail threads by telling us we're all doing it wrong in a non-constructive and vaguely condescending manner, I will probably smack them upside the head. >.>


Does that mean I'm getting sick of everyone? Nope. I love you all like family, even when you're acting like a unicorn. :P
Family needs to be able to look at each other and go "you're being a dick, knock it off" now and then, though.


I'm still committed to this fight. I'm still committed to this community. I'm still committed to all of you, and even at our most disparate times, I am still proud and honored to stand with you.

This is how I feel.

I agree with the OP in that dissent is being tolerated less and less... That's not good.  But, in general, people don't want to feel their energy is being wasted because some troll consumes the conversation.  I understand negative response to dissent.  It's not unwarranted. 

But everyone needs to realize that dissent and trolling are two different things.  Just learn to see the difference.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2012, 12:55:29 AM »
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

chaparralshrub

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Re: A disturbing trend
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2012, 01:06:27 AM »
Focus, people. We have a citymultiverse to save.

In fact, we may have more than one, since Champions Online, although inferior to CoH, hasn't been doing so well, financially. Let's be heroes and try to save them both, shall we? :)

Or let's be villains and conquer them both, make them ours. Of course that means saving them, too, huh?

By the way, did you hear that Lord Recluse went to heaven to try to smackdown the gods so that he could bring Statesman back to help save the day?