Author Topic: "no reason" and no rights  (Read 22939 times)

Aquashock

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2012, 04:55:52 PM »
You can actually still find the original fanfic (Masters of the Universe ... I'm not kidding) floating on the internet. /tangent

Colette

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2012, 06:19:27 PM »
Good stuff, all.

...utopian visions of a copyright-less future or of "cultural ownership" of icons because, um, well, we don't want the heirs of their creators who still use them as trademarks to make money on them...they're begging for disaster."

"Yes.. because.. artists should not be able to make any money off their works."

"As an aspiring author, yes, I'd like to keep the ability to make money off of it. Thanks."

Well naturally you do. But be careful not to fall into the straw-man fallacy of false attribution. I stated that we need to move into a post-copyright world. It does not necessarily follow that a creator will not be rewarded for his or her hard work in this environment, so please do not attribute any such sentiment to me, or imply that I believe the Ideal would require that. I believe the 'net immediately makes every published idea de facto public domain. Our challenge is to ensure proper repayment within this new environment.

"Copyright in it's modern form though, is kinda stupid."

I prefer outdated, but yes.

"Before Star Wars, George Lucas was a nobody."

In this case, I'm referring to 20th Century Fox (although Lucas earns no points from me for failing to cite his influence.) At the time Lucas was writing ('75-'76), DC aka National Periodicals was being acquired by Warner Bros., but was not yet a part of the Time-Warner juggernaut.

"You might want to check up on Joseph Campbell's collected works, especially Hero With A Thousand Faces. "

Yup yup! Right here on my shelf alongside Power of Myth, both well worn. Highly recommended.

"50 Shades of Grey has all but made me give up on writing."

Don't. There's an enormous dfference between successful writing and good writing. Success is great, but if you're writing for "success," you're honestly in it for the wrong reasons. Don't measure your work against 50, Twilight, Left Behind, or any number of penny-dreadfuls that win commercial success today, and are forgotten or paraded as camp a decade from now.

"When should they legally become part of the culture at large and not just property? Because they already have become a part of it a long time ago...?"

See, now that is an excellent question. You get it. Allow me to try to craft a better one...

We live in an age where the message (a song, cinema, a story, a picture, a computer game) has escaped from the media (CD, film, book, canvas or cartridge) and exists as infinitely reproducible pure information. This has led to theft (piracy) on the audience's part, and a misguided belief that all entertainment should be free. (Emphasis to rebut the false attribution.)

On the producer's side, we have big, powerful corporations that steal (rip-off) artists' work with relative impunity. They even steal from each other.

The small, independent artist, who in my opinion is the real creative vitality, is caught between these titanic forces, relatively powerless against infringement.

Is this the culture we want? What kind of culture do we want? What kind of copyright laws will best cultivate the culture we want?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 07:27:41 PM by Colette »

Colette

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2012, 06:35:08 PM »
A quick additional thought.

Last night I watched Joss Whedon's The Cabin in the Woods. I don't want to spoil it for you, but let me simply say he infringes mightily upon copyright, yet he does not plagiarize. How is this possible? He has a literal horde of expies of beloved, easily identified creations, but he never pretends to have created them! He renders affectionate, even touching salutes to others' creations (primarily Sam Raimi and HP Lovecraft) while bringing plenty of his own ideas to the party. He knows the line between homage and plagiarism and never crosses it.

His film is, I think, very relevant to our discussion.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 07:16:07 PM by Colette »

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2012, 07:29:15 PM »
"50 Shades of Grey has all but made me give up on writing."

Don't. There's an enormous dfference between successful writing and good writing. Success is great, but if you're writing for "success," you're honestly in it for the wrong reasons.

It's more of a case of what is actually attractive now at all. Believe me, except in rare cases, I'm typically someone who tries to tell a story that people need to hear, even if it isn't one they want to hear. I very strongly agree with the quote from V, that "Artists use lies to tell the truth." The big problem I'm running into now, is that we seem to be approaching a point where things that are getting lots of attention, will not even be classifiable as stories ;)

Quote
We live in an age where the message (a song, cinema, a story, a picture, a computer game) has escaped from the media (CD, film, book, canvas or cartridge) and exists as infinitely reproducible pure information. This has led to theft (piracy) on the audience's part, and a misguided belief that all entertainment should be free. (Emphasis to rebut the false attribution.)

I think the piracy issue is not really an issue. Corporations have made it an issue, only because they see it as an opportunity to make more money. The fact of the matter is, most people who pirate media, do not have the money to pay for it anyway. And since files on a HD have no production cost, (compared to a physical object that can be stolen) there is no money being lost. Really they just want to cash in on the lawsuits. They know very well they're not really losing money. If anything they're probably gaining it as a result. I can't tell you how many times I've discovered artists though one of their songs being bootlegged through an amateur music video on youtube.

P.S. since Star Wars was brought up in the topic of, "How long before something becomes public domain: I feel that Star Wars should be public domain now, moreso on principle rather than legality. Because it's clear to me now that Lucas Ltd no longer cares about the IP, beyond the money it brings in. They've sent it to Hell in a handbasket. We'd be seeing higher quality SW media now from the general public, than we do from the official IP holder. In fact, we already do in some cases, just from the non-profit projects.

Though I can't rag on Uncle George too much, since he did go out of his way to get Fox let all of us play in his galactic sandbox as much as we want, as long as we don't try to sell anything we make.

ROBOKiTTY

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2012, 07:38:17 PM »
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 11:20:13 PM by ROBOKiTTY »
Have you played with a KiTTY today?

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2012, 07:50:21 PM »
Robokitty, you just hit on something that I've always wondered about regarding another similar institution, in that almost everything is based on something else. Example: simple machines.

Just imagine what life would be like if somehow the patent system had been developed before technology was.

Can you imagine? Needing a license to build a fire or a pulley? Had the system existed in the beginning, that's exactly where we would be, and our technological advances wouldn't be a 100th of where they are, because every single advancement in tech somehow requires the incorporation of these primitive tools, much in the same way that all modern stories utilize major plot devices of ancient ones.

Zolgar

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2012, 08:04:17 PM »
Colette, I'll just say that before we can have the copyrightless future you desire, we have to reprogram at least 80% of the 'technologically advanced' population >.>

Colette

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2012, 08:19:19 PM »
...most people who pirate media, do not have the money to pay for it anyway."

A point worth considering.

"I very strongly agree with the quote from V for Vendetta, that 'artists use lies to tell the truth.' The big problem I'm running into now, is that we seem to be approaching a point where things that are getting lots of attention, will not even be classifiable as stories."

Let me answer with another Moore quote. "We do not do this thing because we are allowed. We do it because we are compelled."

I feel that Star Wars should be public domain now, moreso on principle rather than legality. Because it's clear to me now that Lucasfilm Ltd no longer cares about the IP, beyond the money it brings in."

Culturally, I agree (and submit my cherished copy of Abywan's Star Wars Revisited as exhibit A.) Financially I do not. Therein lies the crux: do we as a people value money more than culture?

"Every creative work builds on the body of work that came before."

Indeed! Our world would not be richer had the Danish author of Amleth maintained his copyright against Shakespeare, or if Tolkien had not had access to Wagner's Ring Cycle, or if William Hearst had successfully blocked Orson Welles from fashioning a myth from his very life story, or if Madam Stoker had successfully burned every copy of Nosferatu.

"Can you imagine? Needing a license to build a fire or a pulley?"

Quite right.

"I'll just say that before we can have the copyrightless future you desire..."

Not what I desire, the 'net has already brought it into being. Copyright is de facto obsolete. I'm simply pointing out the elephant in the living room.

"...we have to reprogram at least 80% of the 'technologically advanced' population."

Really? Howso? Looks to me they're already ahead of the curve. Please expand upon this.

"How have we come to this perverted neo-feudalism?"

A fine and useful question. More importantly, how do we find our way out of it?

Let us begin by admitting we as a people are unhappy with copyright law as it exists. Further, let us recall that ideas are bulletproof (Moore again!) and may only be defeated by superior ideas (my addition.) Let us endeavour to envision a superior culture, one fully in harmony with the new fluidity of ideas, and attempt to enunciate the laws that would bring that superior culture into being.

I'm delighted to see so many open and vibrant minds attracted by the possibilities.

Zolgar

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2012, 08:38:57 PM »
There are far too many people who just plain don't care, and worse plenty who are more than willing to completely rip people off.

Look at how much of the population is more than happy to st- sorry 'pirate' copyrighted works when it's illegal? The only reason it's illegal is copyright, because it's unauthorized distribution. Take away the copyright and transferring of digital copies of a work is 100% legal. If you can legally get something free.. why would you pay for it? There's a small fraction of us who would prefer to pay the original creator of the works.. but we're unfortunately in an ever shrinking minority.

Furthermore, no copyright also means that plagiarism is also no longer a legal issue. There is no legal recourse anymore, so plagiarism isn't restricted to being careful or having the money to back it.. It's open to anyone who wants to.. Get someone who's got certain connections, they take a book but a nobody author and change the name on the cover, with their network of connections people will quickly believe that they were the original author.. so those people who prefer giving the creators money will be giving the wrong person the money.

Copyright protects the artist's investment in to their work- without it art stops becoming financially viable, at least until we change how people think.

Colette

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2012, 08:55:25 PM »
Hmm...

Zolgar, I remember a scene from a film. I don't recall the name, but this scene stood out as worth remembering. (If anyone can help...?)

An aristocrat of the monarchy and an advocate of the republic are riding in a carriage. The aristocrat gestures to the grubby, homely peasants laboring in the streets and says something like, "can you imagine the consequences if your dreams were ever put into practice, if any of those unlettered louts was allowed any voice in government at all?"

I'm not accusing you of being an elitist. But I do believe, when offered a fair system of trade, and good work by artists they admire and respect, that our 'technologically advanced population' just might pleasantly surprise you.

But then, perhaps I'm naive. I have no evidence either way.

Zolgar

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2012, 08:59:49 PM »
They might surprise me.. but to be honest nothing I have seen so far indicates they would. Then again, I have a rather dim view of humanity as a whole. >.>

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2012, 09:02:17 PM »
Who was it that released a "free" album in the past couple years as an experiment? I want to say it was Green Day, but I didn't find any reference to it. Basically they released it at no charge, and gave the people the option to pay however much they wanted. The results were posted, and they didn't paint a pretty picture. I feel like it was somewhere around 25% who actually paid something, and a finite number who paid anything close to the normal price of a CD.

P51mus

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2012, 09:15:46 PM »
Radiohead did the first, I think.  Not sure of any statistics on it.

eabrace

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2012, 09:25:32 PM »
Radiohead did the first, I think.  Not sure of any statistics on it.
In Rainbows
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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2012, 09:42:16 PM »
I daresay that we have at least one person who can speak with a little authority on what happens when you let your books go into free libraries...

Baen does QUITE a bit of that. Several of Mercedes Lackey's books are in their free library, or included on their (DRM-free) e-book CDs in other books. :)
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #75 on: October 13, 2012, 09:54:17 PM »
Reading more about the "In Rainbows" album... couldn't find the chart I saw so long ago, but while there was a very high rate of 'theft' of the album, it still managed to outsell their previous ones.

ukaserex

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2012, 01:03:29 AM »

You just brought up an example of how business is already too powerful. Take a look at how Facebook is not only ignoring, but admittedly harboring bullying. They allow bullies and even bully groups to run rampant, and it's next to impossible for authorities to step in and accomplish something no matter how bad it gets. (it's also an example of the choicelessness I mentioned above, because teens are stuck with the choice of either using Facebook or having no social life, which means they have to open themselves up to constant bullying). But in some parts of Europe, trolling and E-bullying is now punishable by law.


Umm...I know I'm probably too far beyond my teen years, but teens do NOT need facebook to have a thriving social life. All they need is a decent personality. I'm sure a cell phone with unlimited texting plan is helpful, but they don't need that either.
They can talk in class, pass notes and between classes and before and after school the same way we did in the old days.

Silly Facebook. So intrusive, passing my communications to every vendor in the world for profit. They're even worse than Google, Bing and Yahoo.
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2012, 01:59:25 AM »
Umm...I know I'm probably too far beyond my teen years, but teens do NOT need facebook to have a thriving social life. All they need is a decent personality. I'm sure a cell phone with unlimited texting plan is helpful, but they don't need that either.

Having a decent personality in teenhood without social networking is akin to having a decent product with no marketing plan.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2012, 02:00:29 AM »
"don't applaud, just throw money"

Speaking a someone who must make a living from her intellectual property, obviously I don't want copyright ended.  But it seriously needs to be modified.  I really do not think that any for-profit corporation should be allowed to continue to hold a copyright ad infinitum.  (Note that I did say for-profit.  I think there is a good case for allowing indefinite holding of a copyright by certain non profit corporations.  The copyright for Peter Pan is held for Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital, and I don't think anyone would object to them continuing to get money from the work.)  I think that copyright protection should end on the death of the copyright holder's immediate heirs. 

I think there ought to be legal provision for not-for-profit derivative work under Creative Commons.  Frankly I am not at all threatened by the existence of fanfiction, and I think any writer who is probably ought to talk to a professional about self-worth issues.

But I do need some protection.  The more e-readers there are out there, the more pirated e-books threaten my ability to make a living.  I don't think it's reasonable to charge a crapton of money for older books; I think people ought to price those things reasonably enough that people can pick them up as impulse purchases.  I am not at all happy that Amazon, as the 900 lb gorilla, is essentially dictating to the industry that they can't do that.  Right now Amazon has bots that search the net looking for e-books you have listed with them that are at a lower price-point than theirs, and forcing you to pull the books from their rival or they will pull your books from Amazon, and that's just wrong.
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Colette

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Re: "no reason" and no rights
« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2012, 04:00:27 AM »
"I don't want copyright ended.  But it seriously needs to be modified."

Thank'ya for the professional's view, VV. As you can see, I've put a lot of thought into this subject.