I feel petty, but...

[Randomvector]

Edited the wikipedia entry on NCsoft to add that it is the #mmokiller on twitter.

[dwturducken]

I can't find the page, but the sentence needs a link to the list, like in the words "game closures," or something.  I'll keep digging.

[Atlantea]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCsoft

[emu265]

I think it's well enough done.  Missing an o in "only" though.  Near the top of the section on Paragon Studios and CoH's closure.

[Knightslayer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCsoft

Nice updates.

[Kosmos]

If you do any more updates on it you could add that NCsoft lost the appeal, and another $4M, in the Garriott case. The notice that they were appealing the first decision is the last sentence before the CoH entry. Better to lead into the CoH section on another down note for them.

[Kosmos]

On a tangent, it says NCsoft currently has an A+ rating with the Better Business Bureau. The BBB rating criteria are (taken from the BBB Wikipedia entry)...

Build Trust ("maintain a positive track record in the marketplace"), Advertise Honestly, Tell the Truth, Be Transparent, Honor Promises, Be Responsive (address marketplace disputes), Safeguard Privacy (protect consumer data) and Embody Integrity.

I think the first five of those should definitely take a hit with the CoH closure.

I suggested to a number of friends that they buy boxed sets to restore VIP status after Sept 1. Some succeeded, some didn't get their boxes until after Sept 19th. As far as I know NCsoft made no effort to pass information down the retail chain to let stores know they were going to invalidate all CoH codes on the 19th (and even if they did, 19 days warning seems like pretty short notice to go all the way down to the retail level). That seems to be a legitimate BBB complaint. I didn't get a penny in refund for a boxed set code I applied August 10th. Which seems like it should be a legitimate complaint too (though trivial).

I guess I'm feeling petty today too; I think NCsoft should get their BBB complaint total bumped a few thousand. They definitely don't deserve top grades for honesty and transparency, and getting a top grade for trustworthiness is just laughable.

[Victoria Victrix]

I've filed BBB grievances before.  It's easy and can be done online.  I do believe that canceling our product out from under us with no warning at all would constitute grounds for a grievance.

[Knightslayer]

I've filed BBB grievances before.  It's easy and can be done online.  I do believe that canceling our product out from under us with no warning at all would constitute grounds for a grievance.

A possible call to action?

[Codewalker]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who saw the subject line and thought

"I feel petty.... Oh so petty..."

[Soundtrack]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who saw the subject line and thought

"I feel petty.... Oh so petty..."

Is your name Maria, by chance?

[Codewalker]

I was thinking more Jack Nicholson and Adam Sandler, but whatever works.

[dwturducken]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who saw the subject line and thought

"I feel petty.... Oh so petty..."

First thing that popped into my head.

[Zolgar]

I thought the very same thing.. (about the 'I feel petty')

Also, whoever edited the Wikipedia entry to have the note about the loss of the appeal in the RG case, it's lacking references and kinda looks super unprofessional, which can come back and bite us on the ass something fierce.

We obviously have a vendetta against NCSoft. If Wikipedia's people get the idea that we're using Wikipedia to promote said vendetta, they will start deleting any changes made in regards to NCSoft and the CoH closure.

I am part of another group that dealt with that crap for years, some of you may have heard of the (now retired) musician Doctor Steel? A few of his fans took his person too seriously and kept doing the Wikipedia article about that, and about his goal of taking over the world etc. and Wikipedia would delete it when they did that (valid), but it got to the point that people were uploading the same article as soon as Wikipedia deleted it.. and finally Wikipedia hit the point that no matter what the article was, if it was about Doctor Steel it got deleted.. it took us years to actually get a real, legitimate article up to stay.
Obviously, we don't want to piss Wikipedia off the same way. :p

[omegaultima]

back to the tangent, BBB complaints seem to be a good idea, if for nothing else than the fact that they're outright lying to us all about their efforts to sell the game.

[Kosmos]

Also, whoever edited the Wikipedia entry to have the note about the loss of the appeal in the RG case, it's lacking references and kinda looks super unprofessional, which can come back and bite us on the ass something fierce.

This is the reason I didn't update it myself; I simply don't know the Wikipedia standards and practices.

Possible reference links on the appeal finding...

Shack News (this one seems most to the point)
Gamepolitics' article on the decision
Industry Gamers
Gamasutra's article (not as clean or concise as the previous three)
411mania.com's brief notice (strangely, this is under Film Reviews on a pop culture site rather than on a gaming site)

[Kosmos]

There is also The findlaw article which explains in detail stuff as well. Sure, it is full of legalese, but it is as close as to the horses mouth as you are going to get.

I think two references would be the way to go: one of the concise game news sites and then the legalese. The court documents are interesting reading and add weight to the reference and should most certainly be there, but lack value to the casual reader. So I think having one of the more user friendly references as well would be good.

[Randomvector]

Added the findlaw article as a reference/citation.
It is the most "authoritative" for the extra 4 million in damages.

[Solaris]

Well to the OP, hey, you wrote the truth. No shame there =]

[malonkey1]

There is also The findlaw article which explains in detail stuff as well. Sure, it is full of legalese, but it is as close as to the horses mouth as you are going to get.

Uh, I thought we weren't supposed to look gift horses in the mouth?

[Kaiser Tarantula]

Uh, I thought we weren't supposed to look gift horses in the mouth?

Different horse mouths we're talking here.  You're thinking of "looking a gift horse in the mouth" while cmgangrel is talking about "hearing it straight from the horse's mouth."

I'd get into the details of the fables responsible for those idioms, but that would be a bit of a derail.

[Quinch]

No, the fable about the deer ale is a completely different one...

{dives for cover}

[Felderburg]

Also, whoever edited the Wikipedia entry to have the note about the loss of the appeal in the RG case, it's lacking references and kinda looks super unprofessional, which can come back and bite us on the ass something fierce.

That was me. I didn't have time to add the references, so I left it for someone else to do. Looks like people have found the references and added at least one, so that's good.

[Segev]

No, the fable about the deer ale is a completely different one...

{dives for cover}

*rolls up news paper and starts looking for Quinch*

Now, now, if he's asking for ale, you shouldn't roll up a newspaper. He obviously just needs to quinch his thirst. 

[Twisted Toon]

Now, now, if he's asking for ale, you shouldn't roll up a newspaper. He obviously just needs to quinch his thirst. 

I get yelled at when I do that. 

[shadeovblack]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who saw the subject line and thought

"I feel petty.... Oh so petty..."

I feel vicious, malicious, and cruel...

[healix]

Shade, you inspired me LOL

I feel petty,
Oh, so petty,
I feel vicious, malicious, and cruel!
And I pity
Anyone who thinks that I'm a fool..

Fee like maiming,
Feel like harming
It's alarming how much harning I feel
And so petty
That I hardly can believe I'm real.

See the petty girl in that mirror there:
Who can that bitter girl be?
Such a petty face,
Such a petty dress,
Such a petty scowl,
Such a petty me!

I feel scummy
And deflated,
Feel like shaking my fist in the air,
For I'm dissed..
By NCSoft...NOT FAIR!

La la la la . . .

I feel petty,
Oh, so petty
That the city is taken from me.
A committee
Should be organized to set it free.

La la la la . . .

I feel dizzy,
In a tizzy,
I think it would be perfectly fine,
If the head man,
Of  NCSoft  would just resign!

Such a petty me!

[Kheprera]

That is awesome.

[Victoria Victrix]

You know this is one of the things that distinguishes the community here on Titan.  Instead of being constantly stuck in a downer and a rage pool, every so often someone comes in with something clever and funny like this and lets us all have a good laugh, then we can get back to work feeling rejuvenated.

Well done, my friend.

[healix]

VV....your post just made my heart smile, and I am honored. Thank you; I have always enjoyed making people laugh.

 

[dwturducken]

Angels and ministers of grace, defend us.

[Roderick]

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but in the opening paragraph of the Wikipedia article, it says that NCSoft is a publisher of MMO games, then goes on to list six games in their examples... Two of which are closed*, and one which is closing.

I would assume that these games were picked because they were representative of the company, just like someone talking about Blizzard would mention Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo. In fact, in recent years, most of NCSoft's promotional material has had characters from Lineage II, City of Heroes and Aion on them, often with Statesman front and center. That may be because I'm seeing material with a North American bias - Korean material may not put such a focus on States - but it does say to me that City is either their biggest, or one of their biggest products in the NA market.

*I counted Lineage as a closed game, because it is, in NA. But I think I heard that it still has servers running in Korea? Either way, the article should either say "Lineage II" or "the Lineage series".

[Ampithere]

Uh, I thought we weren't supposed to look gift horses in the mouth?

Technically that's a literal statement. When someone gave you a horse as a gift it was considered rude to check the health of the horse by looking in its mouth. Doing so implied that you did not trust the person in question to give you a healthy horse. 

[Codewalker]

*I counted Lineage as a closed game, because it is, in NA. But I think I heard that it still has servers running in Korea? Either way, the article should either say "Lineage II" or "the Lineage series".

Lineage I is not only still active in Korea, but IIRC makes as much or more as Lineage II does. It's one of their more popular games there and accounts for a significant chunk of NCSoft's revenues.

[JaguarX]

Edited the wikipedia entry on NCsoft to add that it is the #mmokiller on twitter.

Uhm on a small note, I think somone came in behind you and removed MMOkiller statement on the page.

Not sure if someone beat me to it to pointing that out, I only skimmed a few replies.

I know it was there earlier as I hada decent laugh about it but now it seems to be gone.

[eabrace]

From the page's history:

(cur | prev) 12:50, 1 November 2012‎ 199.197.130.216 (talk)‎ . . (18,844 bytes) (-247)‎ . . (Removed line from introduction paragraph that was disrupting the neutrality of this article. There is a conscious effort to smear NCSoft in progress from this forum - http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6034.0.html) (undo)

Honestly, I'm surprised it took that long.

[Segev]

Well, it would seem the correct response would be to properly edit the article then to reflect that this effort exists and why.

[eabrace]

You'll need good citations in order for it to stick.  And not all sources are considered neutral and citation worthy by wikipedia regulars.

[Segev]

At which point it's probably best to take the risky but high road of preparing the edits, getting ready to submit them, and then contacting the guys who RUN wikipedia to let them know what they are, what sources are being used, and why, and warn that there is likely to be a wiki war over it if they don't step in. Note that you're sending this note out of respect for them and their site, but that while you have a personal stake in the information getting out there, you want it to be true and accurate and you do not want those who would suppress truth to use "well they have a vendetta and I won't admit I work for NCSoft's PR department" as an excuse to suppress it.

In doing this, you invite the wikipedia moderators to nip a problem in the bud, you show them that you're NOT trying to start a wiki war that will cause them hours of hassle, and respect them enough to let them judge the merits of your reporting of fact. It's risky, because they might take the lazy and/or corrupt route of siding with not changing it (corrupt is a strong charge; it's not really LIKELY the wikipedia directors are somehow personally affiliated with NCSoft), but if you do it right, the payoff is that they might make the article moderated AFTER allowing or putting in your change, making it hard to impossible to strip the change out.

[dwturducken]

First of all, someone has added a couple of paragraphs about the closure of CoH and Paragon, riddled with references (props if you're reading this). Second, I'm looking for the Wikipedia page that lists the closed MMOs, because it had more like 21, of which only 4 (not counting CoH) were listed. One more thing to double fact-check before we start posting information.

[Lily Barclay]

From the page's history:

Honestly, I'm surprised it took that long.

Doesn't it hurt them to link here? Kinda glad they did it. More visibility.

[Randomvector]

The IP address that indicated this is a smear campaign is registered to Corning Incorporated. Wonder who in Corning cares that much? Eh, it was petty and I am going to let it lie. Better to include more robust information anyway.

[JaguarX]

The IP address that indicated this is a smear campaign is registered to Corning Incorporated. Wonder who in Corning cares that much? Eh, it was petty and I am going to let it lie. Better to include more robust information anyway.

I heard of them from somewhere. If I'm not mistaken they are some glass and ceramic maker and make stuff for things like navigation sreens and other diplay media like cellphones.

Might not be actually the corporatio that did so but someone on a work computer on wikipedia and edited.

Remember on Wikipedia there are some people that basically go page to page looking for errors, biases (real and fake) and edit stuff as a hobby. That particular person edited a wide range of pages and alot of them within the past few days so it doesnt seem to me an account created specifically looking for that page but someone that is doing their edit rounds and it just so happens to be that page.

I think if that comment stayed a little bit longer than, it would have been easy to tell the other side versus just some random editor.

But the odd thing is that I almost forgot is that he did mention about the "smear" campaign here. I dont see the smear campaign. If it was the old forum I could see that conclusion can be made from an outsider point of view, where every turn seems to be more hate about NCSoft and rightfully so from a gamer standpoint. But the smear has been very minimal here it seems. A little snarky(sarcastic) in some cases, but not smear.  This could mean a few things. It could mean that word is getting out to people and he could be some guy that came and or heard about this effort read the wrong posts and edited. Or it could have been someone that is opposing us. Although I would assume if it was the opposition, they would have tried to wipe all traces of Titan off that page, from everything to the mention of the celebrity support to the removing the cohtitan.com as a reference stating it's not a reliable source.

[eabrace]

Really, it just comes down to the edit having been made without citation from a reliable neutral source of information.  If a proper citation is included that demonstrates that the edit wasn't just made to made NCsoft look bad.

[The Fifth Horseman]

All of us are angry at NCsoft to a smaller or greater extent, but letting that spill over to editing their Wikipedia page will not get us anything.
Best case scenario, overtly emotionally charged edits will be reverted.
Worst case scenario, the page will be locked so that only administrators will be able to modify it.
Neither of those achieves anything but reduce our credibility and paint us in bad light.
We are better than that.

We don't need to be agressive or biased to hurt NCsoft. Information can be a weapon on its' own - all we have to do is objectively present the known facts.

Try something like this:

The impending shutdown of City of Heroes marks the closure of a fifth NCsoft-owned MMO in as many years, totalling one third of their former range of MMOs. With that, the company has directly terminated one fourth of known defunct MMO titles. [insert references here]

Whether or not you then use it to write that "this fact led some of City of Heroes' fans to refer to it with the derogatory nickname MMOKiller" is entirely up to you.

I recall there was an official refusal to comment on the subject ( http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5781.0.html ). That is something we can use.

While we're at this, the list of MMORPGs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MMORPGs ) may use a few updates regarding NCSoft's games (Exteel and Auto Assault are missing from the list, CoX shutdown is not even mentioned).

[JaguarX]

I personally think the MMOKiller moniker is redundant and not needed for that article  of a neutral Wiki entry. The numbers stated there speaks more of that conclusion more than anything and keeps things simple while getting the point across.

Because if a challenge to the fact that "fans are calling NCsoft MMOkiller" then more thna likey it will have to be clarified by what fans, are we talking about majority of the fans or just a group of fans, do those fans that call MMOKiller speak for the opinions of the entire fan base, is it a bias due to the closing that they got that name, why isnt the other MMO makers that are responsible for the other 3/4 of MMO closings not called MMOKillers, and etc.

With that statement based off fact, the question might be, "citation needed" and then bam, hit them with the source and then not much to dispute when the math is done.

As Fifth mentioned we do not want to ruin this potential jewel of getting the word out about what is going on by coming off as biased or putting information in there that is the pure intent to get back at NCSoft for closing a game or worse. The best way to "hurt" NCSoft is with pure truth. Even if they can come up with a good reason to shut down their past games, the fact that remains is that still they shut down 1/3rd of their game offerings and 1/4th of defunct games. That will hurt them more than anything while at the same time building our credibility. Hit them with undeniable facts and call it a day. The more exposure we get and more we venture outside the gaming realm where players generally sided with the effort and more into the realm of non-gamers and people who have no view either way at first, credibility is important especially to one that dont have millions of dollars of backing like PETA who by definition credibility is shot to hell and even considered a terrorist organization by government entities, like the USDA and others not because of their message, but the acts of a relative few under the PETA banner. Why have they not been closed down? Same reason the KKK is still around.

We must fight the urge to get dirty as we dont want to be labeled as "An organization that is just trying to smear NCSoft." Even with some people that view it as deserved, we dont want to be pegged as th e"go-to site" to join a smear campaign against NCSoft.

We just want to right the wrongs, get more information of why, and let people know the facts.

Forums already get the bad rap as not being reliable sources as is. Lets break that stereotype. The media and websites are used to and expect angry gamers when the game get shut down and expect negative biased information and look upon it for entertainment until it dies down unti lnext game gets shutdown. If we want to change, we have to stick to the facts and show that gamers can be unhappy, but we all not simple emotion people that only can "nerd-rage" when we are angry and incapable of looking at anything with an unbiased view.

Let's surprise them. Let's make is so when they think back and another game gets shutdown and someone says "Dont worry, they'll nerd rage for a few months and then it'll go away." Someone can truthfully reply, "Well there was this one site cohTitan that actually just laid out the facts of what happened and are a credible group. If our game gets shutdown lets contact them to see what steps they took so we dont look act like a bunch of nerd-ragers and end up looking stupid."

Success or fail, lets go out being remembered as Legends of the MMO World!

[Globetrotter]

We must fight the urge to get dirty as we dont want to be labeled as "An organization that is just trying to smear NCSoft." Even with some people that view it as deserved, we dont want to be pegged as th e"go-to site" to join a smear campaign against NCSoft.

We just want to right the wrongs, get more information of why, and let people know the facts.

Forums already get the bad rap as not being reliable sources as is. Lets break that stereotype. The media and websites are used to and expect angry gamers when the game get shut down and expect negative biased information and look upon it for entertainment until it dies down unti lnext game gets shutdown. If we want to change, we have to stick to the facts and show that gamers can be unhappy, but we all not simple emotion people that only can "nerd-rage" when we are angry and incapable of looking at anything with an unbiased view.

Let's surprise them. Let's make is so when they think back and another game gets shutdown and someone says "Dont worry, they'll nerd rage for a few months and then it'll go away." Someone can truthfully reply, "Well there was this one site cohTitan that actually just laid out the facts of what happened and are a credible group. If our game gets shutdown lets contact them to see what steps they took so we dont look act like a bunch of nerd-ragers and end up looking stupid."

Success or fail, lets go out being remembered as Legends of the MMO World!

Because we are heroes and this is what we do!

[JaguarX]

Because we are heroes and this is what we do!

precisely.

Since Aug 31st, online gamers from here have joined other gamers from around the world, and have launched the largest campaign in the history of MMOs. Gamers, that word should have new meaning for all of us today. We can't be consumed by our petty differences any more. We will be united in our common interest. Perhaps it's fate that today is the last 30 days, and you will be fighting for our freedom. Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution, but from virtual annihilation. We're fighting for our right to play, to exist and should we win the day, the 31st of August will no longer be known as the day of COH's DOOOM! announcement, but as the day when COX players declared in one voice, 'We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on, we're going to survive. We are heroes and this is what we do!'

[The Fifth Horseman]

Heads up, some of the recent edits to the page look like whitewashing attempts on behalf of NCSoft.
I'm half a mind to contact the admins' noticeboard and request semi-protection of the page (making it only editable by registered Wikipedia accounts).

[Knightslayer]

Heads up, some of the recent edits to the page look like whitewashing attempts on behalf of NCSoft.
I'm half a mind to contact the admins' noticeboard and request semi-protection of the page (making it only editable by registered Wikipedia accounts).

Someone ought to save a copy of it for easy restoration purposes - if that's not the case yet.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Unless a specific revision is deleted by an admin, it remains in the edit log (and different log entries can be compared between to determine what changes have taken place).

[Colette]

"We don't need to be aggressive or biased to hurt NCsoft. Information can be a weapon on its own - all we have to do is objectively present the known facts."

"The best way to "hurt" NCSoft is with pure truth."

Fifth is correct. The facts are damning enough to the MMO community without any exaggeration or embroidery.

"...some of the recent edits to the page look like whitewashing attempts on behalf of NCSoft."

I've recently had that same paranoid feeling. Y'know, wouldn't that be in character? Sock-puppeting and trying to deal with the symptoms and negate the consequences instead of owning up to their douchebaggery and changing their actions.

Be nice if we could catch them at it.

[SithRose]

Angels and ministers of grace, defend us.

Hamlet, act 1, scene 4.

[dwturducken]

Hamlet, act 1, scene 4.

Nice to see there's nothing wrong with your memory.

[SithRose]

Nice to see there's nothing wrong with your memory.

No doubt about your memory.

[The Fifth Horseman]

"...some of the recent edits to the page look like whitewashing attempts on behalf of NCSoft."

I've recently had that same paranoid feeling. Y'know, wouldn't that be in character? Sock-puppeting and trying to deal with the symptoms and negate the consequences instead of owning up to their douchebaggery and changing their actions.

Be nice if we could catch them at it.

Heh, looks like someone filed a WP:COI report on it already. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#NCsoft

[Colette]

I don't know the exact entry they're complaining about. But "smear" implies a deliberate attempt to slander someone with spoken lies or libel them with written falsehoods. NCSoft has done enough that we don't need to invent bad things to say about 'em.

[dwturducken]

I stand corrected.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Anyhow, some anonymous troll keeps removing a neutral sentence from the article and replacing it with NCSoft's meaningless collection of buzzwords.

I can't revert the page again today - that is, I could but that would get the page reverted back and me under a 24-hour ban for violating the three revert rule. The only thing I can do is to go through RFC on this, and since most of the suspect edits are coming from anonymous IPs I'd better also go through RFP. Meaning that you guys and girls should register on Wikipedia if you want to make edits to that article in the near future.

[JaguarX]

Uhmmmm...someone is going to work on that wiki article.

I think that little annon user guy is the least of the worries.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Maybe and maybe not. Let the weight of the material speak for itself. Let the amount of coverage tell the story.
In fact, getting more attention on the article means more hands for hunting down better sources to back the information therein.

[JaguarX]

Maybe and maybe not. Let the weight of the material speak for itself. Let the amount of coverage tell the story.
In fact, getting more attention on the article means more hands for hunting down better sources to back the information therein.

This is true.