Author Topic: Current position/Update  (Read 33420 times)

Lucretia MacEvil

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2012, 04:28:03 PM »
I understand some may not give another penny to NCSoft and that if fine and may the right thing to do for some. Yet on the flip side, more people that say that the more it seems that the player base is done with NCSoft and COX under them. This of course would have minimized the chance that NCSoft would relent and either reboot the game into he future or do anything with the IP if they keep it because then they will think that the player base is gone and the money that it would cost to restart it would be wasted.

As I understand it, the "not another penny" statement is more along the lines of protesting NCsoft's poor customer relations; it's a way of saying "they obviously don't care about their customers, so I don't care to purchase their products" and "if they're this abrupt with shutdowns, I don't want to get financially (and emotionally) involved with another of their games because they could just yank it with no warning".

In regards to what happens after Nov. 30th:
Right now, we could still lose our last few weeks of gameplay, but after the servers go down, that's not an issue.  Some players may become more inclined towards spreading negative PR because "what are they gonna do, ban us?".
I'm all for turning up the volume, but we need to be careful of how we do it, especially after Doomsday.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 04:33:20 PM by Lucretia MacEvil »

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2012, 05:46:11 PM »
You're right, maybe Tony is just approaching Plan Z to use some things for plan B (which should be more along the line of saving City Ourselves rather than waiting for NCSoft to do it, which is Plan A).

I thought it's already been stated that if the game gets saved, there's not a chance in Hell that the Plan Z stuff could be integrated into it, because every single person who has contributed even a shred to it, has to sign off on it being given to "PS" or whoever. Otherwise it's begging for a lawsuit sometime down the road.

Either way, something feels "off" right now. It's been a month to this very day since there's been an official Titan statement. We're in the final month. "Orders, sir?"

JaguarX

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2012, 06:05:50 PM »
As I understand it, the "not another penny" statement is more along the lines of protesting NCsoft's poor customer relations; it's a way of saying "they obviously don't care about their customers, so I don't care to purchase their products" and "if they're this abrupt with shutdowns, I don't want to get financially (and emotionally) involved with another of their games because they could just yank it with no warning".

In regards to what happens after Nov. 30th:
Right now, we could still lose our last few weeks of gameplay, but after the servers go down, that's not an issue.  Some players may become more inclined towards spreading negative PR because "what are they gonna do, ban us?".
I'm all for turning up the volume, but we need to be careful of how we do it, especially after Doomsday.

yep.

Manga

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2012, 06:25:45 PM »

Listen up because I said this before in another thread, but I'm trying not to thread-bomb this:

After November 30th, it will be too late, because NCSoft will be deleting all City of Heroes characters.

This is not speculation.  It already happened to a couple of people who ended up with their CoH account "closed" - they got the accounts restored, but with no characters.  They were deleted, irrecoverably.

If the game re-opens after November 30th, we'll lose pretty much everyone who doesn't want to start over their dozens of alts from level 1.

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2012, 06:36:09 PM »
Listen up because I said this before in another thread, but I'm trying not to thread-bomb this:

After November 30th, it will be too late, because NCSoft will be deleting all City of Heroes characters.

This is not speculation.  It already happened to a couple of people who ended up with their CoH account "closed" - they got the accounts restored, but with no characters.  They were deleted, irrecoverably.

If the game re-opens after November 30th, we'll lose pretty much everyone who doesn't want to start over their dozens of alts from level 1.

Do you have any proof of this?
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downix

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2012, 06:39:01 PM »
Listen up because I said this before in another thread, but I'm trying not to thread-bomb this:

After November 30th, it will be too late, because NCSoft will be deleting all City of Heroes characters.

This is not speculation.  It already happened to a couple of people who ended up with their CoH account "closed" - they got the accounts restored, but with no characters.  They were deleted, irrecoverably.

If the game re-opens after November 30th, we'll lose pretty much everyone who doesn't want to start over their dozens of alts from level 1.
Save your characters with Sentinel then.

epawtows

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2012, 07:43:50 PM »
Listen up because I said this before in another thread, but I'm trying not to thread-bomb this:

After November 30th, it will be too late, because NCSoft will be deleting all City of Heroes characters.

This is not speculation.  It already happened to a couple of people who ended up with their CoH account "closed" - they got the accounts restored, but with no characters.  They were deleted, irrecoverably.

If the game re-opens after November 30th, we'll lose pretty much everyone who doesn't want to start over their dozens of alts from level 1.

Assuming that has happend:

I have little doubt that the records of those characters still exist, on backups if nothing else.  I.E., NCSoft *could* have restored the accounts with the characters intact, if they wanted to.  They probably don't.  They most likely want to be punative and petty. 

So, if someone does manage to get the IP out of them next year, it *could* have the characters- the data will still exist.  Weather it does or not depends on the terms of the deal.

Colette

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2012, 07:51:11 PM »
"Whilst it might be considered mean and inconsiderate..."

No offense, CMGangrel, but this happened with no warning at all. I have no patience for NCSoft apologists who say this "may be considered" mean and inconsiderate when it bleedin' well is mean and inconsiderate! And no mush-mouth doubletalk excuses will make it otherwise.

NecrotechMaster

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2012, 08:00:45 PM »
i think the largest source of confusion for me is that they still allowed the release of the nature affinity set to live and <1 week later they decide to want to shut the game down

i agree that make it look very bad for other customers because nobody will want to spend any money on ncsoft games if they know that even after major release they could shut the game down for essentially no reason

as far as im concerned im not gonna be getting into any mmos unless they are f2p and premium currency earnable in game so i wont have anything to say i wasted except for time if the game dies

dwturducken

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2012, 08:36:14 PM »
I thought it's already been stated that if the game gets saved, there's not a chance in Hell that the Plan Z stuff could be integrated into it, because every single person who has contributed even a shred to it, has to sign off on it being given to "PS" or whoever. Otherwise it's begging for a lawsuit sometime down the road.

If the game can be saved, this part isn't completely accurate, thanks to the Mission Architect system. However, that would be something done "privately" and something to be considered if/when the time comes.  Just sayin'.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Omega Mark V

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2012, 09:59:32 PM »
Let's keep our cool, and continue the fight. Remember the "5 P" rule...

I will not give up fighting after CoX's closure. That is our most important goal, no matter whats going on.

Thanks for the update, keep your head held high.

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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2012, 10:07:22 PM »
If the game can be saved, this part isn't completely accurate, thanks to the Mission Architect system. However, that would be something done "privately" and something to be considered if/when the time comes.  Just sayin'.

Yeah, but with MA, anyone can offer up their ideas for free. It's not that someone can't resubmit a story into MA that they wrote for Plan Z, but I'm thinking more along the lines of game design and mechanics. Things that aren't in CoH but we wish was there, and is now in Plan Z. It's just one of those annoying legal quirks that makes it harder and harder to "sell" to someone else as more people contribute to it. It would've been different had there been something all forum users had to sign before posting ideas there, but there really wasn't any time to plan ahead for that.

Ampithere

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2012, 12:57:52 AM »
Whether CoH has our characters or not won't impact my decision to continue playing it in the future. If you are fighting to save the game, what does it say about you if you don't play it after it comes back?

"My characters aren't there so I'm not playing."

So...you're saving the game because you don't want to play it?

Honestly that just makes me mad.
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Colette

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2012, 01:01:09 AM »
Gangrel, we're talking past each other because we're running under different premises.

While I let my subscription lapse, my subscription time amounted to over five years. I continued to support the game by purchases.

Had NCSoft given us some warning, I would have happily invested the $15 to spend the last months of CoH's existence in VIP status. With no warning, I was cut off. And I'm far from alone. Just a little notice, a little consideration. A week's notice would not have gotten them into any legal trouble. It would have shown they have some little bit of consideration for their audience.

As it was, everyone was thrown out like the town trunk at last call, a treatment I for one am not accustomed to. This cancellation-without-notice is one of several gestures of contempt NCSoft has shown us.

Ethics are about treating people kindly and respectfully when it is inconvenient to do so. Ethics are not meant to be convenient. Look carefully at your argument. It boils down to, "companies should place convenience over consideration."

NCSoft owns the game. They have every right to close it. I know that. But they have flipped us The Bird in multiple ways.

1. Cutting off purchases without prior notice. (Contempt.)
2. Releasing a major new powerset (nature mastery) three days before the cancellation notice. (Fraud.)
3. Releasing I-24 to Beta before the cancellation, thus giving us all the false idea the game would be around a while. (Mendacity.)
4. Advertising the game as "Play Free Forever." (False advertising, again fraud.)
5. Not responding to our inquiries, ignoring us and hoping we'll all just go away. (Contempt again.)

And finally, I don't care for a company that would cancel a family-friendly, venerable game like City of Heroes, only to publish "Boobs and Shame" (Pandering,) or as I understand, send musclemen to force our devs out of the office, then strip the place (Tyranny.)

These are my grievances with NCSoft. Until they address them, I refuse to have anything to do with them, I will not shut up about their shady business practices, and honestly after this experience I'm going to resist purchasing an MMO ever again. This has nothing to do with "cultural differences" or "profitability" or any other excuses people have made to try to explain NCSoft's behavior. It's about respect -- showing us, the customers, respect.

Hope this clarifies my argument.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 01:20:36 AM by Colette »

Aggelakis

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2012, 02:56:29 AM »
1. Sound business sense. If they continued to allow purchases, they would continuously be required to refund purchases *or* they would create confusion as to why Bob got a refund but Joe did not.
2. Not fraud. If you purchased points on 8/28 to get Nature, you were refunded that purchase. If you had previously purchased points AFTER a certain date and used some to get Nature, you were refunded that purchase. If you had previously purchased points BEFORE a certain date, you had plenty of time (and still have time) to use those points in the store. No fraud there. (Fraud is a very specific term; don't throw it around willy-nilly just because you think it sounds cool.)
3. I24 was in development LONG before the decision was made to close City. I24 was in closed beta probably before the decision was made to close City (above Paragon Studios' heads, without talking to them). I24 went into open beta on 8/8, probably around the same time the decision was made to close City (above Paragon Studios' heads, without talking to them).
4. Not fraud. It's called "puffery" - you can play free, forever, as long as the game is around. Again, fraud is very specific.
5. Not very sound business sense, but understandable because they don't know how to handle this kind of outcry. We're the first to get really stank about it.
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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2012, 04:55:11 AM »
Do you have any proof of this?

Follow this thread:  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5943.0.html

It's a day-by-day account of how a friend of mine had her account "closed" and the subsequent behavior of NCSoft support.  Since then, she contacted them once more, and they told her the problem was fairly widespread, but their hands were tied in what they're allowed to do to fix it (e.g. not being able to restore characters).

Also you're all getting off track.  Deleting every single character in a CoH account, in a manner so it's not recoverable, isn't something that often happens by accident.  NCSoft has to have either authorized their server techs to wipe closed accounts daily, or even script it.  This also means, with great certainty, that the day the CoH servers shut down, our CoH accounts close, and the next night everything gets wiped. 

If CoH is ever started back up again, all the accounts will be empty.  A very large number of players will see that years of hard work has vanished, and they will leave.  There is no amount of anger or name-calling which will change that.  And it very well might make the difference between the game being self-supporting and not.  I'm not saying it's time to give up - but after November 30th, everything gets much more difficult.  This is why timing was so important.

Also, Sentinel will not help with this because CoH will never allow you to import a saved character to the server.  That would just open the floodgates to cheating.

NecrotechMaster

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2012, 05:58:51 AM »
i would figure that they would not allow the players themselves to import characters

also i think guyperfect mentioned that they have a way to detect if the file has been modified from the original creation (i think from what i read when it does the initial read when you run it, it creates a hash value thats passed through several layers of encryption and if the file is edited in any way it wouldnt match the hash and thus be useless for importing anyway)

(im about 95% sure thats what goes on as i remember from the various sentinel threads when it was first released and some before release, but please correct me if im mistaken in any part)

eabrace

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2012, 03:59:50 PM »
(im about 95% sure thats what goes on as i remember from the various sentinel threads when it was first released and some before release, but please correct me if im mistaken in any part)
You are correct.
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Colette

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2012, 04:07:18 PM »
...sound business sense. If they continued to allow purchases....

:: Facepalm! :: You're. Not. Listening.

In simple monosyllabic English -- I did not say they should let us buy once the date passed. I said warn us first. What part of that is so hard to get?

"If you purchased points on 8/28 to get Nature..."

My experience contradicts you.

"I24 went into open beta on 8/8, probably around the same time the decision was made to close..."

As you say, it's a case of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing. Another example of the disconnect between NCSoft and Paragon Studios that culminated in Paragon (so I understand, hearsay on this point) getting all but bodily thrown out the door. It still had the side effect of making the abrupt closure announcement all the more shocking and infuriating.

"Not fraud. It's called 'puffery'"

It's called lying. I'm not gonna bandy words with you.

I don't expect anyone to operate the game at a loss for our benefit. I do expect them to take cost-cutting measures, attempt alternative business models, to keep the game going so long as it has some kind of paying audience, just like so many of the other venerable MMOs out there. Their advertising contains that promise, and instead NCSoft has done the opposite. Sadly truth-in-advertising no longer exists and we no longer expect it, and put a figleaf over it with doubletalk words like "puffery."

"...understandable because they don't know how to handle this kind of outcry."

Y'know, I don't see what's so difficult about it. Early on, I wrote a thread called "how to shut down an MMO" that, since NCSoft if determined to destroy this game, outlined how to do it in a way that defuses as many harsh feelings as possible. It's not hard, it's called empathy, taking the trouble to imagine yourself in the other guy's shoes and anticipate how he'd feel and react. Y'know, "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you."

And that's not a cultural thing either. Master Kong's (Kong Tzu, "Confucius") works reached Korea and he said that about five hunded years before Yeshua did.

Aggelakis, no offense, but I swear if you weren't listed as a Paragon Wiki Admin, I'd suspect you of being an NCSoft sock puppet. You are completely out of touch with why the community here is so upset with NCSoft. It's not just that they're closing the game, it's how they're closing the game and how we're being treated. Heavens, do you really suppose we'd all be cheering when NCSoft's stock falls, creating and posting 'net memes, buying the Devs dinner in sympathy, dredging up the Garriott mess, just because the game's closing? I for one am not that petty. These are legitimate grievances.

"We're the first to get really stank about it."

If I may speak on behalf of the good folks gathered here, we're the first to have so many ethically sound and logically valid reasons.

And Blade and Soul is still pornography.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 04:26:00 PM by Colette »

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2012, 04:26:16 PM »
Speaking solely for myself, it's the squatting on dead IPs that pisses me off the most about NCsoft's behavior.  CoH's closure wouldn't bother me nearly as much if I knew that, through either sale or relinquishment, CoH's IP would eventually be up for grabs, and someone else could either buy it, or reverse engineer a server for it, and run it the way it ought to be run.

But I know from experience that NCsoft protects its IPs about as jealously as a vulture protects a fresh carcass from smaller scavengers.  It doesn't matter that an IP isn't making them a single red cent or even a hundredth of a Won, they'll squat on it and refuse to budge.  Long before the Garriots or Tabula Rasa was ever an issue, they did it with Auto Assault, and more recently with Exteel.

Anyone could've told NCsoft that the Garriotts were more than a little crazy.  What really do you expect from a guy that slips self-inserts into every game he's been a part of the making of (Lord British, General British, etc.)?    Anyone who was part of Auto Assault could've told the Garriotts not to get involved with NCsoft.  Now we have the pair of them squabbling like children, and NCsoft has decided to take its ball and go home... but not before kicking his mutual-friend's sandcastle out of spite; that being CoH.

If it wasn't for the fact that properties worth potentially millions were involved here, it would be pitiful.  As it stands, it's just infuriating.