Author Topic: Current position/Update  (Read 33421 times)

Osborn

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2012, 05:53:11 PM »
Speaking solely for myself, it's the squatting on dead IPs that pisses me off the most about NCsoft's behavior.  CoH's closure wouldn't bother me nearly as much if I knew that, through either sale or relinquishment, CoH's IP would eventually be up for grabs, and someone else could either buy it, or reverse engineer a server for it, and run it the way it ought to be run.

But I know from experience that NCsoft protects its IPs about as jealously as a vulture protects a fresh carcass from smaller scavengers.  It doesn't matter that an IP isn't making them a single red cent or even a hundredth of a Won, they'll squat on it and refuse to budge.  Long before the Garriots or Tabula Rasa was ever an issue, they did it with Auto Assault, and more recently with Exteel.

Anyone could've told NCsoft that the Garriotts were more than a little crazy.  What really do you expect from a guy that slips self-inserts into every game he's been a part of the making of (Lord British, General British, etc.)?    Anyone who was part of Auto Assault could've told the Garriotts not to get involved with NCsoft.  Now we have the pair of them squabbling like children, and NCsoft has decided to take its ball and go home... but not before kicking his mutual-friend's sandcastle out of spite; that being CoH.

If it wasn't for the fact that properties worth potentially millions were involved here, it would be pitiful.  As it stands, it's just infuriating.

Honestly I mostly agree. If NCSoft had shown itself to be like "We're done with this, it doesn't fit with our company, but here, you take this and make something out of it.", I wouldn't have no real problem with them.

My problem with them wasn't that they wanted to make their types of games or they were too un-American or whatever.

My problem with them is two fold. It's the fact that, even if I buy another game of theirs I honestly have no confidence that it'll remain open or viable no matter how much money I dump into it. I can 'do my part' and it won't matter. The second part is the frankly insulting manner that this has been handled. I'm told that I should be OK with being insulted because that's 'how it is done in Korea' but I don't buy it. If I should change my habits to make a Korean audience feel better about my product or views, then honestly it should go both ways. So I've had little tolerance for the excuse of 'If the CEO spits on you, you thank him for the extra water because that's how it's done in Korea'.

Neither problem is unresolvable. Frankly, I'm used to rude businessmen, so the latter I could honestly get over almost entirely the second the first was addressed. But the first won't ever be addressed, it seems, and so my grief with them as a company stands.

The Fifth Horseman

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2012, 08:33:16 PM »
And Blade and Soul is still pornography.
Debatable. I was under the impression low-grade CGI pornography has slightly higher standards for quality of character models and their animation.  ;D
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P51mus

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2012, 10:01:16 PM »
Debatable. I was under the impression low-grade CGI pornography has slightly higher standards for quality of character models and their animation.  ;D

Pretty sure they're worse, or most of them are all the same grade of awful.  There's some sort of easy to use 3d modeling program/ready to use models most of them use or something.  Ranges from so bad it's awful to so bad it's funny.

Turjan

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2012, 12:03:05 AM »
But I know from experience that NCsoft protects its IPs about as jealously as a vulture protects a fresh carcass from smaller scavengers.  It doesn't matter that an IP isn't making them a single red cent or even a hundredth of a Won, they'll squat on it and refuse to budge.

Exactly.

I've pondered why this should be the case with every MMO NCsoft have closed and then kept the IP - which basically is all of them. It's my belief now that the single reason for this is NCsoft founder and CEO Taek-jin Kim. And while it's undeniable that the previous MMO closures have all been financially motivated, that still doesn't explain why he's never parted with a single IP. I don't believe the decision to retain these IPs was business motivated at all - not for any of them.

I believe Kim sees himself as a creative visionary, and in some way regards himself as directly responsible for the creativity behind the MMOs NCsoft makes. So when he closes an MMO, he selfishly hangs on to the IPs because he regards them as his creations. And as long as he has the IPs still in NCsoft's hands, he can wander down his MMO Hall of Fame, looking at the IPs frozen in their display cases, and he can live vicariously through the work of others, thinking to himself "I made these worlds!".

I reckon it's all about him - his wants, his desires, his ego. And to be perfectly honest, I'm beginning to wonder now if the reason CoH was closed when it was is to do with Kim's voluntary 'soft merger' with Nexon. I've always thought that financially speaking, keeping CoH alive would make far more sense from the perspective of a joint Nexon-NCsoft association...which is one of the reasons its sudden closure so soon after the Nexon-NCsoft merger (and perhaps more interestingly, less than ONE week after Min Kim took over as head of Nexon US) made so little sense to me.

And so in the absence of logic, I simply stopped thinking logically...and the answer magically became clear...

TJKim wanted CoH closed so he could preserve the IP in his personal company Hall of Fame, his last 'hurrah' before taking a backseat to Nexon. And it served a dual purpose too - not only did he get to keep a unique creative jewel, he also got some vicarious payback against the west, land of Tabula Rasa (which is also still sitting in his IP vault of course).

I'm firmly convinced now that this whole thing was personal. And in making such a petty personal move, TJKim has betrayed tens of thousands of loyal customers, many of whom have paid him faithfully every month for eight years. He lost their trust when he tried to kill their dreams - and as a visionary, that's about the biggest crime he could've committed, for in betraying us, he has also betrayed his own vision for his company.

dwturducken

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2012, 12:15:17 AM »
Is it his?  I thought they bought the game from Cryptic and set up Paragon to maintain and continue developing it.  I came to the game shortly before the change, so i wasn't really paying attention to that.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

P51mus

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2012, 12:21:50 AM »
I have no idea whether such a thing is true or not, but I think it sounds too conspiracy theorist to gain traction with most people.  Better to stick to what we can prove, which is how horrible they've acted towards us, and all the IPs they've been sitting on.

Unless you can find some way to prove that.  Not speculate about it.

Ramblings like that with no proof, only speculation, would only serve to make us look like madmen/women.

eabrace

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2012, 12:22:47 AM »
Is it his?  I thought they bought the game from Cryptic and set up Paragon to maintain and continue developing it.  I came to the game shortly before the change, so i wasn't really paying attention to that.
NCsoft has been the publisher of City of Heroes from day 1.  Cryptic was the initial developer of the game.  NCsoft later bought Cryptic out of their half of the game to become the soul owner of the IP, created NCsoft NorCal (later renamed Paragon Studios), and hiring a handful of developers from Cryptic to continue development of the game.
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Turjan

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2012, 12:53:00 AM »
Ramblings like that with no proof, only speculation, would only serve to make us look like madmen/women.
NCsoft stubbornly refuse to provide any logical explanation for their actions, and in the absence of solid facts, rumour, hearsay, speculation, and mad rambling naturally flood in to fill the void.

I said that the conclusion I arrived at is simply one of belief, the result of negative deduction in that (to quote Sherlock Holmes) "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

The beauty of being in the position of a disgruntled ex-customer of NCsoft is that the burden of proof does not lie with me because I am not in possession of the facts. Therefore all I CAN do is speculate. It's up to NCsoft to react to such speculation with the facts they do possess to either prove or disprove any speculation - or they can remain silent and simply invite yet more damaging rumours. It's entirely their call.

For my part however, I too do not see much practical use for such a supposition.
Yet.
But things change...

dwturducken

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2012, 01:50:55 AM »
NCsoft has been the publisher of City of Heroes from day 1.  Cryptic was the initial developer of the game.  NCsoft later bought Cryptic out of their half of the game to become the soul owner of the IP, created NCsoft NorCal (later renamed Paragon Studios), and hiring a handful of developers from Cryptic to continue development of the game.

Fair enough. As I said, it was "before my time," but it would speak to a raging ego problem, if it were true.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2012, 04:33:15 AM »
The bottom line for me is that we lose focus when we try to figure out the motives over at NCSoft.  Trying to figure out motives made sense when we thought that understanding motive might bring them to change their mind, or at least let CoX go to someone who would treat it right.  Now we know that's not true, not at an $80 million price-tag.  Now we know there is only one tactic that will work in our favor.  Let's speculate on motives later.  We need to concentrate on bringing the pain to NCSoft until it becomes too painful for them to keep cybersquatting on our game. 
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Moonfyire101

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2012, 04:56:26 AM »
New to the forum, Actually just made this account to add my thoughts and support to the fight. CoH was the first MMO that didn't feel bland and meaningless to me. Te first one where I did not have to worry about keeping level with friends or Grinding boringly for hours on end. Reading this abates many of the things I worried about most. However there is one additional factor that we have to consider.

I have many GW playing friends. They like GW, and many of them seem to feel that we are over-reacting. The argument seems to be that NCsoft owns the IP and we should just find a new MMO. I know many people who may wish to spam or unicorn at such words, but I think one of the best things we can do right now is to explain to people, individually, why this is wrong.

As has been said over and over anger will get us nowhere. NCsoft right now is starting to see that their call for this game was a bad one, but they also seem confident in the fact that their new and upcoming titles will offset the losses. We need to appeal individually and en mass to those who use or wish to use NCsoft. Try to explain to them in a friendly and rational matter how it could be their game next, how they could lose an investment with little warning. This isn't like picking up a new game with some DLC from a store. If another Megaman or Monster rancher game never comes out I personally would be very sad, but I still have the ones I own. The same is true for others I am sure. With an MMO though if it goes down it goes down for good and few get the nice, dedicated private servers games like PSO may enjoy when the company no longer cares about the IP.

People need to realize that so long as NCsoft behaves like this, so long as they continue to pull games entirly, all the work and all the effort and all the enjoyment could be gone in an instant due to the short sighted whims of those who may not even care about the game itself.

We are the players, and we are the ones this affects most.

That is what i told people at the con. It could be any game. Welcome to the group too.

NecrotechMaster

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2012, 04:57:52 AM »
You are correct.

fantastic, i did that post completely on memory lol

Terwyn

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2012, 06:20:40 AM »
Follow this thread:  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5943.0.html

I do not consider that sufficient proof unless the transcripts of her interactions with NCSoft can be verified.
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Undercat

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2012, 06:41:50 AM »
I'm actually rather concerned about the image I'm forming for the head of NCsoft. He seems to be a rather impulsive individual---someone who flies by the seat of his pants, rather than by what his instruments are telling him. He seems like the kind of guy who likes power and would love nothing more than to dig in his heels if it hurts those who have become his enemies. As evidenced by his handling of previous game closures, he's even willing to completely absorb enormous financial losses rather than give comfort to his enemies by liquidating for fractional recovery.

This just doesn't strike me as the kind of individual who is especially subject to the pressures of publicity---especially if it comes from a foreign market a fraction of the size of the one he evidently now has in his sites (China). If we manage to put enough negative pressure on NCsoft, they may simply focus even more intently on the Asian market, perhaps even to the point of abandoning US localizations for some of their Korean titles, but without budging one iota on the matter of liquidating their mothballed IP, including CoX.

In other words, he seems like the kind of guy who would be inclined to pay plenty just for the pleasure of giving us the great big digitus impudicus (middle finger).

That would probably piss me off so much it would give me an aneurism, but I really am starting to wonder. Cripes...I wish I knew what to do.

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2012, 06:45:19 AM »
Corporate hierarchies aren't my strong point, but can he be ousted, or rendered ineffective?

Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2012, 06:48:27 AM »
In other words, he seems like the kind of guy who would be inclined to pay plenty just for the pleasure of giving us the great big digitus impudicus (middle finger).
It ain't Taek Jin Kim we have to deal with.

It's his stockholders.  Who, I should stress, are in the business of watching their investments grow.  If the CEO keeps making decisions that seem to hurt those investments, and keeps getting customers and potential customers pissed off as a result, they're going to pull those investments out.

That's something he can't ignore; these people are the reason why he has a business to run in the first place.

All we have to do, is use solid facts to paint NCsoft as a reactionary, xenophobic company with little to no connection to its Western audience, with a CEO that is making unwise decisions with company intellectual property and endangering the company's bottom line in the process.

Once NCsoft's investors are running scared because of us, they have two choices: come to the negotiating table, or sink beneath it and fail as a company.  Either one serves our goals.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2012, 06:48:41 AM »
Corporate hierarchies aren't my strong point, but can he be ousted, or rendered ineffective?

Based on some of what I've heard, I'm not even sure NCsoft knows for sure how its hierarchy is structured.

Undercat

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2012, 06:57:56 AM »
It ain't Taek Jin Kim we have to deal with.

It's his stockholders.  Who, I should stress, are in the business of watching their investments grow.  If the CEO keeps making decisions that seem to hurt those investments, and keeps getting customers and potential customers pissed off as a result, they're going to pull those investments out.

Yeah, good point. I suppose that the fact Kim's share in the company recently declined from almost 25% to about 10% may have muted his voice some, too. Of course, the other shareholders may also be almost entirely Asian and may not care much about the US market in comparison to the "Chinese prize," but why would a rational investor throw money away?

Kim may not be rational, I don't know, but hopefully a majority of NCsoft's other shareholders will be. I guess we'll see.

JaguarX

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2012, 07:14:14 AM »
It ain't Taek Jin Kim we have to deal with.

It's his stockholders.  Who, I should stress, are in the business of watching their investments grow.  If the CEO keeps making decisions that seem to hurt those investments, and keeps getting customers and potential customers pissed off as a result, they're going to pull those investments out.

That's something he can't ignore; these people are the reason why he has a business to run in the first place.

All we have to do, is use solid facts to paint NCsoft as a reactionary, xenophobic company with little to no connection to its Western audience, with a CEO that is making unwise decisions with company intellectual property and endangering the company's bottom line in the process.

Once NCsoft's investors are running scared because of us, they have two choices: come to the negotiating table, or sink beneath it and fail as a company.  Either one serves our goals.

You do realize that negotiation is usually more than about serving our goals right? It should be about the benefit of both parties involved.

But you are right about the pain point- We have to get the solid facts.

Now I do agree that NCSOft seem to have little connection to it's western audience but no more less than than most other buisnesses doing buisness in other countries, even US based ones, with some of those seemingly not connected much to their own country besides the cutsomer but having their entire operation based over seas and benefiting that countries economy with jobs, and stuff yet only take money from the US people. But if that is the goal, to paint them as such, first have to understand what Xenophobia actually is. As the definition stands, xenophobia would be very hard to prove there. Unaware or disconnected from the Western ways, easier yes, but I think a little would be expected given that they are mostly Korean based. To prove this point, all you need is the track record of their handling of American products compared to their domestic products and that may prove that or at least prove something. Yet the outcome may not be as glorious as we want it. They may clam up even more and shut down other American games and leave for good and really focus on the Korean grind fest games walking away as not wanting to deal with that headache ever again. Thus COX still will be gone, they still wont sell, and they wont entertain anything coming from this side of the water. Reactionary, the actions should speak for themselves.

Remember we are not the Mafia or mob, or shouldnt be tryign to strong arm them into "do our bidding or else." Unless that is the solid goal and then it should be gone after full force. Right now, some want to negotiate others want to smash them. I dont see how both can be done. Would you want to negotiate with someone that aim is to smash you? That is not a good negotiating starter.

 The goal seems to be getting muddled. We dont have the resources to strong arm them and they probably will justify ignoring us if we tried not to mention would hurt our cause, especially if we try to get investors for plan z. If we are going to burn them, then we should step up the efforts and do it but cant expect at the same time for them to be willing to play nice and open up about the situation or hold us in good regards and can expect them to act like we are beneath their notice. Or we can negotiate, but that takes time, patience, understanding, knowledge of how that buisness works, and listening to both sides even if it sounds like bs. But the goal then cant be all about what we want. We have to think about what benefit would they get from negotiating without outside the usual mob tactic of "Give in to our demands or else you'll pay."
(random)Do people talk to their spouse like these days? (end random)

We need to focus on one and stick with it and go for it full force.

Me personally I would say to hell with NCSoft and lets show them how to build a true game even if we must find some sort of financial backing to get it up and running. But not many companies are going to be willing to invest in it if we come off as we will try to smear and hurt anyone company that doesnt do what we want. Maybe the mafia, but that is a whole nother can of worms.

We have to appear clean...even when we are being grimy. :D

Copper Cockroach

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Re: Current position/Update
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2012, 07:36:07 AM »
Exactly.

I've pondered why this should be the case with every MMO NCsoft have closed and then kept the IP - which basically is all of them. It's my belief now that the single reason for this is NCsoft founder and CEO Taek-jin Kim. And while it's undeniable that the previous MMO closures have all been financially motivated, that still doesn't explain why he's never parted with a single IP. I don't believe the decision to retain these IPs was business motivated at all - not for any of them.

I believe Kim sees himself as a creative visionary, and in some way regards himself as directly responsible for the creativity behind the MMOs NCsoft makes. So when he closes an MMO, he selfishly hangs on to the IPs because he regards them as his creations. And as long as he has the IPs still in NCsoft's hands, he can wander down his MMO Hall of Fame, looking at the IPs frozen in their display cases, and he can live vicariously through the work of others, thinking to himself "I made these worlds!".

I reckon it's all about him - his wants, his desires, his ego. And to be perfectly honest, I'm beginning to wonder now if the reason CoH was closed when it was is to do with Kim's voluntary 'soft merger' with Nexon. I've always thought that financially speaking, keeping CoH alive would make far more sense from the perspective of a joint Nexon-NCsoft association...which is one of the reasons its sudden closure so soon after the Nexon-NCsoft merger (and perhaps more interestingly, less than ONE week after Min Kim took over as head of Nexon US) made so little sense to me.

And so in the absence of logic, I simply stopped thinking logically...and the answer magically became clear...

TJKim wanted CoH closed so he could preserve the IP in his personal company Hall of Fame, his last 'hurrah' before taking a backseat to Nexon. And it served a dual purpose too - not only did he get to keep a unique creative jewel, he also got some vicarious payback against the west, land of Tabula Rasa (which is also still sitting in his IP vault of course).

I'm firmly convinced now that this whole thing was personal. And in making such a petty personal move, TJKim has betrayed tens of thousands of loyal customers, many of whom have paid him faithfully every month for eight years. He lost their trust when he tried to kill their dreams - and as a visionary, that's about the biggest crime he could've committed, for in betraying us, he has also betrayed his own vision for his company.

I think you may be on to something. Remember back when TonyV got a hold of the e-mail addresses of some of NCsoft's top big-shots, in the hopes that we could reason with them directly? Guess what handle our pal here goes by (or did... he probably changed it after the first e-mail he got from a CoH player)?

Mr. Taek-Jin Kim, CEO
<snip>

When I saw that, I thought to myself, "Self... you gotta be friggin' kidding me". After Turjan's observation, though, there's no doubt in my mind.

This little jackass considers himself the Leonardo DaVinci of online gaming. A brilliant engineer, despite the fact that he's written not one line of code; a genius artist, despite the fact that he's designed not so much as a single costume piece; a transcendant philosopher, despite the fact that he's never even written a crummy fire farm mission for the AE.

i'm reminded of the controversy from the early 90s, when Japanese businessman Ryoei Saito bought Van Gogh's "Portrait of Dr. Gachet" and triggered international outrage when he announced that the painting would be burned upon his death. It was his, after all, he paid good money for it, he could do whatever he wanted with it... similar display of ego, similar cluelessness, similar contempt for the West. (Saito died in '96; the painting was not burned, probably because Saito (or his heirs) realized the world-wide hatred and scorn that would be heaped on his memory and surviving family... it's since changed hands a couple of times and its location is currently unknown. Hopefully CoH's IP won't pull a similar disappearing act after NCsoft goes belly-up.)



[EDIT: Removed unauthorized posting of email address. We've been asked not to publicize those email addresses. Feel free to do so anywhere but here. ~Agge]
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 07:59:51 AM by Aggelakis »