Author Topic: 4 minutes past midnight  (Read 16098 times)

Stunrunner

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4 minutes past midnight
« on: December 01, 2012, 08:09:03 AM »
That's how far we got before the mapserver took us.

And now I have no home.

Starkzilla

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2012, 08:19:55 AM »
No home, but you're not alone.

NecrotechMaster

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2012, 08:20:33 AM »
i feel ill always have a home with the titan network, at least all of us still have a place to go to talk

seeing that forcibly disconnect from mapserver message almost made me start to cry

srmalloy

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2012, 08:20:54 AM »
As best as I can make out, Guardian got to 0005 before the mapserve hit; my last screenshot from the Rikti mother ship raid was twelve seconds after midnight, but I have a Sentinel+ save from two minutes later for Pakfront, my first character, created on May 8, 2004, who went down fighting the Rikti invaders to the end.

City of Heroes was an escape; it was a refuge, where I could be, for a time, greater than myself. It was a place where I met hundreds of people I am honored to have called my friends and my compatriots... and I despair of ever finding a community as fine as we built, unless City of Heroes rises from the ashes. But, to steal from the Polish national anthem:

City of Heroes is not yet dead,
Not while we yet live.
We will fight for all
That our enemies have taken from us.



Knightslayer

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2012, 08:26:06 AM »
i feel ill always have a home with the titan network, at least all of us still have a place to go to talk

seeing that forcibly disconnect from mapserver message almost made me start to cry
I'm sure it managed it for many of us... there were tears shed on my part, especially when I checked the official site and saw the new sunset page there...
The hardest shutdown I've ever had to endure by far...
On the bright side, the worst part is over now, right?

HeliumPhoenix

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2012, 08:28:28 AM »
AP5 on Virtue....5:30 after midnight PST.....
No mapserver message.  I was logging back in at the last moment (due to having been dropped repeatedly through the evening by my ISP)

Only 3 people still there on the steps of Paragon City Hall

I lit my torch.  I waited.

Suddenly....

PROGRAM ERROR dialog spawns right in front of me.

Before I can attempt to Mez it, it says:

"You have been forcibly disconnected from the server.  The server is shutting down."

My only two options.....

"Copy to Clipboard" and "Close"

It didn't matter which I chose, the world disappeared, screen and all, and I was left staring at my desktop.

TargetOne

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2012, 08:29:32 AM »
I'm sure it managed it for many of us... there were tears shed on my part, especially when I checked the official site and saw the new sunset page there...
The hardest shutdown I've ever had to endure by far...
On the bright side, the worst part is over now, right?

It is... now let's look forward, to the resurrection...

gypsyav

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 08:30:58 AM »
I cried through the last hour knowing stories I was playing out with a friend would now never see their end.
Imagination is the seed of intelligence. Nourish it and watch it grow.

Inkitgee

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2012, 08:35:07 AM »
After I got mapserved I had to immediately come here. :gonk:

All the times I went to Paragon to get away from my life when it was awful creep up on me.  I never thought I'd take it so hard but here I am teary eyed.  Not bawling but a piece of me is gone.  My heroes (for now) are gone.  I hope that Titan doesn't mind someone like me lurking around the forums until she can feel better.

CoyoteSeven

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2012, 08:35:51 AM »

Olantern

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2012, 08:47:54 AM »
I teared up a little, too.  But here are some thoughts that I hope comfort everyone:

We fight against despair, and we have hope, and hope can never be taken away from us.  - paraphrased from the Dream Doctor's final speech in his arc, which I ran for that message tonight

The world is a vast, black abyss, a place of cruelty, misery, and pain.  Against that endless night, each love is one light, a tiny flame struggling against the dark ... I'm a hero.  I uphold those lights.  Together, they light the world!  -Kid Eros, "One Light" (one of my online comics, now no longer extant)

[In the heart of winter, they offered a reminder] that the sun would return, and with its light, bring joy. -Brendan LeHane et al., The Book of Christmas

There is more day to dawn.  The sun is but a morning star.  - Henry David Thoreau, Walden

They can take our home, but they can't take our feelings, our memories, or our characters ... My characters aren't just a bunch data on a server someplace.  They will live as long as I do. -Olantern, one hour before shutdown

Quinch

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2012, 08:51:27 AM »

Twisted Toon

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 09:37:58 AM »
I was fighting the Freakshow in one of the portal corp missions with a couple of friends and my brother.

For some reason, I just felt like using Tha'Kaz, my Psychic/Mental Blaster.
He was only level 22 when we started tonight. Managed to get to 26 before the Freakshow mission and got my SOs.

I was in the middle of an aim/build-up boosted Psychic scream when the servers were brought down.

That was a lot of fun.


I'm sorry for screaming the servers away though guys...  :D
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy. - Cynthia Nelms

ladycat924

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2012, 09:42:15 AM »
Took them a few to get that image though, I had forum pages open at the time it went down and when I refreshed the page I got a 404 Page not found error. It was a few minutes later that the glossy "closed" page went up.

Oh...and Hello. My first Titan post.
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Purgatori KillerkittyCat.

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 09:42:58 AM »


Farewell to City of Heroes(R) from Paragon Studios(R) and NCSOFT(R)

(C) (TM) - A nice corporate middle finger up to everyone to try remind us all who owns "us"...

Funny thing is, there's no copyright laws in many countries, and in those that do, often work very differently - I mean, ask the THOUSANDS of lawyers who were put to work trying to close down sites like The Pirate Bay for example. In the end suits are often just left screaming, shouting and stamping their feet with impotent middle-aged male rage.

... A new Paragon is coming, not some cheap rip-off. Paragon is coming back. Lets not call them "private servers" and be realistic - public, open, community-run servers that no one owns or makes a profit on :)

There's a good analysis of NCSoft's shallow marketing spin-doctoring over here from VictoriaVictrix(Mercedes Lackey) here:
lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/an-update-on-city-of-heroes.html

Memorandum

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 11:12:48 AM »
Actually... this is shoking for me. I never saw a company pushing everything so fast into the dustbin like NCSoft did. Usually the forum will be held online for some months to keep the community together and offer them another product. But like everything was done now with COH, this is just ridiculus.  :o

Quinch

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2012, 12:48:55 PM »
The shock wore off for me months ago, replaced by floundering incomprehension, gripping a life preserver of depressing evidence.

The evidence is that NCsoft wanted City of Heroes to go away quickly and quietly, but more than that, it expected it. The game, the developers, the players, they thought it would take nothing more than a letter to the studio and a flip of a switch for something that is to become something that was. In assuming so, they made a mistake, one in a long, long line, and not even the latest. The latest mistake was to pretend they made none to begin with - to defend their conviction with fanatical zealotry, to decide, against all evidence, that City of Heroes will and has simply ended, with no loose ends, no consequences for them. I don't see them admitting it - not publicly, not to themselves. It would shatter their pride, and the loose ends they're being whipped with and the flood of consequences washing their house away, if they close their eyes and cover their ears, they can believe, honestly believe, that they were, and always be right.

Colette

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2012, 01:47:09 PM »
"A nice corporate middle finger up to everyone to try remind us all who owns 'us'..."

When I first read this, less than twenty minutes after the game terminated (and despite the fact I had grown to loathe the boards and hadn't posted anything there in years) I felt a surge of inarticulate rage. Thank you, Purgatori, for articulating it.

"...the game and community will forever remain in our memories and hearts?" Good God, now they mock us!

No you don't, Mister Kim! You should have just put up a "Closed" sign and walked away. Have you no sense of shame at all? Can't you shut up and at least pretend to a little decency, or aspire to an authentic human emotion?

You do not get to trivialize our feelings and play-act that we're all one big happy family enduring the death of Ol' Yeller, together. You do not get to "refocus" your company away from anybody who doesn't have eyes shaped like yours, and still  talk to us like we're best buds. You do not get to sugarcoat everything with this repulsive, condescending, patronizing treacle while we're busily making and publishing "we effin' hate NCSoft!" memes.

We are not going away, you do not get to pretend us away.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 01:56:10 PM by Colette »

Quinch

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2012, 01:53:18 PM »
This sums up my assessment of NCsoft's little platitude.


Jetfire99

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2012, 01:57:28 PM »
Ya know looking at that sunset image from the COH site? I say we make use of it in the MMORPG serial killer MEMEs they just handed us some materials I say we use them.

Colette

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2012, 03:01:19 PM »
Way ahead of ya, Jetfire. 8)

Turjan

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2012, 03:02:09 PM »
They have How and What and Where and Whens on their FAQ page, but they missed a question there - the most important one in fact. The question uppermost in the mind of everybody today :-

Why is City of heroes closing?

Perhaps we should contact support and say the page was unhelpful to us for this reason ;)

Colette

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2012, 03:28:52 PM »
Also note the deliberately obfuscatory language. They make it sound like the servers shut themselves down.

Who is closing the servers down?

emu265

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2012, 03:34:05 PM »
Also note the deliberately obfuscatory language. They make it sound like the servers shut themselves down.

Who is closing the servers down?
Seriously...  Makes me angry...

houtex

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2012, 03:58:36 PM »
Actually... this is shoking for me. I never saw a company pushing everything so fast into the dustbin like NCSoft did. Usually the forum will be held online for some months to keep the community together and offer them another product. But like everything was done now with COH, this is just ridiculus.  :o

The reason for the forums being shut down, IMO, is the fact that it is not pretty for them to keep it running.  There is not a lot of 'like' for NCSoft there anymore.  No point in reminding people with your own property that you suck.  Take it down.

That they didn't before hand?  Amazed.  Really.  It got ugly over there.

srmalloy

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2012, 05:11:04 PM »
The evidence is that NCsoft wanted City of Heroes to go away quickly and quietly, but more than that, it expected it. The game, the developers, the players, they thought it would take nothing more than a letter to the studio and a flip of a switch for something that is to become something that was. In assuming so, they made a mistake, one in a long, long line, and not even the latest. The latest mistake was to pretend they made none to begin with - to defend their conviction with fanatical zealotry, to decide, against all evidence, that City of Heroes will and has simply ended, with no loose ends, no consequences for them. I don't see them admitting it - not publicly, not to themselves. It would shatter their pride, and the loose ends they're being whipped with and the flood of consequences washing their house away, if they close their eyes and cover their ears, they can believe, honestly believe, that they were, and always be right.

It is my belief that City of Heroes was shut down as a face-saving maneuver for NCSoft. The website with NCSoft reviews by employees brings up, several times, that management sticks strongly to Korean cultural norms. In Korean culture, it is very hard for a Korean to admit failure, and it is almost unforgivable to fail a superior -- a subordinate may simply avoid bringing news of a failure to a superior, even if they're only the messenger, with no connection to the failure. Additionally, it is personally devastating to lose face, and the ability to read another's state of mind to read the true sense of what is being conveyed in an exchange regardless of what is said -- a concept referred to as "nunchi", is essential in business dealings.

What does this have to do with City of Heroes? Look at NCSoft's stable of games. Their bread and butter is the group of MMOs that they run in Korea, China, and Japan; Korean-style MMOs all share a number of basic characteristics. They're not designed around the single player at their home computer; MMOs in Korea began with cyber cafes, where playing an MMO was a social experience with your friends at the cyber cafe, and continues to reflect this -- you don't sit in your room, log into the game, meet up with your guild, and do a quest, you go down to the cyber cafe, meet up with your guild, log into the game, and do a quest. The cyber cafes began with dial-up network access, which meant that graphically intensive games would strain or crash their bandwidth, so a cyber cafe would have only a few games on its computers, and they would not be complicated graphically (for example, one of the costs associated with NCSoft's rollout of Aion was paying cyber cafes to upgrade their computers to be able to run it). Early MMOs in Korea had limited storylines and engame content, so they kept players busy with large amounts of grinding -- repeating content over and over again either to advance a skill or to get a particular rare item that drops with a low probability from only a single particular mob; this playstyle has become the norm for Korean-style MMOs, oriented around people grinding in an MMO for a block of time with their friends in a cyber cafe. Quests couldn't give big rewards, because  there weren't that many of them, and big rewards would create dissatisfaction with the grinding of the rest of the game, and much of the content was designed around the expectation that you would be playing with a group of your friends, so the amount of solo-friendly content was even more limited. Open-world PvP was another way that the paucity of actual game content could be disguised, so an emphasis on PvP also became fixtures of Korean MMOs.

Western computer culture, on the other hand, had individual players at home connecting to the game server and socializing within the game server; the members of a guild could be scattered all across the country, and there was much more of a 'play when you have time' attitude, rather than the more structured 'go out and play as a group' socializing in Korea. Broadband was more widely available, so more graphically-intensive games like SW:G, Everquest 2, and WoW attracted players that they couldn't get in Korea, with the limited connections available at the cyber cafes of the time.

City of Heroes is about as close to an anthithesis of the Korean-style MMO as you're going to find -- the vast majority of the content can be done either solo or in a team, scaling the opposition to match your group, with few exceptions there are no 'single-source' loot drops, rewards drop to individual characters, not to the world where the group has to spend additional time arguing about who gets what rare drop this time (with the accompanying rarity of 'bind on pickup' drops, which further softens the hunt for particular drops), and it's quite possible to make it through the entire game without ever buying anything from the in-game store -- a feat which is well-nigh impossible for many Korean-style MMOs, which keep players scrambling to obtain the gear to keep themselves from falling behind the power curve.

NCSoft has brought a number of MMOs to the Western market that are fundamentally Korean in their play style, and by and large these MMOs have done poorly; they are essentially unchanged from their Korean releases, with only a 'localization package' to change the language to English. Each time they release a new MMO, it attracts a flood of new players attracted by the 'new shiny', then the population begins to drain away as the grindy and solo-hostile nature of the game becomes apparent, alienating players who want a more casual game. While this has been going on, City of Heroes has continued, turning a steady but not impressive profit.

This creates the appearance of a lack of nunchi on the part of NCSoft. They keep bringing games to the Western market that all share similar playstyles, and these games do poorly, while another of their games -- that is the opposite of that playstyle in so many ways -- is successful. It makes them look as if they can't figure out why City of Heroes has kept its following -- that they can't 'read' their customer base.

Killing City of Heroes eliminates the inconvenient counterexample. With it gone, NCSoft can return to bringing to the Western market its bread-and-butter grindfest MMOs, and convince itself that it's the subject, not the playstyle, that turns Western gamers off from their games. It preserves the kibun -- the face, or harmony, or balance -- of NCSoft by not having CoH shoving itself in their face pointing up the fact that the Western MMO market isn't the Korean MMO market, and they can't just transplant games to the Western market and expect that, if they find the right subject, we'll all suddenly recognize the inherent superiority of the Korean-style MMO and flock to play it in droves.

And the way that NCSoft handled the shutdown of City of Heroes shows that they do not -- or don't care to bother -- understand the difference between Korean and Western culture. Korean culture places a strong element on accepting your position in a power hierarchy relative to those above you; you may not like your superiors, but they must be shown respect and their decisions accepted. NCSoft's announcement that City of Heroes did not fit with their plans for the future of the company was a very Korean announcement, tailored to be neutral and avoid any implication of failure on the part of the game. Similarly, the Paragon Studios staff coming in on Friday and being hit with pink slips is also very Korean -- firing is often done 'out of the blue' on Fridays; this saves face for the employees by not making them come back and having to face their failure. NCSoft's subsequent announcement that they had "exhausted all opportunities" to sell the game was another quintissentially-Korean declaration, presenting a neutral and face-saving account to preserve kibun on both sides; from our subordinate position relative to them, we were expected to accept the declaration and go off quietly and stop dragging their face in the mud.

Unfortunately, this falls into the cultural divide between Korean and Western cultures. Korean cultures focus on harmony in relationships, even when honesty gets sacrificed in its preservation; Western cultures prize honesty, even when it causes friction. With its bland, content-free announcements, we see NCSoft as lying to us, either overtly or by omission, and that offends our sensibilities -- we feel as if we're being treated like fools. NCSoft, on the other hand, is showing over and over again that they can't be bothered to even consider that there are other cultures that don't work the same way -- they're proceeding according to their cultural precepts, and it's us who are not responding appropriately. They are in the superior position relative to their customers, and they've made the appropriate kibun-preserving nonstatements about the shutdown, and we're supposed to just accept it, go away, and not bother them.

Quinch

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2012, 05:24:21 PM »
I know that - I've kept up, more or less, with the original kibun thread. So yeah, that was their mistake - the expectation that we should simply disappear because it had been decided. So they pretend that they didn't make the mistake - that we are at fault for not submitting to our - as they see us - superiors, and not them, for having expectations which had no basis in reality. They've been so entrenched in their position of unassailable authority, a paradigm shift is simply unacceptable.

EventHorizonMan

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2012, 06:33:09 PM »
What I did right to the server going down:



What I saw after getting kicked off the server



Puts a lump in my throat knowing those indicators will never change again.  :gonk:

Event Horizon Man
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 06:51:03 PM by EventHorizonMan »

jeangray

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2012, 06:51:15 PM »
That picture makes me feel much the same EventHorizonMan.  :(

VyoletRose

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2012, 08:11:17 PM »
After the initial farewell announcement on August 31 - I felt like screaming. After the apathetic reply from NCSoft on October 2nd - I felt like screaming. After the servers closed for the final time on November 30th - I felt like screaming.

This is an art piece I created to express that very emotion.



I believe we all wanted to be heard.
Save City of Heroes | http://www.ourcityofheroes.com/

Menrva Channel

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2012, 08:52:51 PM »
I made it five... on Victory Server.



I had to end on the toon made for such affairs. Her name is Hope. And forever, my last site of Paragon was this.

I didn't keep the copy paste because she was so obscured by the blue names and that damned text about getting disconnected from the servers.... Now I almost wish I had...

srmalloy

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2012, 09:07:39 PM »
I was on Guardian, playing Pakfront, the AR/EM Blaster that was my first character, created on May 8, 2004, in the Rikti War Zone (RWZ 2 and 3 later spawned as the zones filled). At 2330 PST, we stepped out to clear the pylons one final time:



With all the pylons down, we moved onto the Rikti mothership to begin planting bombs:



With smoke rising from the shafts where our bombs had gone off, we gathered on the edge of the bowl looking down at the Rikti assembled there and leapt into the fight:



Once we entered the bowl and took down U'kon G'rai, we settled into our stride, felling every Rikti who rose against us:



When the game server finally shut down, there were too many effects playing on the screen for me to get a nice, genteel "You have been forcibly disconnected from the server" popup; I got the 'connection lost' text and my client locked up, forcing me to bring up the task manager and forcibly shut down the CoH client process, preventing me from getting a final screenshot.

How each of us faced the end was, by its nature, a very personal choice. My villains remained where they were; the Rogue Isles were never a goal in and of themselves, but merely a stepping-stone toward their greater goals, and they had never acquired any particular attachment to one spot or another. The vast majority of my heroes returned to Atlas Park to face the end where they had begun, in a place that encouraged them to rise above themselves, in the company of those who, like themselves, had stood up for the greater good of all. One, doubly orphaned from both her home dimension and her adopted culture, chose to seek out the Matrix room in Peregrine Island and await the end in contemplation. But my final, and original, character went out as she began, standing beside her fellow heroes in open delcaration that not even impending destruction was sufficient to make them lay down their arms and give up the role they had assumed as Paragon City's defenders.

Many times over the last three months, I have been drawn back to Prospero's valediction from William Shakespeare's "The Tempest", Act 4, Scene 1:

Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a wrack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.


My thanks to everyone at Paragon Studios, and at Cryptic before them, for having given us the tools to have created such glorious dreams, to Samuraiko and the rest who put some of those dreams in a more lasting record so that our memories of them shall not dim with time, to all those whose characters stood beside mine as we brought those dreams to life, and to all those who have put so much time and effort into attempting to halt the shutdown of the game, or trying to arrange its rise from its ashes. I hope that what made City of Heroes what it was does not die the real death, that we will see it reborn, if only in spirit, but I can never forget what all of us have done over the last eight and a half years.


"Heroes may die, but heroism never shall." -- Cyrus Oliver Thompson, 'Breakneck' (retired)


EventHorizonMan

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2012, 09:23:59 PM »
Srmalloy, what an amazing way to go, with a big triumphant bang! Thanks for sharing!

Event Horizon Man

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2012, 09:48:42 PM »
How each of us faced the end was, by its nature, a very personal choice. My villains remained where they were; the Rogue Isles were never a goal in and of themselves, but merely a stepping-stone toward their greater goals, and they had never acquired any particular attachment to one spot or another. The vast majority of my heroes returned to Atlas Park to face the end where they had begun, in a place that encouraged them to rise above themselves, in the company of those who, like themselves, had stood up for the greater good of all. One, doubly orphaned from both her home dimension and her adopted culture, chose to seek out the Matrix room in Peregrine Island and await the end in contemplation. But my final, and original, character went out as she began, standing beside her fellow heroes in open delcaration that not even impending destruction was sufficient to make them lay down their arms and give up the role they had assumed as Paragon City's defenders.

Many times over the last three months, I have been drawn back to Prospero's valediction from William Shakespeare's "The Tempest", Act 4, Scene 1:

Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a wrack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.


My thanks to everyone at Paragon Studios, and at Cryptic before them, for having given us the tools to have created such glorious dreams, to Samuraiko and the rest who put some of those dreams in a more lasting record so that our memories of them shall not dim with time, to all those whose characters stood beside mine as we brought those dreams to life, and to all those who have put so much time and effort into attempting to halt the shutdown of the game, or trying to arrange its rise from its ashes. I hope that what made City of Heroes what it was does not die the real death, that we will see it reborn, if only in spirit, but I can never forget what all of us have done over the last eight and a half years.


"Heroes may die, but heroism never shall." -- Cyrus Oliver Thompson, 'Breakneck' (retired)

Before "retiring" my entire crew (my final two were made specifically for the end of days), I logged each in a place I thought appropriate. Many were in Pocket D, a favorite, or the chalet. I had one in hero base, and a handful in Atlas. My last tribute to red side was in our base I loved so much. And... as you saw, my final stand in AP. It was a very personal thing... and I can't get over just /how/ personal and painful this all was--is.

Thank you so much for those beautiful quotes. I am an English teacher and a lover of Shakespeare. It is so very fitting. This is why I love our community--and always shall. We, like our heroes, are unique but united by a common cause.

Colette

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2012, 10:18:21 PM »
Hang on now! This is fundamentally important here.

"They [NCSoft] are in the superior position relative to their customers...."

"...from our subordinate position relative to them, we were expected to accept the declaration...."

Is this not the crux of the cultural problem? We in the west see corporations as working for us, the paying customers. Now avoiding any anti-Korean or cultural trolling, (I am not anti-Korean, I'm anti NCSoft.) does this not explain the entire misunderstanding? They see us as subordinates, where we do not. That's absolutely vital.

TonyV

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2012, 10:26:31 PM »
Hang on now! This is fundamentally important here.

"They [NCSoft] are in the superior position relative to their customers...."

"...from our subordinate position relative to them, we were expected to accept the declaration...."

Is this not the crux of the cultural problem? We in the west see corporations as working for us, the paying customers. Now avoiding any anti-Korean or cultural trolling, (I am not anti-Korean, I'm anti NCSoft.) does this not explain the entire misunderstanding? They see us as subordinates, where we do not. That's absolutely vital.

Keep in mind that several of the NCsoft executives have spent extensive time in the United States.  Any kind of cultural stereotyping really turns me off because NCsoft isn't run by just any ol' average Korean citizens, it's run by people who have traveled extensively and lived in multicultural environments.  Plus, it also could be a critical error in assessing the nature of the individuals running NCsoft.

That's not to say that I don't agree that they've grossly misjudged the western market (which in some ways as an aggregate can be stereotyped since we're not talking about players on an individual basis here), but I don't want to pin the reason why on any Korean cultural aspect.  To be honest, it doesn't really matter much why they believe it because whatever the reason, it's highly unlikely to change.  I just think that making assumptions that it's because they're Korean and then using those assumptions to try to predict how they'll feel or act about something else is misleading and detrimental.

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2012, 10:47:23 PM »

emu265

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2012, 10:51:32 PM »
Keep in mind that several of the NCsoft executives have spent extensive time in the United States.  Any kind of cultural stereotyping really turns me off because NCsoft isn't run by just any ol' average Korean citizens, it's run by people who have traveled extensively and lived in multicultural environments.  Plus, it also could be a critical error in assessing the nature of the individuals running NCsoft.

That's not to say that I don't agree that they've grossly misjudged the western market (which in some ways as an aggregate can be stereotyped since we're not talking about players on an individual basis here), but I don't want to pin the reason why on any Korean cultural aspect.  To be honest, it doesn't really matter much why they believe it because whatever the reason, it's highly unlikely to change.  I just think that making assumptions that it's because they're Korean and then using those assumptions to try to predict how they'll feel or act about something else is misleading and detrimental.

Well thank you, this one of the things I've been trying to get through to people.  NCSoft has obviously made mistakes, but average people, let alone idiots, do not run corporations. 

That is the biggest compliment I will ever give them, "not idiots".  But it kind of bothers me when people just insult them without realizing how they are probably a group of very talented and driven people. 

That said, I want the IP or I want them bankrupt.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2012, 11:39:13 PM »
Not idiots.

Sociopaths.

And before anyone protests, let me ask how someone could ignore the pleas of people in the Testimonials thread and not be a sociopath?
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

TonyV

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2012, 11:44:26 PM »
Not idiots.

Sociopaths.

And before anyone protests, let me ask how someone could ignore the pleas of people in the Testimonials thread and not be a sociopath?

Come on now, I see no reason to disparage the reputation of honest, hard-working sociopaths...

NecrotechMaster

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2012, 01:46:26 AM »


i think this is mostly correct except the part about how much inf was being held by characters, unless it was only counting what characters actually had on them instead of stored in emails or the market, cause i knew many poeple who had 4x that amount spread among their characters

Colette

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2012, 01:46:59 AM »
This is a vital discussion, and now that I've had a much-needed nap and am thinking more clearly, let's look things over.

"Any kind of cultural stereotyping really turns me off"

Fair enough, Tony. That argument has merit. We are working in a vacuum, though. NCSoft has said so little, and what they have said has been... all wrong. It sounds to me that Srmalloy knows what he's talking about. (For my part I do not. My brief time in Korea only let me know how very different the place is.) Perhaps it would be productive if he, and others here with real cultural experience, could come together and teach us all about what is true and not true about Korean culture, and what it reveals about Mr. Kim and the way he does business. Naturally, that thread would need to be especially heavily regulated. (I applaud the care y'all put into moderating these boards.)

"Not idiots. Sociopaths."

Love'ya V.V., and heaven knows I'm furious at NCSoft too. But having seriously ruminated over what Srmalloy wrote, I think I may have isolated something important.

I believe Mr. Kim and company, as producers of "grind" MMOs, see these programs as fungible cookie-cutter product, much as, say. many film producers see their movies as widgets and never actually read the scripts. Therefore, our reaction is completely incomprehensible to them.

We on the other hand, recognise CoH as a unique cultural artifact. I understand it is the only MMO that features costume contests where people create and exhibit their creations, and the only MMO where one may create and share their own stories. (Y'all feel free to correct me, I'm hardly an expert on MMOs.)

Do we, the players do that for a profit? No. We do those things for self expression. In a word: art. When CoH came out, perhaps it was mere commercial art at best. But after eight years of growth and accumulation, I believe it is -- culturally relevant and worthy of preservation.

Suppose that Mr. Kim purchased a Goya or a Van Gogh. (Probably could.) He owns it, he can secure it, exhibit it, charge money for it... but even he would almost certainly recoil at the thought of wantonly setting a Goya on fire! That would make him a barbarian, a vandal no better than those awful Taliban who dynamited those Buddhist statues in Afghanistan.

But if he doesn't recognise CoH as art, then indeed his actions would appear to us, as you put it, "sociopathic," without actually being so. You see? And he would fail to understand why he's suddenly being called a brutish, uncultured barbarian.

I'm not trying to defend NCSoft. God knows Srmalloy's description viscerally repels me (but then, so does kimchi.  ;)) But I would like to understand NCSoft. Perhaps then we could formulate a better, more effective approach.

Oh, Gangrel? I don't think I'm following your argument. My sympathies in advance, but what is this awful thing you're talking about?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 02:02:44 AM by Colette »

pikabko1000

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2012, 05:13:39 AM »
I was there for the last second. The very last second.well lets start with the 30 minutes warning the servers will be turned off. The chat line went nuts!
one went " NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and hell of a lot Good byes to each other
what I wanted to do is get a phone number of Paragon Studios and give them my regards of a great job on the creations and ask what can be done about NC SOFT and follow up on there rude your Fired pink slip. I realy wnated to talk to some one
ask fopr a off line mod ask about selling the rights to some one else. to hope to get back on in the near future
any one with phone number please let me know thanks

Ichaerus

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2012, 06:20:29 AM »
Beta server went down at 0018 on December 1st.  Yet another day that will live in infamy.  What the hell is it with bad stuff happening in December?  :'(

dwturducken

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2012, 06:27:16 AM »
We went out on Champion, in Atlas 3, having a drum party on Atlas' ass. At 11:15 PST, though, we were on Pinnacle, in our Arabian Knights SG characters. Three of us positioned ourselves among the vigil and then simultaneously self destructed.  One of us even shouted "For Allah!"  It got a laugh.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

TargetOne

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2012, 06:03:01 PM »
I took two days off from work just so I could be in the game Friday evening. Spent much of the afternoon taking screenshots of my most important characters, as well as running the Sentinel+ character extraction on them.

Throughout the evening, I fervently kept retrying after every mapserver/disconnect, especially the one that happened about ten minutes before the cutoff point.

I had my main character dancing with a few friends and a ton of other players in Pocket D on my VIP account, and a clone standing vigil in AP33 on my spare free account, when it all came to an end.

After the "you have been forcibly disconnected from the server" message, I just kind of sat there for long minutes, staring at the screen and feeling alternately sad and numb. I'm not ashamed to admit, I actually did cry.

Globetrotter

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2012, 06:12:46 PM »
I actually did cry.

And so did I. It was a few minutes past 9 in the morning. I had been up all night. When that final message came, I broke and cried hot tears  :-*
Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi, sed saepe cadendo.

srmalloy

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2012, 11:13:28 PM »
Keep in mind that several of the NCsoft executives have spent extensive time in the United States.  Any kind of cultural stereotyping really turns me off because NCsoft isn't run by just any ol' average Korean citizens, it's run by people who have traveled extensively and lived in multicultural environments.  Plus, it also could be a critical error in assessing the nature of the individuals running NCsoft.

That's not to say that I don't agree that they've grossly misjudged the western market (which in some ways as an aggregate can be stereotyped since we're not talking about players on an individual basis here), but I don't want to pin the reason why on any Korean cultural aspect.  To be honest, it doesn't really matter much why they believe it because whatever the reason, it's highly unlikely to change.  I just think that making assumptions that it's because they're Korean and then using those assumptions to try to predict how they'll feel or act about something else is misleading and detrimental.

The shuttering of Paragon Studios was done in a manner consistent with the way job terminations are routinely conducted in Korea. The announcement of the shutdown of Paragon Studios and the closure of the game was couched in carefully neutral terms while making it clear that this was a high-level decision that had already been made. Both of these actions fit very tightly to Korean cultural precepts, and by Korean standards, it was done with consideration both to the Paragon Studios staff and the CoH playerbase, and the reaction of someone raised in Korean culture would have been to accept that the decision had been made at a level above them, no matter how much they disagreed with it, and move on.

We're not Koreans, and we didn't react 'appropriately'. Firing someone out of the blue like that, particularly with no visible evidence that their job performance was substandard, is regarded as horrible management practice.  And when someone tries to tear something we love out of our hands with no visible justification, we fight back. These reactions are utterly foreign to Korean culture, where even _truth_ can take a back seat to preserving harmony.

NCSoft's second announcement, proclaiming that they'd 'exhausted all opportunities to sell the game', was another carefully-worded Korean-style pronouncement from on high; if we were to react appropriately by Korean standards, we would have accepted that NCSoft had, with all diligence, explored selling the game and had been unable to find a buyer, and once more would have moved on. To no one's surprise except, perhaps, theirs, we cried fewmets over this announcement and continued to denounce NCSoft management.

Albert Einstein once defined 'insanity' as doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. The initial shutdown announcement showed that NCSoft management is either so devoid of nunchi as to be unable to understand the differences between the Korean and Western markets and the customers therein, or they're so arrogant that they don't think they have to bother trying to understand the way we think. As a result, far from preserving kibun, they only aroused the CoH playerbase to action. And after our campaign to get them to reconsider, NCSoft came back and issued the same sort of culturally-myopic statement, proving that not only didn't  they understand the differences in the Western market and Western customers, they either couldn't or wouldn't learn from the initial failure of their approach to get the 'appropriate' results and tried the same thing again, and got the same reaction.

NCSoft wants to be a major player in the world online-games market. But as long as they hold on to the parochial attitudes they have exhibited, they're going to continue to come crashing up against the fact that the cultural norms they hold so dearly are not shared with the vast majority of their would-be customers. If they want to be competitive, they're going to have to learn to work in other cultures, not merely hand down decisions from on high and expect their customers to suck it up and accept them.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2012, 03:15:57 AM »
Absolutely true, @srmalloy.  The pure fact of the matter is that when OTHER international companies venture into a new country, they do their best to find out what NOT to do and what TO do to fit in, from Pizza Hut removing the cheese from its pizza in China to Toyota adapting their workforce practices in Georgia.

NCSoft has proven it does not deserve to be a world player.

As for me.  I broke down and cried so hard I had trouble breathing when the disconnect notice hit, and cried until my eyes couldn't squeeze out any more tears.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Fulcrum

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2012, 03:28:24 AM »
I'll admit it.  I shed a few tears as well until I decided on a course of action that really helped me find a little closure until PlanZ or an emulator for CoH comes to light:

I spent an entire day creating a rather large NCsoft logo in effigy.  I spent long hours getting it -just- right... a masterpiece of cardstock, of paint and wire.

And then I burned it in a fire.  Burned it in a fire so hot that even the wires I used to hold it in shape melted into little more than slag while I shouted obscenities at the pyre.

After the fire was cold and dead this morning, I lovingly gathered up what was left of the ashes...  made waste in them... and buried it all on the back side of my property.

All in all?  I feel much better today than I have since the closure notice.

NecrotechMaster

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2012, 07:07:28 AM »
I'll admit it.  I shed a few tears as well until I decided on a course of action that really helped me find a little closure until PlanZ or an emulator for CoH comes to light:

I spent an entire day creating a rather large NCsoft logo in effigy.  I spent long hours getting it -just- right... a masterpiece of cardstock, of paint and wire.

And then I burned it in a fire.  Burned it in a fire so hot that even the wires I used to hold it in shape melted into little more than slag while I shouted obscenities at the pyre.

After the fire was cold and dead this morning, I lovingly gathered up what was left of the ashes...  made waste in them... and buried it all on the back side of my property.

All in all?  I feel much better today than I have since the closure notice.

ill have to say, thats a pretty epic way to say "eff you ncsoft!" lol

Fulcrum

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2012, 07:17:55 AM »
ill have to say, thats a pretty epic way to say "eff you ncsoft!" lol

Elaborate?   Yes.

Satisfying?   Intensely.   

My only regret was not recording it for posterity.

Rejuvenatrix

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2012, 09:40:04 AM »

As for me.  I broke down and cried so hard I had trouble breathing when the disconnect notice hit, and cried until my eyes couldn't squeeze out any more tears.


*sends VV a big hug*  I know just how you feel...I cried too...

I took off from work on Friday, and spent the day doing demorecords and using the sentinel extractor on all my toons.  I was joined on Mumble voice chat with many of my Urban Renewal SG and chat channel friends, throughout the afternoon and evening, and long after we were forcibly ripped from the servers. Some of us were doing missions till right before the end, and some were visiting favorite spots. I finally got to see the Matrix Room.  I even finally, after almost 8 years, broke down and actually did my first little bit of role play in Pocket D, with one of my first toons, saying farewell (until we meet again) to one of her favorite duo partners.  I took another toon through the SG base, making a video of her walking tour, as she shared her thoughts about her SG mates and having to leave her "home".  Shortly before midnight, we all tried to join together in our base, however, being on Virtue, we kept getting d/c'd (this had happened several times throughout the night), and having to wait to get back on.  By the time 3am est hit, most of us had gotten back on, but mostly ended up on different servers, as Virtue was red, and we panicked, fleeing to the first available server where we had other toons. I managed to find the first toon I ever made on my own account (I started playing on my husband's account, which lasted about 2 weeks, before he bought me my own copy of the game). I had moved her there, because after I got her to 50, I decided to start over with a different secondary power.  I hopped an Ouro portal to AP, and found myself on the steps next to Mr. Davis, who's wife I had spent some time chatting with on Virtue, in AP 33. We were joined by several other people, just before the disconnect.  Rejuvenatrix went out of Paragon City as she had arrived, alone in AP, with no SG. It was so horribly sad. Even though we were all still on Mumble, it just didn't really console me at all.  I wanted that little bit of time in the base, to sit together and say our farewells. I didn't get the little bit of closure that would have made me feel not quite so horrible. Yes, I know it's just a game, and yes, I know my toons weren't real. But they had stories, in my head, and after 8 years, they wanted some closure. I couldn't even really speak on Mumble for a few minutes after the d/c, because I was crying. And even though the core group of people in our group have made plans to play other games together (one person is even going to run a rp group using the Marvel cards system, but based on CoH characters), for me, it will never be the same. CoH was a better game than all the others, and losing it is like losing a friend.

*sends some hugs to everyone*

srmalloy

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2012, 05:26:32 PM »
Elaborate?   Yes.

Satisfying?   Intensely.   

My only regret was not recording it for posterity.

And, unfortunately, there are laws in place that would have made it impractical to ship to NCSoft as a final expression of your reaction to their shuttering City of Heroes...

Fulcrum

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2012, 05:43:36 PM »
And, unfortunately, there are laws in place that would have made it impractical to ship to NCSoft as a final expression of your reaction to their shuttering City of Heroes...

Impractical and downright illegal in most states, yes.

However.  The thought did cross my mind. ;)

Colette

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2012, 02:01:57 AM »
Srmalloy, you have earned my full attention. What is your background in the study of Korea?

Do we have any others where with a relevant background who can offer their opinions?

srmalloy

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2012, 02:38:31 AM »
Srmalloy, you have earned my full attention. What is your background in the study of Korea?

No formal background at all, just an amateur military history buff. But you can't understand the history of a region without understanding the cultures to know why decisions were made the way they did.

JWBullfrog

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2012, 02:57:14 AM »
We made it to 5 minutes past on Protector.
 
I don't know who did it but, just before the hour, sombody popped a temporary snowstorm power. It seemed just so appropriate that, as the world was ending, snow started to fall.
 
Tears, sorrow, knowing that all of those beautiful maniacs standing around me would soon be gone. Heh, I'm starting to tear up now thinking about it. And then, as the disconnect message hit and that hateful little white box popped up on my screen, I looked down at the chat window for the last time and saw the final message out of Protector Server...
 
"NCSoft can't even shut down a game properly."
 
Love you, Protector. I'll be back again as soon as I can.
 
 
As long as somebody keeps making up stories for it, the City isn't gone.