Author Topic: 4 minutes past midnight  (Read 16096 times)

Colette

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2012, 03:01:19 PM »
Way ahead of ya, Jetfire. 8)

Turjan

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2012, 03:02:09 PM »
They have How and What and Where and Whens on their FAQ page, but they missed a question there - the most important one in fact. The question uppermost in the mind of everybody today :-

Why is City of heroes closing?

Perhaps we should contact support and say the page was unhelpful to us for this reason ;)

Colette

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2012, 03:28:52 PM »
Also note the deliberately obfuscatory language. They make it sound like the servers shut themselves down.

Who is closing the servers down?

emu265

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2012, 03:34:05 PM »
Also note the deliberately obfuscatory language. They make it sound like the servers shut themselves down.

Who is closing the servers down?
Seriously...  Makes me angry...

houtex

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2012, 03:58:36 PM »
Actually... this is shoking for me. I never saw a company pushing everything so fast into the dustbin like NCSoft did. Usually the forum will be held online for some months to keep the community together and offer them another product. But like everything was done now with COH, this is just ridiculus.  :o

The reason for the forums being shut down, IMO, is the fact that it is not pretty for them to keep it running.  There is not a lot of 'like' for NCSoft there anymore.  No point in reminding people with your own property that you suck.  Take it down.

That they didn't before hand?  Amazed.  Really.  It got ugly over there.

srmalloy

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2012, 05:11:04 PM »
The evidence is that NCsoft wanted City of Heroes to go away quickly and quietly, but more than that, it expected it. The game, the developers, the players, they thought it would take nothing more than a letter to the studio and a flip of a switch for something that is to become something that was. In assuming so, they made a mistake, one in a long, long line, and not even the latest. The latest mistake was to pretend they made none to begin with - to defend their conviction with fanatical zealotry, to decide, against all evidence, that City of Heroes will and has simply ended, with no loose ends, no consequences for them. I don't see them admitting it - not publicly, not to themselves. It would shatter their pride, and the loose ends they're being whipped with and the flood of consequences washing their house away, if they close their eyes and cover their ears, they can believe, honestly believe, that they were, and always be right.

It is my belief that City of Heroes was shut down as a face-saving maneuver for NCSoft. The website with NCSoft reviews by employees brings up, several times, that management sticks strongly to Korean cultural norms. In Korean culture, it is very hard for a Korean to admit failure, and it is almost unforgivable to fail a superior -- a subordinate may simply avoid bringing news of a failure to a superior, even if they're only the messenger, with no connection to the failure. Additionally, it is personally devastating to lose face, and the ability to read another's state of mind to read the true sense of what is being conveyed in an exchange regardless of what is said -- a concept referred to as "nunchi", is essential in business dealings.

What does this have to do with City of Heroes? Look at NCSoft's stable of games. Their bread and butter is the group of MMOs that they run in Korea, China, and Japan; Korean-style MMOs all share a number of basic characteristics. They're not designed around the single player at their home computer; MMOs in Korea began with cyber cafes, where playing an MMO was a social experience with your friends at the cyber cafe, and continues to reflect this -- you don't sit in your room, log into the game, meet up with your guild, and do a quest, you go down to the cyber cafe, meet up with your guild, log into the game, and do a quest. The cyber cafes began with dial-up network access, which meant that graphically intensive games would strain or crash their bandwidth, so a cyber cafe would have only a few games on its computers, and they would not be complicated graphically (for example, one of the costs associated with NCSoft's rollout of Aion was paying cyber cafes to upgrade their computers to be able to run it). Early MMOs in Korea had limited storylines and engame content, so they kept players busy with large amounts of grinding -- repeating content over and over again either to advance a skill or to get a particular rare item that drops with a low probability from only a single particular mob; this playstyle has become the norm for Korean-style MMOs, oriented around people grinding in an MMO for a block of time with their friends in a cyber cafe. Quests couldn't give big rewards, because  there weren't that many of them, and big rewards would create dissatisfaction with the grinding of the rest of the game, and much of the content was designed around the expectation that you would be playing with a group of your friends, so the amount of solo-friendly content was even more limited. Open-world PvP was another way that the paucity of actual game content could be disguised, so an emphasis on PvP also became fixtures of Korean MMOs.

Western computer culture, on the other hand, had individual players at home connecting to the game server and socializing within the game server; the members of a guild could be scattered all across the country, and there was much more of a 'play when you have time' attitude, rather than the more structured 'go out and play as a group' socializing in Korea. Broadband was more widely available, so more graphically-intensive games like SW:G, Everquest 2, and WoW attracted players that they couldn't get in Korea, with the limited connections available at the cyber cafes of the time.

City of Heroes is about as close to an anthithesis of the Korean-style MMO as you're going to find -- the vast majority of the content can be done either solo or in a team, scaling the opposition to match your group, with few exceptions there are no 'single-source' loot drops, rewards drop to individual characters, not to the world where the group has to spend additional time arguing about who gets what rare drop this time (with the accompanying rarity of 'bind on pickup' drops, which further softens the hunt for particular drops), and it's quite possible to make it through the entire game without ever buying anything from the in-game store -- a feat which is well-nigh impossible for many Korean-style MMOs, which keep players scrambling to obtain the gear to keep themselves from falling behind the power curve.

NCSoft has brought a number of MMOs to the Western market that are fundamentally Korean in their play style, and by and large these MMOs have done poorly; they are essentially unchanged from their Korean releases, with only a 'localization package' to change the language to English. Each time they release a new MMO, it attracts a flood of new players attracted by the 'new shiny', then the population begins to drain away as the grindy and solo-hostile nature of the game becomes apparent, alienating players who want a more casual game. While this has been going on, City of Heroes has continued, turning a steady but not impressive profit.

This creates the appearance of a lack of nunchi on the part of NCSoft. They keep bringing games to the Western market that all share similar playstyles, and these games do poorly, while another of their games -- that is the opposite of that playstyle in so many ways -- is successful. It makes them look as if they can't figure out why City of Heroes has kept its following -- that they can't 'read' their customer base.

Killing City of Heroes eliminates the inconvenient counterexample. With it gone, NCSoft can return to bringing to the Western market its bread-and-butter grindfest MMOs, and convince itself that it's the subject, not the playstyle, that turns Western gamers off from their games. It preserves the kibun -- the face, or harmony, or balance -- of NCSoft by not having CoH shoving itself in their face pointing up the fact that the Western MMO market isn't the Korean MMO market, and they can't just transplant games to the Western market and expect that, if they find the right subject, we'll all suddenly recognize the inherent superiority of the Korean-style MMO and flock to play it in droves.

And the way that NCSoft handled the shutdown of City of Heroes shows that they do not -- or don't care to bother -- understand the difference between Korean and Western culture. Korean culture places a strong element on accepting your position in a power hierarchy relative to those above you; you may not like your superiors, but they must be shown respect and their decisions accepted. NCSoft's announcement that City of Heroes did not fit with their plans for the future of the company was a very Korean announcement, tailored to be neutral and avoid any implication of failure on the part of the game. Similarly, the Paragon Studios staff coming in on Friday and being hit with pink slips is also very Korean -- firing is often done 'out of the blue' on Fridays; this saves face for the employees by not making them come back and having to face their failure. NCSoft's subsequent announcement that they had "exhausted all opportunities" to sell the game was another quintissentially-Korean declaration, presenting a neutral and face-saving account to preserve kibun on both sides; from our subordinate position relative to them, we were expected to accept the declaration and go off quietly and stop dragging their face in the mud.

Unfortunately, this falls into the cultural divide between Korean and Western cultures. Korean cultures focus on harmony in relationships, even when honesty gets sacrificed in its preservation; Western cultures prize honesty, even when it causes friction. With its bland, content-free announcements, we see NCSoft as lying to us, either overtly or by omission, and that offends our sensibilities -- we feel as if we're being treated like fools. NCSoft, on the other hand, is showing over and over again that they can't be bothered to even consider that there are other cultures that don't work the same way -- they're proceeding according to their cultural precepts, and it's us who are not responding appropriately. They are in the superior position relative to their customers, and they've made the appropriate kibun-preserving nonstatements about the shutdown, and we're supposed to just accept it, go away, and not bother them.

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2012, 05:24:21 PM »
I know that - I've kept up, more or less, with the original kibun thread. So yeah, that was their mistake - the expectation that we should simply disappear because it had been decided. So they pretend that they didn't make the mistake - that we are at fault for not submitting to our - as they see us - superiors, and not them, for having expectations which had no basis in reality. They've been so entrenched in their position of unassailable authority, a paradigm shift is simply unacceptable.

EventHorizonMan

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2012, 06:33:09 PM »
What I did right to the server going down:



What I saw after getting kicked off the server



Puts a lump in my throat knowing those indicators will never change again.  :gonk:

Event Horizon Man
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 06:51:03 PM by EventHorizonMan »

jeangray

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2012, 06:51:15 PM »
That picture makes me feel much the same EventHorizonMan.  :(

VyoletRose

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2012, 08:11:17 PM »
After the initial farewell announcement on August 31 - I felt like screaming. After the apathetic reply from NCSoft on October 2nd - I felt like screaming. After the servers closed for the final time on November 30th - I felt like screaming.

This is an art piece I created to express that very emotion.



I believe we all wanted to be heard.
Save City of Heroes | http://www.ourcityofheroes.com/

Menrva Channel

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2012, 08:52:51 PM »
I made it five... on Victory Server.



I had to end on the toon made for such affairs. Her name is Hope. And forever, my last site of Paragon was this.

I didn't keep the copy paste because she was so obscured by the blue names and that damned text about getting disconnected from the servers.... Now I almost wish I had...

srmalloy

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2012, 09:07:39 PM »
I was on Guardian, playing Pakfront, the AR/EM Blaster that was my first character, created on May 8, 2004, in the Rikti War Zone (RWZ 2 and 3 later spawned as the zones filled). At 2330 PST, we stepped out to clear the pylons one final time:



With all the pylons down, we moved onto the Rikti mothership to begin planting bombs:



With smoke rising from the shafts where our bombs had gone off, we gathered on the edge of the bowl looking down at the Rikti assembled there and leapt into the fight:



Once we entered the bowl and took down U'kon G'rai, we settled into our stride, felling every Rikti who rose against us:



When the game server finally shut down, there were too many effects playing on the screen for me to get a nice, genteel "You have been forcibly disconnected from the server" popup; I got the 'connection lost' text and my client locked up, forcing me to bring up the task manager and forcibly shut down the CoH client process, preventing me from getting a final screenshot.

How each of us faced the end was, by its nature, a very personal choice. My villains remained where they were; the Rogue Isles were never a goal in and of themselves, but merely a stepping-stone toward their greater goals, and they had never acquired any particular attachment to one spot or another. The vast majority of my heroes returned to Atlas Park to face the end where they had begun, in a place that encouraged them to rise above themselves, in the company of those who, like themselves, had stood up for the greater good of all. One, doubly orphaned from both her home dimension and her adopted culture, chose to seek out the Matrix room in Peregrine Island and await the end in contemplation. But my final, and original, character went out as she began, standing beside her fellow heroes in open delcaration that not even impending destruction was sufficient to make them lay down their arms and give up the role they had assumed as Paragon City's defenders.

Many times over the last three months, I have been drawn back to Prospero's valediction from William Shakespeare's "The Tempest", Act 4, Scene 1:

Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a wrack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.


My thanks to everyone at Paragon Studios, and at Cryptic before them, for having given us the tools to have created such glorious dreams, to Samuraiko and the rest who put some of those dreams in a more lasting record so that our memories of them shall not dim with time, to all those whose characters stood beside mine as we brought those dreams to life, and to all those who have put so much time and effort into attempting to halt the shutdown of the game, or trying to arrange its rise from its ashes. I hope that what made City of Heroes what it was does not die the real death, that we will see it reborn, if only in spirit, but I can never forget what all of us have done over the last eight and a half years.


"Heroes may die, but heroism never shall." -- Cyrus Oliver Thompson, 'Breakneck' (retired)


EventHorizonMan

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2012, 09:23:59 PM »
Srmalloy, what an amazing way to go, with a big triumphant bang! Thanks for sharing!

Event Horizon Man

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2012, 09:48:42 PM »
How each of us faced the end was, by its nature, a very personal choice. My villains remained where they were; the Rogue Isles were never a goal in and of themselves, but merely a stepping-stone toward their greater goals, and they had never acquired any particular attachment to one spot or another. The vast majority of my heroes returned to Atlas Park to face the end where they had begun, in a place that encouraged them to rise above themselves, in the company of those who, like themselves, had stood up for the greater good of all. One, doubly orphaned from both her home dimension and her adopted culture, chose to seek out the Matrix room in Peregrine Island and await the end in contemplation. But my final, and original, character went out as she began, standing beside her fellow heroes in open delcaration that not even impending destruction was sufficient to make them lay down their arms and give up the role they had assumed as Paragon City's defenders.

Many times over the last three months, I have been drawn back to Prospero's valediction from William Shakespeare's "The Tempest", Act 4, Scene 1:

Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a wrack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.


My thanks to everyone at Paragon Studios, and at Cryptic before them, for having given us the tools to have created such glorious dreams, to Samuraiko and the rest who put some of those dreams in a more lasting record so that our memories of them shall not dim with time, to all those whose characters stood beside mine as we brought those dreams to life, and to all those who have put so much time and effort into attempting to halt the shutdown of the game, or trying to arrange its rise from its ashes. I hope that what made City of Heroes what it was does not die the real death, that we will see it reborn, if only in spirit, but I can never forget what all of us have done over the last eight and a half years.


"Heroes may die, but heroism never shall." -- Cyrus Oliver Thompson, 'Breakneck' (retired)

Before "retiring" my entire crew (my final two were made specifically for the end of days), I logged each in a place I thought appropriate. Many were in Pocket D, a favorite, or the chalet. I had one in hero base, and a handful in Atlas. My last tribute to red side was in our base I loved so much. And... as you saw, my final stand in AP. It was a very personal thing... and I can't get over just /how/ personal and painful this all was--is.

Thank you so much for those beautiful quotes. I am an English teacher and a lover of Shakespeare. It is so very fitting. This is why I love our community--and always shall. We, like our heroes, are unique but united by a common cause.

Colette

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2012, 10:18:21 PM »
Hang on now! This is fundamentally important here.

"They [NCSoft] are in the superior position relative to their customers...."

"...from our subordinate position relative to them, we were expected to accept the declaration...."

Is this not the crux of the cultural problem? We in the west see corporations as working for us, the paying customers. Now avoiding any anti-Korean or cultural trolling, (I am not anti-Korean, I'm anti NCSoft.) does this not explain the entire misunderstanding? They see us as subordinates, where we do not. That's absolutely vital.

TonyV

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2012, 10:26:31 PM »
Hang on now! This is fundamentally important here.

"They [NCSoft] are in the superior position relative to their customers...."

"...from our subordinate position relative to them, we were expected to accept the declaration...."

Is this not the crux of the cultural problem? We in the west see corporations as working for us, the paying customers. Now avoiding any anti-Korean or cultural trolling, (I am not anti-Korean, I'm anti NCSoft.) does this not explain the entire misunderstanding? They see us as subordinates, where we do not. That's absolutely vital.

Keep in mind that several of the NCsoft executives have spent extensive time in the United States.  Any kind of cultural stereotyping really turns me off because NCsoft isn't run by just any ol' average Korean citizens, it's run by people who have traveled extensively and lived in multicultural environments.  Plus, it also could be a critical error in assessing the nature of the individuals running NCsoft.

That's not to say that I don't agree that they've grossly misjudged the western market (which in some ways as an aggregate can be stereotyped since we're not talking about players on an individual basis here), but I don't want to pin the reason why on any Korean cultural aspect.  To be honest, it doesn't really matter much why they believe it because whatever the reason, it's highly unlikely to change.  I just think that making assumptions that it's because they're Korean and then using those assumptions to try to predict how they'll feel or act about something else is misleading and detrimental.

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2012, 10:47:23 PM »

emu265

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2012, 10:51:32 PM »
Keep in mind that several of the NCsoft executives have spent extensive time in the United States.  Any kind of cultural stereotyping really turns me off because NCsoft isn't run by just any ol' average Korean citizens, it's run by people who have traveled extensively and lived in multicultural environments.  Plus, it also could be a critical error in assessing the nature of the individuals running NCsoft.

That's not to say that I don't agree that they've grossly misjudged the western market (which in some ways as an aggregate can be stereotyped since we're not talking about players on an individual basis here), but I don't want to pin the reason why on any Korean cultural aspect.  To be honest, it doesn't really matter much why they believe it because whatever the reason, it's highly unlikely to change.  I just think that making assumptions that it's because they're Korean and then using those assumptions to try to predict how they'll feel or act about something else is misleading and detrimental.

Well thank you, this one of the things I've been trying to get through to people.  NCSoft has obviously made mistakes, but average people, let alone idiots, do not run corporations. 

That is the biggest compliment I will ever give them, "not idiots".  But it kind of bothers me when people just insult them without realizing how they are probably a group of very talented and driven people. 

That said, I want the IP or I want them bankrupt.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2012, 11:39:13 PM »
Not idiots.

Sociopaths.

And before anyone protests, let me ask how someone could ignore the pleas of people in the Testimonials thread and not be a sociopath?
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TonyV

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2012, 11:44:26 PM »
Not idiots.

Sociopaths.

And before anyone protests, let me ask how someone could ignore the pleas of people in the Testimonials thread and not be a sociopath?

Come on now, I see no reason to disparage the reputation of honest, hard-working sociopaths...