Author Topic: 4 minutes past midnight  (Read 16067 times)

NecrotechMaster

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2012, 01:46:26 AM »


i think this is mostly correct except the part about how much inf was being held by characters, unless it was only counting what characters actually had on them instead of stored in emails or the market, cause i knew many poeple who had 4x that amount spread among their characters

Colette

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2012, 01:46:59 AM »
This is a vital discussion, and now that I've had a much-needed nap and am thinking more clearly, let's look things over.

"Any kind of cultural stereotyping really turns me off"

Fair enough, Tony. That argument has merit. We are working in a vacuum, though. NCSoft has said so little, and what they have said has been... all wrong. It sounds to me that Srmalloy knows what he's talking about. (For my part I do not. My brief time in Korea only let me know how very different the place is.) Perhaps it would be productive if he, and others here with real cultural experience, could come together and teach us all about what is true and not true about Korean culture, and what it reveals about Mr. Kim and the way he does business. Naturally, that thread would need to be especially heavily regulated. (I applaud the care y'all put into moderating these boards.)

"Not idiots. Sociopaths."

Love'ya V.V., and heaven knows I'm furious at NCSoft too. But having seriously ruminated over what Srmalloy wrote, I think I may have isolated something important.

I believe Mr. Kim and company, as producers of "grind" MMOs, see these programs as fungible cookie-cutter product, much as, say. many film producers see their movies as widgets and never actually read the scripts. Therefore, our reaction is completely incomprehensible to them.

We on the other hand, recognise CoH as a unique cultural artifact. I understand it is the only MMO that features costume contests where people create and exhibit their creations, and the only MMO where one may create and share their own stories. (Y'all feel free to correct me, I'm hardly an expert on MMOs.)

Do we, the players do that for a profit? No. We do those things for self expression. In a word: art. When CoH came out, perhaps it was mere commercial art at best. But after eight years of growth and accumulation, I believe it is -- culturally relevant and worthy of preservation.

Suppose that Mr. Kim purchased a Goya or a Van Gogh. (Probably could.) He owns it, he can secure it, exhibit it, charge money for it... but even he would almost certainly recoil at the thought of wantonly setting a Goya on fire! That would make him a barbarian, a vandal no better than those awful Taliban who dynamited those Buddhist statues in Afghanistan.

But if he doesn't recognise CoH as art, then indeed his actions would appear to us, as you put it, "sociopathic," without actually being so. You see? And he would fail to understand why he's suddenly being called a brutish, uncultured barbarian.

I'm not trying to defend NCSoft. God knows Srmalloy's description viscerally repels me (but then, so does kimchi.  ;)) But I would like to understand NCSoft. Perhaps then we could formulate a better, more effective approach.

Oh, Gangrel? I don't think I'm following your argument. My sympathies in advance, but what is this awful thing you're talking about?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 02:02:44 AM by Colette »

pikabko1000

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2012, 05:13:39 AM »
I was there for the last second. The very last second.well lets start with the 30 minutes warning the servers will be turned off. The chat line went nuts!
one went " NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and hell of a lot Good byes to each other
what I wanted to do is get a phone number of Paragon Studios and give them my regards of a great job on the creations and ask what can be done about NC SOFT and follow up on there rude your Fired pink slip. I realy wnated to talk to some one
ask fopr a off line mod ask about selling the rights to some one else. to hope to get back on in the near future
any one with phone number please let me know thanks

Ichaerus

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2012, 06:20:29 AM »
Beta server went down at 0018 on December 1st.  Yet another day that will live in infamy.  What the hell is it with bad stuff happening in December?  :'(

dwturducken

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2012, 06:27:16 AM »
We went out on Champion, in Atlas 3, having a drum party on Atlas' ass. At 11:15 PST, though, we were on Pinnacle, in our Arabian Knights SG characters. Three of us positioned ourselves among the vigil and then simultaneously self destructed.  One of us even shouted "For Allah!"  It got a laugh.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

TargetOne

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2012, 06:03:01 PM »
I took two days off from work just so I could be in the game Friday evening. Spent much of the afternoon taking screenshots of my most important characters, as well as running the Sentinel+ character extraction on them.

Throughout the evening, I fervently kept retrying after every mapserver/disconnect, especially the one that happened about ten minutes before the cutoff point.

I had my main character dancing with a few friends and a ton of other players in Pocket D on my VIP account, and a clone standing vigil in AP33 on my spare free account, when it all came to an end.

After the "you have been forcibly disconnected from the server" message, I just kind of sat there for long minutes, staring at the screen and feeling alternately sad and numb. I'm not ashamed to admit, I actually did cry.

Globetrotter

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2012, 06:12:46 PM »
I actually did cry.

And so did I. It was a few minutes past 9 in the morning. I had been up all night. When that final message came, I broke and cried hot tears  :-*
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srmalloy

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2012, 11:13:28 PM »
Keep in mind that several of the NCsoft executives have spent extensive time in the United States.  Any kind of cultural stereotyping really turns me off because NCsoft isn't run by just any ol' average Korean citizens, it's run by people who have traveled extensively and lived in multicultural environments.  Plus, it also could be a critical error in assessing the nature of the individuals running NCsoft.

That's not to say that I don't agree that they've grossly misjudged the western market (which in some ways as an aggregate can be stereotyped since we're not talking about players on an individual basis here), but I don't want to pin the reason why on any Korean cultural aspect.  To be honest, it doesn't really matter much why they believe it because whatever the reason, it's highly unlikely to change.  I just think that making assumptions that it's because they're Korean and then using those assumptions to try to predict how they'll feel or act about something else is misleading and detrimental.

The shuttering of Paragon Studios was done in a manner consistent with the way job terminations are routinely conducted in Korea. The announcement of the shutdown of Paragon Studios and the closure of the game was couched in carefully neutral terms while making it clear that this was a high-level decision that had already been made. Both of these actions fit very tightly to Korean cultural precepts, and by Korean standards, it was done with consideration both to the Paragon Studios staff and the CoH playerbase, and the reaction of someone raised in Korean culture would have been to accept that the decision had been made at a level above them, no matter how much they disagreed with it, and move on.

We're not Koreans, and we didn't react 'appropriately'. Firing someone out of the blue like that, particularly with no visible evidence that their job performance was substandard, is regarded as horrible management practice.  And when someone tries to tear something we love out of our hands with no visible justification, we fight back. These reactions are utterly foreign to Korean culture, where even _truth_ can take a back seat to preserving harmony.

NCSoft's second announcement, proclaiming that they'd 'exhausted all opportunities to sell the game', was another carefully-worded Korean-style pronouncement from on high; if we were to react appropriately by Korean standards, we would have accepted that NCSoft had, with all diligence, explored selling the game and had been unable to find a buyer, and once more would have moved on. To no one's surprise except, perhaps, theirs, we cried fewmets over this announcement and continued to denounce NCSoft management.

Albert Einstein once defined 'insanity' as doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. The initial shutdown announcement showed that NCSoft management is either so devoid of nunchi as to be unable to understand the differences between the Korean and Western markets and the customers therein, or they're so arrogant that they don't think they have to bother trying to understand the way we think. As a result, far from preserving kibun, they only aroused the CoH playerbase to action. And after our campaign to get them to reconsider, NCSoft came back and issued the same sort of culturally-myopic statement, proving that not only didn't  they understand the differences in the Western market and Western customers, they either couldn't or wouldn't learn from the initial failure of their approach to get the 'appropriate' results and tried the same thing again, and got the same reaction.

NCSoft wants to be a major player in the world online-games market. But as long as they hold on to the parochial attitudes they have exhibited, they're going to continue to come crashing up against the fact that the cultural norms they hold so dearly are not shared with the vast majority of their would-be customers. If they want to be competitive, they're going to have to learn to work in other cultures, not merely hand down decisions from on high and expect their customers to suck it up and accept them.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2012, 03:15:57 AM »
Absolutely true, @srmalloy.  The pure fact of the matter is that when OTHER international companies venture into a new country, they do their best to find out what NOT to do and what TO do to fit in, from Pizza Hut removing the cheese from its pizza in China to Toyota adapting their workforce practices in Georgia.

NCSoft has proven it does not deserve to be a world player.

As for me.  I broke down and cried so hard I had trouble breathing when the disconnect notice hit, and cried until my eyes couldn't squeeze out any more tears.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Fulcrum

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2012, 03:28:24 AM »
I'll admit it.  I shed a few tears as well until I decided on a course of action that really helped me find a little closure until PlanZ or an emulator for CoH comes to light:

I spent an entire day creating a rather large NCsoft logo in effigy.  I spent long hours getting it -just- right... a masterpiece of cardstock, of paint and wire.

And then I burned it in a fire.  Burned it in a fire so hot that even the wires I used to hold it in shape melted into little more than slag while I shouted obscenities at the pyre.

After the fire was cold and dead this morning, I lovingly gathered up what was left of the ashes...  made waste in them... and buried it all on the back side of my property.

All in all?  I feel much better today than I have since the closure notice.

NecrotechMaster

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2012, 07:07:28 AM »
I'll admit it.  I shed a few tears as well until I decided on a course of action that really helped me find a little closure until PlanZ or an emulator for CoH comes to light:

I spent an entire day creating a rather large NCsoft logo in effigy.  I spent long hours getting it -just- right... a masterpiece of cardstock, of paint and wire.

And then I burned it in a fire.  Burned it in a fire so hot that even the wires I used to hold it in shape melted into little more than slag while I shouted obscenities at the pyre.

After the fire was cold and dead this morning, I lovingly gathered up what was left of the ashes...  made waste in them... and buried it all on the back side of my property.

All in all?  I feel much better today than I have since the closure notice.

ill have to say, thats a pretty epic way to say "eff you ncsoft!" lol

Fulcrum

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2012, 07:17:55 AM »
ill have to say, thats a pretty epic way to say "eff you ncsoft!" lol

Elaborate?   Yes.

Satisfying?   Intensely.   

My only regret was not recording it for posterity.

Rejuvenatrix

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2012, 09:40:04 AM »

As for me.  I broke down and cried so hard I had trouble breathing when the disconnect notice hit, and cried until my eyes couldn't squeeze out any more tears.


*sends VV a big hug*  I know just how you feel...I cried too...

I took off from work on Friday, and spent the day doing demorecords and using the sentinel extractor on all my toons.  I was joined on Mumble voice chat with many of my Urban Renewal SG and chat channel friends, throughout the afternoon and evening, and long after we were forcibly ripped from the servers. Some of us were doing missions till right before the end, and some were visiting favorite spots. I finally got to see the Matrix Room.  I even finally, after almost 8 years, broke down and actually did my first little bit of role play in Pocket D, with one of my first toons, saying farewell (until we meet again) to one of her favorite duo partners.  I took another toon through the SG base, making a video of her walking tour, as she shared her thoughts about her SG mates and having to leave her "home".  Shortly before midnight, we all tried to join together in our base, however, being on Virtue, we kept getting d/c'd (this had happened several times throughout the night), and having to wait to get back on.  By the time 3am est hit, most of us had gotten back on, but mostly ended up on different servers, as Virtue was red, and we panicked, fleeing to the first available server where we had other toons. I managed to find the first toon I ever made on my own account (I started playing on my husband's account, which lasted about 2 weeks, before he bought me my own copy of the game). I had moved her there, because after I got her to 50, I decided to start over with a different secondary power.  I hopped an Ouro portal to AP, and found myself on the steps next to Mr. Davis, who's wife I had spent some time chatting with on Virtue, in AP 33. We were joined by several other people, just before the disconnect.  Rejuvenatrix went out of Paragon City as she had arrived, alone in AP, with no SG. It was so horribly sad. Even though we were all still on Mumble, it just didn't really console me at all.  I wanted that little bit of time in the base, to sit together and say our farewells. I didn't get the little bit of closure that would have made me feel not quite so horrible. Yes, I know it's just a game, and yes, I know my toons weren't real. But they had stories, in my head, and after 8 years, they wanted some closure. I couldn't even really speak on Mumble for a few minutes after the d/c, because I was crying. And even though the core group of people in our group have made plans to play other games together (one person is even going to run a rp group using the Marvel cards system, but based on CoH characters), for me, it will never be the same. CoH was a better game than all the others, and losing it is like losing a friend.

*sends some hugs to everyone*

srmalloy

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2012, 05:26:32 PM »
Elaborate?   Yes.

Satisfying?   Intensely.   

My only regret was not recording it for posterity.

And, unfortunately, there are laws in place that would have made it impractical to ship to NCSoft as a final expression of your reaction to their shuttering City of Heroes...

Fulcrum

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2012, 05:43:36 PM »
And, unfortunately, there are laws in place that would have made it impractical to ship to NCSoft as a final expression of your reaction to their shuttering City of Heroes...

Impractical and downright illegal in most states, yes.

However.  The thought did cross my mind. ;)

Colette

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2012, 02:01:57 AM »
Srmalloy, you have earned my full attention. What is your background in the study of Korea?

Do we have any others where with a relevant background who can offer their opinions?

srmalloy

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2012, 02:38:31 AM »
Srmalloy, you have earned my full attention. What is your background in the study of Korea?

No formal background at all, just an amateur military history buff. But you can't understand the history of a region without understanding the cultures to know why decisions were made the way they did.

JWBullfrog

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Re: 4 minutes past midnight
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2012, 02:57:14 AM »
We made it to 5 minutes past on Protector.
 
I don't know who did it but, just before the hour, sombody popped a temporary snowstorm power. It seemed just so appropriate that, as the world was ending, snow started to fall.
 
Tears, sorrow, knowing that all of those beautiful maniacs standing around me would soon be gone. Heh, I'm starting to tear up now thinking about it. And then, as the disconnect message hit and that hateful little white box popped up on my screen, I looked down at the chat window for the last time and saw the final message out of Protector Server...
 
"NCSoft can't even shut down a game properly."
 
Love you, Protector. I'll be back again as soon as I can.
 
 
As long as somebody keeps making up stories for it, the City isn't gone.