And now, a brief word from the Titan Network...

[Electric-Knight]

I'm saying this entirely without any of my focus on any particular/specific case or poster (as I just find the subject interesting... actually... peculiar):

I've never once imagined that deletion of an account in a message board/discussion forum should result in the removal of all that account's contributions.
That notion is just... extremely weird to me.

I have nothing worth saying about the specific case others were talking about.

I do, however, believe that recognizing, admitting, communicating-about (and not simply forgetting and dismissing) repeated social infractions is the route towards social harmony, However, for that to be true and successful, everyone doing as such must be as respectful as possible... So, that's not for everyone.

This is just a general statement and not about any specific users/drama:

The wolf that repeatedly fouls the watering hole gets growled, barked and/or nipped at... If his approach isn't changed to be more respectful of the pack, the pack's reactions will get more serious.
This is the natural way of learning, adapting and/or sorting social things out.

You certainly don't want conformists and bullies running the show, but... Anyone claiming that people here are zealously adhering to a single way... would be hilarious.

[Electric-Knight]

Web Forums without drama are like gardens without flowers, cacti without spines or smartphones without apps. 

And like a city without sewage system!

[Minotaur]

There really is a need for this kind of posting. He didn't merely have "a different way of expressing himself." His attitude, behavior, and persistence was destructive on the main forums. You either weren't reading, or you have a very unique sense of tolerance. But I won't stand for it, and apparently I'm not alone here. He questioned the legitimacy of everything we tried, and his attempts were often squarely aimed at deflating those who wanted to save the game and community. I have no idea what his agenda was or what fueled it, but his pursuit was dogged. He may have doubled his post count in the final three months. The time to pick your comrades to pieces is not in the thick of the fight.

I didn't leave my forums and come here to these forums until after midnight when NCSoft shut them down, though I did lurk here. He walked the line here, most likely for the sake of self-preservation. I saw what I saw over there and I know I'm not the only one.

I don't know what you saw over there, but as far as I could tell, Gangrel posted nothing that wasn't fair comment or questions that were fair enough to ask unlike some of the real unicorns over there for whom Titan could do nothing right and were a bunch of swindlers and degenerates apparently.

On these forums, his posts were pretty constructive, although stuff clearly blew up that I didn't see. Live and let live, while GG incites strong emotions, some of the abuse she's taken here has gone well beyond the pale particularly from one poster who clearly hated her from the main boards and brought it with him. Gangrel also is pretty up front and (like me) can rub people up the wrong way, but I can't imagine what was done to him to incite this behaviour.

[FatherXmas]

I didn't see any negativity from Gangrel either.  So I don't know what was said here that made matters blow up so bad but back on the old forums there were times that remind me of movies where the unruly mob decides to form a posse to deliver some "old west justice" and Gangrel was the sheriff trying to preach calm and have members of the mob turn on him.

[Enson Red Shirt]

this thread should just be locked no reason to keep it going lets continue to focus on saving cox and destroying ncsoft

loved the story in the korean times i would be posting more here but it takes time and effort to plan a day of trading to make a company lose money and trigger alarms on automated HFT systems everyone keep your heads high keep up the good work lets save our city!

[eabrace]

As posted earlier, did you see his posts on the main COH forums?

I can't speak for anyone else, but the main CoH forums were blocked at work for me a few years ago, so I hadn't been a "forum regular" over there (outside of my server's boards just to keep up to date on who was running what for badges) for quite some time.

Edit: And really, even if I am familiar with someone's posting history on some other forums, I'm willing to give them a clean slate here if they're willing to try to get along.

[Captain Electric]

I'm not sure about this.

I see people agreeing with my interpretation of his activity on the main forums, and I see some people disagreeing with me, people who I believe to be pretty honest. So, here's my chance to either indulge in some self-doubt and think back on things--and whether I may have misinterpreted Gangrel's motives--or behave like an idiot and blindly stick to my grievance.

Kallandra said something about reading things differently from where she sits. And apparently she knows Gangrel intimately, according to a post above.

If I'm wrong, then I've got a lot to apologize for.

I've got some things to take care of away from the computer. If this thread is still open later, I'll post. But I need to think back on how some of those "discussions" went on the main forums.

[Electric-Knight]

I'll just say this about posters playing devil's advocate and/or persistantly being an opposing voice...
Sometimes people aggrandize themselves as some sort of balancing factor.

I take things post for post and try not to swell larger than that.
I have absolutely seen some people believe their own hype in thinking that they are serving the greater good by behaving in certain ways that may be causing arguments/debates and such.

I'm all for discussion and disagreement! However, I find it is occasionally manufactured and, when so, it lessens the authenticity of "balance".

[eabrace]

posters playing devil's advocate and/or persistantly being an opposing voice...

As with so many things in life, there are right ways and wrong ways to go about playing devil's advocate.  The right way is to just make sure that an opposing viewpoint has been given a voice and taken into consideration before proceeding.  If an individual chooses to adopt that opposing view as their own view and fight to the death for it, they are no longer playing devil's advocate.

(This message brought to you by someone who gets paid to play devil's advocate.)

[Starsman]

I'm not sure about this.

I see people agreeing with my interpretation of his activity on the main forums, and I see some people disagreeing with me, people who I believe to be pretty honest. So, here's my chance to either indulge in some self-doubt and think back on things--and whether I may have misinterpreted Gangrel's motives--or behave like an idiot and blindly stick to my grievance.

Kallandra said something about reading things differently from where she sits. And apparently she knows Gangrel intimately, according to a post above.

If I'm wrong, then I've got a lot to apologize for.

I've got some things to take care of away from the computer. If this thread is still open later, I'll post. But I need to think back on how some of those "discussions" went on the main forums.

Just for the record: as i said earlier, I remember the thread, but I don't remember the exact poster. MAYBE it was "I Burnt The Toast" that started that thread. He was in hypermode troll during the last 3 months of the game, along with Evil_Legacy and Another_Fan (who actually managed to get himself banned!)

[corvus1970]

I'll just say this about posters playing devil's advocate and/or persistantly being an opposing voice...
Sometimes people aggrandize themselves as some sort of balancing factor.

I take things post for post and try not to swell larger than that.
I have absolutely seen some people believe their own hype in thinking that they are serving the greater good by behaving in certain ways that may be causing arguments/debates and such.

I'm all for discussion and disagreement! However, I find it is occasionally manufactured and, when so, it lessens the authenticity of "balance".

As someone who has been on the internet for over two decades, and someone who has participated in many online forums since the days when Usenet was the only game in town, I have to state that I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.

Sometimes people who claim to play "Devil's Advocate" do so less out of a sense of fairness, than a need to be contrary in general, and a center for bad attention. As Alfred said in "The Dark Knight", "some men just want to watch the world burn", and its as true online as it is in real life. Even moreso I would say. Some unicorn in simple ways, others are more complex in their approach, but in the end its very much the same thing: sow the seeds of chaos and then enjoy what unfolds.

Now I have no idea about Gangrel's behavior over on the official forums, because I had long since grown tired of some of the posters over there, and had not followed them for years. So I don't know if what I describe is applicable to this person at all.

What I would say is this: we're ALL entitled to a bad day now and again. Was what happened a bad day in action, or a pattern that oft repeats itself? Think upon that a bit before passing judgement.

Just for the record: as i said earlier, I remember the thread, but I don't remember the exact poster. MAYBE it was "I Burnt The Toast" that started that thread. He was in hypermode unicorn during the last 3 months of the game, along with Evil_Legacy and Another_Fan (who actually managed to get himself banned!)

I did lurk on the main forums in the weeks before shutdown, and those usernames eventually filled me with weary disgust on a regular basis, and in short-order.

[Electric-Knight]

Absolutely, earbrace.
And, indeed, there's a big difference between having your own point of view/contention than doing so just to provide a contrarian voice.
It's funny... Many on the forums may see me as an agreeing, positive go-along...
But I have lived a life of being quite a natural contrarian to most everyone and everything around me.

I suppose that is another aspect that is offensive from those believing that they're providing some needed counter balance - it is assuming that others are unbalanced with their own views (just because there's a large amount of agreement).

Since Gangriel has been mentioned, I'll just say that I don't have anything personal against him and we'd shared some jokes and friendly exchanges.
I did see a bit of a constant contrarian from him, but he generally did it reasonably so... No one is perfect, of course. I found him to be a bit too eager to offer that voice at times when it *seemed* forced, to me... But he may have been genuine.


(EDIT- hastily tapped that out on my mobile and just fixed a few typos now)

[Minotaur]

I must admit, I consider playing devil's advocate can be a very useful tool in making people look at problems to which they are too close to see as problems in IT projects. I was paid to ask awkward questions as a problem solver in the IT industry, and have done so several times here. The key is to get people to realise that's what you're doing and that you're doing it not out of negativity, but to get them to take a step back and think. 

[corvus1970]

Exactly. and when its done correctly, that can happen.

Unfortunately, in the online world, its often an excuse for asshattery.

[Turjan]

I'm going back to lurking. You'll just start on me next for sticking up for someone I admired, who spoke their mind and had quite a lot of interesting points to ponder.

I'm afraid I can't agree with you about the lurking thing - your voice is one that should be heard!

The thing I've found most interesting about Gangrel's posts is his obvious desire for factual accuracy. If he believed something to be factually inaccurate he'd go out of his way to research the subject in his quest for the facts, and he posted what he found - even if it meant contradicting an original stance he may have had.

On top of that, if he saw that an inaccuracy was being continually repeated, he seemed to feel it was his duty to correct that inaccuracy - even if that meant potentially alienating people.

Ordinarily, these two traits might be considered as admirable ones I'd say - but the situation in which we currently find ourselves is, alas, anything but 'ordinary'...

NCsoft have treated us all horrendously. They've lied to us, they've stonewalled us, they've taken our heartfelt pleas and thrown them in the rubbish bin - along with the game and community we've held dear for nearly a decade. We're all hurting, we're all trying to deal with this in whatever way we can, and a lot of emotions are running high.

In short, it is a topsy turvy time when even the ordinary can seem aberrant. If Gangrel was guilty of anything, I believe it was trying too hard to be the voice of reason at a time when for most of us, reason was taking an understandable backseat to our very justifiable rage at NCsoft.

But no storm can last forever. And when the squalls have passed I have faith that our community will be back on an even keel once more.

The most important thing now is to remember that the crisis we've all just had to live through, and the moods a lot of us have been feeling, are likely not the norm for any of us. Each of us has to find our own balancing point - it may the old one we had before, it may be a new one, but either way it's ours to find. No-one else can pick it for us.

[Sekoia]

I wanted to add a few notes to the thread, since I'm also involved in the process.

The Titan Network's forums have experienced a ton of growth over the last several months. Prior to the closure announcement, our forums were pretty quiet. Now they're positively thriving with activity. So we're going through growing pains. We're having to deal with issues we haven't had to deal with before. And we're still trying to figure out how to do that.

I have no doubt that our handling of everything falls short of perfect. However, our team is trying their hardest.

It may sometimes also seem like our team isn't always fully in sync with one another, especially when things like this come up. Our admin and moderator staff live busy lives. When an issue comes up, we often feel like need to address it fairly quckly, and we often don't have time to talk over all the details with everyone else on the staff or review all the many other posts on the forums first. For example, when I made this post, I didn't know that this post existed. I was trying to address some of the pressing concerns so that I could attend to my real-world responsibilities for the morning. So please bear with us and be a bit forgiving. Hopefully this kind of this will become less common as we continue to grow into our new role as the community's main forums.

I want to point out that this post isn't fully in response to cmgangrel. We've had a few other people who have replied to us with variants of "well you never told me I couldn't do that!", so between that and this incident, I wanted to get something out there to give people at least some sort of expectations for what we expect. I agree 100% with TonyV, we don't want to go down the path of rules lawyering. However, I am going to see about providing something that at least covers the basics of what we expect.

[FatherXmas]

Exactly. and when its done correctly, that can happen.

Unfortunately, in the online world, its often an excuse for asshattery.

In the real world, facial expression, body language and tone of voice can project a sense that the speaker isn't coming from a place of "asshattery" but of genuine concern that the group is too hyperfocused on their cause/solution/blame.

In black and write it can be difficult for some, including me, to project the same tone that I can in person versus a cold e-mail or forum post.

On the flip side it's easy for people to overreact to same e-mail or forum post, reading into it all the negativity that the reader perceives, especially when it's questioning core beliefs that the reader embraced as a reaction to a situation, in our case the sudden closing of the game with only the lamest of corporate speak to explain why.

[corvus1970]

Believe me, I understand that.

As stated: some people cause trouble for its own sake. Sometimes the only way to really tell if that's the case online is to look at a particular poster's history.

[Electric-Knight]

In the real world, facial expression, body language and tone of voice can project a sense that the speaker isn't coming from a place of "asshattery" but of genuine concern that the group is too hyperfocused on their cause/solution/blame.

In black and write it can be difficult for some, including me, to project the same tone that I can in person versus a cold e-mail or forum post.

On the flip side it's easy for people to overreact to same e-mail or forum post, reading into it all the negativity that the reader perceives, especially when it's questioning core beliefs that the reader embraced as a reaction to a situation, in our case the sudden closing of the game with only the lamest of corporate speak to explain why.

Absolutely. And well stated.


Also, I meant to say towards Tony, Sekoia and team...
All before the shutdown, I'd been wondering and hoping that the impending population explosion here wouldn't cause too many gray hairs and loss of (whatever remnants exist) of your collective minds. 

Seriously, I greatly respect the enormous task at hand (for the record, I've been a moderator and community team member of a small forum community in the distant past) and I appreciate, greatly, what we have been afforded here, how well (I believe) you all have been doing with it and how important it is for all users to recognize and respect the fact that this is not a paying job, these are not the official forums and that each and every contribution/demand we put into this thing is a burden of responsibility for all of us, because we're just people with other greater realities trying to make a cohesive, fun, happy thing go round these parts.

Thank you and I shall do my best to be respectful, patient and helpful.

*smashes his own soap box, tips his hat and heads out the door for now*

[johnrobey]

I can't speak for anyone else, but the main CoH forums were blocked at work for me a few years ago, so I hadn't been a "forum regular" over there (outside of my server's boards just to keep up to date on who was running what for badges) for quite some time.

Edit: And really, even if I am familiar with someone's posting history on some other forums, I'm willing to give them a clean slate here if they're willing to try to get along.

  emphasis added

Clean slate in the community is how I think we should go.  We've many if not all been in the trenches together, figuratively speaking.  We've all been thru enough lately.