Charge abilities and attack chains

[Ezuka]

I played Champions on release, and I never really got into it, but I'm going to give it another go. What I'm wondering is how attacks that can charge affect attack chains. At higher levels, how are attack chains different than in CoH because of this? 

[Pep Rally]

There are actually a ton of attacks with no cooldown whatsoever, so it is very possible to have an attack chain of one power whether you TAP, or CHARGE the power.

It's even possible to reduce the usage of your ENERGY BUILDER to almost nothing as well if you slot up END, REC, INT(and/or use Cost reduction gear)and use an ENERGY UNLOCK that synergizes with the attacks you have chosen.

Pep has DEFIANCE for a passive defense which gives me Energy whenever I get hit, as well as my ENRAGE toggle giving me energy whenever I knock an enemy. It's possible for me to spam UPPERCUT indefinitely, but I usually throw in a DEMOLISH to reduce the targets resistance. I can only do maybe 2 DEMOLISHES in a row because of it's high energy cost, and no knock to fuel ENRAGE.

The best attack chains should strive to eliminate the use of your ENERGY BUILDER attack as much as possible because other attacks have better DPS.
Once you get your bread and butter single target, and AoE attacks, you can get other attacks that have a secondary effect that you find useful like knockups, holds, debuffs, heals, etc.

[Ezuka]

There are actually a ton of attacks with no cooldown whatsoever, so it is very possible to have an attack chain of one power whether you TAP, or CHARGE the power.

It's even possible to reduce the usage of your ENERGY BUILDER to almost nothing as well if you slot up END, REC, INT(and/or use Cost reduction gear)and use an ENERGY UNLOCK that synergizes with the attacks you have chosen.

Pep has DEFIANCE for a passive defense which gives me Energy whenever I get hit, as well as my ENRAGE toggle giving me energy whenever I knock an enemy. It's possible for me to spam UPPERCUT indefinitely, but I usually throw in a DEMOLISH to reduce the targets resistance. I can only do maybe 2 DEMOLISHES in a row because of it's high energy cost, and no knock to fuel ENRAGE.

The best attack chains should strive to eliminate the use of your ENERGY BUILDER attack as much as possible because other attacks have better DPS.
Once you get your bread and butter single target, and AoE attacks, you can get other attacks that have a secondary effect that you find useful like knockups, holds, debuffs, heals, etc.

So because of the lack of cooldowns, filler attacks aren't as necessary. Doesn't that make combat feel a little stale? Spamming the same attack over and over, I mean. I know using the same attack chain over and over isn't  much different than spamming just one attack, but I feel more like my combat is dynamic when I'm using a chain of five or six attacks instead of switching between a single target dps attack and an AOE attack.

[eabrace]

So because of the lack of cooldowns, filler attacks aren't as necessary. Doesn't that make combat feel a little stale?

So far, it sort of feels to me like playing a fighting game without super secret combo attacks.

[Kistulot]

So far, it sort of feels to me like playing a fighting game without super secret combo attacks.

This is a lot like how it feels to me, too.

It has its advantages, and disadvantages. If your team is buzzsawing, honestly anything but tap powers feel really, really bad. At least from my experiences. If I'm doing a lot of maintains and everything dies before it gets below 75% (and I have the energy unlock that works when they get below 50... sigh...) I just feel like I'm not contributing much. The plus side is that I feel like I'm always able to use AOE or single target whenever I want. The con is that combat grows very repetitive very quickly.

There's also almost NO varied content below the canada/desert choices, which means a lot of the same stuff over and over and over again if you're trying out various styles: ie support, Ranged/melee/combo DPS...

It can be fun, but its fun in a very different way than CoH felt to me. The fun is more in the pace and the more reactive nature of the game: ie knockback feels more fun, moving around in combat is more viable on more characters, things like that.

[Ezuka]

This is a lot like how it feels to me, too.

It has its advantages, and disadvantages. If your team is buzzsawing, honestly anything but tap powers feel really, really bad. At least from my experiences. If I'm doing a lot of maintains and everything dies before it gets below 75% (and I have the energy unlock that works when they get below 50... sigh...) I just feel like I'm not contributing much. The plus side is that I feel like I'm always able to use AOE or single target whenever I want. The con is that combat grows very repetitive very quickly.

There's also almost NO varied content below the canada/desert choices, which means a lot of the same stuff over and over and over again if you're trying out various styles: ie support, Ranged/melee/combo DPS...

It can be fun, but its fun in a very different way than CoH felt to me. The fun is more in the pace and the more reactive nature of the game: ie knockback feels more fun, moving around in combat is more viable on more characters, things like that.

I agree, it can be fun, but the fact that the game was built with consoles in mind really shows. I'm not hating the game, but I don't feel a real sense of progression, and I don't feel like there's much of a point in varying anything I do. I just spam the same two attacks. I'm also only level 14, so there's that too.

I was thinking about going gold to get free form so I can recreate my characters, but is there really much of a point in heals and debuffs? Do support roles really feel like support roles, or are the essentially DPS with a few buffs thrown in?

[Kistulot]

Heals are VERY useful. Especially since tanking in this game is...

Gaining aggro off of someone else is an uphill battle. If you lose aggro for a second its likely your healers are dead. Good news! The best healers can also heal themselves very nicely!

As for buffs and debuffs, I don't know about how important they are - but I know they don't hurt. Control seems to be the least useful thing in CO, lasting too short and being overall unimpressive. Heck, faux-MMs seem to do better with their pets.

I'm around the same level and honestly feeling much the same. If I weren't following my SG for sweet RP drops I wouldn't be in CO.

[faith.grins]

Control in any game that is not City of Heroes is going to feel massively nerfed compared to CoH.  CoH was the only game I've ever encountered that let you stun lock a single enemy forever from level 1, let alone two or three.  That's a topic with enough depth I could write an entire novel on it, but the bottom line is that if you liked playing Controllers or Dominators, you will not find much refuge out there in the cold, harsh world.

Buffs are more rare in CO than they were in CoH, but they're good when they're around.  Debuffs are more common, and range from game-changing to I-didn't-even-notice-they-were-disoriented.  A good debuff character in CO is like a good Corrupter in CoH:  insanely valuable to have around, but you might not notice how much they were doing until they leave.

I haven't gotten the hang of tanking or Healing in CO, yet, but my Tank is only level 12, and the only Heal I have any experience with is on a Grimoire, so it's just the one Heal, and that's not her primary job.  So far, the impression I get is that Tanks are squishier here, and it's harder to hold aggro, but they deal more damage.  Heals... I really don't know.  I'll get back to you on that.

As far as spamming the same two powers... yes, part of that is that you're still just level 14.  I mean, you've only got four click powers, yeah?  One slotted passive, one Form, your energy builder, and then three actual attacks.  That varies greatly from Archetype to Archetype, though:  the Grimoire gets a summoned damage patch and a PBAoE with knock by level 14, neither of which radically changes how you fight things, either in a group or out.  Whereas the Behemoth gets a leap attack and a Hand Clap, both of which are huge QoL improvements for a melee character, especially a tank.  At the end of the day, yes, CoH's power system made for more dynamic combat, but also keep in mind what it was like firing the same two or three powers over and over again at level 10 - you had a lot of dead space in combat when things were recharging.  CO doesn't have dead space, just time where your blasts get weaker for a bit.

[emu265]

So.  I find myself spamming my energy builder and a single attack (Fireball).  Sometimes I use Hurricane.  Is this normal?

[Kaiser Tarantula]

So.  I find myself spamming my energy builder and a single attack (Fireball).  Sometimes I use Hurricane.  Is this normal?

On my Glacier AT character, Dr. Rimesteel, I find myself basically using 3 attacks.  My energy builder, Snowstorm on groups of minions, then full-charged Ice Blasts on whatever's left.  Sometimes, I bite the bullet and just blast a group of enemies down with Ice Blast alone, in order to build stacks of Concentration.

Usually, Blocking to gain energy and allowing my various 'gain energy when hit' abilities lets me pummel enemies more-or-less relentlessly; when it doesn't, a couple of shots of my Energy Builder is sufficient to let me start firing off Ice Blasts again.  My Ice Blast is strong enough to just about one-shot a Henchman if it's fully-charged, so a couple EB shots afterwards not only finishes the guy off, but also gives me enough energy for the next victim.

So yeah, it's pretty normal.  "Attack chains" as CoH defines them don't really exist in CO - instead, you basically use whatever power lends itself best to your situation.

[emu265]

On my Glacier AT character, Dr. Rimesteel, I find myself basically using 3 attacks.  My energy builder, Snowstorm on groups of minions, then full-charged Ice Blasts on whatever's left.  Sometimes, I bite the bullet and just blast a group of enemies down with Ice Blast alone, in order to build stacks of Concentration.

Usually, Blocking to gain energy and allowing my various 'gain energy when hit' abilities lets me pummel enemies more-or-less relentlessly; when it doesn't, a couple of shots of my Energy Builder is sufficient to let me start firing off Ice Blasts again.  My Ice Blast is strong enough to just about one-shot a Henchman if it's fully-charged, so a couple EB shots afterwards not only finishes the guy off, but also gives me enough energy for the next victim.

So yeah, it's pretty normal.  "Attack chains" as CoH defines them don't really exist in CO - instead, you basically use whatever power lends itself best to your situation.

Ice Blast is an awesome power, before I got Fireball that was my go-to.  Hmmmm... I am finding myself wishing there was just a little more strategy involved.

[thunderforce]

Control in any game that is not City of Heroes is going to feel massively nerfed compared to CoH.  CoH was the only game I've ever encountered that let you stun lock a single enemy forever from level 1, let alone two or three.

And let's not forget that control in City of X got a massive (and, in my view, entirely justified) nerf around the time of the ED drama - it used to be even better.

At the end of the day, yes, CoH's power system made for more dynamic combat, but also keep in mind what it was like firing the same two or three powers over and over again at level 10 - you had a lot of dead space in combat when things were recharging.

Well, the two basic attacks tended to cycle pretty quickly, but I didn't really think of that as dead space on an attack-oriented character (it could seem like a long time on a Controller or Defender) - more an opportunity to stay abreast of the tactical situation. I think there's a happy medium there - with CO's pure attack spam I feel permanently scrapperlocked against every opponent.

To be fair, let's not forget that in the days before inherent Stamina and cheap jetpacks you'd be using those same two or three powers at level 21. But on the other hand even in that world you got six power picks before going into the pools - that ought to mean three or four attacks on an attacking character, and I found the tempo of CoX adequate there.

[Ezuka]

Heals are VERY useful. Especially since tanking in this game is...

Gaining aggro off of someone else is an uphill battle. If you lose aggro for a second its likely your healers are dead. Good news! The best healers can also heal themselves very nicely!

As for buffs and debuffs, I don't know about how important they are - but I know they don't hurt. Control seems to be the least useful thing in CO, lasting too short and being overall unimpressive. Heck, faux-MMs seem to do better with their pets.

I'm around the same level and honestly feeling much the same. If I weren't following my SG for sweet RP drops I wouldn't be in CO.

I really need to find an RP group I suppose. That'll make everything better.

[faith.grins]

Well, the two basic attacks tended to cycle pretty quickly, but I didn't really think of that as dead space on an attack-oriented character (it could seem like a long time on a Controller or Defender) - more an opportunity to stay abreast of the tactical situation. I think there's a happy medium there - with CO's pure attack spam I feel permanently scrapperlocked against every opponent.

To be fair, let's not forget that in the days before inherent Stamina and cheap jetpacks you'd be using those same two or three powers at level 21. But on the other hand even in that world you got six power picks before going into the pools - that ought to mean three or four attacks on an attacking character, and I found the tempo of CoX adequate there.

For Defenders, Controllers, Tankers, and to a lesser extent HEATs and VEATs, even after Inherent Fitness and the travel pools revamp you were bloody unlikely to have an attack chain with less than 33% dead space in it before level 22.  Part of that is how powers were level gated and part of it is that Tankers and Defenders, due to team roles, are not encouraged to go for damage early.  Either way, DOs or equivalent IOs were just not quite good enough to make three, maybe four attack powers have little downtime.  For Blasters and Dominators, who have two whole powersets of attacks and other nifty click powers, that stuff stopped after level 8.  For Brutes, Scrappers, and Corruptors it's a question of how much do you want to be the Aggro Monkey and how much do you want to be the Pseudo-Tank or the Buffbot?  A /Dark, /Cold, or /Time Corruptor had enough really cool powers in their secondary to take by level 20 that I can totally see them getting by on two attacks until 22.  Stalkers had strangely-paced primaries and until the very last round of Stalker changes earlier this year could not cobble together an attack chain until level 26 just by virtue of how many attacks they were allowed to take.

33% dead air during any given fight is a lot.  If your game is well-designed, like City of Heroes, then it won't all happen at once so it won't feel like a lot, which was a great strength of the game.  But it's still there.

All that being said, I leveled a Paladin in World of Warcraft waaaay back when their only "click power" before level 11 was Judgement, which had a 10 second cooldown.  If you didn't go Ret, you were stuck auto-attacking things to death for like the first 20 levels of your life.  That sucked.  Nothing in CoH or CO will ever equal the mind-numbing chore of leveling a Prot Pally in vanilla WoW.

[Ezuka]

For Defenders, Controllers, Tankers, and to a lesser extent HEATs and VEATs, even after Inherent Fitness and the travel pools revamp you were bloody unlikely to have an attack chain with less than 33% dead space in it before level 22.  Part of that is how powers were level gated and part of it is that Tankers and Defenders, due to team roles, are not encouraged to go for damage early.  Either way, DOs or equivalent IOs were just not quite good enough to make three, maybe four attack powers have little downtime.  For Blasters and Dominators, who have two whole powersets of attacks and other nifty click powers, that stuff stopped after level 8.  For Brutes, Scrappers, and Corruptors it's a question of how much do you want to be the Aggro Monkey and how much do you want to be the Pseudo-Tank or the Buffbot?  A /Dark, /Cold, or /Time Corruptor had enough really cool powers in their secondary to take by level 20 that I can totally see them getting by on two attacks until 22.  Stalkers had strangely-paced primaries and until the very last round of Stalker changes earlier this year could not cobble together an attack chain until level 26 just by virtue of how many attacks they were allowed to take.

33% dead air during any given fight is a lot.  If your game is well-designed, like City of Heroes, then it won't all happen at once so it won't feel like a lot, which was a great strength of the game.  But it's still there.

All that being said, I leveled a Paladin in World of Warcraft waaaay back when their only "click power" before level 11 was Judgement, which had a 10 second cooldown.  If you didn't go Ret, you were stuck auto-attacking things to death for like the first 20 levels of your life.  That sucked.  Nothing in CoH or CO will ever equal the mind-numbing chore of leveling a Prot Pally in vanilla WoW.

My main toon was a Dark/Dark corruptor, and I'm missing her something fierce. Dropping tar patch, fearsome stare, and tenebrous  tentacles on top of the -acc debuff made me fall in love with the setup. She was my very first toon, and while I only started at around issue 11, I remember the down time between attacks, but I don't remember them negatively. I was just happy playing a character that looked the way I wanted.

[thunderforce]

Part of that is how powers were level gated and part of it is that Tankers and Defenders, due to team roles, are not encouraged to go for damage early.

Hang on - dual builds fixed that. Although I do appreciate how CO fixes that with Roles.

tenebrous tentacles

Apropos of nothing else, was it just EU players that called that "hentai blast"?

[Ezuka]

Apropos of nothing else, was it just EU players that called that "hentai blast"?

I've never heard of it referred to as hentai blast, but I definitely made and heard references to hentai when using that attack. 

[Kistulot]

Hang on - dual builds fixed that. Although I do appreciate how CO fixes that with Roles.

Ya know, I wish I woulda thought of that...

[Aggelakis]

Hang on - dual builds fixed that. Although I do appreciate how CO fixes that with Roles.

Apropos of nothing else, was it just EU players that called that "hentai blast"?

Those of us on this side of the pond tended to call it hentaicles most often, that I can tell.

[thunderforce]

Ya know, I wish I woulda thought of that...

Huh. I thought that was what everyone who didn't PVP did. If you saw me on a Tauntless tanker... that was her second build.

[Kistulot]

Huh. I thought that was what everyone who didn't PVP did. If you saw me on a Tauntless tanker... that was her second build.

It makes perfect sense in retrospect, but it just never occured to me.

I only ever had one character that similar would have applied on anyway, and while she was a Brute Tank (ever proof of the power of elec armor used properly, and of how a brute can out tank a tanker if they're played well!) her initial build was... I hadn't really learned how to make my own builds yet and had a friend who loved making them for everyone, and they were in a phase of "who needs taunt? gain aggro like a fire blaster does!" which works really well when you're Elec Melee.

Still, if we ever get it back, I'll definitely use this trick!

[JaguarX]

In CO I noticed a couple of play styles. You had some that spam enegery builder and the second attack and then you had some thta used variety of attacks. I kind of like having that choice available. If a person choose to spam a single or two attacks, then they have that ability just as much to use variety of attacks.

I dont miss the recharge aspect of COX at all. The dead space in comabt in COX didnt bother me at all until I played CO and just couldnt go back to the now seemingly slow combat system there or rather the combat system that was there.

I think CO gives more to actual personal choice in power useage choices without the recharge.

me personally i use most of my powers that are available. The least used ones are usually the heals because usually I'm solo and usually I build for suvival without them and having a heal mostly for those unusual cases when the fit hits the shan. But others seem content on spamming only one or two attacks and that is another option and tactic that is available.

[Seschat]

Backpedalling a little here, has anyone struck upon anything that could be labeled an adequate control power, just to help those in the game not as comfortable with the "smash smash smash KillItNowKillItNowKillItNOW OrWe'reAllGonnaDIE" approach that CO seems to engender?  So far I've found:

Celestial's Vengeance (aka Holy Orbital Death Ray), with the Redemption Denied advantage.  Two second charge to hold the target and stun all his friends.
Darkness's Grasping Shadows (aka Not-So-Tenebrious-Tentacles).  Again a two second charge, but with an AOE hold.
Anything with consistent Knock-Up/Down/Back.  Foes on their backsides aren't hurting you.  For some reason, Knock-Toward doesn't seem to make enemies fall over as much.  *grumble*

Seriously, a two second charge on a 10-15 second hold makes such a power pretty marginal, IMHO.  And I'd maim for an AOE Root power, just to get minions to stop scampering around.

[Tenzhi]

There's an uppercut in Might that's a pretty reliable knockup.  And I've been having luck with... Condemn? from the Infernal set - it seems to hold an enemy pretty good and with the advantage it does an AoE stun that seems fairly useful.  But nothing on par with controls in CoH.

[Mister Bison]

Apropos of nothing else, was it just EU players that called that "hentai blast"?

I don't know but, from my end, I did nothing to prove the contrary

[General Idiot]

There's an uppercut in Might that's a pretty reliable knockup.  And I've been having luck with... Condemn? from the Infernal set - it seems to hold an enemy pretty good and with the advantage it does an AoE stun that seems fairly useful.  But nothing on par with controls in CoH.

Fun fact: Condemn and Vengeance were once the same power. Before the celestial set was added to the game, the supernatural set (Just supernatural, it wasn't split into bestial and infernal until later) had a power called condemn that changed depending on which of three Aspect toggles you had running. With Aspect of the Infernal, it was the Condemn we have now. With Aspect of the Celestial, it was what we now know as Vengeance.

Was kind of amusing for a while after Celestial came out, their best (only) aoe was in another framework entirely. Which was probably why it got moved when they split the supernatural sets up.

Anyway, random trivia over.

[Lily Barclay]

Pounce pretty reliably knocks single targets down. Not all Master Villians, but some.