Author Topic: 2nd Man of Steel Trailer is up  (Read 5913 times)

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: 2nd Man of Steel Trailer is up
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2012, 12:13:00 AM »
I don't think we're really disagreeing on much, aside from Superman Returns. Falling back on the Kryptonite plot may have been a poor move, but it was brutal. I found Superman's brief bout with mortality very painfully emotional to watch, even though I figured he'd get out of it. Also, challenging him on the superhuman level, I don't know what they'd do that hasn't been done in the films already, without going completely Michael Bay about it (Superman vs. blatant ripoff of Unicron, or something).

And about emotional Superman plots, my point isn't that it can't be written. It's just very hard to write well for a character like Superman, compared to heroes with much more obvious personality flaws. And to write it for a modern audience, even harder. Watch the rest of Superman 2. The good ideas are there, but there was a lot of camp in that movie too that keeps it more light-hearted than it should be. Overall...
Spoiler for Hidden:
It takes a very similar direction as Spiderman 2
Then Superman 3, I think that was as dark as the Reeves films ever got. I don't know which ones you've seen and which ones you haven't, so I don't know how much more I should say about them, if you're wanting a first-time experience.

Golden Girl

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Re: 2nd Man of Steel Trailer is up
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2012, 01:56:46 AM »
Its not a proper CoH community thread about Superman until people start working out which of the CoH origins he'd fit into.
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: 2nd Man of Steel Trailer is up
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2012, 02:10:36 AM »
Its not a proper CoH community thread about Superman until people start working out which of the CoH origins he'd fit into.

Natural.  :P

houtex

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Re: 2nd Man of Steel Trailer is up
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2012, 04:33:45 AM »
Oooh, Superman origin discussion.  YAY.

Supes wasn't augmented with technology, nor affected by science, although both of those were used to get him to Earth.  So those are out.

Magic is possible, but only with the argument that sufficient technology or events that can't be otherwise explained/understood can be said to be magic... or miracles... or.. But anyway, magic is an excuse, not an origin.

He is not a mutant, as he is a normal Kryptonian.  As evidenced by Supergirl, Zod, et al, ANY Kryptonian that came to Earth would be Super.

Therefore, he is of Natural origin, because that's just what he is, as Tim stated, and that pretty much has to close the discussion.

Now, what Archetype and power sets do you choose?  Tank, Inv/SS, is my take on it, of course. :)

Golden Girl

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Re: 2nd Man of Steel Trailer is up
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2012, 05:29:44 AM »
Supes Now, what Archetype and power sets do you choose?  Tank, Inv/SS, is my take on it, of course. :)

He'd be an ice tank - DCUO says so.
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Tenzhi

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Re: 2nd Man of Steel Trailer is up
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2012, 05:40:56 AM »
He'd be an ice tank - DCUO says so.

He's not an ice tank in DCUO, that's merely the best way a player character has of emulating him.  He's a filthy cheater that doesn't have to obey the rules us mortals have to follow in DCUO.
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Re: 2nd Man of Steel Trailer is up
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2012, 08:00:19 AM »
A rant on another gaming forum that I went on back when this project first got announced:

Personally, I got a lot of enjoyment out of Superman Returns. As someone who grew up with the Christopher Reeves films, it was exactly what I would've expected out of a Superman film. It captured the look and feel of those movies, right down to the "3-D" 'flying at your face' opening credits. But I have a feeling it would've taken more than just a different directing style to put Superman at the top of the box office. I always hear nothing but whines about Superman, and this is long before SR came out. It's not much of a stretch to say that "Nobody likes Superman." And IMO it's for a simple reason... society sucks. Now before anyone slaps a fanboy label on me, let me clarify that. I'm saying "Nobody likes Superman because society sucks", not "Society sucks because nobody likes Superman."

First of all, a great deal of Superman was obviously taken from old mythology, more specifically, half-human/half-God characters like Hercules (or in Supe's case, half-alien). Such characters were, no big shock, VERY powerful. Having one parent who was a deity will give you that kind of immortality. This also brings with it a form of jealousy that you typically won't see with other more 'human' superheroes. It's already been said once or twice in this thread. "He's too powerful!" This is even touched upon in Superman Returns, when Lex Luthor says "Gods are selfish beings who fly around in little red capes and don't share their power." Obviously, having Superman beat to within an inch of death and hospitalized on full life support wasn't enough to supress the audience's hatred of his powers.

Jealousy is far too petty of a reason for all the 'hate mail' Superman recieves though. For a great deal of storytelling history, superheroes were people that society could look up to, and aspire to be more like. Even if we couldn't achieve the same great power of the superheroes, we could still follow their example, and do what is within our capabilities. The problem here (and this is where the hatred of Superman really comes from) is we no longer want that. To aspire to be like a Superhero forces us to look into ourselves and see how we can improve. Superman makes us look bad... really bad. He has enough power to bring humanity to its knees without even breaking a sweat, yet he treats us with all the gentle handling and etiquette of a boyscout helping an old lady across the street, regardless of how stressed out he might be. Of course nobody in modern society likes that. We'd much rather have Michael Douglas in "Falling Down." We want a hero who would do exactly what we would do. We want our idols to tell us that we don't need to improve. Apparently turning Superman into a deadbeat father who fornicates with Lois Lane just before abandoning Earth for a few years wasn't enough to change anyone's opinion of his 'pansy-assed personality' or his 'flawless moral code.' Maybe if he'd beat the living pancake out of Lex Luthor in a police interrogation room the way Batman did to the Joker, people would be more accepting of him. In fact, I'd bet my money on it. Superman simply isn't made of the stuff that an impulse-based society can relate to. The same goes for his main character flaw: lonliness. In a reality where we will do anything, ANYTHING to fit in and be accepted, how can we possibly relate to an orphaned alien living on a foreign world who won't abandon his concept of good & evil no matter what? Quite obviously, we can't.

Perhaps it really would be better if the franchise were just abandoned instead of relaunching whatever "as dark as the characters will allow" version of Superman they have in mind. Who will be deciding how dark the characters will allow? If it's audience surveys or the producers (who again, will do anything, ANYTHING, to appeal to the general population), all we'll get out of this reboot is a sick perversion. Better to bring on Doomsday with the present incarnation and bury him, never to grace the silver screen again. Superman would rather die than lose his identity just to be fashionable. But that's what Superman would do. That's not what we would do.


In short, most of what makes Superman interesting isn't his power, but his inner struggles. And nobody wants to go to a blockbuster film to see a superhero meditating on emptiness in his ice castle. They want to see him smash, smash some more, smash some more stuff, give us a moral lesson that takes less than 1 minute of screen-time to deliver, and then get back to the smashing.

*applause and agreement*

I think the one thing we differ on is that I didn't enjoy Superman Returns. However, the reasons I really didn't enjoy it was that it didn't feel like they got the characters right. The deadbeat dad thing... okay, maybe that's okay - he didn't know, things are tough... eh, even just leaving for that long? Yeah, maybe it's okay... The way he went after Lois, despite her involvement with someone else? I didn't like that or feel like it fit character at all... Oh, also, Lois seemed terribly miscast (especially for a continuation of the previous franchise).
And, unfortunately, the Clark Kent performance seemed... really poor, to me.
I really need to watch that again, because I haven't seen it since my one viewing in the theatre (Imax 3d, to boot).

Anyway, hehe, the bottom line is that I didn't enjoy the last movie because it already went too far into the trying to make Superman more modern and sucky like all you sucky suckers would prefer him to suck... except, it just felt, to me, that it was the writers simply not getting what a man like Superman is all about.



An aside... as for the action of a Superman movie... I'd love to see more of a retro Superman take... with him against giant invading robots and meteors and mass amounts of planetary struggles on his lone shoulders.

Still, I have zero problem with Luthor and didn't mind him being the villain in any of the movies that he was.
In fact... Superman 3 would have been far greater if Luthor was in that one... that's for sure (in my opinion, anyway).
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Electric-Knight

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Re: 2nd Man of Steel Trailer is up
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2012, 08:37:36 AM »
Also, I think I agree with Agent Coulson...
"The world could use a little old-fashion".

I'll be happy to be proven wrong by this film, but I am not looking forward to it or thinking that it is going to be anything I'll like very much - at the least, as a Superman movie.
Call me old fashioned, but some characters just need to be what they've always been ("always" being a rather loose/relative word in the long years of comicbooks).
You want something darker, grittier and more "realistic"? Use another super hero... or, HEY YA KNOW... invent your own damn friggin' character!!!!!!! Oh, no, sorry... that's not possible. Use someone else's character and change them.
I know the argument... update and modernize the character so that the same moral stories and inner-character can be shared with new generations...
I just don't buy it.
I'm no simple goodie-two-shoes kinda guy... anyone who knows my villains and some of my own creations may know that.
However, I also love and appreciate the characters that are that way.
And, at the very least, I don't enjoy new ("exciting") takes of old, legendary characters that are long established.

*shrugs*
Just, apparently, needed to say that...


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