Connecticut School Massacre - Death-Toll currently at 26

[Minotaur]

At least back when I was a kid people would wait at least six months before trying to make political hay out of something like this.

I suspect in today's world, outside the immediate area, in 6 months this will be but a distant memory, so if you want to make political hay, you have to do it immediately.

I don't think we in Britain will ever fully understand the American fascination with guns, but if gun control is to happen, I'm sure it will be in the wake of something like this. 

[corvus1970]

I don't think we in Britain will ever fully understand the American fascination with guns, but if gun control is to happen, I'm sure it will be in the wake of something like this.

I've lived in the States my whole life and I don't fully understand it either. I think a lot of it is based on a nugget of truth, a huge helping of myth/wishful thinking, a bucket-full of manipulation, and big, stinky fear.

[Little David]

If you want to understand it, you'd have to look at the conditions under which the country was founded.

Admittedly it's hard not to argue for gun control in the wake of something this horrible, but to look at it realistically ... if someone really wants to go on a killing spree, they won't be stopped by a lack of legally available guns. They'll find them on the black market. And if they can't get guns that way, they'll just turn to something else: knives, home-made explosives, what have you.

It just happened recently in China, as a friend just pointed out to me while we were talking about this ... and though the stabbing spree was not fatal, the article mentions another in 2010 that was.

[Minotaur]

If you want to understand it, you'd have to look at the conditions under which the country was founded.

Admittedly it's hard not to argue for gun control in the wake of something this horrible, but to look at it realistically ... if someone really wants to go on a killing spree, they won't be stopped by a lack of legally available guns. They'll find them on the black market. And if they can't get guns that way, they'll just turn to something else: knives, home-made explosives, what have you.

It just happened recently in China, as a friend just pointed out to me while we were talking about this ... and though the stabbing spree was not fatal, the article mentions another in 2010 that was.

Somebody made almost exactly this sort of post on a bridge related forum I frequent, the point is that a chair/hockey stick/fire extinguisher/other object lying around gives you a chance (and if there are 2 or 3 of you a very good chance) against a guy with a knife, not so good against a gun.

Nobody can prevent somebody killing people, removing the gun can save them killing as many people.

[TimtheEnchanter]

I've lived in the States my whole life and I don't fully understand it either. I think a lot of it is based on a nugget of truth, a huge helping of myth/wishful thinking, a bucket-full of manipulation, and big, stinky fear.

A couple things I feel about gun ownership in the U.S.

#1. While I can't speak for others in this situation, based on the times where something really scary has happened around here and the police were called... if there WERE a situation with an unstable killer, if we were to wait on the police, unarmed... we'd be dead by the time they got here.

#2. "People shouldn't be afraid of the government. The government should be afraid of the people." We are already on very shaky ground in the U.S. Many think that another civil war, workers' revolt, etc is inevitable, given enough time. Heck, it may even become necessary someday. Taking away the right to bear arms would have nothing to do with public safety. The massacres make for convenient excuses, but ultimately that's not why it would be happening. Just like the bill proposed that would give the government carte blanche to log and sift through 100% of everyone's internet activities was given the much more innocent-defending label of, "The Protecting Children from Internet Pornographers Act of 2011".

#3. A gun ban will only take the guns away from law-abiding citizens who are no threat to anybody. Those who want to pull this kind of heinous crap will simply go to the black market instead, just like drugs. And illegal guns make for a much bigger headache for forensics than legal ones.

Frankly, even if guns get taken away, I'll STILL be more interested in looking for ways to prevent people from reaching such disastrous ends in the first place. The current build of Reality is horridly broken. It shouldn't be a shocker that people are losing their sanity as a result.

[corvus1970]

Agreed. While it might help in the short-term, it still won't address the economic, social and, occasionally, health-care issues that cause a lot of the violence in this country.

[Electric-Knight]

Not coming at this from any personal or political agenda (other than being horrified, of course):
One of the first things that has always come to my mind when considering the person responsible for such acts is... Were they on some sort of psychogenic drug?
Not that there aren't people capable of losing it all on their own... But the increase in young people committing such atrocities... And the nature of today's society handing out such heavy drugs to children and people at first signs of "problems" (quotes for various sorts and differing degrees) fills me with concern.
It's just a topic I would like to see reach the open, mainstream national conversation.

[corvus1970]

Early reports suggested the shooter was troubled, but I haven't seen any stories mentioning any sort of diagnosis. So, I really dunno at this point.

[Portland Underground]

Just...wrenching. 

[Electric-Knight]

Early reports suggested the shooter was troubled, but I haven't seen any stories mentioning any sort of diagnosis. So, I really dunno at this point.

Absolutely. I just want to reiterate that I am entirely all for not jumping to conclusions and just hope that such information can be learned eventually and put to good use.

[corvus1970]

Whole-heartedly agreed.

Its hard not to, because when something like this happens, people ask "Why?" Sometimes there are no answers, and even when there are, it can take time to come to the correct conclusions.

[FatherXmas]

This isn't a bullied kid striking back at his classmates.  This isn't an adult seeking vengeance on his current or former coworkers.  It makes no sense to go after 6 year olds.  None.

Of course they found "violent video games" at the house.  I'm sure a random sampling of games found in homes of 16-25 year olds will show "violent video games" is nearly the norm.

I've seen several reports from former classmates from years ago refer to him as "goth" simply because he was an introverted loner.

The media is casting about for some social ill to blame.  So far it's his mother taking up sport shooting as a hobby and therefore he was able to get hold of her guns.  Some media outlets have referred to her as a "survivalist" for owner those weapons.  They lived in a $700,000 home on a nice chunk of land in an affluent small town.  It wasn't a bunker stocked with food and supplies beyond what someone living in an area that had two tropical events and an snow storm that took out power for over a week each time in the past 18 months.

Owning guns for sport shooting or hunting is like enjoying MMOs, video games, anime, comic books, etc.  If you don't do it yourself you won't "get" people who do.  Society understands a guy with a room devoted to his favorite sports team but scratch their heads over somebody who has a Star Trek or Star Wars room.  Same is true for someone who owns a variety of guns for sport or hunting.

The media is also talking about upping security at all schools.  This jerk shot his way into the building.  Unless you replace every window in a school with bullet proof glass and windows that can't be opened, there isn't a lot you can do to prevent someone determined to enter.  Some suggest an armed police officer in every school.  This would have only slow a determined individual down only slightly more than an unarmed teacher because nobody thinks someone is going to shoot up a random elementary school!

All of the proposed changes are simply security theater.  It makes people feel safer without actually making them safer because in reality they are already very, very safe when compared to other parts of the world.

What happen in Newtown, CT was a horrible tragedy.  But it was unpreventable due to it's shear randomness.  A determined individual looking to go out in a blaze of so called glory can do immeasurable damage in so many ways that you simply have to take their blows and accept that it's the cost of a free society unless you want an intrusive police state watching everybody's actions through a microscope. 

We don't have a Mr. Reese and Finch with their machine looking out for us.  We don't have a Mr. Parker that could backstep and prevent this.  Bad things happen, often to good and innocent people but that doesn't mean we should radically alter society to give an illusion of better safety than we already have.

Sorry, this is just my way of copping with what happened.

[JaguarX]

This isn't a bullied kid striking back at his classmates.  This isn't an adult seeking vengeance on his current or former coworkers.  It makes no sense to go after 6 year olds.  None.

Of course they found "violent video games" at the house.  I'm sure a random sampling of games found in homes of 16-25 year olds will show "violent video games" is nearly the norm.

I've seen several reports from former classmates from years ago refer to him as "goth" simply because he was an introverted loner.

The media is casting about for some social ill to blame.  So far it's his mother taking up sport shooting as a hobby and therefore he was able to get hold of her guns.  Some media outlets have referred to her as a "survivalist" for owner those weapons.  They lived in a $700,000 home on a nice chunk of land in an affluent small town.  It wasn't a bunker stocked with food and supplies beyond what someone living in an area that had two tropical events and an snow storm that took out power for over a week each time in the past 18 months.

Owning guns for sport shooting or hunting is like enjoying MMOs, video games, anime, comic books, etc.  If you don't do it yourself you won't "get" people who do.  Society understands a guy with a room devoted to his favorite sports team but scratch their heads over somebody who has a Star Trek or Star Wars room.  Same is true for someone who owns a variety of guns for sport or hunting.

The media is also talking about upping security at all schools.  This jerk shot his way into the building.  Unless you replace every window in a school with bullet proof glass and windows that can't be opened, there isn't a lot you can do to prevent someone determined to enter.  Some suggest an armed police officer in every school.  This would have only slow a determined individual down only slightly more than an unarmed teacher because nobody thinks someone is going to shoot up a random elementary school!

All of the proposed changes are simply security theater.  It makes people feel safer without actually making them safer because in reality they are already very, very safe when compared to other parts of the world.

What happen in Newtown, CT was a horrible tragedy.  But it was unpreventable due to it's shear randomness.  A determined individual looking to go out in a blaze of so called glory can do immeasurable damage in so many ways that you simply have to take their blows and accept that it's the cost of a free society unless you want an intrusive police state watching everybody's actions through a microscope. 

We don't have a Mr. Reese and Finch with their machine looking out for us.  We don't have a Mr. Parker that could backstep and prevent this.  Bad things happen, often to good and innocent people but that doesn't mean we should radically alter society to give an illusion of better safety than we already have.

Sorry, this is just my way of copping with what happened.

Indeeeeeeeed.

[Arkasas]

Of course they found "violent video games" at the house.  I'm sure a random sampling of games found in homes of 16-25 year olds will show "violent video games" is nearly the norm.

My local newspaper had a little piece today about how he went to LAN parties, and played strategy games such as World of Warcraft, Counterstrike, and Mario Party, instead of violent video games. The number of things wrong with that statement are quite obvious to anyone who has ever been a nerd.

[corvus1970]

Amazing how the fingers get so easily pointed in the wrong direction.

[Victoria Victrix]

Well, from my years and years and years studying biology and ethology...sometimes critters are just born defective.  With so much that can go wrong in the brain...as good as humans are at compensating for that, sometimes there are things that just cannot be overcome.  That's the only explanation I can come up with.

[Minotaur]

Well, from my years and years and years studying biology and ethology...sometimes critters are just born defective.  With so much that can go wrong in the brain...as good as humans are at compensating for that, sometimes there are things that just cannot be overcome.  That's the only explanation I can come up with.

http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/

A tough read, but I think an important addition to the debate.

[eabrace]

I've lived in the States my whole life and I don't fully understand it either.

That.

And that's having grown up in a rural community where opening day for deer season is basically observed like any standard holiday.  I do understand owning firearms suitable for hunting.

[healix]

it is important that we remember these new angels, and not the defective person who took them away............

[Septipheran]

The media is also talking about upping security at all schools.  This jerk shot his way into the building.  Unless you replace every window in a school with bullet proof glass and windows that can't be opened, there isn't a lot you can do to prevent someone determined to enter.  Some suggest an armed police officer in every school.  This would have only slow a determined individual down only slightly more than an unarmed teacher because nobody thinks someone is going to shoot up a random elementary school!

All of the proposed changes are simply security theater.  It makes people feel safer without actually making them safer because in reality they are already very, very safe when compared to other parts of the world.

The most simple, effective solution would be to encourage teachers to pursue concealed carry licenses in order to protect their students in this kind of situation. A police officer pretty much has a giant target on their chest from the psycho's perspective. Armed teachers is a deterrent because a would be sociopath couldn't identify who might or might not pose a direct threat to their lunacy as easily.