Connecticut School Massacre - Death-Toll currently at 26

[Electric-Knight]

I'm not pro or anti anything explicitly... but I have known a lot of public school teachers and I can't think of a one of them that I'd like to see carrying a gun (at all, never mind in school).

Just food for thought.

[JaguarX]

it is important that we remember these new angels, and not the defective person who took them away............

Yeah. I agree.
 No fame for the murderer.


I saddens me when people can name the Columbine shooters off the bat but cant remember a single victim's name. Hell the Columbine shooters have their own detailed wikipedia page while maybe only one two maybe have any semblence of the page and the rest are barely mentioned. These rae not the people that should be immortalized in history. People remember Tim McVeigh but not the victims. Hitler but not the people he killed (granted that would be a whole lot of names to remember.), Bin Laden and his inner circle but not the 9/11 victims, Lee Malvo but not the people he shot.  It should be the victims that are never forgotten not the killer.



But also it's also about time to start blaming the killers for these aact (society as a whole) instead of adding to the "It wasnt my fault I killed those children. The gun made me do it. If it wasnt for the gun. I wouldnt have did it." logic. The gun nor anything or anyone else didnt decide to get up that morning grab a gun, go to the school. enter the classroom and blow those school children away. The killer made those decision to get up, plan the massacre, decide to act on that plan, and pick up a gun, and kill those people.

[Septipheran]

I'm not pro or anti anything explicitly... but I have known a lot of public school teachers and I can't think of a one of them that I'd like to see carrying a gun (at all, never mind in school).

Just food for thought.

Obviously there would need to be pretty stringent requirements, but it's a perfectly plausible solution.

[JaguarX]

I'm not pro or anti anything explicitly... but I have known a lot of public school teachers and I can't think of a one of them that I'd like to see carrying a gun (at all, never mind in school).

Just food for thought.

yeah seen many school teacher exhibit much more scarier behavior than many crazy people I know.



I just thought: on military base, any old person even if they knew the principal personally, cant just walk into a school and waltz into any classroom they choose. first you have to walk past a desk and sign in, thus people know you are there and of course you have to state your reaso nfor being there and it has to be valid and then you get an escort if you have buisness there. Of course i nthe shooting, it probably wouldnt have worked well as that shooter probably would have killed the front desk people anyways but then that would have given time someone who hear the shots to call for help, lock some doors or something, hide, and possible saving lives. Instead of the killer just casually walking into a classroom no questions asked and starting the mayhem on a classroom full of students.
Or like in some schools in supposed dangerous parts of town, (where ironically shooting likes this rarely if ever happened) and having trained armed security. Throughly trained. Not some trigger happy burnt out on edge police officer but one that is trained, mental stable, and trained again, police officer.

[corvus1970]

I'm not pro or anti anything explicitly... but I have known a lot of public school teachers and I can't think of a one of them that I'd like to see carrying a gun (at all, never mind in school).

Not to mention that in almost every case where a civilian with a gun tried to intervene and stop a gunman, its ended badly.

[FatherXmas]

The most simple, effective solution would be to encourage teachers to pursue concealed carry licenses in order to protect their students in this kind of situation. A police officer pretty much has a giant target on their chest from the psycho's perspective. Armed teachers is a deterrent because a would be sociopath couldn't identify who might or might not pose a direct threat to their lunacy as easily.

I'm pro gun ownership but I'm against that.

As for any talk about resurrecting the federal assault weapons ban, Connecticut still had theirs, modeled after the former federal one, and that riffle was legal in Connecticut.  I might agree about clip size for a gun normally used for target shooting but gun owners buy extra clips the same way I buy USB drives, "oohh a sale, you can never have too many".  And since changing clips only takes a moment, it's doesn't really impact the final result when going against unarmed tykes.

[Electric-Knight]

I'm not sure we should get into this stuff (although, I certainly would like to believe we're capable of handling it all respectfully as you all have so far), but I just thought I'd say that any such possibly reasonable adjustments (minimal or extreme) cannot be seen as fail-safe deterrents - no matter what side of the fence one may be discussing from.

It's not happening in this thread, but the one constant I see is a lack of conversation and, instead, the persistent throwing of made-up minds at each other - which is so disappointing and basically futile.
I imagine that there are likely equally valid options that differ and it's just worth finding some agreements and/or compromises.

[TimtheEnchanter]

On the topic of deterrents, there are all sorts of non-lethal alternatives to guns. Really cool sci-fi stuff that can incapacitate a street full of maniacs without projectiles or any permanent bodily harm. They just haven't become commonplace yet.

[Electric-Knight]

Oh, that's true too, Tim.

Back to video games, I caught a tiny bit of a report on CNN where a woman who'd been investigating was relaying what an old highschool friend of the killer's had told her. She said that they used to play video games together, namely "Warcraft and Starcraft - where you basically set up bases against one another and then..." she paused, "Go in and kill everyone".
Up for an Emmy, that one.
 

[TimtheEnchanter]

Back to video games, I caught a tiny bit of a report on CNN where a woman who'd been investigating was relaying what an old highschool friend of the killer's had told her. She said that they used to play video games together, namely "Warcraft and Starcraft - where you basically set up bases against one another and then..." she paused, "Go in and kill everyone".
Up for an Emmy, that one.

Time to make a fool out of someone...

Maybe someone just over-generalized here (and they really mean WoW and SC2) but if I take that at face value... Warcraft is so old he wouldn't have even been born yet. To play Starcraft when it was released, he would've been 6 years old.

So technically she's trying to scapegoat a gaming experience that he had roughly 15 years prior.

[chasearcanum]

I'm not pro or anti anything explicitly... but I have known a lot of public school teachers and I can't think of a one of them that I'd like to see carrying a gun (at all, never mind in school).

Just food for thought.

I'm not against a teacher carrying a firearm due to any competency issues on their part, but our experiences in teacher differs greatly.  I met many of my most lasting heroes in the classroom.

I'm more concerned that the type of teacher that's going to be willing and capable at responding to gunfire is the one that's willing and capable in helping break up a fight, confront an emotionally-charged kid, or deal with similar student turmoil.  If the gun's on them, then its also within arm's reach of the angry, belligerent and emotionally-questionable kids they're confronting.  If the gun's not on them, then its being left unattended (and potentially USED in such an attack) or so locked away that it is of little use for responding to gunfire.

Many people who buy a gun for self-defense end up having that weapon used against them.  In *this* kind of situation, you're just increasing those odds.


Yes, I will concede that if there are more armed people inside the school, there's the potential for a shorter response time when an attacker arrives.   However, it doesn't take long for a clip to empty in a semi-auto... even a large clip.   No armed teacher, focused on teaching, (not readying for a quick draw at any moment), is ever going to respond fast enough to prevent that first clip from emptying, odds are several clips will be used before someone armed gets there... but after even one you've got a classroom full of dead kids.   

What were we trying to prevent again?

[Merseine]

The most simple, effective solution would be to encourage teachers to pursue concealed carry licenses in order to protect their students in this kind of situation. A police officer pretty much has a giant target on their chest from the psycho's perspective. Armed teachers is a deterrent because a would be sociopath couldn't identify who might or might not pose a direct threat to their lunacy as easily.

I understand your position and respectfully disagree with it.  In my opinion the answer is not more guns.

I am a former high school science teacher who taught in an alternative school for 3 years and we had every kind of "non-standard student" you can think of, from convicted teenage felons (with ankle monitors and parole officers) to 15-16-17 year old moms and dads.  I can say that we as a faculty confronted this issue head on. We were trained (and re-trained regularly) in non-violent intervention techniques that I only had to use twice.  Once during a fight between two students and once when an ex-student came in looking for a suspected enemy.  I can still see that student in my mind's eye and I am thankful that I never had to confront someone with a firearm.

The non-violent intervention techniques we were taught may not have been able to be used, or even made a difference in this tragic situation, but I would rather have used those techniques than even have the option of being able to pull a gun on another human being.  That's me, and YMMV, but if you've never been in a classroom with challenging students, with all due respect, you really don't know what goes on. 

[Victoria Victrix]

Folks, the bottom line here is very simple.

We don't know what caused this young man to act this way, although "I Am Adam Lanza's Mother" certainly does seem to point to something no one seems to be able to cure or understand.

We don't know what could have prevented this. 

We don't know exactly how he got into the school.

We don't know exactly what he did when he got there.  There is only one living adult witness.

We don't know are the operative words here.  Anything we say is pure speculation.

Let's not do the same thing as the media and the politicians.  Please.  We're smarter than that.

[Aggelakis]

Hey guys, just want to thank ya'll for not going crazy with this. I've seen some really horrible stuff being said back and forth in other venues, and I like to think we're all better than that. Thanks for proving me right so far. Please keep up the respect and tact. There's no reason to let this become a fight between our community members. If you find yourself getting upset, please take a break instead of posting something you may regret later. Let's keep this positive. We should be focusing on the children (and the adults), their families, and their friends, not on trying to lay blame somewhere.

[Electric-Knight]

Yes indeed, Aggelakis.
It is such a morbid tragedy and sent me, and many I am sure, reeling.

The vitriol I have seen being thrown around (in numerous other places) during the aftermath has been quite terrible itself.

When we look at that horror-stricken community all coming together for each other, how can we not do the same? How can we not act in kind? If there are ever lessons to learn from such things, it is through the resolve of those most impacted that I believe we must humbly attempt to emulate, carry on and promote.
After all, it really is all about respecting each other, respecting life. Start with that. If it doesn't come from there, we don't need it right now.

(all simply in my own humble opinion, at least)

Also, I had a conversation in which someone else was talking about the aspects and benefits of community and, as the benefits were being mentioned, I was thinking that was what I (and, from what I have gathered, many of you) get from this community.
*hugs*

[faith.grins]

*hugs*

(Hugs)

[FatherXmas]

Folks, the bottom line here is very simple.

We don't know what caused this young man to act this way, although "I Am Adam Lanza's Mother" certainly does seem to point to something no one seems to be able to cure or understand.

We don't know what could have prevented this. 

We don't know exactly how he got into the school.

We don't know exactly what he did when he got there.  There is only one living adult witness.

We don't know are the operative words here.  Anything we say is pure speculation.

Let's not do the same thing as the media and the politicians.  Please.  We're smarter than that.

Actually we do since the Connecticut State Police has reported exactly how he got into the school.

And you do realize that blog was by another woman whose 13 year old boy has some undiagnosed condition that causes him to have extreme outbursts of rage and not by the shooter's now dead mother.  There weren't any reports about if the shooter previously had any instances of an uncontrolled temper.

And there are two witnesses recovering from gunshot wounds.

[Septipheran]

I understand your position and respectfully disagree with it.  In my opinion the answer is not more guns.

I am a former high school science teacher who taught in an alternative school for 3 years and we had every kind of "non-standard student" you can think of, from convicted teenage felons (with ankle monitors and parole officers) to 15-16-17 year old moms and dads.  I can say that we as a faculty confronted this issue head on. We were trained (and re-trained regularly) in non-violent intervention techniques that I only had to use twice.  Once during a fight between two students and once when an ex-student came in looking for a suspected enemy.  I can still see that student in my mind's eye and I am thankful that I never had to confront someone with a firearm.

The non-violent intervention techniques we were taught may not have been able to be used, or even made a difference in this tragic situation, but I would rather have used those techniques than even have the option of being able to pull a gun on another human being.  That's me, and YMMV, but if you've never been in a classroom with challenging students, with all due respect, you really don't know what goes on.

I have an aunt who is a public school teacher that feels very different than you do. In fact, she welcomes the opportunity to be able to protect children from this situation if by some terrible stroke of luck she were placed in that position. Non-violence looks really dreamy on a t-shirt, but John Lennon never wrote any songs for when a deranged sociopath was staring down a barrel at small children. You can't legislate the insanity out of people (I've seen some funny image macros about the likelihood of more laws preventing criminals from committing crimes) but you can absolutely use violence as a last resort to prevent innocents from being harmed, and in cases like this one I would not bat a single eyelash or even feign the slightest concern if that violence against the perpetrator was lethal.

[Minotaur]

Actually we do since the Connecticut State Police has reported exactly how he got into the school.

And you do realize that blog was by another woman whose 13 year old boy has some undiagnosed condition that causes him to have extreme outbursts of rage and not by the shooter's now dead mother.  There weren't any reports about if the shooter previously had any instances of an uncontrolled temper.

Yes I did, and there have been several reports (that the BBC carried) of the shooter having Aspergers, which in some cases but not all causes exactly that sort of temper (it does in the only case I've run across personally).

[corvus1970]

I have an aunt who is a public school teacher that feels very different than you do.

And in the same situation does she feel that she could have retrieved her gun in time to stop the assailant? As I mentioned before, civilian intervention tends to go badly. Furthermore, in most cases where an armed civilian has stopped a shooter, its happened after the shooting was over, and the civilian was a security officer, an ex-cop, or ex-military. I can cite specific examples if need-be.

You arm teachers, and you cause an escalation because the potential shooter will know that said teachers are armed. Sure, this might dissuade a few, but it won't dissuade them all. You could end up with a shooter who wears body armor, like in the Texas courthouse shooting in 2005, for example. Furthermore you continue to create an illusion of security that cannot guarantee safety, and fails to address the root causes of violence.

The solution is not "more guns".