Livestream Q&A with Matt 'Positron' Miller

[Starsman]

Shocked there is no thread on this... or I have a very bad eye...

Anyways:

MMORPG.com will be featuring former City of Heroes senior lead designer Matt 'Positron' Miller this Thursday, December 20 to discuss the now shutdown superhero MMO as part of a livestream Q&A.

Link (They want user questsions)

[AlienOne]

Wow, thanks... I just posted.

[Globetrotter]

It's in the 'Thank the Media thread'

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=4908.580

[Starsman]

Come on guys! They want us to submit questions, I am sure there are more questions than the ones that have been posted so far!

[Quinch]

I keep trying to, but my registration email constantly refuses to arrive.

[Starsman]

I keep trying to, but my registration email constantly refuses to arrive.

Check your junk/spam box. I found mine there.

[Ironwolf]

Posted a a question asking them if they would consider moving the Paragon Studios to Michigan as the state is offering 40% tax credits and 0% loans for up to $15 million for movies and game developers to come to Michigan.

In my research I found that these loans can even be given TO ACQUIRE IP RIGHTS!

Yes, the state of Michigan could loan Paragon Studios the money to by the game.

[Sugoi]

I just asked the question that's been on my mind since the announcement of the CoH Shutdown was originally made.

How long would it take to create a CoH-like MMO from scratch, given the funding and co-workers?

I figured it would be nice to get a professional estimate from those who've done the work already.

[Knightslayer]

Posted a a question asking them if they would consider moving the Paragon Studios to Michigan as the state is offering 40% tax credits and 0% loans for up to $15 million for movies and game developers to come to Michigan.

In my research I found that these loans can even be given TO ACQUIRE IP RIGHTS!

Yes, the state of Michigan could loan Paragon Studios the money to by the game.

Matt did say he might be interested in starting another project, provided he found the right partners.
Either way, I'm looking forward to the Q&A.

[HEATSTROKE]

 this is just my own conjecture but it seems to me like he might be done with MMO's. It seems to me the industry is moving away from them.

[Starsman]

this is just my own conjecture but it seems to me like he might be done with MMO's. It seems to me the industry is moving away from them.

Industry is NOT moving away from MMOs. Industry IS moving away from subscription models, though.

[Victoria Victrix]

Industry is NOT moving away from MMOs. Industry IS moving away from subscription models, though.

Given that in the latest interview with Matt and Melissa, they both said that CoH was making MORE money when they went to F2P, I can see why.

[Osborn]

Given that in the latest interview with Matt and Melissa, they both said that CoH was making MORE money when they went to F2P, I can see why.

And they didn't whole-heartedly embrace F2P as a model properly, so that can only really be good news to anybody that knows the F2P model well when considering the IP.

[Frostyfrozen]

I put in my 2 cents worth of questions hope the fit and not seem to dig to much.

[Starsman]

Given that in the latest interview with Matt and Melissa, they both said that CoH was making MORE money when they went to F2P, I can see why.

Well, that's not the reason, that's just the sign.

The reason is a bit compound. For one, there are so many games out there, so many MMOs. It's hard to spend any money on a game you may not like. A F2P model drastically lowers the entry friction, making it extremely easy for anyone to just download the game and try it out. This brings in a lot of more players than you would.

A second point is commitment. Once a player is in, he is normally required to keep paying his monthly fee. It's a bit of an all-or-nothing. With a F2P model, the player can decide to only pay certain months, or micro-manage what privileges he is willing to pay for. One of my best friends in game used to cancel and return all the time due to RL issues. I bet had he have a F2P model at the time, he would never have forced himself into these windows. Eventually, during one of these windows, it seems he just never came back. In short: RL forces you to quit for a bit and once you quit it's more likely you may never return. With F2P you are rarely forced to quit, you are still there the day you are able and willing to pay for something.

Another killer of MMOs can be small communities. If you have empty servers, people stop playing even if they love the game. Even the stingiest of F2P players, the ones that never spend a cent in the game, are actually contributing to the success. By filling servers with team-mates for those that are willing to pay, they make sure that those paying customers never quit out of seclusion.

And then, an issue that comes up with this: once too many engage into F2P models, it becomes even harder to convince anyone to try your MMO if you are charging money up front in any way (be it box, monthly fee or worse, both.) Right now, launching a paid MMO is crazy and you should not attempt it unless you got a HUGE level of hype and strong IP on your side. There are just way too many free options out there for you to be able to gain any traction as a paid game.

[Starsman]

And they didn't whole-heartedly embrace F2P as a model properly, so that can only really be good news to anybody that knows the F2P model well when considering the IP.

I think they embraced it strongly enough. They went more towards "strongly encourage VIP" over nickle-diming though. They held back a LOT of features that heavily motivated (in cases, nearly forced) people to just upgrade their accounts.

[Ziggy1890]

"UPDATE:
Due to Pokket being under the weather, we're going to be rescheduling this interview.  Hang tight for an updated time!  Thanks for bearing with us. Wish Pokket a speedy recovery! And thanks to Matt for bearing with our delays!"

[Osborn]

I think they embraced it strongly enough. They went more towards "strongly encourage VIP" over nickle-diming though. They held back a LOT of features that heavily motivated (in cases, nearly forced) people to just upgrade their accounts.

That's the problem though. F2P is a model to get people who won't or can't subscribe to pay something rather than nothing, and to fill empty seats and to spread word of mouth advertisement. Not as a model to trick them into paying a subscription. If your business strategy revolves around forcing subscriptions then you're doing it wrong.

That's why SWTOR is probably gonna shut doors in a year or so. Every F2P person feel that the "Preferred" class of player is treated like crap and avoids being one. But that doesn't mean they subscribe either. So they just fart around on Tython until they get tired and quit.

CoH didn't treat its "premium" players all that well either and tried to segregate them from VIPs but at least it didn't encourage them to quit by making the base game unfun by making them underpowered for even casual play nor encourage the VIP players to hate on them over /b 24/7.

[Kistulot]

I think they embraced it strongly enough. They went more towards "strongly encourage VIP" over nickle-diming though. They held back a LOT of features that heavily motivated (in cases, nearly forced) people to just upgrade their accounts.

While I do appreciate them not nickle and diming, I do think that you should have been able to with premium buy everything - just made it cost prohibitive so the things people WOULD want to buy, hey, its better to go VIP and get it in a bundle!

[Starsman]

That's the problem though. F2P is a model to get people who won't or can't subscribe to pay something rather than nothing, and to fill empty seats and to spread word of mouth advertisement. Not as a model to trick them into paying a subscription. If your business strategy revolves around forcing subscriptions then you're doing it wrong.

You are right to a point, the point where you say it's not about "tricking them into paying a subscription". The entire model IS about incentivizing the player to give  you money. It just has to be done in a way where the player does not feel forced to do so, just heavily encouraged.

The devs still took very seriously the ideal of SO balance, in fact, I think they took it even stronger after the game went F2P than before. CoH DID a good job at encouraging you to subscribe while also not frustrating the Free4Ever players.

That's why SWTOR is probably gonna shut doors in a year or so. Every F2P person feel that the "Preferred" class of player is treated like crap and avoids being one. But that doesn't mean they subscribe either. So they just fart around on Tython until they get tired and quit.

The biggest hurdle SWTOR will have is they still charge for the box. As far as addoption goes, you may as well build the Wall of China around your server and only allow in those that can buy a plane ticket.

[Golden Girl]

Doesn't The Secret World also require a purchase to play even as a freebie?

[Starsman]

Doesn't The Secret World also require a purchase to play even as a freebie?

Yes. I don't think they implemented their model to bathe entirely in the F2P model, but instead to stop the bleeding. I think too many of their players were quitting the game and not returning. I think their message seemed to be constructed in a way to convince players to return more than to convince players to try out the game.

Things like "if you tried the game at launch, we have changed a lot" seemed to be core themes of their promotion.

I just upgraded my PC, and steam has a small sale on the game. I may give it a try... I always liked dark games and dark horror themed zones where always my favorite in CoH.

[Frostyfrozen]

Oh the interviewer just asked for a delay NO POSITRON today due to feeling under the weather.

[Ceremonius]

Oh the interviewer just asked for a delay NO POSITRON today due to feeling under the weather.

Just 1 day and 1 hour .
So tomorrow at 07:30PM EST.

http://www.mmorpg.com/newsroom.cfm/read/26383/Livestream-QA-Postponed.html

[Perfidus]

"Why is this Livestream happening? Did I miss something? Is CoX coming back?"

If only.

[Osborn]

You are right to a point, the point where you say it's not about "tricking them into paying a subscription". The entire model IS about incentivizing the player to give  you money. It just has to be done in a way where the player does not feel forced to do so, just heavily encouraged.

The devs still took very seriously the ideal of SO balance, in fact, I think they took it even stronger after the game went F2P than before. CoH DID a good job at encouraging you to subscribe while also not frustrating the Free4Ever players.

The biggest hurdle SWTOR will have is they still charge for the box. As far as addoption goes, you may as well build the Wall of China around your server and only allow in those that can buy a plane ticket.

No they don't. Not to play as free at least.

[Starsman]

No they don't. Not to play as free at least.

That's what they said in the original announcement. If they dropped the box requirement by the time it went F2P, then it's a whole different matter (and I may actually give it a try then.)

[Wyrm]

That's what they said in the original announcement. If they dropped the box requirement by the time it went F2P, then it's a whole different matter (and I may actually give it a try then.)

I've never paid them a dime and have a level 16 Jedi.  They really do make it kinda suck for a freeb, tho.  Jedi jogging everywhere is ridiculous, and you have more useful powers than can fit in the single tray they give you by around level 12-14.

[Osborn]

I've never paid them a dime and have a level 16 Jedi.  They really do make it kinda suck for a freeb, tho.  Jedi jogging everywhere is ridiculous, and you have more useful powers than can fit in the single tray they give you by around level 12-14.

You can get 2 trays, but that's it. It guarantees you won't be competitive late game.

[Frostyfrozen]

Hitsteak is on the side chat bar as the pre show warm up. Yaaay Hitstreak!!

[Surelle]

If that website does a written transcript, I'd like to see that.   I missed the first 16 minutes due to kidlet issues.   

[Sajaana]

Did I not hear the interview correctly, or did Positron say that certain people in Paragon knew that NCSoft was thinking about closing down the game up to a year before?

If so, then this is the first time I heard of it.

[AlienOne]

Sajaana, I just watched it, and what they were talking about on the "year before" thing was planning for switching to the Free-to-Play model... Not many of the developers knew more than a few weeks in advance that they might shut down (at least that's what I understood). Many of them were just as surprised as we were (including Positron, apparently--he mentioned at the very beginning of the interview that he had no idea why they did it).

[Perfidus]

Yeah in a previous interview, Matt and Melissa both said only a few people caught wind the night before, but for the most part no one knew.

Also hearing a few things Matt said did make me sad. He pretty much said the likelihood of a brand new team being able to work on CoH is nearly impossible, they wouldn't know how to do anything. Still! If the IP is sold, no reason we can't get i24 in maintenance mode while they make CoH2. :3

[TonyV]

"We've had discussions, the designers, the programmers and I, you know, who've all found other jobs, and they're like, 'Could you imagine what would happen if [the Save CoH people] actually did succeed in getting City of Heroes back? Can you imagine them looking through our code trying to figure out just exactly how we made this game work?' and everyone is like, 'That could never happen. They'd be lost, because we were lucky to have some developers on there--myself, Melissa Bianco, Vince D'Amelio--who had been there since launch and could help reverse engineer a problems that we came up with.'"

Give us a copy of the code, and...

[mikoroshi]

I agree!

[Perfidus]

There's also the fact Matt and Melissa, so far as I know, don't have jobs... and could still help us. ^_^

[Cinnder]

Sorry if this has alerady been answered and I missed it, but is there a transcript available?  I can't see any such link on the site.

[Quinch]

No transcripts, but there's a copy of the video?

http://www.twitch.tv/mmorpgcom/b/350045268

[Osborn]

There's also the fact Matt and Melissa, so far as I know, don't have jobs... and could still help us. ^_^

Yeah but only between jobs if then. We can't ask them to do stuff as a charity after all. Best they could do is give Tony's team notes.

[HarvesterOfEyes]

Give us a copy of the code, and...

I've had that job before in my life. It's not easy work, but it's not impossible either.

As you say, just let me have the code.

[Septipheran]

I was able to catch the last half of this, very cool that they played my Last ITF Ever video throughout the whole thing.

[dwturducken]

I'm still learning programming, mind you, and I'll admit to not really having a solid grasp of OOP, but this is C or C++, right? Things are never as simple as I think they are, but the fact that things like the add-ons here and the Vidiot maps add-on exist means that some of the reverse engineering has already been done. Someone like Titan getting their hands on the code could mean months rather than years, right? Particularly with the number of skilled and motivated volunteers ready to answer the call?

[HarvesterOfEyes]

In principle this system currently functions fairly well and we know pretty intimately how it's supposed to behave.

Figuring out what the code is doing is not all that hard under those conditions. I've been in worse fixes. [At least the original coders spoke English.]

[Thunder Glove]

I'm thinking that maybe Matt's just trying not to get our hopes up too high.  I desperately want it to happen, but reviving CoH at this point is a longshot.

That makes me sad and sick to my stomach all over again just thinking about it.

[Kaos Arcanna]

While I would be thrilled if COX came back, at this point I'd be even more thrilled if one of the fan driven projects made it to publication and proved to be a roaring success. There'd be heart attacks at NcSoft!

[srmalloy]

Also hearing a few things Matt said did make me sad. He pretty much said the likelihood of a brand new team being able to work on CoH is nearly impossible, they wouldn't know how to do anything.

That's assuming that they try to go in and work on the existing code, instead of doing module-by-module rewrites as they go. Development wouldn't be as fast, but we'd get cleaner code out the far side.

[Mister Bison]

Give us a copy of the code, and...

By the way, their server code is pure C. But having C code is better for reengineering than no code at all, even with full spec. You can try to encapsulate things and make it work the same outside but be clean inside, little by little, you grow the boundaries of rewritten code. Or you can encapsulate it in "don't modify, strange magic" routines for later.

Plus, we are all players than played countless number of hours on the game, so we know at least partially how it works on the largest boundary.

[Kistulot]

That's assuming that they try to go in and work on the existing code, instead of doing module-by-module rewrites as they go. Development wouldn't be as fast, but we'd get cleaner code out the far side.

It still needs to bolt on somewhere.

[Mister Bison]

It still needs to bolt on somewhere.

You know what, working code works. For rewriting, you have all the code they have that works. Rewrite a part, see if anything doesn't work anymore, fix, repeat, rewrite done. Is that the bolt you need ? You even have steel beams attached.

[Codewalker]

That's assuming that they try to go in and work on the existing code, instead of doing module-by-module rewrites as they go. Development wouldn't be as fast, but we'd get cleaner code out the far side.

Module by module rewrites don't help when there are systems that the entire design of which was flawed from the start, and need to be rethought instead of adding more band-aids.

Things that a paid development team couldn't justify spending time on because they "work" as-is, but a volunteer effort would be all over.

Nothing wrong with pure C, though. You can do a lot with pure C, including object-oriented designs, cross platform compatibility, and things that most people think you need a fluffier language for. TBH, if I was going to write a game server, that would probably be my language of choice just because you can get down to the low level when you really need to without having to fight the compiler.

[Mister Bison]

Nothing wrong with pure C, though. You can do a lot with pure C, including object-oriented designs, cross platform compatibility, and things that most people think you need a fluffier language for. TBH, if I was going to write a game server, that would probably be my language of choice just because you can get down to the low level when you really need to without having to fight the compiler.

Nothing wrong with Bash scripts, you can also do a lot with those :-)
</sarcasm>
Be careful what you wish for. You can theoretically do anything with any language, but some have it easier than others, and some can't humanly do it. C is good enough mostly, but clearly we had time to improve since.

Personnally, I would go with a subset of C++, the one that you can still understand how it works without pulling all your hairs out (for instance, namespaces and non-virtual members and static methods are pretty straightforward, but can do a lot to organize the code and ease the programming via autocompletion. Some template metaprogramming is also cleaner than macros, but you have to do it wisely.)

[mikoroshi]

Mister Bison just made my head go boom.

[silvers1]

A shame it isnt written in C++.   Procedural systems tend to be a bear to maintain.
I have quite a bit of experience with both types of systems (although zero in gaming.)

[Starsman]

Nothing wrong with Bash scripts, you can also do a lot with those :-)
</sarcasm>
Be careful what you wish for. You can theoretically do anything with any language, but some have it easier than others, and some can't humanly do it. C is good enough mostly, but clearly we had time to improve since.

Personnally, I would go with a subset of C++, the one that you can still understand how it works without pulling all your hairs out (for instance, namespaces and non-virtual members and static methods are pretty straightforward, but can do a lot to organize the code and ease the programming via autocompletion. Some template metaprogramming is also cleaner than macros, but you have to do it wisely.)

The only real issue with C (and also C++) in my eyes is that it's too "dangerous" in the wrong hands. If you do things too fast, if you are not careful enough, or if you simply are not experienced enough, it offers a lot of doors for you to accidentally cluster@#$% everything.

At the end of the day, the best language is the one you know the best. Has nothing to do with "laziness" about learning other languages, it simply is about being experienced enough to have learned what not to do.

[Victoria Victrix]

Hey it could have been written in Assembler by the American Airlines reservation systems programmers.  With undocumented on-the-fly patches.

[dwturducken]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess there isn't an over-abundance of comment lines, either.

// The following code is a kludge, but any change will make the game unplayable.

[HarvesterOfEyes]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess there isn't an over-abundance of comment lines, either.

// The following code is a kludge, but any change will make the game unplayable.

That would actually surprise me.

...but then I'm used to having to debug code where the comments are so out-of-date that they are just as likely to be the opposite of the truth as truthful.

EDIT: spelling

[Septipheran]

I remember when Posi mentioned that the code would be too hard for anyone else to handle. Personally I think GuyPerfect and Codewalker would be up to the challenge...

[FatherXmas]

Honestly I've called such projects Software Archeology back when I was marketed as some hot shot young coder at the consulting company I first worked at out of college.  Being dumped into a project of poorly documented spaghetti code written by people no longer around to consult was something I use to relish.  Analysis, documenting and finally refactoring the code into something more manageable was always an interesting endeavor.

However the one of the last of such projects I did nearly broke me, which was to write in house diagnostic software to test a custom designed CCU (google AMD 2900 bitslice) which was bought from other company and it used an undocumented instruction set.  So first I had to take an AMD 2900 parts book, the schematics to the board and the hex dump of the normally installed software, the supposed source code listing used to generate that hex file and figure out the instruction set.  Then write a compiler and then write the diagnostics software.  (Yes the company I was working at didn't receive any development tools when they bought the product from the original owners/developers).

Fun times.  Last low level project I worked on.

[Kistulot]

All this talk of coding is making me frustrated that I keep running into brick walls whenever I try to learn. Stop trying to motivate me to pick up a new skill, writing is tricky enough!

[Surelle]

All this talk of coding is making me frustrated that I keep running into brick walls whenever I try to learn. Stop trying to motivate me to pick up a new skill, writing is tricky enough!

Here, try downloading the free trial of RPGMaker then!  http://www.rpgmakerweb.com/

It's only 2D, but there is no programming required.  I think the engine is based on Ruby, but it seems like a "Scratch on steroids" type program with a lot more customization options than Scratch.

They actually have a "buy one, get one free" special going on the boxed copies through the end of December, and they'll send you an $11 off coupon a couple days after you download the trial besides (I think the write-in code for the $11 off is "throw that ace down" or something like that).

Both my kids are really into programming languages, but I haven't the patience for it.  Still, I have this tiny idea that I originally wanted to make in the Neverwinter Nights toolset for a mini-game about the story of the real Saint Nicholas.  I'm going to try this RPGMaker program, and I figure if I work on it here and there all year, it might be ready by next Christmas time.   

[Ceremonius]

Here, try downloading the free trial of RPGMaker then!  http://www.rpgmakerweb.com/

It's only 2D, but there is no programming required.  I think the engine is based on Ruby, but it seems like a "Scratch on steroids" type program with a lot more customization options than Scratch.

They actually have a "buy one, get one free" special going on the boxed copies through the end of December, and they'll send you an $11 off coupon a couple days after you download the trial besides (I think the write-in code for the $11 off is "throw that ace down" or something like that).

Both my kids are really into programming languages, but I haven't the patience for it.  Still, I have this tiny idea that I originally wanted to make in the Neverwinter Nights toolset for a mini-game about the story of the real Saint Nicholas.  I'm going to try this RPGMaker program, and I figure if I work on it here and there all year, it might be ready by next Christmas time.   

Uhm...just a year? As a single person? I know projects wich worked over 6 years on their end....with full teams . This is what it takes if you make everything custom. I own the RPGMaker VXAce and I just took a look into it. It is nothing where you get just started and also fast getting finished. The whole scripting stuff, if done correctly, will take you busy for ages . Actually every little bit not build in stuff will take ages Oo. It's pretty simple a learning by doing tool. You made your first game -> YAY I got knowledge to make a bigger game with more of this and that.
In the end you'll find yourself in a dark room composing some midi samples <- That's where I had enough^^.

[Perfidus]

http://www.codecademy.com/#!/exercises/0

There's a nice link to learn coding basics, too.

[dwturducken]

Both my kids are really into programming languages, but I haven't the patience for it.  Still, I have this tiny idea that I originally wanted to make in the Neverwinter Nights toolset for a mini-game about the story of the real Saint Nicholas.  I'm going to try this RPGMaker program, and I figure if I work on it here and there all year, it might be ready by next Christmas time.   

Man! I'd forgotten about the NWN tookit! Now I want to see if I can recreate the adventure that Leonard ran on last week's Big Bang Theory!

[johnrobey]

I was able to catch the last half of this, very cool that they played my Last ITF Ever video throughout the whole thing.

I thought that was awesome and very appropriate.   

[The Fifth Horseman]

All this talk of coding is making me frustrated that I keep running into brick walls whenever I try to learn. Stop trying to motivate me to pick up a new skill, writing is tricky enough!

If you're running into brick walls, try walking - slowly.
Most of the time the wall is there either because you overlooked the right solution or you're jumping in trying to create an overtly ambitious project. Start small, build your familiarity with the language and expand it as needed. You can always try asking for help here, if you need it.

[Mister Bison]

If you're running into brick walls, try walking - slowly.
Most of the time the wall is there either because you overlooked the right solution or you're jumping in trying to create an overtly ambitious project. Start small, build your familiarity with the language and expand it as needed. You can always try asking for help here, if you need it.

Another approach, is to "lurk moar". Look at open sources programs, and if possible, well-commented ones. If you can't learn the strings to make ropes, maybe imitating and assembling others' ropes will help you.

[Hyperstrike]

Hey it could have been written in Assembler by the American Airlines reservation systems programmers.  With undocumented on-the-fly patches.

Woman.  You have a dirty mind...   

[Starsman]

All this talk of coding is making me frustrated that I keep running into brick walls whenever I try to learn. Stop trying to motivate me to pick up a new skill, writing is tricky enough!

Programming is a lot  more fun when you see inmediate AND impressive results.

Tip: grab a free copy of Unity and start coding some 3D coolness stuf very easily. It will be a lot more fun than learning with boring command prompt text output.

Just... stay clear of the language they call "JavaScript" and stick to C#, use any online C# reference to guide you through.

[mikoroshi]

Programming is a lot  more fun when you see inmediate AND impressive results.

Tip: grab a free copy of Unity and start coding some 3D coolness stuf very easily. It will be a lot more fun than learning with boring command prompt text output.

Just... stay clear of the language they call "JavaScript" and stick to C#, use any online C# reference to guide you through.

My experience has shown most tutorials are written in Javascript for Unity :\

[Starsman]

My experience has shown most tutorials are written in Javascript for Unity :\

Most documentation in their site is in both languages, although they default show "Javascript." Btw, it's not actually javascript, not even javascript-like, its closer to Flash's Action Script from all I hear and internally referred to as UnityScript.

It tends to be best to start with C# because it's better, a bit more industry standard, and you get documentation for the raw language and .net frameworks from Microsoft (you don't get that for "JavaScript".)

Also this "JavaScript" does a lot of shortcuts and allows for a lot of bad practices that should be avoided. I made my first game in that language and saw myself being forced to port everything to C# later as I attempted to incorporate certain functionality and increase performance.

It IS a shame most their sample projects are actually available only in "JavaScript", though...

[houtex]

Hey it could have been written in Assembler by the American Airlines reservation systems programmers.  With undocumented on-the-fly patches.

Tangent:  I really REALLY miss Eaasy SABRE...

[Victoria Victrix]

Tangent:  I really REALLY miss Eaasy SABRE...

*head explodes*