Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here

[Little Green Frog]

I wasn't trying to start a flame war, but I can understand how it could be seen that way. I will try to be more sensitive.

[Starsman]

Please, calm down. What you said is true and I didn't at any point argue over that. But apparently that one sentence I posted draws attention like a shining disco ball, while the context is lost. So let me explain: I know Paragon was making money. There was profit and they had no reason to expect the closure. But in the eyes of NCsoft management this profit wasn't a good enough reason to withhold the execution. Which is true, because that's what happened. No conspiracy theory here.

I hope if I state it like that it would be a little bit less inflammable.

There ARE people out the that know exactly what happened. They cant talk openly because there are NDAs signed at all levels, but there are a few people that got some bits.

I am taking TonyV is trying to tell you: it has nothing to do with profits. No one was disappointed with the profits. No management, no anyone. The reason for cancelation has zero to do with profits at any level. The only thing you can say was "affected" by profits, is that the profits were not high enough to make it impossible to kill the game. But that is a factor that cant be used as an "issue". Basically, you can say the game is guilty of not having a bulletproof car to protect itself from that man in the corner looking out to kill it.

[Little Green Frog]

Kinda what I was trying to say all along.

[Starsman]

Kinda what I was trying to say all along.

Not what you were actually saying, though. You kept saying that maybe, management considered the game not worth sustaining because although profitable, it was just "meh profits" for the managers.

As TonyV said: the game was constantly surpassing everybody's expectations. Actually, maybe even making insane levels of money a week may not have saved it from whoever's whim got the game killed. After all, even Activision at one point decided they wanted to get rid of Blizzard. They had different reasons though, and different goals. They find themselves in an akward position. Blizzard is worth too much to just get rid off in any way.

[Little Green Frog]

Not what you were actually saying, though. You kept saying that maybe, management considered the game not worth sustaining because although profitable, it was just meh.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. Never said the game was meh. Would I even be here if I thought that? Instead I am saying that management considered the game not worth sustaining because although profitable, there was a reason more important than the profit. Then I ventured into speculative examples of what those reasons could be. I did that because I believe that in order for our movement to succeed, we really should understand as much about the closure as possible. Given how little data there is to extrapolate from, speculation is the only tool left.

[Electric-Knight]

I wasn't trying to start a flame war, but I can understand how it could be seen that way. I will try to be more sensitive.

No ire coming from me at all (nor do I think anyone was excited or anything by what you said before) and I'll say that I appreciate your response about this.

I just wanted to mention that the statement you made was pretty much the repeated mantra of some people that were repeatedly attacking the early Save CoH movement. So, I believe it has a bit of a special place in a lot of passionate hearts and minds. Especially since, at that time, we didn't have a lot of public quotes or accounts to point to in order to back up the beliefs that the finances were good.

To put it shortly, there is a good amount of history in the words you used, in case you didn't know, and that's why people will want to make extra clear about what is and isn't true regarding the financials.

Again, zero problem and I didn't take it as though you were implying anything more than what you said - "enough" is always the enormously important and highly subjective term... we can put Veruca Salt in the place of NCSoft and see that "enough" is too tall an order for reality, hehe.

All good!
 

[Starsman]

Never said the game was meh.

Profits. In the face of managers. Not the game.

Updated post for clarity.

[Victoria Victrix]

Just as an FYI.

NCSoft has been reported to the FBI  for suspicion of money laundering through its in-store games.  Said suspicion was verified on the Korean side by the reporter from the Korean Times.

Will anything come of this?  I don't know.

I do know that suddenly deleting customer accounts for CoH as soon as the game was officially shut down, and suddenly announcing the creation of a holding company for western interests, doesn't do anything to alleviate suspicion.

[Ceremonius]

Just as an FYI.

NCSoft has been reported to the FBI  for suspicion of money laundering through its in-store games.  Said suspicion was verified on the Korean side by the reporter from the Korean Times.

Will anything come of this?  I don't know.

I do know that suddenly deleting customer accounts for CoH as soon as the game was officially shut down, and suddenly announcing the creation of a holding company for western interests, doesn't do anything to alleviate suspicion.

Could I get the source of this? Would like to repost this for the german audience in our FB channel

[Victoria Victrix]

Source is myself.  I got some inside information on how the store actually worked, which made it blindingly clear that it was trivial to use it for money laundering, with no way for the operators of individual games to be aware of the fact.  I posited this as possible to a law expert who said it was reportable.  I asked the Korean Times reporter if there had been any suspicion of this in Korea, and he corroborated my suspicion, said other game companies had been caught doing the same thing, said that NCSoft had been suspected of this (and bribing officials) for some time but no proof had turned up yet.  After consulting with Rae, she agreed it was justified and she arranged to notify the FBI, since she is a journalist and would likely be taken more seriously than some pinheaded fantasy writer.

[Ceremonius]

Source is myself.  I got some inside information on how the store actually worked, which made it blindingly clear that it was trivial to use it for money laundering, with no way for the operators of individual games to be aware of the fact.  I posited this as possible to a law expert who said it was reportable.  I asked the Korean Times reporter if there had been any suspicion of this in Korea, and he corroborated my suspicion, said other game companies had been caught doing the same thing, said that NCSoft had been suspected of this (and bribing officials) for some time but no proof had turned up yet.  After consulting with Rae, she agreed it was justified and she arranged to notify the FBI, since she is a journalist and would likely be taken more seriously than some pinheaded fantasy writer.

Grabed it, translated it, made a little fine post about it, with reference to your posts . Thanks in advance

[Starsman]

Source is myself.  I got some inside information on how the store actually worked, which made it blindingly clear that it was trivial to use it for money laundering, with no way for the operators of individual games to be aware of the fact.  I posited this as possible to a law expert who said it was reportable.  I asked the Korean Times reporter if there had been any suspicion of this in Korea, and he corroborated my suspicion, said other game companies had been caught doing the same thing, said that NCSoft had been suspected of this (and bribing officials) for some time but no proof had turned up yet.  After consulting with Rae, she agreed it was justified and she arranged to notify the FBI, since she is a journalist and would likely be taken more seriously than some pinheaded fantasy writer.

OK... this is a very serious topic... are you saying it WAS possible to do money laundering, and that such a possibility on itself is illegal? Or are you saying it likely was happening?

[General Idiot]

I think she's saying it was possible, which if the store worked as I've read in other threads here it likely was. I'm not sure just the possibility is actually illegal, though. You'd probably have to prove they actually did it, but someone with more knowledge of US and Korean law would have a better idea than me.

[Terwyn]

I believe she is saying that the fact that the system was set up in such a way to make it exceedingly simple to use for illegal purposes while maintaining a shroud of [false] plausible deniability on the side of the developers certainly *would* be worth marking for investigation.

After all, if, as I presume from information shared here and elsewhere, the system is set up in such a way that most of the issues with the store and its operations fell as the responsibility of the developing studio and not NCSoft, NCSoft would have a shield of companies which appear to be far more liable for the abuse of the system than it would seem to be itself.

Now, add in the difference between how the store functioned in City of Heroes and how it functions in other NCSoft games, there is a troubling implication that arises which may shed a great deal of light into the nature of the cause of the shut down.

I may well be wrong, but I think it is worth further research on my part.

[Victoria Victrix]

The reporter for the Korean times told me it was likely it was happening.

Money laundering is illegal. 

By knowing how the store works, it becomes obvious that it is trivial to launder money through the NCSoft stores.

Here is how money laundering would take place.

Real money, for the purposes of this explanation, will be called "money."  The ingame currency bought with real money, for the purposes of this explanation, will be called "points," although each NCSoft game has a different name for it.

F2P account is created.  F2P account buys, with money, a large number of points, with a prepaid debit card.  At this point only the store knows what account the points were purchased by and what game they were purchased in.

Store passes NCSoft its share.  At this point, only the store knows what game the points were purchased in, although NCSoft knows what account they were purchased by.

F2P account is canceled.

Points are canceled without refund, leaving no record of what game they were purchased in.

Account is canceled and cleared by NCSoft (as we saw when accounts were canceled during the shutdown) leaving no record of what was purchased in the in-game store.

NCSoft and the store now have the money, with no record of where it came from or from whom.

Money is now laundered.  The game in which the points were purchased has gotten no credit for the purchase.

[Starsman]

OK... call me naive or ignorant, but other than forgery or drug traffic... what kind of illegal money would they pursue to launder?

Also... I did see something along the line you just listed... I'm a DBA... i been working in this field for quite a long time. In public companies, it has always been my understanding, that every single bit of information has to be retained for at least 7 years. If they were deleting transaction data along with accounts... that would be troublesome even if there was no laundering involved!

[golemjoe]

The reporter for the Korean times told me it was likely it was happening.

Money laundering is illegal. 

By knowing how the store works, it becomes obvious that it is trivial to launder money through the NCSoft stores.

Here is how money laundering would take place.

Real money, for the purposes of this explanation, will be called "money."  The ingame currency bought with real money, for the purposes of this explanation, will be called "points," although each NCSoft game has a different name for it.

F2P account is created.  F2P account buys, with money, a large number of points, with a prepaid debit card.  At this point only the store knows what account the points were purchased by and what game they were purchased in.

Store passes NCSoft its share.  At this point, only the store knows what game the points were purchased in, although NCSoft knows what account they were purchased by.

F2P account is canceled.

Points are canceled without refund, leaving no record of what game they were purchased in.

Account is canceled and cleared by NCSoft (as we saw when accounts were canceled during the shutdown) leaving no record of what was purchased in the in-game store.

NCSoft and the store now have the money, with no record of where it came from or from whom.

Money is now laundered.  The game in which the points were purchased has gotten no credit for the purchase.

It does make me wonder now if all of our account information and servers it lives on will be tied up in court for the new 7 years. 
Not that that's a reason to ignore the call of Justice.. but would be sad if it happens.

[Victoria Victrix]

OK... call me naive or ignorant, but other than forgery or drug traffic... what kind of illegal money would they pursue to launder?

Also... I did see something along the line you just listed... I'm a DBA... i been working in this field for quite a long time. In public companies, it has always been my understanding, that every single bit of information has to be retained for at least 7 years. If they were deleting transaction data along with accounts... that would be troublesome even if there was no laundering involved!

Virtually anything that comes from illegal sources.  That is the point of laundering money; it's usually done at the behest of organized crime.  The company that is facilitating the laundering then passes it back, minus the share they get for doing the laundering, to the original source via a number of ways, including "investing" in front companies.

[Kistulot]

Money laundering is also one of those things treated very, very seriously.

So, fingers crossed this somehow benefits us.

Also, I have resisted making a "There's a bear with you?" pun this entire thread, and I couldn't hold it back any longer.

[Ceremonius]

Money laundering is also one of those things treated very, very seriously.

So, fingers crossed this somehow benefits us.

Also, I have resisted making a "There's a bear with you?" pun this entire thread, and I couldn't hold it back any longer.

As long as nc doesn't sinks and takes everything to it's death.
Cleverness would be to sell the IPs they have in the backyard and safe the money for a company relaunch after the whole affair