Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion  (Read 8367 times)

Mental Maden

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2013, 03:48:16 PM »
Without getting too spoilery for you the subject of Catlyn is (like most things ASOIAF) layered and complicated.  You can easily get an unlikeable vibe from her early on, especiallly (and I'll assume this is where you are going) regarding her relationship to Jon Snow.  I think the show plays it up a bit stronger because we don't have the luxury of a lot of the backstory and character thoughts that you get from the book, so the show has to spell it out quickly and directly.

To put it bluntly Jon is an open wound that Catlyn has had to live with for 15 years.  The very beginnings of their marriage was strained enough as they got to know each other, only to have Ned go to war and come home with a bastard son.  But you should start feeling a little more sympathy for her as the book progresses, but eventually most people end up on one side of the Cat debate or the other.

Profit

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2013, 07:05:09 PM »
No, no, I get the open wound part. The part that rubs me the wrong way is the lack of subtlety on Lady Catelyns part.

Tenzhi

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2013, 08:32:57 PM »
Personally, I have no sympathy for her ridiculous behaviour towards Jon.  She's essentially being a stereotypical wicked step-mother for no good reason.  It's not like Ned brought the mistress home.  If there's an "open wound" it's from a knife she's twisting in her own gut.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Aggelakis

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2013, 09:41:40 PM »
I never have liked Lady Cat very much at all. I think she is weak and verging on pathetic. And I think she made Sansa what she is: even more weak and pathetic. (I don't like Sansa AT ALL.) It takes something absolutely catastrophic for Cat to grow a pair.
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Mental Maden

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2013, 10:16:38 PM »
No, no, I get the open wound part. The part that rubs me the wrong way is the lack of subtlety on Lady Catelyns part.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing her behavior.  She will in the future do things to either strengthen your feelings or lessen them.  Seeing the two opinions already stated, you can see you aren't alone in your assessment.  Me, I'm probably in a more neutral position regarding her.  I will not deny she is horrible to Jon.  To be fair, when all is said and done, you can pretty much find something about every character in ASOIAF (with very few exceptions) that is horrible.

Mental Maden

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2013, 03:19:37 PM »
And I think she made Sansa what she is: even more weak and pathetic. (I don't like Sansa AT ALL.)

Since Profit brought up this topic I'll leave it spoiler free (or as close as possible).


At the risk of sounding like a Cat apologist I'm going to disagree a bit with this.  I think Sansa is more a product of the Westeros society and her place as a daughter of a Lord of one of the great houses.  I don't think she acts any different than most of the "pretty" daughters of noble houses.  She only seems more problematic because her sister is Arya who is obviously the exception to the rule.  Cat is the one most opposed to the move to King's Landing and she isn't thrilled with the notion of the marriage of Joffrey and Sansa.  I think if anything it's Ned that is greatly to blame for much of Sansa's "decisions" later in the book.  His stance on honor and Sansa's trust in others to be honorable is what leads her down the path she ends up on.  It's Ned's stance on honor that lead's him to accept the position as Robert's Hand and the marriage of their children. Now I don't blame Ned whole cloth, but I think there is more blame to be passed around and I'm not so sure in this instance it's really Cat's fault.

Septipheran

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2013, 05:08:46 AM »
I never have liked Lady Cat very much at all. I think she is weak and verging on pathetic. And I think she made Sansa what she is: even more weak and pathetic. (I don't like Sansa AT ALL.) It takes something absolutely catastrophic for Cat to grow a pair.

First of all, so stoked for season 3 of GOT. Second, I don't like Cat at all. She is the biggest fail character in the novels. She is basically responsible for every single horrible thing that happens to her family. I don't dislike Sansa because she's only a kid- I think Arya just sets the bar really high in terms of being an awesome person, which inevitably leads people to judge Sansa according to that measuring stick. I like to think that Sansa will have redeeming qualities as she gets older and finds her voice. Not everyone can be born awesome, especially in a universe defined by human imperfection and nuance.

Profit

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2013, 05:49:36 AM »
Still in the first book. Still don't like Catelyn. Hate the Queen as much as ever, just due to having Ned put down Lady. I could overlook lots, but not that. And I knew it was coming.

Danerys is probably my favorite character. She was in the show as well. I'm torn between having Jon or Robb conquer the realm, or Danerys return and take it. Haven't reached the part in the book where Khal Drogo kills Viserys yet, but I'm drooling for it. I am 220 pages in roughly, and Danerys has just humilated Visery by taking his horse.

Tenzhi

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2013, 06:21:57 AM »
Hate the Queen as much as ever, just due to having Ned put down Lady. I could overlook lots, but not that. And I knew it was coming.

Yeah, that was kind of a "kick the dog" moment, there.  I mean, the attempted murder of a child was evil, too, but at least there was a bit more reason in it.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Profit

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2013, 11:32:00 PM »
I just read that a few days ago, but I don't recall the queen ordering Jaime to attempt to kill Bran. That was his solution to Bran seeing them wasn't it?

Septipheran

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2013, 11:43:07 PM »
I just read that a few days ago, but I don't recall the queen ordering Jaime to attempt to kill Bran. That was his solution to Bran seeing them wasn't it?

That was Jaime. There was really no time to conspire since it was sort of creative, on the spot problem solving lol. For what it's worth though, Jaime is my favorite character in the entire series. Give him some time and I think you'll find yourself really liking him eventually.

Mental Maden

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2013, 12:07:41 AM »
That was Jaime. There was really no time to conspire since it was sort of creative, on the spot problem solving lol. For what it's worth though, Jaime is my favorite character in the entire series. Give him some time and I think you'll find yourself really liking him eventually.

She didn't tell him to do it, but she didn't mind one bit.  Cersei is horrible.

Septipheran

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2013, 12:12:22 AM »
She didn't tell him to do it, but she didn't mind one bit.  Cersei is horrible.

Yeah... But karma and all that. It seems like there are people here who haven't read all the books so I don't want to say more than that.  :P

Profit

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2013, 12:53:42 AM »
I haven't read the books but I did see the first two seasons. So, you can kinda gauge where I am and what I know. In th book Tyrion is about to leave the wall, maybe a hair farther.

Septipheran

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2013, 01:28:45 AM »
I haven't read the books but I did see the first two seasons. So, you can kinda gauge where I am and what I know. In th book Tyrion is about to leave the wall, maybe a hair farther.

Suffice it to say that Cersei "gets what's coming" to her. :)

Profit

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2013, 08:19:48 PM »
I will figure Tyrion out... I. Will. LoL.

Tenzhi

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2013, 04:39:03 AM »
I will figure Tyrion out... I. Will. LoL.

He's the main protagonist in my eyes.  When (normally I'd say "if", but it seems like *everyone* is going to die in this series) he dies, so likely will my interest in the story.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

antarcticaa

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2013, 02:53:06 AM »
He's the main protagonist in my eyes.  When (normally I'd say "if", but it seems like *everyone* is going to die in this series) he dies, so likely will my interest in the story.

Read the books, for the love of Pete!  There's no way even a well-produced series like HBO's GoT can capture all the nuances and storylines going on in these books.  G.R.R. Martin has no qualms about killing off characters and those who continue in the series evolve in the most interesting ways.  Just wish he had an editor.  If only someone would cut the verbage down a bit, like the way Tom Clancy needs to be edited as well.  Tighter storylines would be great in a world so massive as Westeros.  You'd be surprised with the developments, for certain. 

Make mine Tyrion.  And Arya.

Tenzhi

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2013, 05:24:00 AM »
Read the books, for the love of Pete!

I have and am (Dance of Dragons is proving to be the second longest time it has taken me to finish a book I started - the first place going to Silmarillion at about the 20 year mark).  I've barely seen any of the HBO series.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Profit

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire (All Book Spoilers) Discussion
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2013, 06:12:47 PM »
GAH. for having been such a great warrior and friend, Robert Baratheon is one of the stupidest people.

Sigh.