Community-Built COH Style MMORPG

[Perfidus]

My assumption was that Aaron and his team decided to put the others on hold to do Valiance Online, since he knows we've got a built in fanbase chomping at the bit.

I may be wrong though, and maybe they are trying for three at once.

[DarkCurrent]

AG,

Is the fundraising bar up to date on the Valiance homepage (http://valiance.shogn.net/)?  There are only 8 days left for your targeted goal and you're only 1/5 the way there.  I was out of town for a week and expected it to be higher considering this community raised that much in a day to send the old devs to dinner when they got fired.  If it is that number, I got to ask why people here aren't showing the money yet.  The pre-alpha is looking good and the updates are accelerating the game forward by leaps and bounds. 

[Aviticus Gladius]

@Tahquitz, that is a great point. To clear the air, Legend of Etherell and Valiance Online both share a parallel development structure. As I add features to Legends of Etherell, I import those elements into Valiance and the same goes for Valiance elements that fit the realm of Legends of Etherell. Both teams are also still in full development cycles (no delays), and both are excelling at a respectable rate given that neither is funded. My company is also responsible for 5 projects in development, each with their own teams and structural hierarchies. The Elite Units team reached the point in when they could resume full control over project development, yet it still remains property of SilverHelm Studios. Both Elite Units and Outlasting the Dead, another game being developed by a team within the SilverHelm collective, now have publishers that are investing in the completion of those titles. I have no hands-on involvement or executive authority over development of these titles. Lastly another team of developers are working on a horror title that is due to appear on SHOGN in 3 months; once again my involvement is limited to business relations alone. My dream has always been to develop a superhero themed MMO and a fantasy themed MMO, both that I enjoy playing. City of Heroes was to me the best a superhero MMO could ever be, so there was no need to even think about another.

With it gone, I've be left with and emptiness, not to mention missing it for the sentimental value it has to me. So with our parallel development system, it's really no different than programming a single game aside from the minimal amount of time it takes to remove and/or apply new code across projects. The designers, writers, artists, and composers of the different projects are doing vastly equivalent to that of their counter-parts on the opposite development team, so really nothing "enormous" is weighing on me. With community managers recently taking over management of sites, social elements, and community involvement for both projects and coders preparing to join Valiance, things are slowly working out exactly as I planned. I just want to be a part of the Valiance experience, I've said that from the beginning. I'm doing what I can to see the team to a great start, and then I'm happy to just be a member of the community; often helping with code and sound effects as need. Last week we brought on Sheri Graner Ray, an ex Sony Online Entertainment employer that has overseen management and operations of several of their MMO projects including Star Wars: Galaxies. We also brought on a few artist that currently work contractually for DC Comics, Marvel Comics, and Dark Horse Comics on board to help with the style and appearance of the game. The projects Senior Writer is also an established author with a few publications to his name. So I'm confident that the Valiance team can hold their own. I'll always support it and do what I can, but I'd never do anything to compromise anything I love. Extending myself too much would do nothing good for either project, so I'm very aware of how I'm managing my time. As you suggested, please continue to observe the project, and watch how progress plays out. Thanks for your support and inquiries.


@Perfidus, thanks for jumping in there and trying to sure your thoughts and opinions.

@Dark Current, we have an incentive going, basically if we meet our funding target of 6,000 US Dollars, we'll enable a special feature of the game that we won't if we don't reach our deadline. This campaign's incentive is the enabling of the Day/Night cycle for the game world. Next campaign, we'll have the community share incentives and vote on the incentives they like the most. Right now, it looks like we won't make it, but we have invested the current acquired sum towards a massive amount of development and assets, so it's been incredibly valuable to the product. We'll keep powering along, things are shaping up well, and I believe once the team releases this first major release, people will really see the products potential and start to gather together to share more information about the game. Thanks for your support, I look forward to seeing you in the city.

[Lucretia MacEvil]

Next campaign, we'll have the community share incentives and vote on the incentives they like the most.

Enabling flight will probably be high on that list, methinks.

[Defcon Kid]

Mm... just been told about this 3rd Project... am I STILL the only one that thinks that more than a single project is wrong? that everybody should put differences (either personal or creative ones) aside and focus on getting the best possible project, instead of wasting effort and resources creating 3 different games at the same time? 

TBH, I was doubting on crowfunding TPP when it was 1 out of 2 projects, but now there's 3, it makes me rethink the whole thing because I feel my bucks can be given for nothing 

[JaguarX]

Mm... just been told about this 3rd Project... am I STILL the only one that thinks that more than a single project is wrong? that everybody should put differences (either personal or creative ones) aside and focus on getting the best possible project, instead of wasting effort and resources creating 3 different games at the same time? 

TBH, I was doubting on crowfunding TPP when it was 1 out of 2 projects, but now there's 3, it makes me rethink the whole thing because I feel my bucks can be given for nothing 

Color or Colour.

I would have preferred one project, but I can see the good in three. Of course there is risk with either way.

With one project, it ends up no go for what ever reason whether people think it's not true to COX spirit or other reasons, then what? Lot of time wasted and still no game.

Three projects, one is bound to get it right and more choices for people to find maybe what they look for in spiritual successor.

Upside for one-One single project to focus on and people could put money to it if they see fit.

DOwnside for three- some people want to support all three but money that could have went to one say $1000 is spit three ways now that is $333, with a lost dollar in there, each.


With thousands of fantasy games, and more on the way, three games of the super hero genre might be a good thing. Or it might be a bad thing in the end.

Sometimes people just cant get along and like the common saying in the COX community, "don't like it? Then leave and make your own." And thus one took up on that offer ad did just that. In order to settle the differences, first that mindset would have to be banished. Nothing is perfect and everything isn't going to be all praise, one agreement. And just because the point is different even not the popular view doesn't mean it's invalid nor the person should not speak on it and just walk if they don't like it. But if that mindset continues, then the community will continue to splinter and those splinters will splinter then the term community will be just another term in the dictionary that no longer applies.

Granted though, it's gotten a lot better since the start, a whole lot better in that regards but still needs a bit polish on taking criticism especially from potential future customers that may or may not be here on this forum. All criticism isn't trolling contrary to COX community popular belief if they are not here in Cohtitan.

There is going to be no special favors out there or people in mass jumping on board. The test of fire will be the same that all games that go through and people will be skeptical just as they are with other games especially indie games, they will ask questions, they will voice concerns, they will give opinion just as many players here been giving their opinion on other games.  Although most of the "troll title" slinging didn't come from the TPP devs themselves in that last article about kickstarter plan, but just as some people judge WoW by their community and CO by the community, some people of this community didn't help with the image and might have prematurely made up some people's mind by basically suggesting they have no right to ask questions and should either give money or don't. Very condescending and patronizing. And they might as well not give. I wouldn't and probably many here wouldn't either if they was on the receiving end.

Although that seem to be the habit in the way that people talk to people out there sometimes.  They forget that most gamers don't know us anymore than any other gamer group or indie game maker. Just like people even here say they dont play WoW because the attitude of the players, the same rules apply to the upcoming game and their community. Unlike WoW though those games are not established yet so the least we as a community can do is put the best foot forward if we want this to work because if it fails, we cant blame NCSOFT, cant blame "trollers", cant blame some random scapegoat, cant blame Google or Disney or Facebook or Twitter, or My Little Pony.  This is up to us to make it either succeed or think we are high and mighty and "how dare anyone question us" and fail.


With three games, they may say screw those people and TPP but they have two more choices left. If it was just one, then that is less players on top of the ones that may feel that TPP didn't capture the true essence of what makes COX to that particular player. They say this is different player ran and care about the customer and gamers. Show them. And talking to those that ask questions or disagree or point something out, or think something could be done better in a condencending way or tone or calling them troll is no better of an action than how corporations already treat people.

As I quoted not long ago. "why would I trade one tyrant 3,000 miles away for 3,000 tyrants 1 mile away?"

[Ohioknight]

I THINK I agree with you Jag... but jeeze, break up the text blocks or review or something!   That last block's awfully hard to get meaning out of

[JaguarX]

I THINK I agree with you Jag... but jeeze, break up the text blocks or review or something!   That last block's awfully hard to get meaning out of

sorry. There is supposed to be a space there. Been having issues with the site. Been lagging about two or three sentences behind lately. Only on this site so far.
Working on it. I'm used to reading regulations and codes and fine print. I must remember that not everyone is used to that format in single space size 10-12

[Thunder Glove]

All three are going in slightly different directions.  I'm hoping for all three of them to succeed, but they're all doing things I don't like.

TPP might be trying to do too much too soon (72 combinations of primary, secondary, and "specialty" abilities right off the bat, and that's not even counting actual power sets and power pools), rather than starting slowly and adding things in later, and similarly ambitious "experimental" ideas for things like pet sets.  Of course, their ambition is a strength as well, as they're trying to surpass CoH rather than just duplicate it, which is a laudable goal, and it's possible they're not actually going to implement all 72 combinations right off the bat, which should simplify matters in getting the game actually out there.

HaV just may have the opposite problem, may be veering too close to copyright infractions by trying to copy CoH too closely (which I personally like, but worry about from a legal perspective) - and some of the the "original" NPCs look dangerously familiar, too (particularly Princess Zandra, who... uh, yeah).  But, again, that attempt to hew close to its inspiration (including outright saying it'll have the system requirements as CoH, which is very important to me) is also its biggest strength, with the promise of a familiar homey game and not having to learn all new mechanics, as long as it doesn't cause NCSoft (and/or DC comics) barreling down on it.

And then VO is a wildcard.  It's from actual professional programmers, but ones who don't really have anything to show for all their previous work, and, since they came out of nowhere, I don't know how dedicated they are to the CoH community or how much knowledge they really have of CoH itself (some of those early comments about all characters having a Dodge stat, for example, or a recent topic on their forums about diminishing returns for buffs).  Since they're directly copying CoH's classes, they also might have some copyright issues.  But they're also the furthest along, thanks to using their own engine and assets from a previously-in-progress fantasy MMO, with a playable early alpha (with Windows and Mac clients!) and two archetypes working (though with only one powerset each), and they've worked on it for months since that early alpha was released.  They may easily beat the other two to market.

I'm still rooting for all three, of course (and I've even offered my services to TPP - I can't run HaV's development kit on this old machine, and VO doesn't seem to need the help).  I miss CoH more and more every day and, if I can't get the original back, I'm hoping that at least one of those three will fill the void.

[Ohioknight]

HaV just may have the opposite problem, may be veering too close to copyright infractions by trying to copy CoH too closely (which I personally like, but worry about from a legal perspective) - and some of the the "original" NPCs look dangerously familiar, too (particularly Princess Zandra, who... uh, yeah).

I promise you, Princess Zandra is not so close to WW that it would be an issue (your example illustration isn't even any of the standard implementations of WW) -- There are a dozen pastiches that are significantly closer to WW out there in comics, games, etc.  And although DC did shut down Captain Marvel in the 1950's as a violation of Superman's trademark/copyright, that ship has so long sailed it is now a sunken reef (Marvel's Hyperion, Astro City's Samaritan, Alan Moore's Supreme, Mutants and Mastermind's Centurion...  just for starters)

[dwturducken]

Let's take a step back and consider how we define a "win," here. I don't expect any of the games to be a gang-busters success. I hope they all do, but it's a big market, out there. We have the advantage of buzz, and it's actually building. Other games' official forums have threads about it, as an overall topic.

Even one of the three projects coming to fruition and being commercially self-sustaining is all it takes to show that it can be done. Maybe you can't support all three on the first round of "Kickstarters." I know I probably can't. I believe they are, whether by design or happenstance, staggering the first round, so that may mitigate the financial "pain" somewhat. I fully expect that some of us have "chosen sides" to some degree, and that's OK, too, in its own right.

More projects means more chances that one, at least, will work. That's all it takes.

[JaguarX]

Let's take a step back and consider how we define a "win," here. I don't expect any of the games to be a gang-busters success. I hope they all do, but it's a big market, out there. We have the advantage of buzz, and it's actually building. Other games' official forums have threads about it, as an overall topic.

Even one of the three projects coming to fruition and being commercially self-sustaining is all it takes to show that it can be done. Maybe you can't support all three on the first round of "Kickstarters." I know I probably can't. I believe they are, whether by design or happenstance, staggering the first round, so that may mitigate the financial "pain" somewhat. I fully expect that some of us have "chosen sides" to some degree, and that's OK, too, in its own right.

More projects means more chances that one, at least, will work. That's all it takes.

Yup but a basketball game could be won in theory with a score of 1.

Eventually the fanfare of activism and getting back at "the man" will wear off and we'll have "a game". If it was aimed to be bare minimum only to show that crowd of players can merely build a game, it will show in the craftmanship and not good for long run even if the code is publically released. While some publically released code have been picked up there are thousands if not millions of game codes that are never picked up even though it's free because it was viewed as a mediocre game that is not even worth the bother of dealing with.

Large corporates already know people can build games. They hire people to do just that.

Yes, merely getting the game out there is success, great success. But should strive for more  if the opportunity is there. Player made games come and go by the dozens each day. Some with major press release and then fade into memory when the chips are down and it dont deliver. One of Corporate's major tools to get people to play their game is that they have people believeing they have the funding and the know how to build "epic" games  with the budget to support it although in many cases that is true and nto true. True they have the budget untrue in that they sometimes dont use their money for some games. Just remember dotn stop at merely getting the game out and sitting back as success if there can be more. Then that would be a failure and another way corporate could say "See? They can build a game but they cant build a highly successful game like we can. The game world need us or most games would be small time barely make enough to feed the staff Ramen Noodles."

Me personally I eventually dont want to have to choose between corprate large many players game but dont understand the players and small player devs and the people that run the show actually play their own game but might see someone passing through, good luck meeting someone new, "uhm I'm stuck and they dont have tech support", small indie game.

Now if all the success can only go as far as relasing the game then yes, that is a major success but at the expense of it not showing what corporate and players didnt already know was feasible. If it can go further but it's stopped at merely releasing a game, then that would be utter failure. AKA, dont stop, go as far as possible even if it reach success. That was the folly of COX. Everybody thought everything was A-OK and didnt think anymore marketing or getting the word out was needed, until it was too late. Dont make the same mistake twice. Even with success, want and strive for more success.

A person could be satisfied with a min wage job sweeping floors. And if that is the extent of their desire then they have achieved success greatly. If they can and want more but stop at min wage job then they are failure. Each choice is still a slave to cause and effect, actions and consequences.

And this goes for all three projects.

[downix]

All three are going in slightly different directions.  I'm hoping for all three of them to succeed, but they're all doing things I don't like.

TPP might be trying to do too much too soon (72 combinations of primary, secondary, and "specialty" abilities right off the bat, and that's not even counting actual power sets and power pools), rather than starting slowly and adding things in later, and similarly ambitious "experimental" ideas for things like pet sets.  Of course, their ambition is a strength as well, as they're trying to surpass CoH rather than just duplicate it, which is a laudable goal, and it's possible they're not actually going to implement all 72 combinations right off the bat, which should simplify matters in getting the game actually out there.

Actually, our initial target is for 6 initially, and rolling out the others over time. But, instead of having additional being afterthoughts, we're designing the system *now* to allow for these additions *later*.

[cybermitheral]

Im sure most people would think that by combining all 3 project into a single one would increase the chance of a spiritual successor being born but when you have 3 distinct view points it means that either:
A) people from at least 2 view points have to change their view
B) all 3 review each aspect and how the aspects interact and come to an agreement on which aspect to use from each of the offerings

I am sure these have already been tried and by all parties unwillingness to change their view (to the level where people didnt leave) we are were we are.

[Aviticus Gladius]

Sorry I haven't been more active here everyone. I've been really focused on the game build itself. If you weren't aware, we had our third public release yesterday. This one is a lot more polished, and much more visually appealing than the 30th release. Here is a link to the latest builds:

http://valiance.shogn.net/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=11&id=190&Itemid=646

[saipaman]

I gave it a try.  Very interesting.   The first character I created kept appearing under the city.  The second one worked okay.  The mechanism behind melee attacks is certainly different.