Yet another Massively article telling us to Get Over It!

[Peregrine Falcon]

I apologize if this has already been posted. I did search, but admittedly not in depth.

Anyway, Massively has yet another article whose message is: City of Heroes players need to get over it already.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/07/the-soapbox-your-mmo-is-going-to-die-and-thats-ok/

Now the author doesn't come right out and say: 'This is directed at the City of Heroes community', but between the very first pic being a CoH screenshot, and some of the lines at the end of the article, it's pretty obvious that it's not so subtly directed at us.

I was finally able to sign up for an account at Massively, so that I can comment on these articles. If you haven't already, then maybe you would like to make a comment and let Massively know just how you feel about their continuing series of pro-NCSoft 'get over it' articles.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Oh look at that. Someone just handed the 'get-out-of-blame-free' card to the tyrannical key-holders of the MMO industry.

I guess fighting to keep a game alive is SO last year. Time to get back to arse-kissing big business.

The author is pretty much trying to play god with this 'Death exists so you can appreciate life,' philosophy.

"The moments are somehow deeper, denser, because we quite literally can never go back. There's nothing wrong with sharing a beautiful moment and allowing it to pass into the ether." Umm... moments DO never come again, whether or not a game is shut down. Does Mike think it takes wanton destruction to keep society out of a Groundhog Day time loop?

[Codewalker]

Meh, I said the only thing I need to say to that article.

"No."

It's an opinion piece, and I disagree with the author's opinion. I'm not going to waste my time fighting in the comments or trying to convince people who don't care.

We've got stuff to do.

[eabrace]

It seems to me that it's probably hard for someone who spends their time bouncing from game to game to game to game to comprehend why we're so pissed.  And while I can't speak specifically regarding the reviewer that wrote this piece, I suspect most game reviewers - by the nature of their job alone - spend a whole lot of their gaming time doing exactly that.  You just aren't likely to really form attachments to a game or become a part of its community if you keep moving around.  Sure, as with moving around a lot as a kid, you might find new friends in each game more quickly, but you probably also learn to move on and forget most (if not all) of those people just as easily when you move to the next game.

On the other hand, I can literally count the number of games I've spent a significant amount of time in since I started playing CoH in 2004 on one hand.  I've tried quite a few games, but they didn't hold my interest and certainly didn't prove worthy of a monthly investment of my cash.  And I never left CoH to try another game, I only played CoH a few less hours during the week (down to around 75% of my time spent playing games at it's lowest point.)  The depth of my attachment to CoH simply can't be comprehended by someone who didn't spend damned near every hour of their gaming time for years at a time playing the same game and interacting with the same people.  They don't get the comfortable familiarity of logging in and seeing the same group of player names in global chat channels that they've been seeing for years.

I've spent more time interacting with some people in CoH than I spent with my best friends in college - and I still get together with those guys to catch up once a year and catch a couple of hockey games back on campus.  I'd be just as pissed if the university up and nixed the hockey team and told us we'd have to go see basketball games instead because ticket sales were still turning a profit, but it wasn't as big as they wanted it to be.

[FlyingCarcass]

I hate to sound cynical, but I think the reason Massively wants folks to "Get over" the untimely death of CoH (and other MMOs) is because they'd like folks to get interested in other MMOs. After all, live MMOs produce more news to write about and therefore more opportunities to attract visitors to their site and all its lovely advertisements.

[JaguarX]

I hate to sound cynical, but I think the reason Massively wants folks to "Get over" the untimely death of CoH (and other MMOs) is because they'd like folks to get interested in other MMOs. After all, live MMOs produce more news to write about and therefore more opportunities to attract visitors to their site and all its lovely advertisements.

hmmm. that is true. In the "NOW NOW NOW" and "Hey a new game!" two weeks later "Bah this game is old s dirt. I want something new!" and repeat process era of society, new games attract more attention. More attention attracts ads, more ads more money. Plus any news source dont want to look like they are stuck in theo ld talking about what many gamers in this era view as old news, old game, and then they will be viewed as outdated, which means less people, less ads, less money.

Although I wish neutral straight down the line game articles were the norm meaning no aerticles that are for one side and another for the other side just pure SUBTSTANTIATED aka no rumors, he said she said, or I heard it was this amount of money nonsense, just pure unadulterated facts. But then again that article and I think the last one is in the opinion section and have more leway with opinion of things new and old. And like anything, everyone have one and not all will fall in line with everyone view. It's life. Sometimes opinion articles will be in favor of the movement and eventually some will be the move on type. Opinion. If you ask three billion people their opinion on something, there will be 3 billion variations depending on how they view it, understand it, past experience with the subject and sometimes lack of experience of the subject, personality, exposure, and how they view the words and the meaning and tone of the words, sometimes mood at the moment, and sometimes what other people around them think sad to say. Some opinions will be relatively the same others will not. None is better than the other just different, and sometimes if the opinion is formed around misinformation, wrong facts, or substantiated stuff a person opinion may change but if that opinion is done on their perception, feelings, and views of it, then beating over the head telling them they are wrong and need to adopt the opinion that the beater thinks is right, will not change their mind. In fact it probably will give them more resolve in their opinion.

A lot of animosity happens when people dont wish to understand where the other one is coming afrom and forget that they havent walked in your (not meaning you in particular in general) shoes, or  seen or been through or have the same brain as you (unless the Widow Mind link is real and true.). So of course they will se stuff different. It's only natural. As Metallica said I think "If you can understand the me then I can understand the you." Apply this and people will be surprised how easy conversations about differing opinions go but going in there guns blazing wont help nothing but widen the gap.
 
Hell, even my opinions here probably have some people thinking my brain is on too much  catnip.  But day to day articles, yeah usually it have to be up to date stuff. 

[FatherXmas]

I don't think it's purpose was to be a shut up and move on already post but a reminder that MMOs are a different beast, not like PC games in general.  Those rules, don't apply here.  With an MMO your ability to play is not controlled entirely by you, but by the publisher.

The article is simply tossing a bucket of cold water on players of existing MMOs to get their attention and tell them they need to prepare to come to grips when this happens.  Nothing is forever.  You are most likely not be able to play WoW 20 years from now.  With the shear number of MMOs available out there it's only time until the great MMO crash will come, when publishers and developers realize that MMOs aren't the rich vein of gold they might have been in the earlier era of Everquest, RuneScape or soon after WoW came out.  There is going to be a pull back so be prepared.

Then the article goes on an attempt to soften the blow by pointing out that game death isn't entirely a bad thing.  I always wondered if MMOs affect PC game purchases, that they affect overall PC game sales as more people focus on their MMO of choice, forgoing other games.  Personally I know that CoH became an almost exclusive game for years where before I would buy 6-9 games a year.  For instance there was a time where their wasn't a turn based or real time strategy game I wouldn't buy.  That habit went away in the first 5 years of CoH.  Only near the end did I start buying box sets of the games I ignored for all those years.  So an MMO closure, from a industry standpoint, may be a good thing as a whole.

Don't turn that article into what it's not.  It's not directed at us.  If anything we've highlight something that many, many others aren't even aware of, the emotional ties that an MMO, unlike any other PC game, can create.  Between online friends, your avatars, as something included in your day to day routine, it's sudden absence can leave a hole that we don't know how to fill and that is something all MMO players have to prepare for.  It's a warning to all that someday it may happen to them.

[Manga]

 ???If you read closely it's obviously written by the same kind of person that a year ago would have told us to stop playing that outdated game and pick up something new and shiny.

What they do not understand are people (like me) who are very choosy about what they play - who are unhappy and unsatisfied with the new shiny, and therefore stick to what they like until something that is just as satisfying comes along.  Sadly, nothing really has.

I do see that this writer's angle is that if we don't always hop to the new shiny we'll eventually be cut off, but that argument doesn't convince me.

[TimtheEnchanter]

It seems to me that it's probably hard for someone who spends their time bouncing from game to game to game to game to comprehend why we're so pissed.  And while I can't speak specifically regarding the reviewer that wrote this piece, I suspect most game reviewers - by the nature of their job alone - spend a whole lot of their gaming time doing exactly that.  You just aren't likely to really form attachments to a game or become a part of its community if you keep moving around.  Sure, as with moving around a lot as a kid, you might find new friends in each game more quickly, but you probably also learn to move on and forget most (if not all) of those people just as easily when you move to the next game.

That doesn't fit with what he's saying about the memories. You don't get sentimental about a gaming experience by playing it just long enough to give it a review. It takes joining guilds, making friends, and becoming a part of the sub-plot that has built itself by the players and their inter-personal dramas, politics, etc.

The article is simply tossing a bucket of cold water on players of existing MMOs to get their attention and tell them they need to prepare to come to grips when this happens.  Nothing is forever.  You are most likely not be able to play WoW 20 years from now.  With the shear number of MMOs available out there it's only time until the great MMO crash will come, when publishers and developers realize that MMOs aren't the rich vein of gold they might have been in the earlier era of Everquest, RuneScape or soon after WoW came out.  There is going to be a pull back so be prepared.

If that's the mindset that is generally being pushed now (and it sort of is, now that a few of the legendary MMO's have passed on), it doesn't bode well for the future of MMO's. I look at it similar to how people are in relationships. The first few, people put all of their heart and soul into it, but then after they've been dumped and burned enough times, they become closed off, taking a more robotic perspective on it. Love goes out the window, and gets replaced with something colder. You can do that, and you can date while burying emotions, but you lose a lot of the experience. The same is true with MMO's. If you don't let the game take you in, and you treat it as 'just a game,' you won't really become a part of the world. It's a contradiction, because that kind of immersion is one of the biggest draws of MMO's. Perhaps the industry will survive with that kind of mindset, but it won't be the kind of MMO that we've seen for the past 10 years. It would probably become more like the Korean model. An insanely boring grind to max your character, followed by a game that is about nothing but 'Multiplayer Deathmatches,' except that instead of fighting it out over LAN's or player-hosted servers, it comes with a monthly sub fee and pay-to-win loot items.

[Surelle]

What bothers me most about Massively lately is not that they think CoH is dead forever and that we should get over it and move on.

It's that they're still freaking Hit Whore Central when it comes to repeatedly mentioning CoH anyway, even though *we* need to get over its death and move on.   

You can't help but notice that even the Mild Mannered Reporter articles only get about 1/10th of the reader comments when CoH isn't mentioned that they do when it is.

[Mazz vs The World]

The problem isn't letting COH go, it's finding a suitable replacement. I think this is what many people are missing. I have come to terms with COH being gone, I have accepted that it may not ever come back. That's fine, that is me letting it go. What I can't seem to let go of is the fact that there's nothing out there at the moment close to COH. I think this is where people are missing the point that COH fans have been trying to make. Sure we want the game back OR we want a game that, at least plays like COH did. I see nothing wrong with wanting that, COH was one of the best super-hero games out there. Many would agree on that and sure there are other super hero games (not many) but they aren't even close to what COH was. I honestly wish people would realize that it's not necessarily about letting go of COH, it's about letting go of playing a good solid game that you could actually enjoy. I know that it wasn't for everyone and that there are some who would argue and say the game was terrible but that can be said for any game, not everyone will enjoy the same things. So yes I agree we can let COH go, once we get an acceptable substitute, until then we can miss and want COH as much as we want!

[JaguarX]

You can't help but notice that even the Mild Mannered Reporter articles only get about 1/10th of the reader comments when CoH isn't mentioned  that they do when it is.

Hmmm I wonder why?

[beveri8469]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/08/a-mild-mannered-reporter-nine-reasons-for-nine-years-of-city-of/

here is another article about the 9yrs of coh too that was posted today

[Golden Girl]

When NCsoft is ashes, you have my permission to move on.

[FatherXmas]

The problem isn't letting COH go, it's finding a suitable replacement. I think this is what many people are missing. I have come to terms with COH being gone, I have accepted that it may not ever come back. That's fine, that is me letting it go. What I can't seem to let go of is the fact that there's nothing out there at the moment close to COH. I think this is where people are missing the point that COH fans have been trying to make. Sure we want the game back OR we want a game that, at least plays like COH did. I see nothing wrong with wanting that, COH was one of the best super-hero games out there. Many would agree on that and sure there are other super hero games (not many) but they aren't even close to what COH was. I honestly wish people would realize that it's not necessarily about letting go of COH, it's about letting go of playing a good solid game that you could actually enjoy. I know that it wasn't for everyone and that there are some who would argue and say the game was terrible but that can be said for any game, not everyone will enjoy the same things. So yes I agree we can let COH go, once we get an acceptable substitute, until then we can miss and want COH as much as we want!

That's because from an uninformed corporate standpoint, games get pigeonholed into genres and all games in that genre are essentially the same.  Right?

It's like having an acquaintance asking about my new girlfriend by pointing out my last girlfriend was Asian and this one isn't.  Just because I dated an Asian woman doesn't mean I only exclusively date Asian women and more importantly they are NOT interchangeable.

But the demise of the first and biggest game in our genre sends the message that either this genre has been tapped out or the few games that are still around already handles the interest for that genre.  No reason to build another.  Nobody bothered to do a postmortem and determine why the game struck a chord to begin with.  I'm guessing most believe it was because it was the first, tapping into a new segment that wasn't satisfied with wizards and barbarians.

In another thread I suggest that either through design or accident, the original devs game us a game where our character's identity was front and center.  Where the game's lore wasn't so all encompassing that it prevented us from going beyond the established lore (lets here it for a multiverse of infinite possibilities).  We weren't pigeonholed into one of a number of predetermined story lines as to why we took up the sword or the wand.  We didn't have to come from a race with a long established world history.  We didn't have a popular IP cannon that we couldn't stray out of.  And because of all this our connections to our characters were a lot stronger than most games and that's why we still had a rather vocal and loyal following right up to the day the announcement was made.

The casual observer saw a superhero game.  I think we saw it as the means to express ourselves in visual and story.  The problem however is that with the swing to true F2P, uniqueness and personal identity is a cash shop option.  You can charge money for that (along with useful inventory space).  B2P (buy to play) like GW2 and TSW can allow a few more options for free.

[FatherXmas]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/08/a-mild-mannered-reporter-nine-reasons-for-nine-years-of-city-of/

here is another article about the 9yrs of coh too that was posted today

Well I agree with a lot of it.

I would add to number 5 that it's closure could also be used as an example that innovation didn't work because if it was so good, why did it close.  "If players X, Y and Z on your team are so good then why did your team lose?"

[JaguarX]

Well I agree with a lot of it.

I would add to number; 5 that it's closure could also be used as an example that innovation didn't work because if it was so good, why did it close.  "If players X, Y and Z on your team are so good then why did your team lose?"

*put on tin foil hat and sits on tin foil throne*

I wonder if ncsoft allowed these innovations to be tried hoping it would fail so they can say "see! We tried innovations and it didn't work. People want what they know!" But it worked, a notice that us usually reserved for fantasy games but here a super hero.mmo a genre that is supposedly not worth much effort making it work. Or maybe cox was merely a test mule for features they could see work and add to their staple flagships and if it didn't work it only would have been a "small" mmo sinking a super hero one at that.

*takes off tin foil hat and get off tin foil throne and use it to make swordfish steaks*

[Captain Electric]

The depth of my attachment to CoH simply can't be comprehended by someone who didn't spend damned near every hour of their gaming time for years at a time playing the same game and interacting with the same people.  They don't get the comfortable familiarity of logging in and seeing the same group of player names in global chat channels that they've been seeing for years.

I read those two sentences and instantly wanted to high-five you while simultaneously I wanted to sob into a beer.

When NCsoft is ashes, you have my permission to move on.

One of these days, I am going to give you a friggin ton of subscription or micro-transaction dollars.

[KSinclaire]

I suspect that at least some of these people crying "Enough already; move on!" are people who do not play very many MMOs.

I will "move on" when someone in the MMO industry "gets it right". Aside from the fine people at the former Paragon Studios; nobody else has.

CoH wasn't perfect, sure. Not by any stretch. But it hit many major points that even the company originally responsible for that - Cryptic - continues to miss in release after release.

[Manga]

I suspect that at least some of these people crying "Enough already; move on!" are people who do not play very many MMOs.

I'm of the same opinion.  But for clarity, so people understand what that means:

Let's say you really, really love, say, Call of Duty 3 - I use that as an example because looking at Wikipedia it was released in the same-ish era as CoH.  Let's say you really love it, and you haven't bought any of the newer games in the series.  Guess what most gamers will tell you?  That you're stuck in the past, and you should buy the latest Call of Duty: Black Ops II (released in 2012, ref Wikipedia) right away to avoid becoming a complete loser.

That's why there are lines for the latest Call of Duty releases at stores (yes, that's why I picked on that game - because it was known for its long release-day lines).  It's a combination of people who want the latest release, and people who are afraid of being called a loser for having last year's release 2 days too long.

They're trying to apply that to City of Heroes.  The problem with that is, there is no City of Heroes 2, or 3, or 4, there's only one.  It may be old, but there is NO REPLACEMENT.  There is no similar replacement either.  The only way you can stretch the definition of "replacement" is if you wrap all MMO's together as being equal - and if you do that, World of Warcraft players are the most stuck-in-the-past losers of all.

[JaguarX]

I'm of the same opinion.  But for clarity, so people understand what that means:

Let's say you really, really love, say, Call of Duty 3 - I use that as an example because looking at Wikipedia it was released in the same-ish era as CoH.  Let's say you really love it, and you haven't bought any of the newer games in the series.  Guess what most gamers will tell you?  That you're stuck in the past, and you should buy the latest Call of Duty: Black Ops II (released in 2012, ref Wikipedia) right away to avoid becoming a complete loser.

That's why there are lines for the latest Call of Duty releases at stores (yes, that's why I picked on that game - because it was known for its long release-day lines).  It's a combination of people who want the latest release, and people who are afraid of being called a loser for having last year's release 2 days too long.

They're trying to apply that to City of Heroes.  The problem with that is, there is no City of Heroes 2, or 3, or 4, there's only one.  It may be old, but there is NO REPLACEMENT.  There is no similar replacement either.  The only way you can stretch the definition of "replacement" is if you wrap all MMO's together as being equal - and if you do that, World of Warcraft players are the most stuck-in-the-past losers of all.

Weeeeeellll, it could be said that many in that series is like expansion packs. Same game slightly better graphics than.last with few more weapons. Its like in some minds playing i4 of cox instead of playing i23 if that was an option.


But overall it boils down to the individual gamer. Some only play the latest newest games. Some people pick a game or two and stick with it. Dome people play games like cox for the social aspect and some believe it or not didn't give two shakes about the social aspect but liked the game itself and would have happily played it if it was a single player nonmultiplayer game while many of the first group would leave without the social aspect. The thing is that it seems that people have their various reason for playing a game but don't can't or won't understand why would someone play for any other reason than they play for. Like some can't understand how someone can or if they really played cox for years how can they not get attached? Just like some people that don't get attached to can't understand how do people get attached to a game. And within all those categories you have people that play tons of mmos some that only play one at a time and some that only played cox attached emotionally and not attached emotionally.

Then on the emotional side you have even more varients. How long is one supposed to grieve over a game loss? For some two days some forever. And again neither sides understands why grieve for two days and move on and why grieve forever and why grieve for everything between the two.

All those divisions are destractions that brought and bring us to great games like cox. We need to tap into that or else as the player base of the mmo world continue these divisions and always creating new ones its actually making it easier for game corporations to do what ever they want and get away with it. On massively and I'm not saying stop it or agree with it as a person have freedom to choose where and when to post but I.notice articles that more responses from people here on articles that is supposedly against saving coh than articles for.

Hell I stumbled across an article about heros and villians a project touted as one should support yet only about 17 responses. Even a person that known among old forum people as pro-ncsoft commented in support. Yet on the other articles of negative sort it seems there is no hesitation to go there and tell them and author how wrong they are and bicker with folks. Not a good look. And people there notice that many are quick to flood articles from here saying coh is not dead we are not.moving on etc. But not much of support they demand, or rather better term, ask support out of others.

[GuyPerfect]

I don't get the impression that the article was about City of Heroes. So the first image was a CoH screenshot. Big whoop. One of the images had to be first, why not CoH to honor its death?

I played City of Heroes, and I enjoyed it. And no, I'm none too pleased with the manner in which NCsoft shut it down. But you know what? There are ways that NCsoft could have shut down CoH that I would have been okay with. They could have come out and told Paragon Studios they had nine months to implement a going away event. I'm not all worked up with the fact that the game is gone; the only part I explicitly disagree with is the way the parent company unceremoniously pulled the plug and laid off all their workers. That NCsoft decided to do away with City of Heroes, I don't hold that against them. They had that right as a corporation, and frankly, I'm glad I live in a world where companies aren't forced to do things they don't want to do for the sake of keeping certain people from getting upset. It was a business decision, and it was their call. No one ever said it couldn't go down that way.

So yeah, even as a member of the community, I'm going to have to express my displeasure here.

I've seen a lot of desperate and antagonizing behavior from this community stretching back as far as August. I've seen drama queens swear up and down that the world was coming to an end. I've seen a lot of hate thrown at people who had nothing to do with it, like NCsoft employees being "guilty by association," or even the Korean ethnicity because hey, NCsoft is in South Korea. And then there's this thread, calling out Massively for telling us to "get over it" because of an article that isn't specifically about City of Heroes?

As someone who read the article and considered what the intent of the author was, I can tell you that the message is this: "Online games will eventually go offline, and that's okay." I can also tell you what the message most certainly is NOT: "Online games will eventually go offline, so get over it and play a new game so I can attract visitors to the site with trendy, up-to-date blog posts." But then how does the City of Heroes community respond? Just look at the comments: the author was called a condescending idiot who should get a grip with reality. Way to represent, bro.

Is that what we are? A bunch of melodramatic, victimizing whiners with selective reading habits who are totally unable to gracefully deal with an unfortunate turn of events? You don't think so? Well take a look around: we certainly come across that way to the rest of the world.

[Mazz vs The World]

I don't get the impression that the article was about City of Heroes. So the first image was a CoH screenshot. Big whoop. One of the images had to be first, why not CoH to honor its death?

I played City of Heroes, and I enjoyed it. And no, I'm none too pleased with the manner in which NCsoft shut it down. But you know what? There are ways that NCsoft could have shut down CoH that I would have been okay with. They could have come out and told Paragon Studios they had nine months to implement a going away event. I'm not all worked up with the fact that the game is gone; the only part I explicitly disagree with is the way the parent company unceremoniously pulled the plug and laid off all their workers. That NCsoft decided to do away with City of Heroes, I don't hold that against them. They had that right as a corporation, and frankly, I'm glad I live in a world where companies aren't forced to do things they don't want to do for the sake of keeping certain people from getting upset. It was a business decision, and it was their call. No one ever said it couldn't go down that way.

So yeah, even as a member of the community, I'm going to have to express my displeasure here.

I've seen a lot of desperate and antagonizing behavior from this community stretching back as far as August. I've seen drama queens swear up and down that the world was coming to an end. I've seen a lot of hate thrown at people who had nothing to do with it, like NCsoft employees being "guilty by association," or even the Korean ethnicity because hey, NCsoft is in South Korea. And then there's this thread, calling out Massively for telling us to "get over it" because of an article that isn't specifically about City of Heroes?

As someone who read the article and considered what the intent of the author was, I can tell you that the message is this: "Online games will eventually go offline, and that's okay." I can also tell you what the message most certainly is NOT: "Online games will eventually go offline, so get over it and play a new game so I can attract visitors to the site with trendy, up-to-date blog posts." But then how does the City of Heroes community respond? Just look at the comments: the author was called a condescending idiot who should get a grip with reality. Way to represent, bro.

Is that what we are? A bunch of melodramatic, victimizing whiners with selective reading habits who are totally unable to gracefully deal with an unfortunate turn of events? You don't think so? Well take a look around: we certainly come across that way to the rest of the world.

We will all have a different "impression" when reading an article so your point is valid however so is everyone elses. If you want to call some whiners I will agree with that as well, because not all of us will express frustration, anger, sadness, etc, the same. With that being said, I think this article was mostly in regard to the closing of COH and of course it wasn't put bluntly (maybe) to say "get over it" but it was an article made to let people know that online games will die and to move on. I don't think anyone can tell anyone else what to do. If a community refuses to move on then honestly who cares? I don't, go to change.org and you will see a plethra of people not moving on. You say you've seen desperate and antagonizing remarks where people have said absurd things, while I do not agree with the remarks or actions those people expressed, I do however understand it. This was obviously more than a game to those people, to some it was their life. Not to bring it up again but it all comes back to the way this game was shut down. I will spare you the details cause I am sure you know, but perhaps that is one of the main reasons people reacted so badly to the closure of this game. You can't expect people to remain respectful when you don't provide the same courtesy. So yes some people have been melodramatic victimized whiners, but you have to at least be able to put yourself in their shoes and if you can't then you simply can not understand what this game meant to them. Also I see alot more positive comments and optimism from this community than negative, whining, name-calling comments. You always have some bad with the good, but if you go specifically looking for it, trust and believe you will find it and you may not like what you see.

[FatherXmas]

I guessed we missed the last time they discussed this.  Long before the "just move on already" sentiment some believe Massively is advocating.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10/16/the-soapbox-no-game-lives-forever/

and just before the "announcement", even though this is more of "discuss" post

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/08/13/the-daily-grind-do-mmo-sunsets-kill-your-investment-in-other-mm/

It's human nature to occasionally take a random, malice not intended, comment personally.  We have all been on both sides of this at one time or another in our lives.  These misunderstandings are one of the bread and butter moments of reality TV.

City of Heroes is currently the most recent, large MMO to close unexpectedly.  Unlike SW:G with SW:TOR, NCSOFT didn't have another MMO of the same genre to usher us into.  It wasn't like "surprise, here's a new super hero MMO based on the Wild Card universe, have fun.  It was more like waking up one day to find out your favorite hangout was burned down for the insurance money.  So there is a lot of anger already there.

But Mike's article is built on some of the standard talking points on how to help others work though grief and loss.  And quite often those who are grieving resist, often hostilely, toward those who are trying to help them.

[JaguarX]

So yes some people have been melodramatic victimized whiners, but you have to at least be able to put yourself in their shoes and if you can't then you simply can not understand what this game meant to them.

And this works both ways. From what it seems, not much of either side tried to do this. And if I had more central location of the other side I'd be writing this to them also so dont take it (anyone) as saying one side should do it first.

What it looks outside this here forum is that both side going at each other throat. One saying get over it in various ways others saying there is no getting over it in various ways instead of trying to understand and put themselves in the other person shoes who may not be as emotionally attached to the game as they are. But they want the ones that may not e emotionally attached to put themselves i nthe emotionally attached shoes but the emotionally attacthed dont seem to be willing to put themselves in the other person shoes and that creates an unstoppable force meet the unmovable object scenario. One side has to make the first move by not attacking the other side at every article. If the other side or if it's felt the other side wont make the first move, then the emotional attached should make that first move and put themselves in the other people shoes. The worse that can happen is that the other side continue to be beligerant but then it's not your problem. Right now, both sides claim the otherside became disrespectful first and want to be understood but how many even tried to understand the ones and actually comment on it in a non-angry, non-condecending, non-better than though, non-you are nothing but a paid ncsoft shrill, non-ncsoft must be paying you good for these articles way?

If we, the ones that had some sort of emotional attachment wish the otherside to place themselves in our shoes, we sure as better place ourselves in their shoes and leave the negative judgement at home or quit thinking that they are supposed to understand what we feel but we dont have to extend that same courtesy.

It works both ways and probably not the best time when doing so for the usual snark. Or both sides will continue to go down the same road and might as well just accept it as that is how it will be be but keep in mind, the otherside dont have to do anything. We here are trying to do something trying to change something and have much more on the line. In the article about H&V in the comment section there is a few comments questioning the game based on GGs past behavior on the old forum and some deciding to not even bother supporting the game due to that. Do we want anything to do with SaveCOH or Titan to be in the same boat and people going, "oh that look neat but I'm not touching with a ten foot pole because the people behind it liked to troll the massively articles insulting authors because they dont share their view point in an opinion section." Not sayinf people are trolling but we all know that word gets thrown around easily and readily. Even though the game is gone we still should try to keep the community image alive that yes, we were hurt, yes the shutdown was fubar, but we are still friendly people.

"To keep your character intact you cannot stoop to filthy acts. It makes it easier to stoop the next time." Katherine Hepburn

[Mazz vs The World]

Even though the game is gone we still should try to keep the community image alive that yes, we were hurt, yes the shutdown was fubar, but we are still friendly people.

I agree with everything you say. However, what people need to keep in mind is that not all of us are friendly and polite. Also, just because someone or even multiple people are irate and vocal about what they hate/dislike,  doesn't mean we are all that way.

[goodtime]

All they're doing is drumming up page hits.  They're rarely more informative than cheerleading, and their innumerable self-referencing links are a pain.   Anymore, if I want information on an MMO, I hit up youtube in the background or a second monitor.  I get better info and can go look and see what's going on if it sounds interesting.

[JaguarX]

I agree with everything you say. However, what people need to keep in mind is that not all of us are friendly and polite. Also, just because someone or even multiple people are irate and vocal about what they hate/dislike,  doesn't mean we are all that way.

Of course and have to remember that for those that are not here and or rather move on and or just indifferent and should avoid insults that generalize them as for an example I seen recently, "lemmings".

Of course those that are rude probably will continue to be rude, and those that are not probably will continue to not be rude. But unfortunately, when people under the guise of Savecox or as one that want to save it be rude and generalize the people that may have moved on or indifferent in a negative manner, some people will have and may in future return the same, which then people on this end will do the same to them and repeat process. Kind of like how it happened on the old forum where it got to the point that no one was really listening to each other and more focused on how to yell scream belittle and degrade the other person regardless of the point of the posting.
Especially the ones that dont agree with that method is posting regularly and replying to the opposite end but never, well Quich did in that in that one article, say something as simple as, "hey man, look I'm hurt about this too but it dont help attacking people that dotn feel the the way you do." It can be taken as standing idley by agreeing with it especially when no hesitation is shown to get on that person case when they either attack a savecox member and or fire back at the person that attacked them under the guise of savecox. We heros right, well some of us? We dont just save those that agree with us. We stand for what is right. And when people see that, that savecoh we are heroes this is what we do will go beyond merely just some cheesy saying that belongs to an organization tha spawns arguementive people that is looking for anything that dont agree with their view. But "hey, that guy from savecoh stood up for me against his own and I dont even agree with them." They still may not agree with it and still may be indifferent but it's opportunity to gain something more important than agreement. It's opportunity to gain respect.

right now, all people on both sides to go by as a whole IS the loud angry onbnoxious few that roam around here. And a few posts dissing the other side view, (dissing is strong word too strong for this case but Rockstar wore off and cant think of another word right now) but saying nothing at all but pressing the like button of those rude obnoxious ones insead of saying "Cool it man, you're making us look bad." You think people on other sites that know nothing about savecox and titan network would feel welcomed here when only thing they mostly see from savecox banner is those rude ones and no one else that is commenting from that same source here sayign a single word to them because they are too embroiled telling the author how stupid they are or disagreeing with another poster? If I was some random bloke that didnt know savecoh movement or titan network, I would think that it was full of obnoxious jerks and people that turn a blind eye to it. If people come here they will quickly see that those jerks are very very few but there isnt much of a welcome mat out there. And sometimes being welcoming and warm or at least giving the image of that, is the opening of understanding even if disagree. I know we can do it. We done it before. Many on each side of the fence at one point in time got along very well on the old forum for years. Are we going to let NCSoft take that away, the only thing they cant take away? Many here have shown they are heroic, and many say they are heroic, and it's easy to do heroics among peers, but what about in the wild? Where are these heroes? Well Captain Electric is another one I notice who is Captain electric here and out there and generally try to keep the peace but most people on both sides are used to captain electric doing that. How about some unfamiliar faces that frequent those articles. Next time resist the urge to attack the author and or people of differing opinions but and stand silent at people dragging our name through the mud. If a person is going to grab collars dont grab collars of those are indifferent or dont agree with. Grab their collar and the collar of the person that is from here spoutign save cox titan network and the project zs too if they get out of line. Quinch did it, and I dont think there was much fuss behind it but that is plus one in the respect department from those that comment and those that dont comment there but lurk trying to get a feel of what cohtitan is about. If a person can confront a person that is indifferent they can confront those that are being obnoxious while calling themselves "hero". Sometimes a simple reminder of "hey, sorry for that rudeness from our fellow savecoxer (hopeful, titannetworker etc) but that was on called for but I think of it "this and that way in a much nicer tone". It all boils down to character and sometimes a little nuts to stand up to our own but trust me on this on in the realm of public relations, it will do us very good to remind people and SHOW them that not all here are onbnoxious crazed jerks that is ready to pounce on anything any article that mentions closedown and COX and move on in one sentence regardless of the numerous games also mentioned there.

Many of those same people claim they want people to allow them to have their opinion and right to continue fighting but yet they show very little to none and sometimes straight disrespect to those that would like the same respect but just indifferent or moved on. All while spouting cox. It's like this extreme example coming up, If I was (and dear god I would never in my life do this) went site to site saying "I'm from the Immortal Squirrel worship group. If you dont believe in the squirrel you all, all you mindless lemmings, will perish in the eternal flames that is powered by the sacred acorns." and more than few join in, people probably will view the Immortal Squirrel group as a den of nutcases and wouldnt believe it's merely a group of people named Immortal Squirrel that just worships nature and is not looking for any sort of trouble. what they will remember is those vocal nutcases and everytime they see Immortal Squirrel, they will think about those nutcases. But if some other members told those nutcases to stop that nonsense, and say "yea we worship nature but anyone is welcomed whether you believe in worshiping nature or just want to learn about nature or just want to hang out in a civilized manner, are welcomed to stop on through." Then people will still remember those nutcases but this time probably will remember those others one that respected their view even if one was industrialist and not in line with Immortal Squirrel. This may give them enough of a welcome to come on over and check things out and when they realize the majority of the people are not crazed nutcases like those few vocal ones, they will take them as such. They might leave still not agreeing and still wanting to raze every forest but more than likely they will have respect of the group and might even help in one way or another even if it's funding for putting more trees in cities or relocating trees they cut down. But if they walk away with the bad taste of only those nutcases they probably will step up their efforts to ensure they stay away from that group and continue to do everything in their power to trip them up at every turn and if Immortal squirrel allows even the relative few to do it even with indifferent silence then both sides will view each other as enemies. And that solves nothing.

Especially when we spawned most of us from the same game, especially when most of us here and there are MMO players, we are brothers and sisters and like family, we have some nut jobs, but sometimes we have to reel them in to remind people that the entire family are not like that and dont condone that behavior.

[Peregrine Falcon]

I find it amusing that one of the responses to my first comment on the article is a passive-aggressive one by a moderator, Breetoplay. She said "Normally I'd delete this post for trolling, but..." and then she goes on to try to educate me as to why I'm wrong. Which is, presumably, why she didn't want to delete my post.

I also find it kinda funny that both the mod and the article's author responded to my comments. I'd say that my comments have struck a nerve with them. Which, in my experience, means that it's likely that they're at least close to the mark.

So basically: Expect a bunch of "MMO's die, get over it folks" articles from the folks at Massively over the next couple of months. Ones that, of course, aren't actually directed at the CoH community, but all of which will have at least one CoH screenshot and/or have some other reference to CoH.

Looks like someone at Massively's bucking for a job at NCSoft.

[FatherXmas]

I find it amusing that one of the responses to my first comment on the article is a passive-aggressive one by a moderator, Breetoplay. She said "Normally I'd delete this post for unicorning, but..." and then she goes on to try to educate me as to why I'm wrong. Which is, presumably, why she didn't want to delete my post.

I also find it kinda funny that both the mod and the article's author responded to my comments. I'd say that my comments have struck a nerve with them. Which, in my experience, means that it's likely that they're at least close to the mark.

So basically: Expect a bunch of "MMO's die, get over it folks" articles from the folks at Massively over the next couple of months. Ones that, of course, aren't actually directed at the CoH community, but all of which will have at least one CoH screenshot and/or have some other reference to CoH.

Looks like someone at Massively's bucking for a job at NCSoft.

Breetoplay isn't just a mod, she's the editor and chief at Massively, Brianna Royce.  And she's been one of the staff there that have played CoH for a while, wrote many an article, video piece and was one of the hosts for their last night live stream coverage.  And all she did was pointing out that your reaction to the article is all wrong.  The problem is there is no way to mount a defense when you come out swinging like that since it's obvious you've made up your mind already.  But because she's such a pro-CoHer that she'll try anyways.

This is the kind of reaction that hurts us PF.  You turn on a group that have supported us where other MMO websites barely noticed us because you now feel like they are dissing us just because they bring up a legitimate issue about MMOs, it is a website about MMOs, that they close.  Okay, touched a nerve, I understand but, and I am only saying this because I care, there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing.   

[LadyShin]

Didn't bother reading the article... I don't care, I've read a dozen like it before. Each one is the same: The author is stressing over the fact that people are trying to revive something that they lost. Apparently this irks them so much they have to write whole columns and spend ages preaching against whatever it is...Simply because it didn't happen to them and thus doesn't matter.

To anyone who wants the COH community to keel over and die.... Get over it. Ain't gonna happen.

[Aggelakis]

Didn't bother reading the article... I don't care, I've read a dozen like it before. Each one is the same: The author is stressing over the fact that people are trying to revive something that they lost. Apparently this irks them so much they have to write whole columns and spend ages preaching against whatever it is...Simply because it didn't happen to them and thus doesn't matter.

To anyone who wants the COH community to keel over and die.... Get over it. Ain't gonna happen.

Maybe you should read the article, since that's not what the author was doing at all.

[JaguarX]

Breetoplay isn't just a mod, she's the editor and chief at Massively, Brianna Royce.  And she's been one of the staff there that have played CoH for a while, wrote many an article, video piece and was one of the hosts for their last night live stream coverage.  And all she did was pointing out that your reaction to the article is all wrong.  The problem is there is no way to mount a defense when you come out swinging like that since it's obvious you've made up your mind already.  But because she's such a pro-CoHer that she'll try anyways.

This is the kind of reaction that hurts us PF.  You turn on a group that have supported us where other MMO websites barely noticed us because you now feel like they are dissing us just because they bring up a legitimate issue about MMOs, it is a website about MMOs, that they close.  Okay, touched a nerve, I understand but, and I am only saying this because I care, there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing.   

+1 this.

[JaguarX]

Maybe you should read the article, since that's not what the author was doing at all.

Didn't bother reading the article... I don't care, I've read a dozen like it before. Each one is the same: The author is stressing over the fact that people are trying to revive something that they lost. Apparently this irks them so much they have to write whole columns and spend ages preaching against whatever it is...Simply because it didn't happen to them and thus doesn't matter.

To anyone who wants the COH community to keel over and die.... Get over it. Ain't gonna happen.

yeah give it a read, it's not what you think. It's talking about all games, that get shutdown.



"Anger can be used to fuel passion and that can inspire hope which can be used to fuel ideas which can inspire others to take a stand. And when you take those elements you can forge miracles that no one thought possible. On the flip, anger can fuel hate, which fuels division which can inspire fear of new ideas, which fuels resentment which inspires distrust which fuels insults which just end up right back at anger. Nothing is done." 

[Captain Electric]

Guys and gals, don't roll over and "accept things" when some corporation and its "just business" policies shafts your friends without notice. Paragon Studios was just as dedicated to us as we were to them. In so many ways, they were our friends.

A lot of you are starting to over-complicate this.

This isn't a natural disaster, this isn't the loss of a loved one, this was a product of human volition, completely controlled and controllable. And in the context of dignity and respectability and loyalty to some of the best developer talent, it was unacceptable behavior.

By the way, for anyone who wants a good read, I just ripped Eliot a new one.

(Hmmm, the comment is there but the Livefyre link won't auto scroll to it.)

Eliot: When I said about a month ago that the community needs to accept the state of things, I knew in advance that I was going to be attracting a lot of hate mail, no small portion of it from people I like and whose passion I respect. I still felt it was the right thing to say, and I still wrote it, and I took the nastiness in stride.

Cap'n: This is where there's a disconnect between you and so many of the rest of us. I accepted City of Heroes' closure on December 1, right after midnight. There it was, in my face: City of Heroes' closure. I'm both bewildered, and sorry, that it took you until last month to exit denial; but for me, it was easy enough to see that it was closed, seeing as how I couldn't log in. But let's put that aside; What you've done that is less bewildering and more offensive, is suggesting that we all accept NCSoft's behavior as "okay", the firing without notice of one of the most dedicated, most loyal to its fans, most talented studios in the industry as "okay"--and don't even try to argue yourself out of that. You've done this. You have. No matter what you say, you've implied this by your treatise on merrily moving on.

You can move on all you want, but don't look down your nose at those who've got the guts to keeping standing for something they believe in, in the face of utterly unacceptable behavior. The worst thing that you did last month--made even worse by your inability to realize it even in retrospect--was to tell ANYONE besides yourself that it was "time to stop digging up the grave". YOU don't get to tell an ENTIRE FAN BASE when THEY should stop fighting for what they're fans of. There's only one person who has the final say about when it's "time to quit", and that'll be the last man or woman in the fight. If men like you called all the shots, there'd be no Electronic Frontier Foundation, no fair labor and employment laws, no Star Trek, and the Circle of Thorns would've gotten that awful first round of graphical updates. With enough stone-walling, any corporation could convince you to roll over and start making comparisons between losses owing to their behavior and losses elsewhere in your life, in an attempt to reconcile yourself with the adoption of a completely spineless position.

You're entitled to your frame of mind, certainly, but it's not better or more rational than my frame of mind. I'm an angry customer who has a valid complaint about something, and who doesn't want to reward NCSoft's revolting "it's just business" policies any more than former members of Paragon Studios are likely to want to see that kind of behavior stick around in the industry. I don't accept that behavior because in a dignified, respectable context, IT IS UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR.

[FatherXmas]

By the way, for anyone who wants a good read, I just ripped Eliot a new one.

Honestly Cap, why the FRAK would you do that to his #9Reasons article?  Fine, you didn't like his previous article, post it there but to attach it to this is stupid and petty and simply reinforces in the eyes of mundanes that CoH players are a bunch of zealots that drank the cool aid and waiting for the Rikti mothership.  What?  He's no longer allowed to speak the name of the game because he questioned the true faith?  He's excommunicated from the Church of Paragon and you must now smite him at every opportunity?

We need people like him and Bree and Massively, people who loved the game and a site that covered our game closer than any other MMO dedicated website out there.  We shouldn't be ripping them anything, we should be working with them to keep our message alive.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I suspect that at least some of these people crying "Enough already; move on!" are people who do not play very many MMOs.

I think that could swing both ways.  It may not even be directly related.  It's all attitude really.  I have played tons of MMO's.  MMO's that have been shut down and MMO's that I just choice to stop playing.  I also have no trouble moving on past them, but that is because I generally don't have a hard time moving on past anything in life.  However moving on and forgetting are two very different things.  And while I moved on in my life, that doesn't mean I have moved on from the idea that CoH can/should come back.  I feel this article fails to point that out.  Moving on is such a broad term and personal decision.  Telling a person to move on, or the opposite telling a person not to move on, is not going to have the desired effect.  You can continue moving forward in life while retaining or holding on to something from your past.  Living in the past is a bad thing, but just because you miss or want your old MMO back doesn't mean you live in the past.

Having said that, the people who choose to completely move on in the sense the article is talking about don't deserve to be treated like quitters or people who just want to fit in with the newest coolest thing.  Some people just like to move around in life.  Even when CoH was out I took breaks when new MMO's or single player games came out that I wanted to play.  It wasn't because it was new and hip, its because it looked cool and I wanted to play it.

 There is a lot of judgement being passed on both sides it would seem.  Which is kind of funny, because both sides are asking not to be judged.  "Don't call me a doo-doo head, you doo-doo head!"


@Jaguarx I like the new sig

[silvers1]

I really don't agree with the premise of the artice.  Games like the original EverQuest have shown they can be run indefinitely - they may not bring in huge revenues, but that's not the point.

NCSoft had the option to sell to a number of interested parties, and chose instead to sink the IP.

[FatherXmas]

Premise is still valid.  Everquest and UO will likely die someday.  It may not be soon but at some point Sony and EA will pull the plug.

[dwturducken]

My comment echoed what someone else had said here, to the point of a game reviewer not really having the time to for close emotional ties to a game or its community. I really wanted to make an analogy to a gynecologist getting jaded having to look at girly bits all day, but I figured that would run a little too close to violating their standards.

[GuyPerfect]

So basically: Expect a bunch of "MMO's die, get over it folks" articles from the folks at Massively over the next couple of months. Ones that, of course, aren't actually directed at the CoH community, but all of which will have at least one CoH screenshot and/or have some other reference to CoH.

I'm going to hold you to that. Do you like your crow barbecue or teriyaki style?

[Peregrine Falcon]

Breetoplay isn't just a mod, she's the editor and chief at Massively, Brianna Royce.  And she's been one of the staff there that have played CoH for a while, wrote many an article, video piece and was one of the hosts for their last night live stream coverage.

I know who she is. Who she is doesn't change the fact that her statement; "Normally I'd delete this post for unicorning, but..." was still a passive-agressive statement, just as I said.

This is the kind of reaction that hurts us PF.  You turn on a group that have supported us where other MMO websites barely noticed us because you now feel like they are dissing us just because they bring up a legitimate issue about MMOs, it is a website about MMOs, that they close.

I haven't turned on anyone. All I did was ask two legitimate questions - "Am I the only one who's tired of Massively articles telling us to get over the City of Heroes shut down?" AND "So how many Massively articles that 'just happen' to use a CoH screenshot, that 'just happen' to be talking about MMO's dying, can I expect to see on Massively over the next couple of months?"

Neither one of which has Ms. Editor-in-Chief even attempted to address, instead she just dismissed my comments as unicorn posts.

C'mon! Massively posts yet another article talking about MMOs dying, right after CoH's 9th Anniversary with a CoH screenshot as the first pic, but I'm supposed to believe her when she says 'Oh no! It wasn't targeted at the CoH community!' It's just a series of coincidences, right?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

I don't care how helpful Massively has been in the past. When they start posting multiple articles telling us to get over it and move on then they're no longer helping us. So who's turned on whom?

EDIT: Yes, my MMO died. And no, despite what Massively says, it's not ok.

[Rust]

I'm not familiar with Massively nor am I going to let an Op-Ed article affect me.

[Captain Electric]

Honestly Cap, why the FRAK would you do that to his #9Reasons article?

Well, you'd really have to go read the very brief back-and-forth between me and him to see how I got from point A to point B. I actually started out by complimenting him and thanking him for his article, and made another little comment about a part of it that really struck a chord with me (for which I received a lot of "likes"). Perhaps I should have copied and posted all of the comments, there weren't too many. For my part, I wish Eliot could know how much and for how long I enjoyed his City of Heroes column. He, no doubt, sees my response in a vacuum, and that says nothing about how much respect I also have for him. Still, I have my own mind about things, and the point where I stopped thanking him was the part where he stuck to his guns about last month. He was actually the one who brought the previous article up beneath his "9 reasons" article, not me.

As for everything else, I'm not ignoring the meat of your comments, FatherXmas. I'm just giving myself a day or two to mull 'em over before I reply. I might disagree with you on some things, but I respect the fact that your thoughts almost always come from a deeply well thought-out origin.

Some of the people here who knew me before the closure have expressed a bit of surprise at my occasional brashness. But the knee-jerk reaction that feeds a reply like mine to Eliot is really just a strong defense of something I don't have any desire to buckle or compromise on: when I see people fighting for something that seems honest and decent and good, I see nothing wrong and everything right with that; and when I see others making a move to step on their toes for it, I can become very protective, even angry. If people want to keep saying, "Save City of Heroes", well City of Heroes and Paragon Studios were honest, decent, good things.

If you're wondering "Why?", well that's part of it, at least. The biggest part, probably.

Maybe I lose perspective sometimes, or maybe more people actually ought to share my perspective. I don't know. The result of your post was that it cautioned me to think about that for a bit.

[FatherXmas]

I know who she is. Who she is doesn't change the fact that her statement; "Normally I'd delete this post for unicorning, but..." was still a passive-agressive statement, just as I said.
I haven't turned on anyone. All I did was ask two legitimate questions - "Am I the only one who's tired of Massively articles telling us to get over the City of Heroes shut down?" AND "So how many Massively articles that 'just happen' to use a CoH screenshot, that 'just happen' to be talking about MMO's dying, can I expect to see on Massively over the next couple of months?"

Neither one of which has Ms. Editor-in-Chief even attempted to address, instead she just dismissed my comments as unicorn posts.

You sort of left out the part where you accused them of accepting bribes from NCSOFT.

Please excuse my poor attempt to copy/paste that exchange here, I had to take some liberties formatting it.

Peregrine_Falcon 3 days ago
Am I the only one who's tired of Massively articles telling us to get over the City of Heroes shut down?

I hope that NCSoft is paying you well for all of these articles.


------------------------------------------------------

   MikedotFoster 3 days ago
   @Peregrine_Falcon It was a beautiful day on the Massively yacht.

   ------------------------------------------------------

   Evil1 3 days ago
   Lol

   ------------------------------------------------------

   breetoplay [moderator] 3 days ago
   @Peregrine_FalconNormally I'd delete this comment for unicorning, but come on dude -- he mentions a bunch of
   games, not just CoH. He's clearly not picking specifically on CoH people.

   Also, since you appear to read selectively, let me select an article I wrote that says the opposite:

   http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/01/24/ask-massively-we-dont-need-another-hero/

   Staff members are allowed to have different opinions and write about them. Crazy, huh?


   ------------------------------------------------------

      Peregrine_Falcon 2 days ago
      @breetoplay The first pic in this article is a screenshot from CoH, which just recently closed down. It's pretty
      obvious that it's at least mostly directed at the CoH community.

      And I'm completely ok with staff members having different opinions, I just hope that you're ok with commenters
      having different opinions instead of just deleting those comments because you perceive them as unicorning.


      ------------------------------------------------------

         MikedotFoster 2 days ago
         @Peregrine_Falcon @breetoplay I picked that screenshot because I thought it was prettiest. <3

         ------------------------------------------------------

         Peregrine_Falcon 1 day ago
         @MikedotFoster

         Fair enough. So how many Massively articles that 'just happen' to use a CoH screenshot, that 'just happen' to
         be talking about MMO's dying, can I expect to see on Massively over the next couple of months?

         I'm sure it'll be quite a few more as it brings in the web hits!


         ------------------------------------------------------

         breetoplay [moderator] 1 day ago
         @Peregrine_Falcon @breetoplay When you accuse writers of being paid off, you're unicorning.

         ------------------------------------------------------

         Peregrine_Falcon 6 hours ago
         @breetoplay

         Ok, I was a bit upset when I saw the article, but you're right. I shouldn't have accused the author of being paid
         by NCSoft. I apologize for that.

         You didn't answer my question though, which was: "How many Massively articles that 'just happen' to use a CoH
         screenshot, that 'just happen' to be talking about MMO's dying, can I expect to see on Massively over the next
         couple of months?"

Bree actually told you why she thought about deleting it, you sort of glossed over that part.  At least you apologized.

Honestly the worst thing a news and review site can be accused of is accepting payoffs from the companies whose products they review.  Also since Bree is the Editor, she knew first hand what the article was pitched to actually be about and it wasn't about telling CoH players to STFU.  So you can sort of see why she mentioned that she hovered over the delete button on her screen for a moment when she first read your post.  But she quickly realized that deleting it would just convince you more that they had it out for CoH players now so she thought better and tried to real you back in.

C'mon! Massively posts yet another article talking about MMOs dying, right after CoH's 9th Anniversary with a CoH screenshot as the first pic, but I'm supposed to believe her when she says 'Oh no! It wasn't targeted at the CoH community!' It's just a series of coincidences, right?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

I don't care how helpful Massively has been in the past. When they start posting multiple articles telling us to get over it and move on then they're no longer helping us. So who's turned on whom?

EDIT: Yes, my MMO died. And no, despite what Massively says, it's not ok.

And it's pretty damn freaking obvious why a screenshot of City of Heroes was included in an article talking about MMO closure.  Hmm, lets think now.  What is the first game you think of when I say "closed MMO"?  Okay that may not work so well here but I think it's safe to say that our game's closure made a whole lot of news.  Our rather massive and well publicized attempt to convince NCSOFT to reverse their decision kept in the news.  Our tribute videos continued to make news even after zero hour.  It's safe to say that right now CoH is the poster child for MMO closures and will continue to be until another well known, award winning game is shut down out of the blue.

Also, there were five pictures in that article, only one was CoH.  Everything is not about us.

[FatherXmas]

Well, you'd really have to go read the very brief back-and-forth between me and him to see how I got from point A to point B. I actually started out by complimenting him and thanking him for his article, and made another little comment about a part of it that really struck a chord with me (for which I received a lot of "likes"). Perhaps I should have copied and posted all of the comments, there weren't too many. For my part, I wish Eliot could know how much and for how long I enjoyed his City of Heroes column. He, no doubt, sees my response in a vacuum, and that says nothing about how much respect I also have for him. Still, I have my own mind about things, and the point where I stopped thanking him was the part where he stuck to his guns about last month. He was actually the one who brought the previous article up beneath his "9 reasons" article, not me.

What I reacted to was the statement "hey look what I did to Eliot".  You were excited and proud that you did that.  That's the kind of sad boast you normally see from bullies trying to shore up their self esteem.  I realize that there are a lot of people still here that haven't moved beyond the anger stage of the grieving process, actually more like circled back to it again once bargaining failed.  But do we really need to fan the flames?

And yes he brought it up, in the comments, not as part of this article.  But only after you called him out about them.

captainelectriccoh 2 days ago
Mr. Lefebvre, it sure seems these days like you couldn't care less whether any City of Heroes fan actually likes you; but just in case there's a part of you that cares what other people think--thank you for writing this. I suspect it rather accurately describes a lot of other peoples feelings too, and it makes up for a lot (albeit coincidentally, I'm aware of this).

Of course he would reply.  He took the bait and then you opened up on him with the Kirk Double Fist.



Not cool.

[Peregrine Falcon]

Honestly the worst thing a news and review site can be accused of is accepting payoffs from the companies whose products they review.

Yeah. I just meant it as a snide remark, but I later realized that she took it more seriously. That and I'm starting to think that you might be right, that making the folks at Massively angry with us is probably not the wisest thing to do. So I apologized.

And it's pretty damn freaking obvious why a screenshot of City of Heroes was included in an article talking about MMO closure.

Yeah, fair enough. And frankly I hope that CoH continues to get mentioned anywhere anyone talks about an MMO closing.

But that's not what this article was about. This article is entitled: "Your MMO is going to die, and that's OK"

This article isn't about MMO's dying. This article is all about telling me that it's ok that CoH is dead. But you know what? I don't care if the folks at Massively want me to move on and start clicking on some of their ads so they get more ad revenue, or play other games so that they'll get more credibility with the game publishers. It's not 'ok' with me that CoH died and I'm not 'ok' with Massively repeatedly telling me that it's 'ok.'

I'm sure the folks at Massively had to know that a title like that was going to generate some heat, and since it also got them the page hits that they so obviously crave, my sympathy for any of their feelings that I may have hurt only goes so far.

[Peregrine Falcon]

Here's something interesting. Victor Barreiro, of mmorpg.com, wrote an article in response to the Massively article in the OP.

The Devil's Advocate: Dead MMOs and Emotional Connections

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/7396/The-Devils-Advocate-Dead-MMOs-and-Emotional-Connections.html

He talks about his reaction to Mike Foster's article on Massively, and why he disagrees with it.

[dwturducken]

Yeah, I just made a thread for that. Maybe I should have been less silly with the subject line...

[FatherXmas]

But that's not what this article was about. This article is entitled: "Your MMO is going to die, and that's OK"

This article isn't about MMO's dying. This article is all about telling me that it's ok that CoH is dead. But you know what?

The article can be summarized by the following lines.

The side effect of this online requirement is that every online game, no matter how popular it may be at the moment, has a finite lifespan. Eventually, your favorite game is going to die.

This is a good thing. Here's why.

[snip] - (heart of piece)

One of the stupidest things about being a person is that we really like doing the same things over and over. Comfort and familiarity are more enjoyable for us than fear and insecurity, so we stick with what we know. As long as our favorite MMO keeps chugging out expansions or new content updates, we're content to let our gaming tastes languish in a stagnant pool of familiar mechanics and ages-old macros.

All of this changes when a game shuts down. Suddenly, we're thrust out of our comfort zone and forced to find a new game to play -- sometimes even with (gasp!) new people. We find ourselves dumped from the noble rank of legendary healer to the drudges of serving as a noobish spaceship captain, and this scares the living hell out of us and makes us long for the days when we knew what our keybindings did and our mounts were prohibitively expensive.

Sure, we miss our characters, their assets, and those old familiar settings. But every hour we spend in our normal MMO is an hour we could have spent experiencing something completely new. Something different. Something that challenged us as people and as gamers. Not all new experiences are good -- some are awful -- but living a full (gaming) life is all about stepping out of our little boxes and forcing ourselves into the unknown. Even bad experiences are valuable.

When a game dies, the publisher helps us start new adventures by shoving us out the door.

[snip]

Every MMO player is a phoenix. Every shutdown is a flame. We carry our memories forward, reborn from the ashes as new avatars in new worlds. Our digital experiences, much like our real-life ones, are special because of their impermanence, because they are fleeting.

So when the time comes for your game to go dark, do not mourn. Don't create a thousand-page forum thread explaining why the publisher/developer is evil. Just say your goodbyes and prepare yourself for the next great adventure.

MMOs die. Stories end. But we players live forever.

I can understand why the article upset you.  That next to last paragraph could be looked at as directed at us specifically as oppose to anyone who felt passionately about their game and are upset at their closure.  I'm sure that hate threads were found on the boards for Star Wars Galaxies, The Matrix, Glitch, Warhammer Online, Earth and Beyond.  It's only natural.

And I can see why you and others think it's a get out of jail free card to publishers.  But it's not about telling publishers that it's OK to shut down their games.

What I see is as an attempt at trying to comfort players after their game is gone.  I know right now you and others aren't going to like these analogies but here goes.  It's like a parent giving the "change is scary/but you will make new friends" speech after you tell them the family is moving.  It's like a friend/family member giving the "I know right now it feels like you will never be able to fill that hole in your heart but in time you will meet someone new" post breakup speech.  It's HR's "look at this as an opportunity" exit interview speech.  In all three cases something out of your control happens and someone tries to help you to come to terms with it.  I know, you don't want to leave your friends, you want that person to take you back, you like working there, but that's not your decision to make anymore.  Now it's about coming to terms with what happened. 

Mike's take on MMO closures is that of a foodie when a restaurant they like closes.  Sadness still but also excitement to try out new places.  Me, I'm the guy who grumbles and begrudgingly looks for a replacement.  I liked the food, I liked the staff, I liked being recognized when I walk in.

[dwturducken]

When my wife's and my favorite restaurant closed (actually, they moved to Minneapolis, but splitting hairs), we started figuring out how to make some of our favorite dishes from their menu. 

[FatherXmas]

Here's something interesting. Victor Barreiro, of mmorpg.com, wrote an article in response to the Massively article in the OP.

The Devil's Advocate: Dead MMOs and Emotional Connections

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/7396/The-Devils-Advocate-Dead-MMOs-and-Emotional-Connections.html

He talks about his reaction to Mike Foster's article on Massively, and why he disagrees with it.

Mike is like that guy who after breaking up from a long term relationship can find someone new in a week or two and start another long term relationship.  As someone who can't do that I question how could another person do that.  Didn't the previous relationship have any meaning for them?  How could they just move on so quickly?  It's not that they are horrible people (well maybe some are), it's just that they can accept the situation and move past it.  It's just a way to deal with an emotional scar, quickly fill it with something else.  It still hurts when you think back on it but that's the past.  You can't change what happened but you can live in the present.

A lot of us can't do that easily.  A lot of us preserve these scars.  Build little shrines around them.  Take them out every so often and play them back like an old sad movie.  Perhaps this is the far opposite end of the scale from Mike point of view, I'm sure there is plenty of degrees between these two points of view.  And as I've stated before, this is grief we are feeling.  And some of us can work though it faster than others.  And those of us who take longer, tend to become angry with those who can.

[ukaserex]

I'm seeing both sides to this coin - but when I read the article, it seemed to me like the writer was trying to comfort, not provoke.

But, hey, we each have our own filters that we see things through, and for each of us, perception is our reality.

[JaguarX]

Mike is like that guy who after breaking up from a long term relationship can find someone new in a week or two and start another long term relationship.  As someone who can't do that I question how could another person do that.  Didn't the previous relationship have any meaning for them?  How could they just move on so quickly?  It's not that they are horrible people (well maybe some are), it's just that they can accept the situation and move past it.  It's just a way to deal with an emotional scar, quickly fill it with something else.  It still hurts when you think back on it but that's the past.  You can't change what happened but you can live in the present.

A lot of us can't do that easily.  A lot of us preserve these scars.  Build little shrines around them.  Take them out every so often and play them back like an old sad movie.  Perhaps this is the far opposite end of the scale from Mike point of view, I'm sure there is plenty of degrees between these two points of view.  And as I've stated before, this is grief we are feeling.  And some of us can work though it faster than others.  And those of us who take longer, tend to become angry with those who can.

hear hear.

And that is where a lot of the fire being thrown around at the other side seems to come from. Some seem to dont understand and or become angry when someone can move on quicker than them.











But the funny thing, I see a few people complaining there are too many "negative move on" articles about COX. Prior to that outside of here, there was common complaints of there being too much praising of post-COX. So I decided to do a count. And in reality there are many more articles praising this movement, the game, the community, and how the shutdown sucked more than those two or three depending on how it's counted articles about moving on. SaveCOXers are not the only readers of massively and yet, certain people seem so self-centered to thing they are the only readers and massively is supposed to cater to us, when we say, how we say, and what we say. I doubt we even make up ten percent of our readers and I dont think majority of us have that mindset at all. Sure they will write some things that is coodles to savecox and the effort but some things will be "alright, look, is it time to move on?" And to tell you the truth, trying to twist that article especially as "oh he mentioned COX and used ONE pic that means the entire article is about us." Is really a slap i nthe face to those other games that have been shut down and those players that know like we know what it's like to be kicked off and those devs of those teams that also lost their jobs. It looks very self-centered as if COX is the only game that is worthy of mentioning that has been shutdown. I thought our goal was to get people together especially the ones that went through a shutdown and maybe eventually change how MMO companies shutdown games and if they even should? Looks like many dont give a crap about what other players went through or if their game got shut down all they care about is that COX got shutdown, screw everyone else. And all the while doing it under the premise as someone who supports Savecox movement. Last I check to my understanding while COX did get shutdown, it's more than about COX in these company practices and overall about MMO players that have to go through that. What happened to gettign the word out so other players dont have to go through the shutdown. What happened to the PLAYERS Bill of Rights?  And on that article and people making it all about COX and some people general behavior really do seriously, play into exactly the type of behavior that many of our dissenters been saying about us. Seriously, cool it. There is way to get the point across without being a total d-wad about it. And if ya must, it's a free country, please leave savecox and Titan out of it because most of us are not like that and do not act like that and it is not an image I dont think most of us want to portay. OK done with the rant. Thanks for listening. 

[RioJustice]

Didn't bother reading the article... I don't care, I've read a dozen like it before. Each one is the same: The author is stressing over the fact that people are trying to revive something that they lost. Apparently this irks them so much they have to write whole columns and spend ages preaching against whatever it is...Simply because it didn't happen to them and thus doesn't matter.

To anyone who wants the COH community to keel over and die.... Get over it. Ain't gonna happen.

Exactly.  Thanks for verbalizing the sentiments of those of us staying in touch through other venues.  We miss CoH because it provided a unique blend of attributes ranging from amazing movement capabilities and freedom of movement among zones to a wonderful collaboration of friends that is not available elsewhere.  We remain regardless.

[Little David]

Personally speaking, Mike's article (and the majority of responses to the rebuttal posted by The Devil's Advocate) irk me for a number of reasons. This could also be said of the usual peanut's gallery that hangs around every CoH article on Massively.

#1. Not everyone who is a long-time player of an MMO plays only that MMO, and thus is not incapable or unwilling of trying new things. I tend to play MMOs in cycles. I might pay and play for one for a few months, then get on another, and come back to the original one a few months afterward. My love for games like City of Heroes didn't stop me at all from wanting to try out other new MMOs that interested me, and I highly resent the implication that being a loyal fan of an older MMO is mutually exclusive of trying new games out.

#2. I completely understand that MMOs require a steady flow of income to operate. They've got to pay the utulity bills at the very least. MMOs that can't support their own financial weight will collapse. There's a big difference between that and someone up in corporate kicking the whole thing down, though.  Not that it seems to matter to Mike and the cruder naysayers the CoH community's had to endure. I get the impression that any MMO, regardless of how long it's lived (or how brief in many cases) or how much new content or revamps it was getting, is automatically seen by them as a worthless dinosaur that only people wearing nostalgia goggles could love.

More than that though, Mike's line of thinking fully embraces the idea of games are strictly a service and not a product. Before MMOs became a thing, games were nothing but products. If you bought a copy, you owned that copy. It was yours. And provided you still have the hardware to play it, you can pull it out any time you like and enjoy the game once again. You can't do that when an MMO is killed off, unless the company either publicly releases server software to its community or does something else to ensure it lives on.

I think the most disturbing thing was seeing one of Mike's supporters commenting on Victor's rebuttal, showing their disapproval for people who fight to keep favorite MMOs alive by comparing them to historic buildings that "should" be knocked down to build something "new and better." I really don't want to see society adopt a Brave New World ephemeral mentality.

#3. The popular naysayers' mentality that "MMOs die, grow up and get over it, go play the latest new shiny" is only going to encourage publishing companies to treat all games this way. Electronic Arts has already attempted this with the latest SimCity. Maxis tried to do PR damage control by announcing "In many ways, we built an MMO."

I can't help but think that Electronic Arts is trying to take advantage of gamers' attitudes towards MMOs with a claim like that. Banking on people to forgive the unreliable servers, the bugs and glitches, the removal of features just to try and get the servers to manage the load properly just because they say it's an MMO. I don't think it'll stop there, either. If they decide to pull the plug on the SimCity servers a few years from now, no big deal! It was an MMO, MMOs die, that's a good thing! All you upset SimCity gamers should grow up and play with the latest shiny toy.

[LaughingAlex]

Whats saddening is how mmo's are treated in general as a game genre that should remain in the 1990s.  City of heroes, turns out was way ahead of it's time, almost a good decade.  It kind of remained that way to, and I think thats what people truely overlook about the game.  And because of that it does have potential to be saved, and showed alot of signs that it could.  The servers were indeed PACKED when CoH was shut down.  And there are people who still protest that it shouldn't have been even developers say it shouldn't have been shut down.  Only a few people and people who generally disliked CoX are saying it was shut down cause it was a bad game even though everything else says otherwise.  I see City of heroes in the same light as fallout.  Fallout is a game series that came back alive and very well to, CoX's revival may well be more popular than it was before it was "killed".  I only ask that it doesn't end up "just another mmo that requires me to have a tank and a healer in every situation", but that it stay true to itself.

[JaguarX]

Whats saddening is how mmo's are treated in general as a game genre that should remain in the 1990s.  City of heroes, turns out was way ahead of it's time, almost a good decade.  It kind of remained that way to, and I think thats what people truely overlook about the game.  And because of that it does have potential to be saved, and showed alot of signs that it could.  The servers were indeed PACKED when CoH was shut down.  And there are people who still protest that it shouldn't have been even developers say it shouldn't have been shut down.  Only a few people and people who generally disliked CoX are saying it was shut down cause it was a bad game even though everything else says otherwise.  I see City of heroes in the same light as fallout.  Fallout is a game series that came back alive and very well to, CoX's revival may well be more popular than it was before it was "killed".  I only ask that it doesn't end up "just another mmo that requires me to have a tank and a healer in every situation", but that it stay true to itself.

Yeah the servers was packed when it went black. But kind of too late. It should of been packed long before. Hindsight is 20/20 though. How would the people that left prior knew that others left and the ame wouldn't be there when they returned? They couldn't have. But like a relationship when on says its over its sometimes too late to buy flowers for the first time when they arrive with moving truck to retrieve their stuff. AP33 should have been long time ago. While it was a very noble gesture and show of force, it also showed many wouldn't have bothered logging on in large number if shutdown wasn't imminent. In short the servers should have been packed all along.

[Lightslinger]

Funny story about AP33 and one of the unsung heroes of our game...that most people hated Don't worry he liked the hate.

Tommy played the game...unlike most of you. He liked having the biggest, most garish, offensive to the eyes as possible characters he could create. Tommy was once banned from a costume contest for simply arriving. Seriously all he was doing was standing around, his costumes were that good, HA! He enjoyed schadenfreude and was a lot of fun to play with. Tommy was also a goon, so was I :duck:

On the night of the vigil APs started spawning like crazy. The goons decided to see how many APs we could help create, so along with people just logging in for the vigil, the goons started filling one AP, spawning the next then all of us moving on. I'm not saying there wouldn't have been 33 APs without the goons helped, but we definitely sped it up.

That night after the vigil AP33 was a success, but as everyone started logging off Tommy parked his Huge model, rainbow themed character at the tram so AP33 would not disappear. On two occasions he did searches and was the only one in the zone. AP33 remained and quickly became a symbol we as a community latched on to. That symbol would not have persisted if it weren't for Tommy, or what one person on the official forums called "the horror at the train station".

[JaguarX]

Funny story about AP33 and one of the unsung heroes of our game...that most people hated Don't worry he liked the hate.

Tommy played the game...unlike most of you. He liked having the biggest, most garish, offensive to the eyes as possible characters he could create. Tommy was once banned from a costume contest for simply arriving. Seriously all he was doing was standing around, his costumes were that good, HA! He enjoyed schadenfreude and was a lot of fun to play with. Tommy was also a goon, so was I :duck:

On the night of the vigil APs started spawning like crazy. The goons decided to see how many APs we could help create, so along with people just logging in for the vigil, the goons started filling one AP, spawning the next then all of us moving on. I'm not saying there wouldn't have been 33 APs without the goons helped, but we definitely sped it up.

That night after the vigil AP33 was a success, but as everyone started logging off Tommy parked his Huge model, rainbow themed character at the tram so AP33 would not disappear. On two occasions he did searches and was the only one in the zone. AP33 remained and quickly became a symbol we as a community latched on to. That symbol would not have persisted if it weren't for Tommy, or what one person on the official forums called "the horror at the train station".

 

[MaidMercury]

yea, move onto a new game, like Tabula Rasa.........oh, wait that failed.
or move onto a new game, like Star Wars Galaxies........oh, wait that failed.
or move onto a new game, like Sims Online........oh, wait that failed.

any other experts to tell us what's hip and happ'nin?



well, there's always my  favorite....Mahjong.

[Captain Electric]

Funny story about AP33 and one of the unsung heroes of our game...that most people hated Don't worry he liked the hate.

Tommy played the game...unlike most of you. He liked having the biggest, most garish, offensive to the eyes as possible characters he could create. Tommy was once banned from a costume contest for simply arriving. Seriously all he was doing was standing around, his costumes were that good, HA! He enjoyed schadenfreude and was a lot of fun to play with. Tommy was also a goon, so was I :duck:

On the night of the vigil APs started spawning like crazy. The goons decided to see how many APs we could help create, so along with people just logging in for the vigil, the goons started filling one AP, spawning the next then all of us moving on. I'm not saying there wouldn't have been 33 APs without the goons helped, but we definitely sped it up.

That night after the vigil AP33 was a success, but as everyone started logging off Tommy parked his Huge model, rainbow themed character at the tram so AP33 would not disappear. On two occasions he did searches and was the only one in the zone. AP33 remained and quickly became a symbol we as a community latched on to. That symbol would not have persisted if it weren't for Tommy, or what one person on the official forums called "the horror at the train station".

I got a laugh out of that.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Heh, I remember the rainbow guy.  He's in a couple demos of mine, I think...

[Nightwatch]

The problem isn't letting COH go, it's finding a suitable replacement. I think this is what many people are missing. I have come to terms with COH being gone, I have accepted that it may not ever come back. That's fine, that is me letting it go. What I can't seem to let go of is the fact that there's nothing out there at the moment close to COH. I think this is where people are missing the point that COH fans have been trying to make. Sure we want the game back OR we want a game that, at least plays like COH did. I see nothing wrong with wanting that, COH was one of the best super-hero games out there. Many would agree on that and sure there are other super hero games (not many) but they aren't even close to what COH was. I honestly wish people would realize that it's not necessarily about letting go of COH, it's about letting go of playing a good solid game that you could actually enjoy. I know that it wasn't for everyone and that there are some who would argue and say the game was terrible but that can be said for any game, not everyone will enjoy the same things. So yes I agree we can let COH go, once we get an acceptable substitute, until then we can miss and want COH as much as we want!

This +1.
I've never really been a gamer; more of a comics nerd .. for 50 years.  Have tried other games but ther is nothing that attracts me now as much as CoX has.

[Pinnacle Blue]

This +1.
I've never really been a gamer; more of a comics nerd .. for 50 years.  Have tried other games but ther is nothing that attracts me now as much as CoX has.

I tried Everquest.  I'm letting my subscription lapse.  The community there is just... lacking.

[thunderforce]

I tried Everquest.  I'm letting my subscription lapse.  The community there is just... lacking.

But they got one thing right; Everquest is still running. It's still actively developed; it started last century, but the last content release was after the black dawn over Paragon City.

That article misses a fundamental point, if you're a corporate; keep people's favourite MMO going, it costs you 10% of nothing, and they give you money - never mind if they don't then go on to new story experiences, you don't care about _that_, you like money.

That's what I never understood about the black dawn. If they'd fired the entire development team and kept it ticking over - well, I wouldn't approve, but it would make sense. This was an act of vandalism.