So what exactly is the legal status of the EULA?

[Codewalker]

Meaning that the legalities of a private server cannot and probably should not be answered as if it's a definate "yes, it's totally legal and nothing NCSoft can do about it." when it's probably not and more gray than not. Which is my main point.

I for one have said repeatedly (paraphrasing): Reverse Engineering is definitely legal. Hosting a server in which you deliver content (missions, stories, etc) that is covered by NCSoft Copyright is infringement. Whether they are legal or not doesn't change the fact that NCSoft might decide to threaten or even sue you for either one.

[JaguarX]

I for one have said repeatedly (paraphrasing): Reverse Engineering is definitely legal. Hosting a server in which you deliver content (missions, stories, etc) that is covered by NCSoft Copyright is infringement. Whether they are legal or not doesn't change the fact that NCSoft might decide to threaten or even sue you for either one.

exactly

[JaguarX]

Have you HEARD of the Church of Scientology?

Actually I cant say I heard of them.

I'm not religious and dont follow religions.

[TonyV]

I've gotta say, I'm not particularly worried about this.  The practical situation is that I don't think that NCsoft cares one bit about any extracurricular activity going on around the game.  I'm pretty sure that if they've given this any thought at all (and I'm pretty sure they haven't), they realize that without selling the IP to another company, they have thoroughly poisoned the goodwill of any market for anything having to do with City of Heroes while it's in their possession.  I'm sure they still list it as an asset on company documents and whatnot, but it's not like anything we do can devalue that property.  They devalued it themselves to practically $0 on August 31, 2012.

If NCsoft wanted to pursue anything, the worst they'd do is send a C&D letter.  And I kinda doubt they'd do that, because as soon as they did, I would be yelling from the mountaintops, and the gaming and tech press tends to cover that kind of thing pretty thoroughly.  If they just went totally off their rockers and decide to mount a full-out lawsuit against anyone here--which would be about five miles past unprecedented --they would have to prove some sort of damages suffered because of our actions.  Given that they deliberately chose to shut down the game and everything we've done has been in reaction to that decision, they'd really have bupkiss to go after us on.  Worse, if by some weird chance they lost, it would set a legal precedent that is extremely unfavorable to the gaming industry as a whole.  In other words, they have everything to lose and absolutely nothing to gain by doing so.

So I'm really, really, really not worried about this.  The discussion in this thread is filed squarely in my bin of philosophical mental exercises of no practical significance whatsoever.

Also, regarding the legal cases cited above, the thing is, these precise circumstances have never been tested legally.  If you dig long enough and hard enough, you can find plenty cases to support either side of the "is this legal?" argument.  And that's precisely what the lawyers would do if it came to that.  They'd each go off and find cases that support their arguments, air those arguments and cases out in court, and a judge and/or jury would suss out which most closely align to this situation.  And then the other side would appeal it, and then the other other side would appeal it, and ten or fifteen years down the road, someone would win and people playing games in 2025 would now have new rules to play by.

[Joshex]

I've said this before;

the easiest solution to this situation is to make a P2P server, Peer to Peer.

in short codewalker is already doing the ground work, all we need is a stand allone game client, one that can interpret battles and spawns and statistics and physics on it own.

then when you select a 'server' to log-in under, you aren't actually on a server, instead you broadcast 'SERVER-NAME + FUNCTION' to any and all participants as and when interactive information is required. if you select 'protector' then you will be completely invisible to people who select 'virtue' because each one is listed as it's own entity.

individual players comps will handle thier own stats and physics and battle calcs, NPCS and enemies would be calculated by whomever calculates and uploads the information first.

yeah it would be a bit laggy, but at least there wont be a D/C, you can't D/C from your own computer lol. well.. You can but you have to try hard to mess something up.

We can still legally save game save information to a real server. as it's not actually the entire game/server it would be no different than uploading a document to a file host.

[Eoraptor]

Legally speaking, City of X exists in a bit of a gray area. On the one hand it's protected by contract law in the form of the EULA we all clicked off on to play the game. And also by Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which makes reverse engineering it without permission technically illegal. (DMCA is under challenge all the time, which is why I use the T word)

On the other hand, the clients on the internet are perfectly legal to possess as they were freely distributed by the company, and I don't remember the EULA specifying they be deleted if the game were discontinued. those files can no more be made illegal than a free AOL CD can. And also, lots of City of Heroes material exists on the internet, including the CityofHeroes.ca website, billions of screen captures of the environment, copyrighted characters, interface, etc... If NCSoft wants to protect its copyrights, it has to tred carefully on the existence of all of these items.

Fair Use law indicates that since the client software was freely distributed, that we are all still free to use it as we see fit so long as those uses are not-for-profit. The problem is that the game in its native state requires an active game server, and those were NOT given out freely by NCSoft, so creating one would either require DMCA-violating reverse engineering (yes this is going on) or direct theft of the code from NCSoft. in other words, both illegal.

on the yet another hand, there is such a thing as abandoned property law. and it can be applied to electronics and data. after a certain amount of time, if a company, publisher, developer, distributor, etc, has done nothing with a product that is already in the public sphere... and refuses to provide active support, warranty service, etc, on it... then that product can be considered abandoned, and thus public domain. There is an entire market out there for abandonware videogames... and right now, approaching one year after closing, the clock is ticking on the abandonware timer.

In general, the EULA is effective in law right this very moment, but since the isn't an active game, it's legal force is very limited. personally, I don't have the money to hire lawyers to sort out the more finite legal minutia, but a good lawyer could make a case that the game is either abandoned, or viable for fair-use-protection on private servers so long as no money at all is involved... but don't quote me on that.

[JaguarX]

Legally speaking, City of X exists in a bit of a gray area. On the one hand it's protected by contract law in the form of the EULA we all clicked off on to play the game. And also by Digital Millenium Copyright ct, which maches reverse engineering it without permission technically illegal. (DMCA is uder challenge all the time, which is why I use the T word)

On the other hand, the clients on the internet are perfectly legal to posses as they were freely distributed by the company, and I don't remember the EULA specifying they be deleted if the game were discontinued. those files can no more be made illegal than a free AOL CD can. And also, lots of City of Heroes material exists on the internet, including the CityofHeroes.ca website, billions of screen captures of the environment, copyrighted characters, interface, etc... If NCSoft wants to protect its copyrights, it has to tred carefully on the existence of all of these items.

Fair Use law indicates that since the client software was freely distributed, that we are all still free to use it as we see fit so long as those uses are not-for-profit. The problem is that the game in its native state requires an active game server, and those were NOT given out freely by NCSoft, so creating one would either require DMCA-violating reverse engineering (yes this is going on) or direct theft of the code from NCSoft. in other words, both illegal.

on the other hand, there is such a thing as abandoned property law. and it can be applied to electronics and data. after a certain amount of time, if a company, publisher, developer, distributor, etc, has done nothing with a product that is already in the public sphere... and refuses to provide active support, warranty service, etc, on it... then that product can be considered abandoned, and thus public domain. There is an entire market out there for abandonware videogames... and right now, approaching one year after closing, the clock is ticking on the abandonware timer.

In general, the EULA is effective in law right this very moment, but since the isn't an active game, it's legal force is very limited. personally, I don't hae the money to hire lawyers to sort out the more finite legal minutia, but a good lawyer could make a case that the game is either abandoned, or viable for fair-use-protection on private servers so long as no money at all is involved... but don't quote me on that.

Yup.


The time is ticking but it aint up yet. Althugh I wouldnt be surprised if they put out a token COX product or something to say they are legally still using it.

The shady part is that ncsoft havent said yay or nay or anyword at least publically about the plans. Which may mean they have no plan or may mean they have plans and just decided to not make a statement yet or not sure what to do with it yet. Just because they havent doesnt mean they dont have plans is also some people should keep in mind but at the same time thye very well may have no plans. Who knows, but it's early to tell. It's easy to not have plans "officially" but when it's time to sue, there is an entire plan laid out and that person jeopardized millions of dollars worth of planning and they probably have the cash to take even the sliver of evidence and make it their case against the average joe that may be lucky to have enough for a lawyer that wont immediately put in a proverbial "plea bargain". Even if they, prior didnt have a single plan and or hada plan and put it on ice until "proper opportunity" like many businesses do, but the average joe aint got enough money for a lawyer to prove otherwise.

But even the no-money thing can get tricky especially when there is solicitation for "donations" to keep the server running or the likes. All it takes is one person to offer money for the service, and if the provider of said private server accepts, they have legally accepted money for the product and it's no longer ran in a no-money collected fashion. So best thing in that case is to accept no money under any circumstances even if someone insists. Tell them to enjoy the game, appreciate the offer, but no thanks. Assuming that would the only legal speed bump. And of course be wary of websites that list private servers but require membership fee or the likes. Even if the actual private server isnt collecting money, it can get caught in the legal crossfire. Which can result in shutdown. And given the rate, the slow rate these things pop up, it would be a major set back and months before another one gets going assuming it's known of.

[GuyPerfect]

And also by Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which makes reverse engineering it without permission technically illegal.

The DMCA only safeguards against reverse engineering when it's used to circumvent digital protection measures implemented by the copyright owner. City of Heroes does not make use of copy protection in any form whatsoever, so the DMCA will never apply to it in any conceivable context. Ever. Period. Full stop. End of story.

Further reading:

US Code Title 17, Chapter 12: Copyright Protection and Management Systems

[JaguarX]

The DMCA only safeguards against reverse engineering when it's used to circumvent digital protection measures implemented by the copyright owner. City of Heroes does not make use of copy protection in any form whatsoever, so the DMCA will never apply to it in any conceivable context. Ever. Period. Full stop. End of story.

Further reading:

US Code Title 17, Chapter 12: Copyright Protection and Management Systems

yeah. but the other laws still apply. they can reverse engineeer it but the copright, trademarks, and IP still remains in effect.

Instead of city of heroes, it's Town of Supers, and instead of statesman it's Sovereignman, instead of Lord Recluse it's Lord Arachnid.

[Peregrine Falcon]

I for one have said repeatedly (paraphrasing): Reverse Engineering is definitely legal. Hosting a server in which you deliver content (missions, stories, etc) that is covered by NCSoft Copyright is infringement. Whether they are legal or not doesn't change the fact that NCSoft might decide to threaten or even sue you for either one.

Absolutely correct. However, even though it's been repeatedly determined that running your own server is legal, and it's the copyrighted mission content that would actually get you in trouble, that doesn't actually prevent NCSoft from suing.

Which is why I've always recommended that, if a private server gets running, it should be put up on servers that are physically located in a country that ignores US law. Like Russia for instance.

If NCsoft wanted to pursue anything, the worst they'd do is send a C&D letter.

I believe this to be the case as well. I also believe it's unlikely they'd actually sue because of the possibility that they might lose. It's possible that a judge could rule that since NCSoft isn't actively using their copyrighted material, the CoH missions/lore, that they have no interest in keeping it and therefore people who have a legally purchased copy of CoH are allowed to create and run a private server.

Don't get me wrong, it's not likely that a judge would make this ruling, but it's possible. And if a judge does make this ruling it would set a precedent that would affect all MMO companies. I believe that this is why SOE entered into an agreement with the SWG-EMU folks allowing them to run their private server so long as the players have a legally purchased copy of SWG.

[Joshex]

Legally speaking, City of X exists in a bit of a gray area. On the one hand it's protected by contract law in the form of the EULA we all clicked off on to play the game. And also by Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which makes reverse engineering it without permission technically illegal. (DMCA is under challenge all the time, which is why I use the T word)

On the other hand, the clients on the internet are perfectly legal to possess as they were freely distributed by the company, and I don't remember the EULA specifying they be deleted if the game were discontinued. those files can no more be made illegal than a free AOL CD can. And also, lots of City of Heroes material exists on the internet, including the CityofHeroes.ca website, billions of screen captures of the environment, copyrighted characters, interface, etc... If NCSoft wants to protect its copyrights, it has to tred carefully on the existence of all of these items.

Fair Use law indicates that since the client software was freely distributed, that we are all still free to use it as we see fit so long as those uses are not-for-profit. The problem is that the game in its native state requires an active game server, and those were NOT given out freely by NCSoft, so creating one would either require DMCA-violating reverse engineering (yes this is going on) or direct theft of the code from NCSoft. in other words, both illegal.

I hate to poke a little at this but, Zone-sama is an example of fair use. Fair use is no only for 'not for protfit' orgs, it's also allowed to be used For Profit in the case that you can prove the owning company would never make efforts to develop something to the same degree you are. for example a pornographic city of heroes server would be a distinct exception to the rule on the basis that NCSoft would never in a million years do that.

if they take you to court over it they are basically opening themselves up for a huge shaming fiasco the moment your lawyer asks them "given the chance, would you make a pornographic version of city of heroes?"

if NCSoft says Yes - they wont hear the end of it as the worlds media and angry parents condemn them and vow to force thier kids and themselves to never play NCSoft titles again as they are all obviously a bunch of sick perverts. -This is conditional I am not actually calling them sick perverts.

if NCSoft is smart they would drop thier case in that instance after a clear "No, Never! we are commited to designing games for all audiences"

also, again, it's a Terms Of Service, not a legally binding agreement based on present international or national laws.

Also why does no one even listen to me about a Peer to Peer server, if you don't believe me then look it up, sheesh do I have to spell it out?

You download the installation files from a torrent. the installation will have an auto run patcher which connects to another torrent to check for updates and downloads them to a pre-specified folder.

There is no Server or Host

You use your ISP as a broadcast point or temporary relay, this relay is utilized in connecting with other users in the same fashion that Torrents work, instead of connecting to a Server you use a 'Tracker' which is broadcast by your application during use.

For example CoH peer to peer might broadcast it's own unique address or IP; http://tracker.cityofheroesp2p.net:6969/Cityofheroes/Servername

the city of hereoes listing before server name would be utilized for calls for cross server stuff like chatting to Globals and Consignments and possibly in the future: incarnate trials (getting a magisterium going would be much easier if there were some cross server way to do it.)

so bassically anyone who runs the client becomes a seeder and a peer, constantly sending and recieving battle and movement information from other players calculations so everything sums up and everyone has the same experience.

do I need to be more clear?

[Mantic]

The main problem with your distributed server mechanism is that you are demanding bucketloads of bandwidth from USERS and introducing a dynamic latency factor that would screw up everyone's game experience. Mind you, I've thought of similar methods for other types of games where latency is not an issue and agree that it's a worthy technology, but in the case of a conventional realtime MMO it would be awful. Especially if you realize that most of the hardcore dedicated players of CoH seem to have been rural types (I suspect there's a contempt of familiarity at work there -- urbanites not being as interested in a fantasy about running around a modern city, and ruralites yawning at the prospect of a fantasy about running around the woods), whose internet access is typically overpriced and problematic.

As for the legality question, I tend to take the attitude that RE project developers should operate as if the activity is undoubtedly illegal, staying out of the spotlight and not trying to attract a lot of attention to themselves, while doing everything possible to cover themselves from legal reprisal if the effort comes. What end-users assume is their own problem, because no matter how upset they might get about those assumptions, there's no scenario in which emulator developers should have any liability for user butthurt.

Also, I don't see what Scientology has to do with anything, and I co not doubt for a moment NCSoft's willingness to publish City of Pornography. City of Scientology, however, they might have reservations about.... so what do we know about Xenu?

[Energy Aura]

I'll have to agree with a combination of the posts...

1.  I agree with TonyV...Legal action seems VERY dubious at best.
2.  Joshex I've said the same thing before...IP servers hosted by individuals with Diablo 2 type connection.  Thus being on "my" server requires and invite/my access IP.  Getting there by hacking me is illegal.
3. Everything GuyPerfect said.

My hope is for:
1. A small individual server that we can all have for our individual play, and a method to interact via remote access to play with others.
2. Character data saved on local machines so individuals can use their characters on other servers.  (I personally will build a "TF Server" for doing the large TFs (i.e. Incarnate Trials).)
3. A static (local) WW/BM that acts like beta having component items for sale.
4. SG Bases and AE...

Now just wondering and I don't expect an answer...If there "ever" was a new server and it was based on BETA I24, wouldn't the "free stuff" on BETA (i.e. Paragon Market) be a given or would that be a programmed deal?  If it was a programmed issue, could it be made to use game INF to buy stuff?  Thus avoiding real cash.  As a matter of fact, ALL items in game should be for INF.

Well here's to the mystery programmers trying to get all of us back to the game that has no equal. Your efforts are truly HEROIC ! ! !

[JaguarX]

Absolutely correct. However, even though it's been repeatedly determined that running your own server is legal, and it's the copyrighted mission content that would actually get you in trouble, that doesn't actually prevent NCSoft from suing.

Which is why I've always recommended that, if a private server gets running, it should be put up on servers that are physically located in a country that ignores US law. Like Russia for instance.
I believe this to be the case as well. I also believe it's unlikely they'd actually sue because of the possibility that they might lose. It's possible that a judge could rule that since NCSoft isn't actively using their copyrighted material, the CoH missions/lore, that they have no interest in keeping it and therefore people who have a legally purchased copy of CoH are allowed to create and run a private server.

Don't get me wrong, it's not likely that a judge would make this ruling, but it's possible. And if a judge does make this ruling it would set a precedent that would affect all MMO companies. I believe that this is why SOE entered into an agreement with the SWG-EMU folks allowing them to run their private server so long as the players have a legally purchased copy of SWG.

true but even proving they have no interest in or no plans on keeping it or what ever just yet. A car that sits for a day (legally parked) isnt considered abandoned because someone is itching to get it for free and figure since the owner aint used it in a day they must not want it.  It's too early. They havent said a plan yet, that we know of, but really with all the fuss, they probably wont communicate any of their plans dealing with that stuff just yet. 

But at the same time, they might not have any plans yet or no plans for the future.


And yeah a server in some place like Russia would work but there are downsides. On paper many of those countries looks like easy  pickings but there are a lot of stuff else to consider like internal regulations and information flow may not be, as free flowing as in many other places due to said regulations in some countries. Russia, I dont think there wil many problems that may arise besides the initial hesitation of clicking on a site  many issues or link that says COX but have some unheard of strange Russian address to it.

But I think the peer 2 peer idea would suffice and with no worries and while being low key.





But it's not likely they will sue, probably more likely that even if they do sue they wont see much of the money anyways. Anyone have 500,000- couple of million hanging around? If anything they probably have good chance of winning. Remember most judges are not gamers, they probably dont give a crap about "game coimmunities and closeness of the people and relationships over games" and some even think games are part of the decay of society and looking for any way to do their part in ridding of  "that problem". Not to mention, on paper depending on how it's written it could easily look like a bunch of people who is trying to make off with the works of others. But probably worse that will happen is a C&D because even if they sue the crap out of someone and run them into bankruptcy, that is money they will never see and still have to pay their own legal team. Yeah they probably wont but within the world of NCSOFT and COX I've seen very slim chance stuff happen that was at one point dubious but when it happened, it was "what in the world"?


But either way, try some stuff and see what happens. Who knows. NCSOFT may not even give a crap. Or they might be watching like a hawk collecting data and looking at posts to prove it was with intent to do something illegal and the person knew it was illegal. Who knows. The worse thing that can happen if something dont pop up is years down the line saying we should of could would of... Dont let that happen if there is a chance besides, eventually that RE loophole when it comes to digital media may not be there forever.