Author Topic: I'm kinda torn here  (Read 7803 times)

FatherXmas

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2013, 08:23:53 AM »
Now, whether you think that's good or bad is up to you. But don't lie to yourself. If you show up to play the game, you're supporting the studio and the publisher. Directly, indirectly, intentions don't matter. The publisher will value your participation. If you're a fan or you're just not concerned about all this, then it doesn't matter. But if it matters to you and you know it, don't give yourself something to feel regretful about later.

The studio did not wrong me.  The publisher in NA, NC Interactive, did not wrong me.  So I hold them no grudge.

The people who wronged me are across the Pacific.  Sure they own 100% of the holding company that holds 100% of both ArenaNet and NC Interactive.  And sure the sales and profits earned from GW2 has giving those people a much needed boost to help them redeem their reputation among the stock analysts.  But ArenaNet has already publicly contradicted those people twice and in roughly 3 weeks we'll see if it happens again.  All the while the studio that they championed for years in Korea has publicly apologized to it's players for the lackluster rate of new content while sales fall far below expectations.

Yes ArenaNet isn't Paragon Studios and GW2 is not CoH.  But ArenaNet is making it publicly clear that they aren't simply yes men to those across the Pacific.  And in a culture like Korea, with it's strong Confucius roots, having an underling defy you publicly is a great embarrassment and I applaud them for it.  There was no way our little band of devoted players could affect those across the Pacific as much as ArenaNet telling all that those across the Pacific are misleading stockholders and analysts not once but twice.
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Captain Electric

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2013, 09:18:58 AM »
Not saying I need proof of this (i.e. I believe what you're typing), but just for the pure enjoyment factor, if you could easily link me to some articles or stories about this, I'd much appreciate it. That is just pure gold, what you posted there. I'd probably attempt to hug the article while reading it.

And sure, this would totally make me want to support ArenaNet, but unfortunately there's no way I can do that without also supporting NCSoft.

Sermon

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2013, 07:00:22 PM »
If you show up inside the game, and you're adding to its concurrent numbers, you're supporting NCSoft in one of the ways that counts the most. You might laugh it off, "No, I'm just wasting their bandwidth! Final joke's on them! Haha!" Listen. No. And you know why this isn't true. You don't need me to explain this one to you.

I actually agree with this. In an MMO game, players become a part of the game's content. Being a GW2 player is always an asset to the game, and server costs for an individual player on the scale they are running things are infinitesimal. Even buying gems with gold in game is buying gems someone else paid for. For me, however, it is more about supporting a good game (which I think it is) and a good developer (which I think they are).

Blue Pulsar

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2013, 10:11:22 PM »
Something that comes up a lot is people saying they're not REALLY supporting NCSoft by playing the game, because they got it on sale or only paid for the initial purchase or don't by gems or whatever.

What people mean by this is that they are not directly supporting them in a financial way, and they are right. In your eyes, however, you mean even using their product is support, and that can be true in a very, very broad sense. Like choosing to rent a Ford over a Chevrolet at Enterprise is "supporting" Ford.

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If you somehow got the game for free, or found it via a third party who wasn't giving a share back to NCSoft, it might be tempting to go for it even if you had previously committed to the boycott. But here's why I think you'd be fooling yourself.

If you show up inside the game, and you're adding to its concurrent numbers, you're supporting NCSoft in one of the ways that counts the most. You might laugh it off, "No, I'm just wasting their bandwidth! Final joke's on them! Haha!" Listen. No. And you know why this isn't true. You don't need me to explain this one to you.

Actually, you do. If you are going to make such a bold statement such as "If you so much as log in to a game, you are supporting every company that has anything to do with it in the strongest and most important way." you most certainly need to explain yourself, as nearly everyone posting in this thread so far as at least a slightly different view from everyone else. No one sees 100% eye to eye on this issue. From GG's "Traitor" comment, to Agge (a "redname," no less) bluntly saying "GW2 is awesome." Not to mention everyone in between.


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But don't lie to yourself. If you show up to play the game, you're supporting the studio and the publisher. Directly, indirectly, intentions don't matter.

This is patently false. Intentions matter a hell of a lot. If I go into the game intending on picking it up as my new hobby and to just move on, fully supporting the game and the companies behind it, that's one issue. If I squeak by with the cheapest copy I can get and only log in to play with friends, not spending any money, and bailing from the game as soon as one of the incarnations of our heroic MMO is out, that is a completely different issue. Anyone here will tell you that.

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The publisher will value your participation.

They care about the dollar/won/yen/euro/etc. If they aren't getting mine, I am invisible to them. They care not. They want my money, and any effort they take to pursue it will be fruitless and futile. Other than this, out of the hundreds of thousands that play they game, I will matter to none but my friends.

That is, if I ever chose to play, which I most likely will not.

I came here looking for opinions, and I appreciate yours. I do. But, without trying to sound like an ass, don't spout it as though it's unchallengeable fact.
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Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
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Sermon

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2013, 10:50:46 PM »
Quote
... you most certainly need to explain yourself, as nearly everyone posting in this thread so far as at least a slightly different view from everyone else. No one sees 100% eye to eye on this issue. From GG's "Traitor" comment, to Agge (a "redname," no less) bluntly saying "GW2 is awesome." Not to mention everyone in between.

I have attempted to elaborate on Captain Electric's comment, because I agree with his statement (though we appear to have a different stance on your basic question).

One lesson which has been learned from free to play games is that players are an asset. You need to have your servers teaming with players who are bound to interact with each other. You have people to chat with and chat about, team with, fight with, fight against, etc. This is one of the reasons the subscription model has been less popular lately. The game needs to minimize the barriers of re-entry to get you back in the game as often as possible. Free to play games don't worry about you using up tiny bits of data. The founder of Path of Exile recently on reddit estimated that, for an indie game, 1 penny per concurrent user per day was a good way to estimate server costs. Assuming you are on constantly, that is only $3.65 per year. (source: http://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/1hhbim/how_much_would_it_cost_to_set_up_servers_for_a/caueian)

In the MMO landscape, players are content. By participating in the game, by buying and selling items, by chatting and teaming with other players you become a part of the content of that game. You create the social interaction, you create the economy, and by-and-large, you create the sense of fun. No one who pines for the "community" at large which City of Heroes offered can deny that point, at least.

Furthermore, in GW2, some players have mentioned that they only buy gems with in game gold. All gems which are supplied within the economy (with very few exceptions) are bought with real currency. Therefore, in buying gems with in game gold, you are increasing the value of that currency, and, in turn, improving the value of the real money currency.

All of this is less direct than handing money right to NCSoft. Heck, you probably can't even do that. Still, being one of millions of gw2 players is part of what makes the game. It shares the very principle behind the notion of a boycott: minuscule, individual participation in something has meaning and impact when performed by the many. That is the same point made by Captain Electric which I am espousing. To not be an "asset" to Guild Wars 2 (and Arenanet, and NCsoft) would mean to never pay (you can't ), to never interact with other players (you can't), and to never participate in the economy.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 11:31:40 PM by Sermon »

Captain Electric

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2013, 11:02:12 PM »
Exactly. You're the content, sir. Like it, loath it, ignore it. Your intentions matter not. This industry is well aware of the fact that many players aren't ever going to spend, and it has found a way to exploit those players nonetheless. Your intentions can't change their business model.

You asked for feedback and you got it. There's no need to slice it up and debate every sentence or paragraph. It sounds like you're well on your way to making up your own mind about things, and I'm glad to see it. My foremost opinion is still the same: Stay true to yourself.

Sermon

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2013, 11:18:51 PM »
Assuming you don't try out GW2, I highly recommend Path of Exile for those who enjoy that sort of game (online only Diablo-style ARPG). It has exactly what we all wished City of Heroes had: no publisher :P  not to mention the sole attention of people who both own and develop the game.

FatherXmas

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2013, 06:03:15 AM »
Not saying I need proof of this (i.e. I believe what you're typing), but just for the pure enjoyment factor, if you could easily link me to some articles or stories about this, I'd much appreciate it. That is just pure gold, what you posted there. I'd probably attempt to hug the article while reading it.

And sure, this would totally make me want to support ArenaNet, but unfortunately there's no way I can do that without also supporting NCSoft.

It's not as if ArenaNet put out a press release accusing NCSOFT of lying.  What happened was during both the 4Q 2012 investor's conference call in February and the 1Q 2013 investor's conference call in May, it was stated or implied that ArenaNet was preparing an expansion for Guild Wars 2 was in the works.  Likely in response to questions about one since Guild Wars continuing income model was two expansalone box sets and a true expansion.  After all, the rest of NCSOFT's MMOs are, at least in Asia, still subscription based and Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 are oddities.  Now Guild Wars 2 income model is currently cash shop only and after 3 million box sales bringing in more money in Q4 2012 than any single NCSOFT game did in any quarter ever, I'm assuming analysts and stockholders were drooling over the idea of a box expansion and keep pestering NCSOFT about it during these calls.

Box expansion is coming - 4Q 2012 Conference call
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/376352/page/1

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/guild-wars-2-expansion-confirmed/

No we're not
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Expansion-targeted-for-2013/1391159

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/05/arenanet-not-planning-guild-wars-2-expansions-or-sequels/

And I'm mistaken about the 1Q 2013 conference call, it was NCSOFT themselves that walked it back the next day.  Maybe that was to preempt ArenaNet from doing it again.

1Q 2013 Conference call
http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/05/12/ncsoft-is-preparing-a-guild-wars-2-expansion/

http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/13/4325904/guild-wars-2-expansion-pack-is-being-prepared-says-ncsoft

http://www.ibtimes.com/guild-wars-2-expansion-coming-1257629

Ah, you misheard
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/14/ncsoft-clarifies-stance-on-guild-wars-2-expansion/

http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/05/14/ncsoft-taking-a-wait-and-see-stance-on-guild-wars-2-expansion/

Like we said before
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/GW2-expansion-1Q-Ncsoft-Conference-Call-merged/2024859

This time ArenaNet is preempting the conference call by issuing a huge blog update today about what the plans are for the next 6 months and beyond, which doesn't include a box expansion.  Hopefully next month the home office has at least assembled an up to date cheat sheet for answering questions because even though KDB Daewoo no longer includes an expected box expansion in their sales forecast for Guild Wars 2, they still mention it on page 2 of their July 1, 2013 report (pdf) on NCSOFT.

Quote
Operating assumptions: Commercial release of Blade & Soul in China in
3Q13; Launch of an expansion pack forGuild Wars 2 in 2013; Recovery of
revenue from Lineage 1 and 2, and Aion after hitting bottom in 3Q12

and

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Risks
- Upside: (i) Launch of an expansion pack
for Guild Wars 2 in 2013

But that could be attributed to a lazy cut and paste job based on the last several reports.  Of course lazy isn't the way you want the company whose stock reports you may be relying on for investing to be described.  Of course you wouldn't have caught it if you weren't following news about the game at game websites.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 06:14:15 AM by FatherXmas »
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Captain Electric

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2013, 10:19:59 AM »
Thanks for putting that together. Now that you mention some of these things, I remember you mentioning them in previous posts; but I wasn't keeping up with any of this previously so it's nice to have it all here in linear order.

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It's not as if ArenaNet put out a press release accusing NCSOFT of lying.

I didn't take it like that; honestly there wasn't any need to read between your lines. Watching NCSoft's most press-worthy NA studio handle themselves with confidence in the shadow of NCSoft is reward enough.

Not too unrelated, but the summer sales have had me thinking about something. Almost every day I see more news about better, higher-quality games coming out of independent studios. And I know that distribution platforms like Steam, GOG.com and Desura have their fair share of haters (I wasn't exactly an early adopter either). But it's thanks to distribution platforms that many of these studios are getting all the advertising they need, sans Big Publishing that has become such a meat grinder that you can't be too comical or cliche in describing it. Distribution platforms are giving creators a chance to bring integrity and soul back to gaming, and I don't think MMO studios will be too far behind the curve.

I've mentioned here and there that I still get the UO itch and still maintain my account all these years later. After City of Heroes closed and I was exploring around the games out there, I came across an MMORPG called LinkRealms which I now log into sometimes instead of UO. It's free to play and funded through cash shop vanity items and access to player housing (or in this case player realms). It's rough around some edges, refined in other ways, the world is massive and fun to explore, and the 3D models and animations for characters and monsters are some of the best I've seen in any 2.5D game, especially the combat animations.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that it is all created and maintained by three hard-working guys who love to play the game. An entire MMO built by three friends. They have no publisher and aren't even on a distribution platform yet. The game could likely be stuck in perpetual beta, but they make enough dough to work full-time on it now, thanks to their small but very loyal community. That gives me hope for this industry.

Growing up, I was a fan of EA for many years. And I was a meganerdy fan of NCSoft since its early days in the NA market and I believe NCSoft played a major role in popularizing diverse MMO themes outside of the fantasy genre (strangely enough). I don't hate Big Publishing just cause, and I never went looking for reasons to dislike their necessity. But Big Publishing just won't stop giving customers reasons to feel dissatisfied. The people who run most of the big publishers have long since lost their way, something which there's no denying has been profitable for them, but will also be their downfall. And yep, that's a bold claim to be sure. You're welcome to bookmark this post.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:40:03 AM by Captain Electric »

Blue Pulsar

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2013, 09:23:40 PM »
I have attempted to elaborate on Captain Electric's comment...

Exactly. You're the content, sir. Like it, loath it, ignore it.

Yes, I understand your point (both of you), and already grasped the concept back when games started going F2P. My query was not so much "how does a massive amount of people help a game?", but how does a single person support a company?", which seemed to be CE's claim. One which he made enthusiastically, but vague.

I liken your assertion of players helping a game company the way a car driving down the highway helps a road construction company. Technically true, but statistically pointless.

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Your intentions matter not.

Again, yes they do. As I stated here:

This is patently false. Intentions matter a hell of a lot. If I go into the game intending on picking it up as my new hobby and to just move on, fully supporting the game and the companies behind it, that's one issue. If I squeak by with the cheapest copy I can get and only log in to play with friends, not spending any money, and bailing from the game as soon as one of the incarnations of our heroic MMO is out, that is a completely different issue. Anyone here will tell you that.

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This industry is well aware of the fact that many players aren't ever going to spend, and it has found a way to exploit those players nonetheless. Your intentions can't change their business model.

Exploit is kind of a strong word. They don't make use of my existence. Their real reason for keeping it F2P is in hopes that people will buy something eventually. The fact that players can be considered content is simply a byproduct, and a selling point to pitch to the higher ups when suggesting going to a F2P model. As stated by Sermon, a penny a day is the cost of a player. If I spend even 5 dollars in a year, they have made their money off of me. And the chances of a person dropping that much or more in the store of a game they love is highly likely. Not letting people play the game for free means they lose those dollars.

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You asked for feedback and you got it.

By posting on this board in any manner, you are asking for feedback... And you got it too.  ;)

Besides, I asked for opinions of if I should play or not. Not for someone to tell me I'm wrong in my thinking that I won't be in support of the game.

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There's no need to slice it up and debate every sentence or paragraph.

It's just how I roll.

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It sounds like you're well on your way to making up your own mind about things, and I'm glad to see it.

Actually, before I posted, I was nearly ready to pay out the 50 bucks and jump in game. Now, not so much.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

dwturducken

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2013, 09:54:10 PM »
I would say that playing with your friends is important enough to warrant looking for the game as deeply discounted as you can find it. I doubt you'll find a copy in the library, at this point, but it wouldn't hurt to look. Don't pin too much on it. And, uh, don't look at the local college library. It may be dried out, but I wouldn't trust that. ;)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

MakoMako

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2013, 11:41:32 PM »
Yes, I understand your point (both of you), and already grasped the concept back when games started going F2P. My query was not so much "how does a massive amount of people help a game?", but how does a single person support a company?", which seemed to be CE's claim. One which he made enthusiastically, but vague.

I liken your assertion of players helping a game company the way a car driving down the highway helps a road construction company. Technically true, but statistically pointless.

Try thinking of it more like a fax machine or telephone. The more people that own it, the more useful it becomes. The same applies to an MMO.

To expand on your example of cars? That's more comparable to saying that playing an MMO helps Internet Service Providers. Technically true, but statistically pointless. Unfortunately, I consider cars a bad analogy because the experiences and interactions while driving are minimal when changing the variable of your car. Driving a Toyota Camry doesn't prevent you from experiencing and interacting with people that drive a Dodge Caravan, nor does it improve the driving experience of other Camry owners.

I'm sorry but your intentions really -don't- matter. You play, you contribute. I'm unsure how to explain this better than Captain Electric or Sermon. But the fact is, the players -are- the content. And unless you're playing the game in the most asocial way possible, refusing to interact with players from socializing to teaming, therefore playing as a Single player game; you, as a player, are content in the game.

Blue Pulsar

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2013, 04:49:50 AM »
To expand on your example of cars? That's more comparable to saying that playing an MMO helps Internet Service Providers. Technically true, but statistically pointless. Unfortunately, I consider cars a bad analogy because the experiences and interactions while driving are minimal when changing the variable of your car. Driving a Toyota Camry doesn't prevent you from experiencing and interacting with people that drive a Dodge Caravan, nor does it improve the driving experience of other Camry owners.

Well, in your expansion, the Dodge Caravan or Toyota Camry would be more like a Brute and a Blaster. It's what we choose to use on the road. The road itself is what I was referring to as the game. Choosing one road over another will effect (on a statistically pointless level) the different construction companies that maintain those different roads. If I choose to drive one route to a neighboring town, say a county highway, then I share the road with those who choose to drive on it also and the county maintains the road. But let's say I choose to use an interstate bypass instead. Now I share the road with those who drive that one and effect (on yet another statistically pointless level) the federal government since they maintain that road.

To further expand: Continued extensive use of one road could cause the governing body to increase the QoL features of the road, like more lanes, wider shoulders, newer, brighter lights, better pavement, etc. Which, in turn, would mean that my driving that road (on a statistically pointless level) would have made the road better for other drivers.

My analogies are never bad. ;)

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I'm sorry but your intentions really -don't- matter. You play, you contribute. I'm unsure how to explain this better than Captain Electric or Sermon. But the fact is, the players -are- the content. And unless you're playing the game in the most asocial way possible, refusing to interact with players from socializing to teaming, therefore playing as a Single player game; you, as a player, are content in the game.

So, are you saying that these two scenarios are equally beneficial to NC$oft?:

A: My intent is to move on, forget CoH, and dump my money and time into making the GW2 community better, while teaming, selling, buying, organizing, etc, all sorts of ingame stuff.
Or:
B: I borrow an account, and play once or twice a week to visit my friends. Then, when one of teams here on Titan successfully brings us an incarnation of our game, I drag several players from GW2 to the new one.

If you say that a person who chooses B helps the company as much as the person who chooses A, then you're dead wrong. I am sorry that you don't think intentions matter, but they do. They color our decisions and make us do things differently. And a difference is a difference. I understand that there is the idea "If you contribute in any way, then you are the same as everyone else." But it just isn't so.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

Sermon

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2013, 05:25:46 AM »
If you say that a person who chooses B helps the company as much as the person who chooses A, then you're dead wrong. I am sorry that you don't think intentions matter, but they do. They color our decisions and make us do things differently. And a difference is a difference. I understand that there is the idea "If you contribute in any way, then you are the same as everyone else." But it just isn't so.

I would say that is a change of the terms of discussion.

The point under discussion was whether or not you could screw NCsoft over by buying the game cheap and not directly giving them money. Well, we are saying you can't. It was never about whether or not you can be more or less supportive. You can.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 05:33:12 AM by Sermon »

MakoMako

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2013, 12:46:10 PM »
Er... Exactly what Sermon said. You're not arguing the difference -intention- makes with that. You're arguing two completely different circumstances of which someone is playing.

The argument of "intention doesn't matter" is in the realm of why you play. It should play out more like this

A - You bought the game prior to the announcement, so you're not supporting NCSoft post-announcement because you're not contributing money to them anymore. You refrain from spending money on the cash shop, instead using in-game currency.
 or
B - You've moved on from the loss of CoH and purchased the game anyways, continuing to play. You refrain from using the cash shop all the same, using in-game currency, pretty much just because you don't wanna spend RL money on it.

Intentions are completely different. Results are exactly the same. You're a supporting element. -That- is the term of discussion. You can easily change up both sides in many variables, but intentions are not a factoring variable.

Also, I'm not really sure I'm following your analogy expansion very well anymore... Because if the difference in cars was like the difference in character classes/archetypes, then that'd mean you have a Blaster that you can play in practically any MMO, and the MMO you play it in influences support for it. O.o

Blue Pulsar

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2013, 04:21:11 PM »
I would say that is a change of the terms of discussion.

The point under discussion was whether or not you could screw NCsoft over by buying the game cheap and not directly giving them money. Well, we are saying you can't. It was never about whether or not you can be more or less supportive. You can.

My point, as the OP, the one who has the personal concerns, and the one who has been posting since day one of the thread, has never been "Can we screw over NC$oft?" and you'd be hard pressed to find me asking that at all. My point from the beginning was "Can I play the game in any facet while still staying true to my friends here on Titan and to the ideology of City of Heroes?" And in the context of that question, our intentions do matter. If I play the game like the person in my A scenario, I'm a traitor, hands down. But if I don't play at all, I'm not. My question was to ascertain peoples opinion of person B.

Er... Exactly what Sermon said. You're not arguing the difference -intention- makes with that. You're arguing two completely different circumstances of which someone is playing.

You're half wrong. I am arguing that peoples intentions change what they do. In that, I am right.

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The argument of "intention doesn't matter" is in the realm of why you play. It should play out more like this

A - You bought the game prior to the announcement, so you're not supporting NCSoft post-announcement because you're not contributing money to them anymore. You refrain from spending money on the cash shop, instead using in-game currency.
 or
B - You've moved on from the loss of CoH and purchased the game anyways, continuing to play. You refrain from using the cash shop all the same, using in-game currency, pretty much just because you don't wanna spend RL money on it.

Intentions are completely different. Results are exactly the same. You're a supporting element.

Intentions change what we do. Those things that we do are the variables. Therefore, intentions effect outcomes. The person who behaves like your scenario B is more likely to monetarily support the game if they have the attitude of "moving on."

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-That- is the term of discussion.

No. Reread the original post. It was never about screwing over NC$oft or trying to help or hurt the game.


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Also, I'm not really sure I'm following your analogy expansion very well anymore... Because if the difference in cars was like the difference in character classes/archetypes, then that'd mean you have a Blaster that you can play in practically any MMO, and the MMO you play it in influences support for it. O.o

I didn't say it was a perfect analogy, I said it wasn't bad. If that little part trips you up and makes you not understand the rest...

I had a thug/psn MM named Kon Tagion and in his original incarnation, he was magic. When I went to TSW, I made another toon that looks a lot like him. He uses the powerset "Blood Magic" to heal his friends and damage his foes. His concept in both was that he used toxic chemicals from his own body to hurt and weaken. I wrote into his story that he lost his henchmen, though.

Our characters are in our mind and are not bound to one game.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom

JaguarX

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2013, 04:42:05 PM »
My point, as the OP, the one who has the personal concerns, and the one who has been posting since day one of the thread, has never been "Can we screw over NC$oft?" and you'd be hard pressed to find me asking that at all. My point from the beginning was "Can I play the game in any facet while still staying true to my friends here on Titan and to the ideology of City of Heroes?" And in the context of that question, our intentions do matter. If I play the game like the person in my A scenario, I'm a traitor, hands down. But if I don't play at all, I'm not. My question was to ascertain peoples opinion of person B.


Traitor is kind of a strong word there especially when dealing with the ideology of City of Heroes. BEcause that varies from person to person and isnt some gang country cult that is pledge allegiance to, and thus there is nothing to betray in the ideology of City of Heroes itself. Now, you might be a traitor according to some and maybe your own ideology of what a gamer should do and be, but it's no way the ideology of City of Heroes.


But yeah, intentions may matter to the person and others, if they know the intentions, but to NCSOFT and GW2 intentions are very much so less important and irrelevant. If you spend $1 on GW2 it's one dollar to them. A person that moved on, that may not care much about the COH closing, and such may only spend $1 on GW2 for what ever reason. It doesnt matter it's one dollar. While someone who dispise NCSOFT and wouldf spit on their grave and view anyone that dare play the game a vile traitor that should be hanged and burned at the stake spends one dollar. Its still $1 all the same just like the person that moved on. Now there is various levels of support and that is a bit different than intent and while intent may influence it, it is not always one in the same. Someone could say that they are not supporting NCSOFT and just passing time until the a game like COH come back and only spend what they feel they need. Intent like the person in your section B. But someone who moved on, really didnt like COX much anyways can actually spend less on GW2 than the person who intentions is not to support NCSOFT, due to many factors even because they dont have the money at the moment. Intent of course is that B would spend less if he could and the other one would spend more if he could but in the end it ended up B spending more and the other one spending less, and regardless of their intentions by definition, the person B may be spending more than the person who wants to support NCSOFT and may be actually in monetary terms be supporting it more than the person who intentions is to support NCSOFT.

Think only people that do not wish to support GW2 buy or borrow the game and spend as alittle as they can? Some people support NCSOFT fully but just dont have the beans to spare but still want to play and show their support by being there and doing what they can under the definition of support in the realm of each player is part of the content.


From the looks of it, your heart is telling you which direction to go. Go for it.  And dont feel like a traitor to anything outside influence and ideology of City of Heroes. BEcause if being a traitor to a game is merely just happening to play another game, then sir, I hoped you joined the army and went to combat and supported your country in war and and support the american economy and never buy anything that imported because by that definition of, traitor to the ideology of City of Heroes, then you would be a traitor of the American ideology. WHat I'm saying that definition of traitor of ideology to a game is not a very good one and sounds a bit disturbing and kind of fall into what people been already been saying with this movement and people here acting a bit cultish and "us vs them" attitude or rather with us or you with NCSOFT"  attitude.

Sermon

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2013, 04:52:57 PM »
Captain Electric's comment about supporting NCSoft by playing was not directly addressed to you as OP or to your original question. It was directed at the players who were saying what is tantamount to "I don't support NCSoft, I just play their game". Implications for you and your decision were surely secondary.

I feel that if you gave our comments the benefit of the doubt, and understood that we are only trying to contextualize part of the conversation, that this back-and-forth wouldn't be necessary.

Can you play GW2 and not support NCSOFT? No.
Do your intentions in playing GW2 matter as far as NCSoft is concerned? No.
Do your intentions matter insofar as you and this forum are concerned? Probably.
 

JaguarX

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2013, 04:54:47 PM »

Can you play GW2 and not support NCSOFT? No.
Do your intentions in playing GW2 matter as far as NCSoft is concerned? No.
Do your intentions matter insofar as you and this forum are concerned? Probably.
basically this.

Blue Pulsar

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Re: I'm kinda torn here
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2013, 09:06:16 PM »
Captain Electric's comment about supporting NCSoft by playing was not directly addressed to you as OP or to your original question. It was directed at the players who were saying what is tantamount to "I don't support NCSoft, I just play their game". Implications for you and your decision were surely secondary.

Actually, his first comment I responded to was a response to me, just sans a quote. I made the statement that I would make sure not to support them even if I played their game. He unequivocally stated that by simply logging in, a person helps the game in the most important way. I proceeded to disagree.

If you show up inside the game, and you're adding to its concurrent numbers, you're supporting NCSoft in one of the ways that counts the most.

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I feel that if you gave our comments the benefit of the doubt, and understood that we are only trying to contextualize part of the conversation, that this back-and-forth wouldn't be necessary.

I don't think that either of you are patently wrong in your entire assertions. I actually agree with much of the sentiment, but I think that your view is a tad extreme. I also disagree with the idea that intentions don't matter. Now, if you had said, "All actions being equal, intent matters not." then I would have agreed with you. But since, as I've stated before, intentions effect our actions, often drastically, they do matter.

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Can you play GW2 and not support NCSOFT? No.
Do your intentions in playing GW2 matter as far as NCSoft is concerned? No.
Do your intentions matter insofar as you and this forum are concerned? Probably.

I agree with the first statement (but again, it's a statistically pointless fact), and I agree with the last. I do not agree with the second. If my intention is to play the game to it's fullest, buying stuff in store, organizing events, etc. Then I'm sure they are happier with that. If I go further and get other people to play, then I am doing even more. However, if my intentions are only to visit my friends and play on rare occasions, then they get less. Period. I am sure they would rather me go with the latter. Especially if my loyalty lies elsewhere and I end up pulling some of their customers away.

As far as the "back-and-forth," I hold no malcontent or rancor. I actually have more respect for those that can stand up and verbalize or textualize their feelings, regardless of their compatibility with my ideals or ideas. I also think that it is very healthy for people to air disagreements. Hashing this out with the two of you has caused me to explore my own opinions more deeply and I appreciate your candor and persistence. Honestly. My intention is never to simply argue and win, but to find common ground. However, without discussion, often unpleasant to many, that common ground can't be discovered.
Blue Pulsar - 50 nrg/kin def - first toon - Liberty
Bane of Lanur - 52 nec/dark MM - Main vill - Liberty
Destan H. - 53 SS/FA brute - Farm/PvP hybrid - Freedom
Destan's Fury - 53 StJ/Regen brute - PvPer - Freedom
Destan's Shadow Gang - 53 Thug/Dark MM - PvPer - Freedom