Keeping Things Simple

[Sajaana]

Right now, it seems all of the successor projects are working on lore and designs.  And while it is good to see where you can go, I get a little afraid when I see how complicated the lore is becoming.

We are, for better or worse, "spoiled."  Our lore and factions were so well done and compelling, our first tendency is to try to duplicate it all in a successor.  Well have our "faux Arachnos," our "Rikti clones," our "time travelers," our "paranormal scholars," and we'll place them in our games to make them familiar to us.  But the danger is, as always, can it be done well?  And, also, where would you be able to grow?

I would urge the successors to think of this opportunity as a chance to apply the lessons of CoH, but not in terms of duplicating its "mature" state.  Instead, try to imagine back when CoH started, and recall how simple the lore was at launch.

CoH, when it started, didn't have a very complicated lore.  It had your basic gang wars (Hellions, Trolls, Skulls), the clockwork and the Rikti, but that was about it.  But what they did, they did well, and they kept a lot of the lore open ended enough to where they could fill it in later.

And fill it in later they did!  Every issue seemed to delve deeper into the existing lore, and added to it.  Soon we had Shivans, Freakshow, Arachnos, the Midnighters, Carnies, Orobouros, the Shadow Shard, the Praetorians, and so on.

But it didn't start that way.  It started simple, and grew from there.  And the lesson we can draw from this in terms of game design is that you have a much better chance of creating a compelling environment when you start with simple factions, but execute well.

When you start simple, you can always make things more complex.  But when you are complicated, with dozens of factions and enemies, all vying for your attention, everyone loses focus.  The developers lose focus, the players lose focus, and the concepts lose focus.

Now for my part, I would have no problem diving into a game that had...say...two or three factions of "bad guys" we had to take down, if those "bad guy groups" were really well done.  And "really well done," for me, includes lots of minions, lieutenants, bosses, signature characters, story arcs and background info.

I would much rather have that than...say...the five or six meta-narratives that were going on simultaneously in CoH towards the end.  That's something you can build toward, but initially, it would be confusing to me.

Don't make the city "too interesting," at least at the start.  Give it a chance to breathe.

[JaguarX]

Right now, it seems all of the successor projects are working on lore and designs.  And while it is good to see where you can go, I get a little afraid when I see how complicated the lore is becoming.

We are, for better or worse, "spoiled."  Our lore and factions were so well done and compelling, our first tendency is to try to duplicate it all in a successor.  Well have our "faux Arachnos," our "Rikti clones," our "time travelers," our "paranormal scholars," and we'll place them in our games to make them familiar to us.  But the danger is, as always, can it be done well?  And, also, where would you be able to grow?

I would urge the successors to think of this opportunity as a chance to apply the lessons of CoH, but not in terms of duplicating its "mature" state.  Instead, try to imagine back when CoH started, and recall how simple the lore was at launch.

CoH, when it started, didn't have a very complicated lore.  It had your basic gang wars (Hellions, Trolls, Skulls), the clockwork and the Rikti, but that was about it.  But what they did, they did well, and they kept a lot of the lore open ended enough to where they could fill it in later.

And fill it in later they did!  Every issue seemed to delve deeper into the existing lore, and added to it.  Soon we had Shivans, Freakshow, Arachnos, the Midnighters, Carnies, Orobouros, the Shadow Shard, the Praetorians, and so on.

But it didn't start that way.  It started simple, and grew from there.  And the lesson we can draw from this in terms of game design is that you have a much better chance of creating a compelling environment when you start with simple factions, but execute well.

When you start simple, you can always make things more complex.  But when you are complicated, with dozens of factions and enemies, all vying for your attention, everyone loses focus.  The developers lose focus, the players lose focus, and the concepts lose focus.

Now for my part, I would have no problem diving into a game that had...say...two or three factions of "bad guys" we had to take down, if those "bad guy groups" were really well done.  And "really well done," for me, includes lots of minions, lieutenants, bosses, signature characters, story arcs and background info.

I would much rather have that than...say...the five or six meta-narratives that were going on simultaneously in CoH towards the end.  That's something you can build toward, but initially, it would be confusing to me.

Don't make the city "too interesting," at least at the start.  Give it a chance to breathe.

Indeed. Even though I came in about 5 issues later. Between issue 5 and issue 21, lot of stuff. From two (1.5 rather) factions, MA Three... no four pvp zones, Safeguard, new tutorial zone, new upper level TF/SF, incarnate powers, First Ward, about 9 power sets introduced, new enemy groups and Croatoa, addition of PVP, even base building only came into the picture in issue 6, and the invention system. That is a lot of stuff between about 6 years.


But overall, what ever with how much they can pull off from the start is good also, but yeah, no matter how good a game is from the start especially an MMO, players seem to want and or expect additions. Some games give themselves an early grave by making stuff too good too complete then about three months later, people are asking about updates and complaining they beat everything. Always leave a little breathing room. I think COH folk released an issue about at a rate of two or three times a year about.

[downix]

Indeed. Even though I came in about 5 issues later. Between issue 5 and issue 21, lot of stuff. From two (1.5 rather) factions, MA Three... no four pvp zones, Safeguard, new tutorial zone, new upper level TF/SF, incarnate powers, First Ward, about 9 power sets introduced, new enemy groups and Croatoa, addition of PVP, even base building only came into the picture in issue 6, and the invention system. That is a lot of stuff between about 6 years.


But overall, what ever with how much they can pull off from the start is good also, but yeah, no matter how good a game is from the start especially an MMO, players seem to want and or expect additions. Some games give themselves an early grave by making stuff too good too complete then about three months later, people are asking about updates and complaining they beat everything. Always leave a little breathing room. I think COH folk released an issue about at a rate of two or three times a year about.

Which is precisely why TPP is focusing on an extended lore system for the first two years of releases. Not all we're working on is for release.

[JaguarX]

Which is precisely why TPP is focusing on an extended lore system for the first two years of releases. Not all we're working on is for release.

I figured that.

[Golden Girl]

CoH, when it started, didn't have a very complicated lore.  It had your basic gang wars (Hellions, Trolls, Skulls), the clockwork and the Rikti, but that was about it.  But what they did, they did well, and they kept a lot of the lore open ended enough to where they could fill it in later.

Well, it also had the 5th Column, Banish Pantheon, Crey/Paragon Protectors, Circle of Thorns, Outcasts, The Lost, Vahzilok, Freakshow, Nemesis, Warriors, Tsoo, Sky Raiders and Devouring Earth - and just 2 months after launch the Carnies, Malta and Praetorians showed up - they made sure that there were enough diverse and interesting groups to make the 1-50 path varied, as well as enough lore to make expansion of the storyline go in several different directions.

Th way storytelling is being handled in "Heroes and Villains" also requires a similar amount of diversity in the enemy groups.

[Kistulot]

. . . they made sure that there were enough diverse and interesting groups to make the 1-50 path varied, as well as enough lore to make expansion of the storyline go in several different directions.

A million times this, and I'm glad both projects seem to get this.

CO might have a few factions itself, but the 1-15 path is going to be nearly identical for everyone unless you just farm alerts. Addressing that sort of an issue at launch makes it not an issue.

If the Lore starts out weak, it'll end weak, and it won't last very long to boot.

[Super Firebug]

CO might have a few factions itself, but the 1-15 path is going to be nearly identical for everyone unless you just farm alerts.

That's one of the ways CoH was much better than CO - until Freedom, anyway. In CO, your toons ALL start with the SAME chain of contacts and the SAME missions, while CoH's origin contacts gave us variance in our toons' stories. But when Freedom replaced those contacts with Matthew Habashy & Co., it felt like someone had decided that CoH should be more like CO. It was the New Coke fiasco all over again (where someone at Coke apparently decided that Coke should taste more like Pepsi, for those unfamiliar with that infamous moment in history).

In CO, if you start a toon and play through Desert Disaster, then start another toon, and do that with several toons, it really drives home how unvarying it is, and how desperately CO needs far more branches on its career tree (more like "career twig").

[Lucretia MacEvil]

At this point, I'm kind-of getting desperate for a CoX-like game, so I'd prefer simpler lore if it means getting the game out a bit sooner.

I also wouldn't mind not having some of the more advanced features right away (inventions, market, side-switching, a dozen powersets per AT,... how badly does the desperation show right now?).  I JUST WANT TO PLAY!

[Golden Girl]

At this point, I'm kind-of getting desperate for a CoX-like game, so I'd prefer simpler lore if it means getting the game out a bit sooner.

I also wouldn't mind not having some of the more advanced features right away (inventions, market, side-switching, a dozen powersets per AT,... how badly does the desperation show right now?).  I JUST WANT TO PLAY!

The problem with that approach is that you still need to take time with development to make sure that you're leaving your systems and designs open to all kinds of future additions - a good example of not planning ahead is CoH's power customization - when they designed the initial power system, they baked the colors into the powers - that mean that when players started asking to be able to color their powers, the devs found that they'd coded themselves into a corner, which is why it took so long to get customization, and why they only did primary and secondary sets to start with - their original design decision resulted in them having to reformat every single primary and secondary power in the game just to allow coloring by the players.
We've learnt form that so we'll be offering full power customization right form the start, although that does mean that it'll take a little bit longer to develop our power sets than if we were not going to offer it.

Another factor is the expectation level from the CoH community - for example, with bases, we could offer something similar to the very limited player housing in CO - but as the spiritual successor to CoH, the community will expect a much higher degree of base customization in HaV. The CO approach is obviously much simpler to create, but it fails to meet the customization level people will expect from us.

[silvers1]

I hope along with the power customization options, there will also be an option to turn it all off on my client,
or at least change to the default.

I literally developed headaches from viewing all those contrasting colors people came up with.