Author Topic: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance  (Read 23280 times)

Kaiser Tarantula

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I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« on: August 17, 2013, 05:44:18 PM »
Today I was challenged to about 5 duels (three by one person who kept chasing me down and calling me 'pussy' in tells) trying to cross Ren Cen.

I can't make a character I like, or am interested in, because my powers are wholly chosen for me.

I can't get motivated to keep playing the story because it's the same damn story every time, with no variation until Canada and the Desert unlock.

Stupid bugs that should have been fixed ages ago keep locking me out of missions, causing me to permanently miss perks, and are generally pissing me off.

Lockboxes are everywhere.  The whole game keeps waving a giant flag saying BUY OUR pancake OR YOU WILL SUCK in my face.

None of this is convincing me that subscribing will be worth it.  Why spend money on something that doesn't make you happy to begin with?  Subscribing won't magically turn Champions into a better game - it just gives you a marginally better (if your build is good) character to play in it with.

I thought coming back to Champions with a friend or two would alleviate the problems.  One quit the minute he saw archetypes were the only option.  Another continues to play, but has made it clear it's only because he enjoys my company.

Why do I still keep giving this game a chance?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 06:05:51 PM by Kaiser Tarantula »

Eoraptor

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2013, 06:09:16 PM »
pretty much all of this. In nearly two months of playing, I've made precisely one character that actually speaks to me. one character who talked about her powers and her back story and her mindset.

meanwhile, in Paragon City, characters would be incessantly talking to me before I even finished the costume generation, let alone actually clicked the enter game button.

I was never the most social gamer in all of Paragon but the option for me was always there. there were always dozens of people more than happy to just run a DFB or three, or say "hey, nice costume" or "love your character concept" (hell, one CoH ton actually became the protagonist in an original fiction, so many times did people read and love her bio)

and the villains roster? in Paragon I was fighting a mixture of street gangs, zombies, warlocks, ghosts, and dimension-jumping robots (among other things). I FELT like a comic book character saving the world on a daily basis. In Millenium? "oh, go arrest three dozen more members of the purple gang for us, would you?" It feels like that episode of Power Puff girls where the cops just get too lazy to do their jobs. I damned sure don't feel like a superhero.

Thus far i've managed to mostly avoid trolls in CO, but I know they are there, lurking in every corner, with their bland clones of the hulk and virtual genital waving behavior. it's why I keep my chat channel tuned to the NPC mode. in two months no one has said one interesting thing to me.

I always wonder "if i don't even enjoy this game for free, why the frell would I actually throw money at it in hopes it would get any better?" It's like those horror stories you see on CSI shows where the rich guy marries the stripper in hopes that money will make her a better person. it never ends well.
"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story, while others can read the back of a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe!"
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Brou

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2013, 06:29:32 PM »
It's mainly because everyone is on the same server. There are very friendly people in this game, and many of them are RPers, too. There are also people who only play to duel or abuse. The best you can do is report them in the help menu and ignore them. Your ignore list will never fill up like in CoH, where it dumped global handles off to make room, so ignore away!
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Kaos Arcanna

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2013, 06:53:19 PM »
I have met some very friendly people in Champions Online. Some, like me, were COH vets. Others were just fans of Champions-- I had a very pleasant hour or two in the game a four or five months just telling a CO Vet how COH was different. It helped me learn a lot about CO as a result.

It may be that CO is not your cup of tea and never will be. It's certainly not COH-- but it wasn't built to be so, either. It's a game in its own right with things it's done well and things it's done poorly.

You fight the Purple Gang up to level 10 or so. After that, in MC, you have the chance to fight Hi Pan's gang and the Maniacs. At 11, you can go to Canada or the Desert Crisis and fight different kinds of enemies. At level 19 or so, you can do the Queen City Arc which is the introduction to Vibora Bay (one of my favorite zones.)

You also have missions in MC in the 20s to fight Mind, Inc and a chance to fight in Dr. Destroyer's Factory.

In the mid 20s you can go to Monster Island and in the early 30s you have the option of visiting the underwater zone of Lemuria and then returning to Vibora Bay in a bid to save the earth from the Apocalypse.

There is plenty to do in Champions Online-- in my opinion.

It may not be right for you.

That doesn't mean that it's a bad game or you're a bad person. It just may not be a match for you.

But no game-- no matter who makes it-- will ever be COH.

Todogut

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2013, 08:22:29 PM »
Today I was challenged to about 5 duels (three by one person who kept chasing me down and calling me 'pussy' in tells) trying to cross Ren Cen.

I'm undoubtedly an extremist, but I only get challenged to a duel once... that's because, every time someone has "dropped the bomb" on me, I have blocked the player. Yes, I have a lengthy blocked list.

The challenges always come wordlessly, with no introductory bantering nor asking if I want to duel. It's my new characters that get challenged the most. So, there I am in Ren Center, straight out of the tutorial, level 6, I'm playing an archetype, not a free-form character, and I've typed a nice roleplaying biography on my character screen. I'm sure, the players who challenge me look at my character and figure, easy prey, maybe a newbie. They're not looking for a competitive fight; they just want to slaughter a hapless, over-matched opponent.

I'm not pleased that CO allows any bored, bratty teenager to toss a "challenges you to a duel!" window on my screen, interrupting my play session and forcing me to process the window. If there's an option in the interface where I can toggle off the ability for other players to challenge me to a duel, I have not found it. If such an option doesn't exist, it surely should.

Brou

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2013, 08:24:37 PM »
Press O. Look below. Click Privacy Options. Tick Whitelist Duels.

When they cry to you, ignore them anyway.
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Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2013, 08:33:20 PM »
There are very friendly people in this game, and many of them are RPers, too.
I have met some very friendly people in Champions Online.
I never see them.  I never get to play with them.  I have a hard time identifying them, and finding them to talk to even when I do.

Quote
You fight the Purple Gang up to level 10 or so. After that, in MC, you have the chance to fight Hi Pan's gang and the Maniacs. At 11, you can go to Canada or the Desert Crisis and fight different kinds of enemies. At level 19 or so, you can do the Queen City Arc which is the introduction to Vibora Bay (one of my favorite zones.)

You also have missions in MC in the 20s to fight Mind, Inc and a chance to fight in Dr. Destroyer's Factory.

In the mid 20s you can go to Monster Island and in the early 30s you have the option of visiting the underwater zone of Lemuria and then returning to Vibora Bay in a bid to save the earth from the Apocalypse.

There is plenty to do in Champions Online-- in my opinion.
Just so you don't get the wrong impression about me, I'm not some Johnny-come-lately to the game.  I played a Glacier archetype and a Grimoire all the way to 40, only to delete them when I ran out of things to do that weren't more of the same.

I realize there's different villain groups and such, but no matter what character you play and what backstory you have, you will always take one of a few similar paths through the game.

You will always fight the Qularr in the tutorial.  You will always fight the Purple Gang from 6-10.  You will always fight The Maniacs, the Red Dragons, Foxbat's Foxbattlebots, the Black Aces, and the Cobra Lords throughout the rest of the Westside storyline.  You will always go through the Westside Storyline, in fact.

You're given a binary choice around 20 to go to either Canada or the Desert.  It's always either one or the other, or both if you're feeling masochistic and don't mind running content beneath your level.  Both of 'em will eventually send you back to Millenium City for the ARGENT/MIND Inc. arcs, and then you get sent back to the Desert or Canada, or both, until you get your first taste of Vibora Bay with the Black Mask storyline.  And then you can't go back until you get the Vibora Bay Apocalypse.  Then there's Monster Island, and finally everyone winds up in Lemuria after a stint back in Millenium City.

That is, if you don't get sick of it all and just Alert your way to 40.  Speaking of, Alerts spoiled the fact that Valerian Scarlet was actually a villain, which had me dreading the whole Vibora Bay apocalypse.  I knew from the word 'go' that I was being had, and yet I had no choice but to go along with it, or miss out on content.

I hate to make the comparison to CoH, but in CoH I had the choice of three different tutorials, three different factions on my way to 20 (and two factions thereafter, not counting switching allegiance through morality mishes).  Within Praetoria alone, there was four concurrent lines of contacts, two for each allegiance, with the option to switch allegiance several times during those storylines.  The depth of content available meant that I didn't have to play the same storylines with every character I made.  Content in CO never really expands beyond two, maybe three concurrent storylines, where in CoH that was kinda the minimum most of the time.

The biggest thing that bothers me about CO is how blatant the monetization is.  I continually feel like I'm being dick-slapped in the face by CO's ever present desire for the contents of my wallet.  There are reminders everywhere.  Little zen icons on all the locked-out archetypes in character creation.  Zen icons on all the costume parts I'm not allowed to use unless I buy them (and the option to not show them is something you have to check every.  single.  time.)  Zen store button built right into the minimap.  Grayed-out bag slots with zen icons if you mouse over them.  Oh, and those costumes in the tailor?  If you mouse over them, you're told how to get them... except it only mentions the cash shop option, even if there's a way to earn them in-game.  CoH, even CoH Freedom, locked a lot of things behind a paywall, but they never had lockboxes cluttering up your inventory, giving you over a hundred of them before you even hit level 30.  CO not only gives into Perfect World's crazy Lockbox Extravaganza, but a lot of stuff worth having is sealed up tight in lockboxes.  Vehicles?  Lockboxes, or drifter salvage from Lockboxes.  Costume parts?  Lockboxes, or drifter salvage.  Legion equipment?  Lockboxes!  Legacy devices and costume parts that used to be craftable?  Drifter salvage from Lockboxes!

CoH didn't offer quite the freedom that CO's freeform characters offer, and yes there were some archetypes and powersets behind the paywall, but even without them, you had a lot of choice in character creation.  You could make a darkness-oriented character, for instance.  Sure, he couldn't have Dark Control unless you paid for it, but he could have Dark Armor, Dark Melee, Dark Blast, or Dark Miasma.  In CO, you wanna make a Dark character, you have to either subscribe, pay 50 bucks worth of zen for a freeform character slot, or pay 11 and a half bucks worth of zen to unlock The Void archetype.  Even in the latter case, you don't get to customize its powers any.   As a free player in CO, I have to shoehorn all of the concepts I want to see portrayed into just ten archetypes (11 with the Alienware promo that unlocks the Devastator).  And if I have a character that just won't fit those eleven archetypes?  Tough luck, can't make it.  Unless I'm willing to shell out real money to either subscribe (and get locked out later if my subscription lapses) or unlock it on a silver character through zen.

It's alleviated somewhat by the questionite system, but I really don't have the kind of free time to farm the amount of questionite needed to unlock anything really worthwhile, like archetypes or freeform character slots.  Y'know, the things that would really alleviate my grief with this game.  With zen going at a price of 205-207q currently, and only being able to refine 8000 questionite per character a day, with 2 character slots by default, that's just a bit less than half a month of questionite farming up to the limit each and every day to unlock an Archetype.  To unlock a freeform slot, that's over two months.

This is a game that I play for fun.  Not an occupation.  Not a job.  If it's fun to begin with, then I'm encouraged to spend money on it.  That's why I subbed for CoH - even before Freedom, and the shift to hybrid subscription w/cash shop, the demo period of just ten days floored me with the freedom offered to me, and so I happily said, "NCSoft, take my money!"  The only reason I even let my sub elapse was because my financial situation forced my hand (and even then, I kept it going far longer than I should have, because it was that good.)

If CO is not fun, then I'm not going to try and spend money to make it fun.  I'm going to find something that is fun, and then spend money to make it better, and support it.

Don't get me wrong.  I want to like CO.  I really do.  I enjoyed pen-and-paper Champions.  I think some of the characters they have and their universe is fascinating.  I find Grond oddly charming - he's like the Incredible Hulk crossed with Godzilla, only he has a personality.  Foxbat is a riot, and it's always fun to smack him down.  Destroyer is about as raving and lugubrious a villain as you could ask for, and watching him and Shadow Destroyer go at it at the end of Resistance was immensely cathartic (The dark, edgy, world-conquering New Destroyer gets put in his place by good ol' Destroyer Original-Formula.)

It's just that a lot of times it feels like it's doing everything in its power to make me hate it.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 09:00:20 PM by Kaiser Tarantula »

Brou

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2013, 08:55:15 PM »
Nobody will tell you want to like.

If you are giving the game multiple chances, does that mean you like it, but don't want to like it? What's the conflict?

If you believe something sucks, you have every right to not pay for it. You also have every right to voice your displeasure where the people in charge will see it. What do you expect of us? I say this in the sincerest way, without a tinge of annoyance. How can we possibly answer such an internal question?
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dwturducken

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2013, 10:01:42 PM »
It's only peripherally relevant, but it shows that nothing says that you have to play the game the same way as everyone else. :)

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/05/wow-player-levels-pandaren-to-60-without-picking-a-faction/
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Kaos Arcanna

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2013, 10:17:47 PM »
I honestly think a lot of what you're not happy with is simply a syndrome of the free to play MMO. They want to make money off the players. Naturally, they want to entice you to buy a subscription or make some microtransactions.

Remember, for most of its history COH was sub only-- if you stopped paying cash you were locked out of ALL your characters.

I listen and interact in the COX channel a lot, but occasionally there are people in Zone chat I enjoy talking to as well. (And a few I flat tune out 'cause they're jerks.)

I've played DC Online, and I still play it a bit, but I enjoy CO more because I don't have to grind and I can feed my altitis.

The freeform slot isn't cheap by any means, but it may be something you'd want to consider as-- as I understand it-- you keep the purchased freeform slot even if you don't have a sub.




dwturducken

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2013, 02:38:36 AM »
I'm not entirely sure that Cryptic/PWE wants us to sub at all. I think they make more, per person, from the micro-transactions than from subs. I'm basing that solely off the fact that the majority of PWE games don't even have a sub option yet continue to thrive and from comments from Posi about profits before and after Freedom.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

JaguarX

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2013, 04:20:15 AM »
I'm not entirely sure that Cryptic/PWE wants us to sub at all. I think they make more, per person, from the micro-transactions than from subs. I'm basing that solely off the fact that the majority of PWE games don't even have a sub option yet continue to thrive and from comments from Posi about profits before and after Freedom.

Well in general, yeah a quote on quote free to play usually end up spending more than $15 a month before they even realize. It's marketing 101. They see free, they assume they are getting the deal of a life time. So they enter game. Free as advertise. Now what they didn't say was that lot of popular features aint there. So guy don't have $15 a month to spend or his income is spotty or what ever the case may be, maybe they not sure whether or not they like the game or not.  But they want, that feature, without paying a sub. So they spend about $10-$15 right there. Then they want a few extra costumes or maybe a power that is gated. $5-$10 right there. Up to $25 dollars which is enough to cover one month sub and part of one to make up for one that caught on and didn't buy anything...yet.
Even if they never play again after a few days or so, they already spent more than a person that subbed and left within that same month all the while of having the customer thinking they are only doing a "test run" for free or they keep the player not willing to walk away from their purchases and thus the player either continue to spend or sub. Win-win for the game maker.

Even notice how must games with life time sub hardly ever even mention the option after a coupe of years?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 04:26:30 AM by JaguarX »

dwturducken

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2013, 02:25:20 PM »
Yeah, I think we're going to see the F2P model become the only option for new games. I know someone else has already said it, but I couldn't find where, but this is really hurting the MMOs. It doesn't improve anything except the profits, as studios put out more and more dumbed-down games aimed at drawing as many players as possible and keeping them occupied long enough for the studio to grind out the next one.  This is why I plan on supporting all three Plan Z projects, to the best of my ability. I doubt that I'll afford being able to sub all three, but they at least show the promise of still holding to the content- and story- driven games that we seem to be losing.

That said, I will be watching Champs closely over the next year. If the Cryptic North folks can show the game the love that I still think it deserves, I will scrape together the money to go LTS. City of Heroes was a better adaptation of the Champions PnP game, but Champions Online still has a really good game buried in there, somewhere.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2013, 03:59:45 PM »
I sometimes think I'm unnecessarily harsh with Champs.  Despite its flaws, it does have some good in it.

It's costume creator is, and I know I'm going to catch flak for saying this, better than CoH's.  CoH's didn't support asymmetry with most costume pieces.  You couldn't, for instance, have asymmetrical shoulders unless you chose a shoulder piece that featured such.  CO allows you to mix and match features on each limb pretty much freely, which is something I appreciate.  CO also doesn't have the three 'base body types' of CoH, with separate costume features for each - instead you can adjust numerous sliders to get the proportions you want.  You can actually have a muscular female character in CO, with some definition - something you couldn't do in CoH.  CO could still be better about that, but it is better than what CoH provided.

I'm not put off by the action-y nature of gameplay.  It doesn't really bother me that a well-designed character can get by with just 2-4 attack powers, compared to the 6-10+ you'd have in CoH (and that's not counting temporary powers).  Freeform character design is a brilliant thing, allowing you to build characters with much, much wilder concepts than what CoH and its "two powersets, each must fulfill certain roles according to your achetype" system allowed for.  It's a shame that Silver players don't get to experience that without paying for a freeform slot or subscription, because they could probably make a fortune selling retcon tokens for players who want to fiddle with their power choices constantly.

The crafting system in CO was pretty cool, giving you something to do with those old pieces of equipment aside from vendor-trashing it... until they decided to, for no well-explained reason, all but excise it from the game, and leave the pale mod fusion system in its place.  I suspect monetization was involved, because everything that used to be from crafting is now part of the Drifter Store, which requires opening lockboxes to get the proper currency for.

Part of me is saying, "go ahead and subscribe for a few months, it'll make the game better and might justify scraping together enough for a lifetime subscription."  Another part is saying, "This game is Perfect World's redheaded stepchild - everyone knows they acquired Cryptic just so that they could obtain STO, and that's why CO doesn't see hardly any work that doesn't involve more monetization of the game.  They just wanna wring as much as they can out of CO.  Besides, with CoH dying last year, the fate of superhero MMOs is in jeaopardy - who can say whether CO will last another two years to justify the cost of a lifetime sub?"

Every time I look at CO, I see more monetization.  More lockboxes.  More vehicles released exclusively to the Drifter store and Zen store.  Travel powers moved out of the questionite store and recognition stores and into the Zen store or Drifter store.  More alternative currencies added, some of which require cash shop investiture to get (like Drifter salvage).  Systems gimped for non-subscribing players, often in subtle ways.  It turns me off.  Oddly enough, I'm more likely to spend money on games that don't beat me over the head with how much better things would be if I spent money on them.  Getting the benefits of subscription constantly rubbed in my face discourages me instead of encourages me.

I guess I'm at the point where I have to make a decision - being a Silver player is not enough for me to continue enjoying the game.  I've exhausted all the available archetypes to me, I've gotten tired of running the same content with the same types of characters over and over again, and all the stuff that I want to try out is stuffed behind the pay-wall.  The decision must be made to either subscribe, or quit playing and find something else out there that'll run on my limping dinosaur of a computer.

So the question is - is subscribing worth it, at this point?  Will it change my mind about the game?  Or will it be more of the same frustrations that bother me now?

Kaos Arcanna

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2013, 05:00:33 PM »
That's a decision only you can make.

As for me, I admit when I buy Zen or when I got my lifetime sub I was worried about the prospects of the game shutting down at any time.

That being said, I enjoy the game far more on a Freeform character than I ever did on the one AT I had. And with a Sub I get a Retcon token and a free slot with every 40.

And since I do like to game and I would probably be buying console games if I wasn't playing CO, the lifetime sub that I have has probably saved me some money. :D

Life is short. Tomorrow CO might be given a closure announcement.

Or maybe it'll have a renaissance and last for another ten years.

Even knowing that the game ended and I have nothing to show for all the money I spent in COH, I am still glad I played it.

I think I'll have the same feeling about that when CO's time comes, and that's really all you can ask of a game.

JaguarX

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2013, 05:11:06 PM »
yeah, sounds like the time for a decision have come. It will be sad to see you go, as you are one of the better gamers out there but at the same time the purpose of a game is fun and enjoyment. When it no longer becomes that, then it might be time to go. The time and enjoyment of a player is not charity any more than running a game is.If the game don't delivers for what is expected then the person have to make a choice. The good thing is that you at least actually gave it a try and seem to almost trying to force yourself to like it. Most took one look at it, said it wasn't CO and refused to play.

But I think what is going on in CO is the trend with monetization. Some do it a bit different but I see the end result is the same. Although with lockboxes, the stuff in there is totally voluntary and not even really needed at all.  Compared to many other games where stuff a person actually needs to progress is locked behind a pay thing.

And non-subscribing, it should be "gimped" for "free players. If it wasn't then the people that pay sub and LTS would be highly upset and would see absolutely no point in subscribing. . I think the whole F2p system is stupid (although I understand business why the point of it.).
People expect everything for free and want it to where they don't have to spend anything to enjoy the game on the same level as people that do spend money. But then payers feel free to play get too much of the stuff, and it nullifies the point of having a sub. It should go back to sub or some form of it like buy it once like regular game and call it a day or something. Either you have $15 to play or you don't play and that be the need of it. If you subscribe to a website and fail to pay, then you get locked out website until you can pay sub. Back with magazines. You pay sub, you get magazine in the mail. No pay sub, no magazine. Entering dance clubs, you either have the money to enter or you will sit outside in the freebie area no matter how many months prior you entered as paying customer (this assuming you are not famous or know someone important to get in free. That is a different animal in itself.)   
 F2p is a situation where it's impossible to please the players. The more they give the more they want, all for free. And the more they HAVE to come up with ways to make money with unlockable content to make up for it. Which then free to play complain it's all monetizing and they have to pay for stuff that subs get, while sub people complain that free are getting too much. They should go back to pay a sub or go home and keep the market for extra stuff. As much flack as lockboxes get, there isn't a single item in there that is exclusive to lockboxes and actually needed for gameplay in any shape or fashion which make it easy to simply not buy keys to open them. Thus although it is said that is a big money maker I'm sure many feel that lockboxes are a waste of money and go free. They have to have ways to cover the expense of those people being there and make it seem a sub is worth it and that wont happen if everything is given away for absolutely free because free players are either too cheap don't like the game enough or don't have the expense to pay a measly $15 a month. While at the same time those that do pay $15 a month expect more and more and increasingly more and more for that $15 to "keep them there and paying". All the while not expecting them to ever shut down the game. People forget sometimes that gaming industry is still a business like any other business that must make money to keep operating.


Kaiser, how would you do it? The balance of free to play and subscribers?

Hellgeist

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2013, 05:57:44 PM »
Perhaps you keep giving CO a chance because its the only available superhero MMO that lets you make a highly customized hero, without having to inevitably diminish you in comparison to a pantheon of godlike feature characters from Marvel or DC.

I played CO since it first came out because I liked its differences. If you want to find certain kinds of players or SGs, you have to give it a couple of days, soliciting the open zone channel, moving yourself to more crowded instances of the zone you are in to see more people in person (and interact with them), and post on the CO forums. Like-minded players will network with you, the game just has a different communication structure.

CO was made differently because it had to be its own game. I see a lot of CoH players ambling around miserably, complaining that they don't have CoH anymore, and wishing CO would fix itself and become CoH. That is a problem with -you-, not the world around you. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for CoH to come back too. But if it doesn't, we will regret the time we wasted feeling bitter about it.

I guess the bottom line is, do you really want to be a super hero, or not? If that is really not the point for you, then consider the other products on the market - there are other great MMOs out there with strong communities and organized social features


Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2013, 06:15:50 PM »
Kaiser, how would you do it? The balance of free to play and subscribers?
Under the current system, there are two 'big draws' for subscribers.  The 500 zen/month subscription stipend, and the ability to make freeform characters without spending $50 worth of zen on each of them.  On that scale, if you make six freeform characters on a lifetime subscription, then it's already paid for itself, and just subscribing ensures that you have eight slots at a minimum.  Everything else is just fringe benefits - even the doubled questionite refinement veteran reward (as a subscriber, you already have more character slots, and more potential character slots, than any free player, so the questionite refinement limit is already a nonissue for you.)

Stuff that subscribers get that free players don't that I'm fine with:
  • 6 more character slots, with the ability to earn more: I'm not as prone to altitis as some.  Two characters is sufficient, if I can make characters I can be happy with
  • Power Tinting: I can get by without this.  Most powers in the game come in the color I'd want them anyway.
  • Extra Costume Slots: One regular costume and one SG costume is enough for me - anything more would be gravy.
  • Forum Access: I don't use Cryptic's forum anyway.
  • Veteran Rewards: subscribers alone should get these, as they exist for supporting the game
  • Unlimited use of the ingame mail system: the existing mail system is fine for what I use it for
  • 500 Zen/mo. Stipend: I don't purchase from the zen store much anyway
  • Expanded Market House Lots I rarely have more than 10 items to put on the market at once
  • Expanded Resource Cap: What am I ever going to spend over 250G on, besides overpriced stuff in the player market?
  • Ad-Free Voice Chat: If I want to voice chat with someone, there's teamspeak, Ventrilo, or plenty of other options
  • Priority Login If CO's population ever becomes big enough that this is an issue, then the game's healthy enough that I could probably buy a lifetime subscription without worry.
  • Inventory Bag Slots: I rarely have enough loot to fill my two bags unless I'm being lazy about selling it.  CO is very convenient about putting Collections Officers where and when you need them.  The only thing that bothers me is the grayed-out slots with zen-store icons on them - do you have to rub it in my face like that?

Stuff that subscribers get that free players don't that bothers me:
  • Freeform Characters: I can understand locking these off, in a way, because they're one of the biggest draws to subscribing, but Champions was designed with Freeform characters in mind.  Content was built around them.  While Archetypes are capable (some more than others), you really feel it if you're an AT trying to be a credit to your team.  Especially if you're doing anything other than DPS or support.  AT tanks, in particular, get sneered at.
  • Gold Archetypes: It's bad enough that they locked freeform characters off.  But then they went ahead and locked half the damn archetypes, too.  Gold archetypes really don't offer much advantage over silver ones, so I don't see why these archetypes are put behind the pay wall.  It's particularly irksome that only 2 tank ATs and 1 hybrid AT are available to Silver players, when there's five tanks and six hybrids available in the game total.  For silver players to learn they only have two options if they want to be a tank and one option if they want to be 'a little of everything,' that's offputting.  It limits your potential playerbase - players that enjoy tanks and hybrid characters won't subscribe or spend money on the game because their preferred playstyle isn't fairly represented among the silver archetypes.  This is kind of the boat I'm in - I enjoy tanking, but I only have two options if I want to be a so-called tank!
  • Special Costumes: What bothers me about these is that they're for sale in the Zen store.  More importantly, they're not obviously marked as such.  So you, as a Silver player, could purchase Zen with real money, and then buy a costume pack that includes costumes you'd get anyway if you went Gold.  I made this mistake, and while "buyer beware" is sort of a watchword these days, I still see it as underhanded.  Further, these costume packs that you'd get for going Gold?  They're not less expensive than any other costume pack for a silver player - there is literally no way to tell at a glance.  Or at least there wasn't when I made the mistake.  Either make them available through subscription only, make them free to both gold and silver players, or make both gold and silver players have to buy them.
  • Special Travel Powers: This is the same problem as special costumes.  Once again, they're purchaseable in the Zen store, but if you're a silver player, purchase one, and then later go Gold, and especially Lifetime, that's Zen wasted.  I do not like it when games willingly set up a cash-shop system where you can waste previous purchases as a free player by subscribing later.  It disincentivizes subscribing.  Either make them subcription-only, free to both silver and gold, or make both silver and gold have to buy them.  Any of those methods would eliminate the problem.

If I had my dearest wish with CO, it would be as simple as being able to convert an Archetype character to a Silver Freeform for free at level 40, even if it was at the cost of resetting him down to level 1 (albeit keeping his inventory, perks, and currencies earned).  Y'know, give Silver players something to work for.  Remove that shitty deal on Silver Freeform Character Slots in the Zen Store ($50 worth of zen?  Come on, that's ridiculous.)  It'd give Silver players something to work for, just as Gold players earn more character slots and retcon tokens by reaching 40.

At a minimum?  Unlock the gold archetypes.  All of 'em, for everybody.  With a couple of exceptions, ATs are gimpy enough as it stands that there's not a lot of advantage to them, gold or otherwise.  It would allow a wider representation of playstyles and mechanics among the ATs, encouraging more types of player to stick with the game and potentially subscribe (as I've mentioned, Tanks and Hybrids are horridly underrepresented right now).  It would also allow players to familiarize themselves with a powerset and its nuances through the ATs before deciding whether or not it's worth it to subscribe for the freeforms to fully leverage that powerset.

Personally, I've never liked the hybrid-subscription model.  I'd much rather have a game go full subscription, or full microtransactions.  In a full subscription model, I don't have to worry about being nagged to purchase bonuses - everything in the game is there for the taking if I'm willing to earn it.  With a fully microtransaction model, I don't have to worry about losing stuff I've paid for if I should let a subscription lapse.  The hybrid model is the worst of both worlds, IMO.

But as the old saying goes, wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which gets fullest.

Tenzhi

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2013, 12:21:21 AM »
Press O. Look below. Click Privacy Options. Tick Whitelist Duels.

When they cry to you, ignore them anyway.

Indeed.  I sometimes forget to set duels to whitelist and then someone challenges me as a helpful reminder and I say "oh yeah, I forgot to block out the worthless annoyances" and rectify the problem.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

JaguarX

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2013, 12:29:08 AM »
Under the current system, there are two 'big draws' for subscribers.  The 500 zen/month subscription stipend, and the ability to make freeform characters without spending $50 worth of zen on each of them.  On that scale, if you make six freeform characters on a lifetime subscription, then it's already paid for itself, and just subscribing ensures that you have eight slots at a minimum.  Everything else is just fringe benefits - even the doubled questionite refinement veteran reward (as a subscriber, you already have more character slots, and more potential character slots, than any free player, so the questionite refinement limit is already a nonissue for you.)

Stuff that subscribers get that free players don't that I'm fine with:
  • 6 more character slots, with the ability to earn more: I'm not as prone to altitis as some.  Two characters is sufficient, if I can make characters I can be happy with
  • Power Tinting: I can get by without this.  Most powers in the game come in the color I'd want them anyway.
  • Extra Costume Slots: One regular costume and one SG costume is enough for me - anything more would be gravy.
  • Forum Access: I don't use Cryptic's forum anyway.
  • Veteran Rewards: subscribers alone should get these, as they exist for supporting the game
  • Unlimited use of the ingame mail system: the existing mail system is fine for what I use it for
  • 500 Zen/mo. Stipend: I don't purchase from the zen store much anyway
  • Expanded Market House Lots I rarely have more than 10 items to put on the market at once
  • Expanded Resource Cap: What am I ever going to spend over 250G on, besides overpriced stuff in the player market?
  • Ad-Free Voice Chat: If I want to voice chat with someone, there's teamspeak, Ventrilo, or plenty of other options
  • Priority Login If CO's population ever becomes big enough that this is an issue, then the game's healthy enough that I could probably buy a lifetime subscription without worry.
  • Inventory Bag Slots: I rarely have enough loot to fill my two bags unless I'm being lazy about selling it.  CO is very convenient about putting Collections Officers where and when you need them.  The only thing that bothers me is the grayed-out slots with zen-store icons on them - do you have to rub it in my face like that?

Stuff that subscribers get that free players don't that bothers me:
  • Freeform Characters: I can understand locking these off, in a way, because they're one of the biggest draws to subscribing, but Champions was designed with Freeform characters in mind.  Content was built around them.  While Archetypes are capable (some more than others), you really feel it if you're an AT trying to be a credit to your team.  Especially if you're doing anything other than DPS or support.  AT tanks, in particular, get sneered at.
  • Gold Archetypes: It's bad enough that they locked freeform characters off.  But then they went ahead and locked half the damn archetypes, too.  Gold archetypes really don't offer much advantage over silver ones, so I don't see why these archetypes are put behind the pay wall.  It's particularly irksome that only 2 tank ATs and 1 hybrid AT are available to Silver players, when there's five tanks and six hybrids available in the game total.  For silver players to learn they only have two options if they want to be a tank and one option if they want to be 'a little of everything,' that's offputting.  It limits your potential playerbase - players that enjoy tanks and hybrid characters won't subscribe or spend money on the game because their preferred playstyle isn't fairly represented among the silver archetypes.  This is kind of the boat I'm in - I enjoy tanking, but I only have two options if I want to be a so-called tank!
  • Special Costumes: What bothers me about these is that they're for sale in the Zen store.  More importantly, they're not obviously marked as such.  So you, as a Silver player, could purchase Zen with real money, and then buy a costume pack that includes costumes you'd get anyway if you went Gold.  I made this mistake, and while "buyer beware" is sort of a watchword these days, I still see it as underhanded.  Further, these costume packs that you'd get for going Gold?  They're not less expensive than any other costume pack for a silver player - there is literally no way to tell at a glance.  Or at least there wasn't when I made the mistake.  Either make them available through subscription only, make them free to both gold and silver players, or make both gold and silver players have to buy them.
  • Special Travel Powers: This is the same problem as special costumes.  Once again, they're purchaseable in the Zen store, but if you're a silver player, purchase one, and then later go Gold, and especially Lifetime, that's Zen wasted.  I do not like it when games willingly set up a cash-shop system where you can waste previous purchases as a free player by subscribing later.  It disincentivizes subscribing.  Either make them subcription-only, free to both silver and gold, or make both silver and gold have to buy them.  Any of those methods would eliminate the problem.

If I had my dearest wish with CO, it would be as simple as being able to convert an Archetype character to a Silver Freeform for free at level 40, even if it was at the cost of resetting him down to level 1 (albeit keeping his inventory, perks, and currencies earned).  Y'know, give Silver players something to work for.  Remove that pancakey deal on Silver Freeform Character Slots in the Zen Store ($50 worth of zen?  Come on, that's ridiculous.)  It'd give Silver players something to work for, just as Gold players earn more character slots and retcon tokens by reaching 40.

At a minimum?  Unlock the gold archetypes.  All of 'em, for everybody.  With a couple of exceptions, ATs are gimpy enough as it stands that there's not a lot of advantage to them, gold or otherwise.  It would allow a wider representation of playstyles and mechanics among the ATs, encouraging more types of player to stick with the game and potentially subscribe (as I've mentioned, Tanks and Hybrids are horridly underrepresented right now).  It would also allow players to familiarize themselves with a powerset and its nuances through the ATs before deciding whether or not it's worth it to subscribe for the freeforms to fully leverage that powerset.

Personally, I've never liked the hybrid-subscription model.  I'd much rather have a game go full subscription, or full microtransactions.  In a full subscription model, I don't have to worry about being nagged to purchase bonuses - everything in the game is there for the taking if I'm willing to earn it.  With a fully microtransaction model, I don't have to worry about losing stuff I've paid for if I should let a subscription lapse.  The hybrid model is the worst of both worlds, IMO.

But as the old saying goes, wish in one hand, pancake in the other, see which gets fullest.

Good stuff.


I do think that they overall. the game makers are not sure what to do with ATs. One on hand you have a bunch of people saying the game is too easy as is that even the weakest ATS fly through content with not a single bit of issue. On the other, you have people that say what you way about ATs. They are a bit weak and leave a lot to be desired in many aspects. So if they buff ATs, then there will be an uproar about making the game even more cakewalk than it already is. If they leave it, then the others will view ATs as weak.

 I too think the least they could do is get rid of locking some ATs behind the pay thing. Leave freeform sub based and unlock the rest of the ATs. I think they are in a serious damned if they do damned if they don't situation with ATs already. If they buff them, people will curse them for it. If they leave them, people will curse them for it. Thus the logical choice if ya going to get cursed either way is to do the least expensive less laborious action, leaving them as is.


I like your idea. And I think it could work. yeah they either should go sub based, or micro-transaction. Mixture of both is nothing but disaster on anything less than a game with less than a couple of million players if even that. And getting a clear precise measure from the players is like trying to roll perfect sequence 1-10 on a lottery ticket. It's not likely to happen especially when many of the player base say it's too easy even with ATs, and other part say it's ATs are a bit weak.


And never realized free to play people cant get on the forum. Seems to be many there that claim to be free players that just got there and never subbed before.