Author Topic: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance  (Read 23352 times)

Atlantea

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2013, 01:31:54 AM »
I've let my sub lapse a few times and while a silver player I've never had a problem logging into the forums or posting. Either in Champions or in STO.

Now - it could be that the pay wall for that still exists for someone who is not and never has been subscribed before. If you start as a Silver Player and stay one - the main forums might be locked to you? Don't know for sure. Never been in that situation myself. I think regardless that you can still read the forums.


Xev

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2013, 02:44:04 AM »
While we are wishing I would like world peace or at least an end to world hunger.

And I wish all unhappy gamers find their joy, soon.

I've never had a problem posting as a perma-Silver on the official forums btw. Only did so when I went there to moan about the server probs they were having awhile back. I have bought Zen. Dunno if that counts.
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Eoraptor

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2013, 03:19:13 AM »
I do indeed have access to the forums on a free account, though it is chokered. I cannot start new threads until after a certain amount of time or posts.

I've made peace with Champions not being City of Heroes. I also know that once I finally find something I like better, I will probably never look back. but there are still ways it could be improved without trying to turn it into CoH. For instance the aformentioned changes to the AT layout. if I am looking at it from a  business perspective, what would I rather do; give someone crippled content in the hopes that they will have enough good will for my product to be willing to try the full-price version after I have browbeat them for a month?, or offer them a balanced taste of the game with the promise of even better stuff if they pay.  For instance, ALL of the melee ATS are bladed or hammer. and the two tanks ( who really are just trotted up melees)? And browbeating me about vehicles and vehicle mods, and then not being able to do jack with them unless I go buy one with cash or subs?
 I also think allowing someone to have a free form slot after reaching max level is a lot better than charging 3 months subscription or making them grind for a month gaming the Q>Zen system.

by far my largest complaint with Champions (other than it not being City) is how damned linear it is. Particularly when limited to Archetype power sets. You can't choose your powers. you can't even choose the order in which your powers are triggered in the tray. After you've played four or five ATs, the game indeed becomes a cakewalk which you can play by memory. Granted most games have this, but not to the extent I experience in Millenium City where there is exactly one tutorial you cannot skip, and more or less one story path you can follow until level 15. For a game that's been out this long, to only have one story path to follow is just shameful.
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JaguarX

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2013, 07:10:46 AM »
Granted most games have this, but not to the extent I experience in Millenium City where there is exactly one tutorial you cannot skip, and more or less one story path you can follow until level 15. For a game that's been out this long, to only have one story path to follow is just shameful.

Frees cant skip tutorial?


Ever since a long time ago after I did the tutorial once, it's always had option to skip it on every toon after the first. But i'm sub. Might be different for frees and it would suck to have to do tutorial over and over each time. Although I don't the tutorial more than once by choice (I actually like the tutorial missions).


YEah it's sad that in fact they used to have different leveling paths, three, desert, Canada and MC then they took that feature away. Interesting choice there. SO it's definitely not that they don't have the capability ot create more than one leveling path, it's seems that they just don't want to bother with it. Hell, barely can get some ticket support people to do their job that I assume that they are getting paid to do.

CO seem to be stuck in that circle. Not enough money to make improvements but wont be enough money because there is not improvements and thus leaving not enough money to make improvements. It's like everyone is sitting on the side of the room waiting for someone else to go first. They dont want to risk it, and players don't want to put more money into it only to still end up with no improvements. While the super hero mmo market is small and that tactic get them by as is right now, eventually they will have to swim or sink. It's only a matter of time before someone make a super hero mmo that does actually halfway well (meaning 350,000 plus players) and then all the big companies will jump on the wagon until there is no more room. Right now, they have first dibs and their time is now but seems like they are going to mess around waiting and miss out.

Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2013, 07:57:05 AM »
Some of the restrictions silver players have are lifted if you have a zen balance on your account or a certain amount of aggregate play-time, or if you've ever had a gold subscription in the past.

I took all the categories mentioned in my post from the chart on this page.  The restrictions on chat, Supergroup creation, Forum access and In-game Mail all go away under these circumstances.

As far as ATs and their strength goes...

ATs can, and do, usually sail through most content.  On Normal difficulty, at least.  But then again everyone does, so that's not surprising.  Champions, on its base difficulty, is not a hard game so long as you don't go pushing your character.  Considering that everyone who has an attack power besides their energy builder and starter can probably handle most content the game throws at you unless there's a Super Villain at the end of it, it's not fair to call ATs effective based on that.  It's literally the lowest-common-denominator of what constitutes "playable," let alone "effective."

The problem comes when playing things like Adventure Packs, Comic Series, or trying to participate in team activities like Alerts or instances, lairs, or even in zone events at higher levels.  ATs do not fare well in these, unless they're a support AT or a DPS AT.  Unfortunately, that's where everything that's worth having in the game comes from.  Costume unlocks, questionite, recognition, all of these rewards come from farming these team activities.  While some of them you can do solo (I personally soloed Resistance and Whiteout before, but then again, they're the most solo-friendly out there), most require a well put-together team, or in the case of alerts like Gravitar rampages, several.  Most ATs can't stand up to the scaled-up mobs and bosses in this content, and that's why they have such a bad rep as being gimpy, and it's why they're not wanted on teams.

This is a particular problem for AT tanks.  A freeform tank can stack two or three really hard-hitting attacks to grab and hold aggro, and then fill the rest of their slots with things that either improve their damage (and aggro generation), or make them tankier, or provide self-healing ability.  AT tanks have way, way too many attacks than they can reasonably expect to utilize, and often their attacks are not chosen to complement their defensive mechanics.

To give you an example, The Behemoth doesn't get a reliable way of proccing Enrage prior to level 35 unless you take Roomsweeper at 11, which has a nasty tendecy to swat enemies away from you, which in turn interferes with stacking Defiance.  Taking Thunderclap instead forces you to always have at least three enemies on you, otherwise you can't generate Enrage with it.  It's also significantly weaker, and can't be spammed as rapidly as Roomsweeper (Roomsweeper is a .83 second charge-up, Thunderclap is a click with a 6-second cooldown), interfering with your ability to hold aggro.  It's the most-cited example of poor AT design.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 08:05:55 AM by Kaiser Tarantula »

JaguarX

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2013, 08:17:34 AM »
Some of the restrictions silver players have are lifted if you have a zen balance on your account or a certain amount of aggregate play-time, or if you've ever had a gold subscription in the past.

I took all the categories mentioned in my post from the chart on this page.  The restrictions on chat, Supergroup creation, Forum access and In-game Mail all go away under these circumstances.

As far as ATs and their strength goes...

ATs can, and do, usually sail through most content.  On Normal difficulty, at least.  But then again everyone does, so that's not surprising.  Champions, on its base difficulty, is not a hard game so long as you don't go pushing your character.  Considering that everyone who has an attack power besides their energy builder and starter can probably handle most content the game throws at you unless there's a Super Villain at the end of it, it's not fair to call ATs effective based on that.  It's literally the lowest-common-denominator of what constitutes "playable," let alone "effective."

The problem comes when playing things like Adventure Packs, Comic Series, or trying to participate in team activities like Alerts or instances, lairs, or even in zone events at higher levels.  ATs do not fare well in these, unless they're a support AT or a DPS AT.  Unfortunately, that's where everything that's worth having in the game comes from.  Costume unlocks, questionite, recognition, all of these rewards come from farming these team activities.  While some of them you can do solo (I personally soloed Resistance and Whiteout before, but then again, they're the most solo-friendly out there), most require a well put-together team, or in the case of alerts like Gravitar rampages, several.  Most ATs can't stand up to the scaled-up mobs and bosses in this content, and that's why they have such a bad rep as being gimpy, and it's why they're not wanted on teams.

This is a particular problem for AT tanks.  A freeform tank can stack two or three really hard-hitting attacks to grab and hold aggro, and then fill the rest of their slots with things that either improve their damage (and aggro generation), or make them tankier, or provide self-healing ability.  AT tanks have way, way too many attacks than they can reasonably expect to utilize, and often their attacks are not chosen to complement their defensive mechanics.

To give you an example, The Behemoth doesn't get a reliable way of proccing Enrage prior to level 35 unless you take Roomsweeper at 11, which has a nasty tendecy to swat enemies away from you, which in turn interferes with stacking Defiance.  Taking Thunderclap instead forces you to always have at least three enemies on you, otherwise you can't generate Enrage with it.  It's also significantly weaker, and can't be spammed as rapidly as Roomsweeper (Roomsweeper is a .83 second charge-up, Thunderclap is a click with a 6-second cooldown), interfering with your ability to hold aggro.  It's the most-cited example of poor AT design.

What you speak is true form what I seen.


Although I find great irony in that. Players say that the game is too solo friendly and not team friendly at all because there is no mechanism making or forcing them to need support toons, yet ATs have that mechanism where they need support to survive the tough stuff but now it's considered gimped and not wanted on teams, because they lack the mechanism that supposedly creating an air of anti-teaming of toons being too self sufficient. lol. Now I know why most game makers dont even bother with customizations. It's a lot of headache and there seem to be no clear way to please everyone or even mostly everyone. It's easier to stick with pre set builds where everyone is the same and up to them to find and fight for gear that distinguish between the player.

Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2013, 12:05:14 PM »
What you speak is true form what I seen.


Although I find great irony in that. Players say that the game is too solo friendly and not team friendly at all because there is no mechanism making or forcing them to need support toons, yet ATs have that mechanism where they need support to survive the tough stuff but now it's considered gimped and not wanted on teams, because they lack the mechanism that supposedly creating an air of anti-teaming of toons being too self sufficient. lol. Now I know why most game makers dont even bother with customizations. It's a lot of headache and there seem to be no clear way to please everyone or even mostly everyone. It's easier to stick with pre set builds where everyone is the same and up to them to find and fight for gear that distinguish between the player.
The biggest problem is that freeforms get more powers than ATs.  Coupled with the freedom to pick and choose as they please with those powers, it means that freeforms can, quite literally, do damn near anything, and sometimes they can do it all, and do it well, all on one character.

As a result, a freeform tank can essentially be his own Support.  Further, healing oneself generates aggro, and a lot of it, and it's AoE aggro too - it's very hard to hold aggro on a healer without a self-heal of your own.  So a tank that can handle his own healing can benefits the party three ways.
  • It eliminates the need for a Support, since crowd control doesn't work on bosses anyway.  You can bring an extra DPSer.
  • It helps the tank hold aggro better.
  • It helps the tank survive better and handle more mobs at once.
Champions only allows for 4-man teams.  Every Support you can weed out of the ranks of your party in favor of a DPSer is a roughly 25% increase of overall DPS, allowing for faster runs and more loot in the same period of time.  Really efficient teaming means weeding out every Support toon that isn't absolutely necessary.

On the other hand, supports are welcome in most groups because heals are rare and godly in Champions, and there are just some enemies that will eat your face without them.  Even in parties with a self-sufficient tank will generally be okay with a support joining because it means everyone else gets healed.  It's particularly gravy if the support has AoE heals, but even ST heals are welcomed.  No amount of defenses will let you tank a serious fight without healing, and having heals for the DPSers means they can DPS without being interrupted or risking dying if the enemy has, say, a raidwide or roomwide AoE.

Of course, the way Champions' combat system is designed, an effective DPS doesn't need a ton of attacks either - just a narrow selection of really good ones.  It's not impossible for a freeform DPSer to bring their own self-healing as well (and you won't find a freeform melee DPS toon without it - look how common Devour Essence, Conviction and Resurgence are among melee freeforms).

Then there's pet builds.  A pet build is basically an entire team (or two, or three) in your pocket.  These tend to pretty much break the game over their knee.  Ritual of Arcane Summoning (tank), Ritual of Radiant Summoning (support), Ritual of Ebon Summoning (ranged DPS), Ritual of Primal Summoning (melee DPS), Tyrannon's Familiar (Offtank, energy support), Void Horror (debuffer), Command Animals (more melee DPS), Air Elemental (more ranged DPS), Arctic Beast (controller), Munitions Bots (ranged DPS), Support Drones (healer), Attack Toys! (self-replicating cannon fodder).  All of these are controllable pets.  Only a few (the ritual pets) require an Advantage to be used alongside others.  There's not a lot stopping you from using most of them at once.  If you drop out the more redundant ones, like Muni Bots and Attack Toys, or Command Animals, you'd still have room for other powers (like say Illumination coupled with Celestial Conduit to efficiently heal that mass of allies and deal damage at the same time.  Heck, you could still field a hefty team and have room to carry Gatling Gun to apply Fear to enemies and Spirit Reverberation to take advantage of it when using Celestial Conduit offensively.)  Many freeform builds carry Support Drones just for the free heals.

What's all this mean in the end?

Well, it means that people with freeforms (subscribers, generally) can literally do everything themselves, and more often than not, they get intensely butt-mad when their teammates can't do the same, or actually, y'know, have limitations.  ATs aren't capable of the godly feats of tanking and DPS that are doable on freeform characters, and get sneered at as 'not carrying their weight.'

This is why Support ATs and melee DPS ATs are the only ones seen as viable by the Freeform Elite - anyone with a heal and a modicum of intelligence in targetting it is capable of support.  If you got a rez too, even better.  DPS is a dime-a-dozen, and DPS ATs tend to be the best-designed of the ATs anyway.  It's alright if they're a bit subpar, there's 2-3 of them in each team anyway, so the better ones can pick up the slack of the worse ones.  Even if you do have bad DPS, in anything that's not an Alert, it's not an issue because there's not a time limit.  It just means killing the bosses is going to take a bit longer.

This kinda leaves AT tanks out in the cold.  If you're an AT tank, or a tanky Hybrid AT (like The Impulse with Personal Forcefield or The Savage), your best bet in a party is to just resign you to being a drastically-subpar DPSer and hope your group doesn't kick you for having to carry you.  On my Glacier AT, I tried to make myself useful by actually leveraging Chilled and Ice Cage to play a mini-Controller, since I basically told to stop trying to tank by most of the groups I was in.

As you can guess, as someone who adores tanking, (I played Brutes & Tankers in CoH when I wasn't on a Kheldian or Arachnos EAT) that hurts to hear.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 12:36:02 PM by Kaiser Tarantula »

Xev

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2013, 01:33:25 PM »
What's all this mean in the end?

If nothing else it means you're keen on analysis!
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MWRuger

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2013, 03:54:20 PM »
Press O. Look below. Click Privacy Options. Tick Whitelist Duels.

When they cry to you, ignore them anyway.

Useful as always!
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MWRuger

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2013, 04:01:44 PM »
It seems to me that the OP wants to like this game, but just can't. I can understand that. I sorta have a love/hate relationship with it myself,

I know the Game has issues, but it is certainly more fun than when it started. I like some of the changes they made, but some are very off putting (lockboxes). I don't feel that a gold player should have to spend so much real money to unlock the drops they get for doing missions. More regular drops, less lockboxes would be welcome. I feel that an average player should get just about the same number of lockbox drops as the stipend covers in terms of keys. No so many that you can use the entire stipend up in a few hours of play.

To me, the big rub is content. There really needs to be a lot more and different things to do.

I'm lifetime subber from Beta, Have I got my money's worth?

Mathwise? Sure.

Funwise? Maybe.

It's different from COH in many. many ways and players expecting a similar experience will be disappointed. But there is fun to be had there.
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JaguarX

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2013, 05:55:14 PM »
It seems to me that the OP wants to like this game, but just can't. I can understand that. I sorta have a love/hate relationship with it myself,

I know the Game has issues, but it is certainly more fun than when it started. I like some of the changes they made, but some are very off putting (lockboxes). I don't feel that a gold player should have to spend so much real money to unlock the drops they get for doing missions. More regular drops, less lockboxes would be welcome. I feel that an average player should get just about the same number of lockbox drops as the stipend covers in terms of keys. No so many that you can use the entire stipend up in a few hours of play.

To me, the big rub is content. There really needs to be a lot more and different things to do.

I'm lifetime subber from Beta, Have I got my money's worth?

Mathwise? Sure.

Funwise? Maybe.

It's different from COH in many. many ways and players expecting a similar experience will be disappointed. But there is fun to be had there.

yeah the lockbox drop rate used to be much much much lower. I remember one had to spend a pretty penny to buy one off the market if thye wasnt fortunate enough to have one drop naturally. Now they drop so often that it's not even worth selling. And unless a person is into vehicle and feeling lucky or need the drifter salvage or feeling lucky that they may get some of the good gear, it dont seem to be worth spending much money on.

To me lockboxes are merely extra stuff that I treat like any other drop. Not useful it get deleted or sold. No pressure to buy to me.

JaguarX

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2013, 06:08:35 PM »
The biggest problem is that freeforms get more powers than ATs.  Coupled with the freedom to pick and choose as they please with those powers, it means that freeforms can, quite literally, do damn near anything, and sometimes they can do it all, and do it well, all on one character.

As a result, a freeform tank can essentially be his own Support.  Further, healing oneself generates aggro, and a lot of it, and it's AoE aggro too - it's very hard to hold aggro on a healer without a self-heal of your own.  So a tank that can handle his own healing can benefits the party three ways.
  • It eliminates the need for a Support, since crowd control doesn't work on bosses anyway.  You can bring an extra DPSer.
  • It helps the tank hold aggro better.
  • It helps the tank survive better and handle more mobs at once.
Champions only allows for 4-man teams.  Every Support you can weed out of the ranks of your party in favor of a DPSer is a roughly 25% increase of overall DPS, allowing for faster runs and more loot in the same period of time.  Really efficient teaming means weeding out every Support toon that isn't absolutely necessary.

On the other hand, supports are welcome in most groups because heals are rare and godly in Champions, and there are just some enemies that will eat your face without them.  Even in parties with a self-sufficient tank will generally be okay with a support joining because it means everyone else gets healed.  It's particularly gravy if the support has AoE heals, but even ST heals are welcomed.  No amount of defenses will let you tank a serious fight without healing, and having heals for the DPSers means they can DPS without being interrupted or risking dying if the enemy has, say, a raidwide or roomwide AoE.

Of course, the way Champions' combat system is designed, an effective DPS doesn't need a ton of attacks either - just a narrow selection of really good ones.  It's not impossible for a freeform DPSer to bring their own self-healing as well (and you won't find a freeform melee DPS toon without it - look how common Devour Essence, Conviction and Resurgence are among melee freeforms).

Then there's pet builds.  A pet build is basically an entire team (or two, or three) in your pocket.  These tend to pretty much break the game over their knee.  Ritual of Arcane Summoning (tank), Ritual of Radiant Summoning (support), Ritual of Ebon Summoning (ranged DPS), Ritual of Primal Summoning (melee DPS), Tyrannon's Familiar (Offtank, energy support), Void Horror (debuffer), Command Animals (more melee DPS), Air Elemental (more ranged DPS), Arctic Beast (controller), Munitions Bots (ranged DPS), Support Drones (healer), Attack Toys! (self-replicating cannon fodder).  All of these are controllable pets.  Only a few (the ritual pets) require an Advantage to be used alongside others.  There's not a lot stopping you from using most of them at once.  If you drop out the more redundant ones, like Muni Bots and Attack Toys, or Command Animals, you'd still have room for other powers (like say Illumination coupled with Celestial Conduit to efficiently heal that mass of allies and deal damage at the same time.  Heck, you could still field a hefty team and have room to carry Gatling Gun to apply Fear to enemies and Spirit Reverberation to take advantage of it when using Celestial Conduit offensively.)  Many freeform builds carry Support Drones just for the free heals.

What's all this mean in the end?

Well, it means that people with freeforms (subscribers, generally) can literally do everything themselves, and more often than not, they get intensely butt-mad when their teammates can't do the same, or actually, y'know, have limitations.  ATs aren't capable of the godly feats of tanking and DPS that are doable on freeform characters, and get sneered at as 'not carrying their weight.'

This is why Support ATs and melee DPS ATs are the only ones seen as viable by the Freeform Elite - anyone with a heal and a modicum of intelligence in targetting it is capable of support.  If you got a rez too, even better.  DPS is a dime-a-dozen, and DPS ATs tend to be the best-designed of the ATs anyway.  It's alright if they're a bit subpar, there's 2-3 of them in each team anyway, so the better ones can pick up the slack of the worse ones.  Even if you do have bad DPS, in anything that's not an Alert, it's not an issue because there's not a time limit.  It just means killing the bosses is going to take a bit longer.

This kinda leaves AT tanks out in the cold.  If you're an AT tank, or a tanky Hybrid AT (like The Impulse with Personal Forcefield or The Savage), your best bet in a party is to just resign you to being a drastically-subpar DPSer and hope your group doesn't kick you for having to carry you.  On my Glacier AT, I tried to make myself useful by actually leveraging Chilled and Ice Cage to play a mini-Controller, since I basically told to stop trying to tank by most of the groups I was in.

As you can guess, as someone who adores tanking, (I played Brutes & Tankers in CoH when I wasn't on a Kheldian or Arachnos EAT) that hurts to hear.
You're on point with this I think.


It's sad you came across groups like that. I came across similar if not worse in COX so I feel your pain for real. In COX, came across teams and leaders that would kick people for all types of things. A defender that is not empath, kicked. Stalker, good luck getting an invite at all. kinetic controller without speed boost, kicked. Tank no taunt or refuse to herd, kicked. Scrapper acting like a tank, kicked. Dom without perma dom, kicked. Not IOed out, kicked. Blaster not spamming AOE, kicked. Costume not in the taste of the leader, kicked. No bio, kicked. Bio not up to standard to the leader, kicked. Female character not "hot enough", kicked. Female tank, kicked as they believed that it's unrealistic to a female character to be a tank (go figure). MM with first tier pets out, kicked. Blaster that have or uses any sort of knockback, kicked first offense. Controller that is not using holds often enough ot leader standards, kicked. Storm powers, automatically kicked before mission even begins. Tank that try to do damge, kicked (As one put it. "Tanks are not supposed to attack. They suppose to taunt and let the team kill. If they want to be damage they should of made a brute." (in fact heard quite a few people say that). Brute that out tank the tank, kicked. Brute that is not maintaining fury bar to standard of team leader, kicked. And so on, but those are the most commons ones I came across in COX through out the years.


One friend said that he dont play MMO for the people and dont give "a rat's 'pancake" about other people. If it was possibel to not see them at all, it would make his gaming experience even more enjoyable. But since the game is not available as single player mode only, other players are side a side effect." To him MMO merely means multiple people that just so happen to be able to play that same instance in a particular game. As he also put it, "just because it's multiplayer, it doesnt mean I'm your buddy now."
Which is easy to take if the enjoyment factor is not determined by other player's actions when good actions add enjoyment and bad players lessen the enjoyment. In those cases, I guess the best thing to do is hope to find a better group or if no enjoyment is being found in the search then is it worth playing? That's a decision only each individual player can make and determine for themselves.

Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2013, 06:54:46 PM »
It's sad you came across groups like that. I came across similar if not worse in COX so I feel your pain for real. In COX, came across teams and leaders that would kick people for all types of things. A defender that is not empath, kicked. Stalker, good luck getting an invite at all. kinetic controller without speed boost, kicked. Tank no taunt or refuse to herd, kicked. Scrapper acting like a tank, kicked. Dom without perma dom, kicked. Not IOed out, kicked. Blaster not spamming AOE, kicked. Costume not in the taste of the leader, kicked. No bio, kicked. Bio not up to standard to the leader, kicked. Female character not "hot enough", kicked. Female tank, kicked as they believed that it's unrealistic to a female character to be a tank (go figure). MM with first tier pets out, kicked. Blaster that have or uses any sort of knockback, kicked first offense. Controller that is not using holds often enough ot leader standards, kicked. Storm powers, automatically kicked before mission even begins. Tank that try to do damge, kicked (As one put it. "Tanks are not supposed to attack. They suppose to taunt and let the team kill. If they want to be damage they should of made a brute." (in fact heard quite a few people say that). Brute that out tank the tank, kicked. Brute that is not maintaining fury bar to standard of team leader, kicked. And so on, but those are the most commons ones I came across in COX through out the years.
I feel your pain.  My experience with the CoH community was far more pleasant, but admittedly, I had a lot fewer issues playing on my own in that game, and I only felt the need to team when I was either helping out newbies, or working with people I had good working relationships with to start.  In CO, I don't have that luxury.

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Which is easy to take if the enjoyment factor is not determined by other player's actions when good actions add enjoyment and bad players lessen the enjoyment. In those cases, I guess the best thing to do is hope to find a better group or if no enjoyment is being found in the search then is it worth playing? That's a decision only each individual player can make and determine for themselves.
The problem is, like a lot of MMO communities, CO is old, top-heavy, and stratified.  There's the freeforms on the top of the heap, with power layouts, specialization builds, and gear that make them like unto gods.  Everything's boring to them, and the only reason why they're still playing is for the rewards.  Their main interest is running everything as fast as possible and efficiently as possible, which means focusing their teams into narrower and narrower pigeonholes of super-effectiveness and kicking or abandoning anyone who doesn't fit their ideal team composition.

At the other end of the totem pole are newbie silver players, for whom everything is new and fresh and they want to experience as much as possible.  They don't yet realize how gimpy their silver AT characters are, and don't realize the prejudice they're under for not being some godly freeform.  They're new and unsteady and don't quite grasp the mechanics of the game or the strategies needed to play it, and invariably won't use what power they have to the fullest.

Then there's people like me, who are in the middle.  Still stuck on a Silver account, but we know the game well enough to debate mechanics with seasoned veterans and hold our own.  We've seen the content and played through it, probably numerous times, and started to develop that jaded "ugh, I just want this to be over with so I can play with the rewards" attitude that the veterans have, yet there's still enough unfamiliar ground left in the game that we can be surprised, pleasantly and otherwise, if only we can get a team together to run it effectively.  This is hampered by the fact that the game's high-end content, by and large, was designed around freeforms, not around ATs.

You've also got to consider that the queued events throw players together with no regard for their skills, veterancy, AT/freeform status, or whatever.  And given that level scaling in CO is terrible (if you're low-level being scaled to a higher level, you're gimpy from lack of powers; if you're high-level being scaled to a lower level you're gimpy because the system is overzealous and makes you weaker than a character of the actual level you're scaled to), this means that any team automatically arranged by the game has a very high chance of failure, unless one member is just so stinkin' uber that they could solo the event themselves.  Then that person (more often than not), winds up pitching a fit at the rest of the team for having to 'carry' them, leading to more bad blood.

Since people who subscribe, and people who don't, are on such an uneven footing, it creates a stratified class system within the game's community, and with that comes resentment from the accompanying class-friction.  CoH didn't suffer that because, until you reached incarnate-level activities, a subscriber and a non-subscriber were pretty much precisely the same - and when you did reach incarnate-level activities, the non-subscribers pretty much vanished altogether.

On a personal level, I want to tank.  I can do a lot of other things, but tanking has always, always been my thing in superhero MMOs.  My first character I took beyond 20 in CoH was a tanker.  My first character beyond 20 in CoV?  A Brute (and this was before archetypes could exist on both sides of the hero/villain fence).  All of the characters I've ever remotely enjoyed in CO?  Tank ATs, or very durable melee DPSers (Devastator, Unleashed).  But I've come to realize that, in CO, I cannot tank without a freeform character.  I can try to tank.  I can play a character that's supposed to be a tank, but he cannot, in fact, tank.  All of the tanks in CO that can tank, are either freeforms, or gold ATs I have no access to.

The fact that I cannot play what's supposedly a tank, and enjoy it, due to the game's shitty monetization scheme, is demotivating.  While yeah, maybe it'd get better if I subscribed to unlock those features, it galls me to pay money into something that wasn't fun for me to begin with.  I'm not a wealthy person - I'm taking care of two elderly parents by myself, as well as trying to gain and hold on to a regular job.  What little free cash I spend has to be spent wisely, on something that will bring me lasting pleasure - I can't afford to fritter it away on a hunch.  Further, subscribing to the game will not improve the community.  At best, it would only elevate my status within it.  I'd still have to deal with all the elitist, hyper-specialized demanding jackasses out there.

And I'm just not sure that's worth it.

JaguarX

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2013, 10:00:14 PM »
The problem is, like a lot of MMO communities, CO is old, top-heavy, and stratified.  There's the freeforms on the top of the heap, with power layouts, specialization builds, and gear that make them like unto gods.  Everything's boring to them, and the only reason why they're still playing is for the rewards.  Their main interest is running everything as fast as possible and efficiently as possible, which means focusing their teams into narrower and narrower pigeonholes of super-effectiveness and kicking or abandoning anyone who doesn't fit their ideal team composition.

At the other end of the totem pole are newbie silver players, for whom everything is new and fresh and they want to experience as much as possible.  They don't yet realize how gimpy their silver AT characters are, and don't realize the prejudice they're under for not being some godly freeform.  They're new and unsteady and don't quite grasp the mechanics of the game or the strategies needed to play it, and invariably won't use what power they have to the fullest.

Then there's people like me, who are in the middle.  Still stuck on a Silver account, but we know the game well enough to debate mechanics with seasoned veterans and hold our own.  We've seen the content and played through it, probably numerous times, and started to develop that jaded "ugh, I just want this to be over with so I can play with the rewards" attitude that the veterans have, yet there's still enough unfamiliar ground left in the game that we can be surprised, pleasantly and otherwise, if only we can get a team together to run it effectively.  This is hampered by the fact that the game's high-end content, by and large, was designed around freeforms, not around ATs.

You've also got to consider that the queued events throw players together with no regard for their skills, veterancy, AT/freeform status, or whatever.  And given that level scaling in CO is terrible (if you're low-level being scaled to a higher level, you're gimpy from lack of powers; if you're high-level being scaled to a lower level you're gimpy because the system is overzealous and makes you weaker than a character of the actual level you're scaled to), this means that any team automatically arranged by the game has a very high chance of failure, unless one member is just so stinkin' uber that they could solo the event themselves.  Then that person (more often than not), winds up pitching a fit at the rest of the team for having to 'carry' them, leading to more bad blood.

Since people who subscribe, and people who don't, are on such an uneven footing, it creates a stratified class system within the game's community, and with that comes resentment from the accompanying class-friction.  CoH didn't suffer that because, until you reached incarnate-level activities, a subscriber and a non-subscriber were pretty much precisely the same - and when you did reach incarnate-level activities, the non-subscribers pretty much vanished altogether.

On a personal level, I want to tank.  I can do a lot of other things, but tanking has always, always been my thing in superhero MMOs.  My first character I took beyond 20 in CoH was a tanker.  My first character beyond 20 in CoV?  A Brute (and this was before archetypes could exist on both sides of the hero/villain fence).  All of the characters I've ever remotely enjoyed in CO?  Tank ATs, or very durable melee DPSers (Devastator, Unleashed).  But I've come to realize that, in CO, I cannot tank without a freeform character.  I can try to tank.  I can play a character that's supposed to be a tank, but he cannot, in fact, tank.  All of the tanks in CO that can tank, are either freeforms, or gold ATs I have no access to.

The fact that I cannot play what's supposedly a tank, and enjoy it, due to the game's pancakey monetization scheme, is demotivating.  While yeah, maybe it'd get better if I subscribed to unlock those features, it galls me to pay money into something that wasn't fun for me to begin with.  I'm not a wealthy person - I'm taking care of two elderly parents by myself, as well as trying to gain and hold on to a regular job.  What little free cash I spend has to be spent wisely, on something that will bring me lasting pleasure - I can't afford to fritter it away on a hunch.  Further, subscribing to the game will not improve the community.  At best, it would only elevate my status within it.  I'd still have to deal with all the elitist, hyper-specialized demanding jackasses out there.

And I'm just not sure that's worth it.

yup.


Well they tried an attempt to fix that level scaling thing and they said more it to come later but thus far, I dont see much difference, besides many level 40s upset thinking thye got nerfed and upset that the lower level got buffed (which ironically was the common complaint to begin with- Low levels not able to do enough damage in alerts. LOL. LMAO! now they are pissed that low levels got buffed up so they deal more damage.

I'm a tank/melee type of guy by nature myself so I definately get where you are coming from.

Although no game mechanic in the world is going to change player's attitude. It was even present between incarnates and non-incarnates (especially the ones that still ran TF/SF/Trials. And present between those that been blessed with purple drops and had oodles of cash to make their build uber and those that didnt. A lot of teams stopped taking Doms, for example, that didnt have perma dom ability from purple IOs or didnt show it during the missions.

From the looks of it, the risk isnt worth it for you yet although it seems if you had the spare means you would do it.

Angel Phoenix77

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2013, 09:19:24 AM »
I think truth be told, cryptic/pwe doesn't want champions to succeed. they largely ignored this game for 2 years. in that 2 years all we got were lock boxes false hope in believing this game would ever be getting the foundry. they are not even deving in California anymore they move the development to Seattle. the old city of devs which could have helped make champions so much better, were placed on sto and neverwinter. sorry if I sound bitter.
I have left playing this game 3 months ago, why you might ask because the only think champions is going to be getting are lame temp story arcs.
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2013, 09:58:32 AM »
I think truth be told, cryptic/pwe doesn't want champions to succeed.
This, often, is how I feel about CO.  It's very clear that PWE acquired Cryptic for STO, and just got CO in the bargain.  They don't know what the heck to do with it, and I'd almost think they'd pawn it off on the first rube to flash a sufficient amount of cash at them for it.  Don't quote me on that last one though.

In the time it took them to release FATAL ERROR, Star Trek Online has gotten an entirely new faction, the KDF has been expanded to actually have something approaching a story progression, Duty Officers have been implemented and expanded upon, and they implemented fleet marks and fleet refit starships.  It's very, very apparent where their development bias and interests lay.

JaguarX

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2013, 01:15:37 PM »
This, often, is how I feel about CO.  It's very clear that PWE acquired Cryptic for STO, and just got CO in the bargain.  They don't know what the heck to do with it, and I'd almost think they'd pawn it off on the first rube to flash a sufficient amount of cash at them for it.  Don't quote me on that last one though.

In the time it took them to release FATAL ERROR, Star Trek Online has gotten an entirely new faction, the KDF has been expanded to actually have something approaching a story progression, Duty Officers have been implemented and expanded upon, and they implemented fleet marks and fleet refit starships.  It's very, very apparent where their development bias and interests lay.

yeah.

Seems like the market as a whole have no idea what to d wit ha super hero mmo. They either get one  as "Meh, lets put the new guys to the industry on it and see what happens for a bit. We'll give them $300 to work with. The $3 million is needed for the fantasy game."  Or "Well, was aiming for that other game, but this hero game is tagged along. Put it out back and let people play it."

It seems the industry is ingrained to think an MMO must only be fantasy or if it's another genre it must be established brand. No game is to be made without an established crowd unless it's fantasy, then they like to make stuff up and put forward best effort. Hero game, forget about it. Shoestring, and then say it wasn't successful and wont put anymore resources into it.

Thunder Glove

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2013, 02:04:23 PM »
I know why I'm giving it another chance - it's the only game in town that even comes close to giving me the feel of CoH.

I don't know how long I'll stay this time (or even if I'll bother to subscribe), but the main reason it frustrates me is not because the game is bad, but because it could be so much better, but nobody cares.

Atlantea

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2013, 04:26:29 PM »
I know why I'm giving it another chance - it's the only game in town that even comes close to giving me the feel of CoH.

I don't know how long I'll stay this time (or even if I'll bother to subscribe), but the main reason it frustrates me is not because the game is bad, but because it could be so much better, but nobody cares.

Well WE care.

But yeah - Cryptic/PWE? Not so much.


Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2013, 04:39:30 PM »
I know why I'm giving it another chance - it's the only game in town that even comes close to giving me the feel of CoH.

I don't know how long I'll stay this time (or even if I'll bother to subscribe), but the main reason it frustrates me is not because the game is bad, but because it could be so much better, but nobody cares.
This.  Just... so much this.

There's the potential for a great game there, but it's stifled so much by shifty monetization schemes and an utter lack of development and support that it just chokes this shy of amazing.  I often play the game and think, "Man, if I'd played this back when it was new, when it was subscription-only, archetypes didn't exist, and they didn't gut the crafting system, CoH might have had competition for my favorite game ever."

But then PWE took it, made the archetypes and locked away half of them, locked away the freeforms that the game was designed around, filled it with lockboxes, gutted the crafting system, moved crafted stuff into their lockbox scheme, and then... forgot about it.

I see what could have been and compare it to what is and just... sigh.