Author Topic: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance  (Read 15234 times)

Eoraptor

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 614
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2013, 06:22:47 PM »
I see what could have been and compare it to what is and just... sigh.
This right here is what keeps me from enjoying this game on more than a very at-ams-length level. I look at the existing mechanics, then I look at a few possible changes that could be made to infinitely improve the game's mechanics, and I shake my head and lose any investment in it.

The costume creator is far superior mechanically to most other MMO makers (including CoX)... but it's a chaotic mess which is unintuitive and overly-complicated in places. (I played for three weeks before I realized you could click the bar at the top to change the class of part for instance)
The bass ackwards currency system? You have resources points, then you have recognition points, then you have Questionite Ore, then you have Zen; and I'm sure there's at least one more form of commerce hidden inside the game somewhere.
and all the "gimmemoney" pandering between lock-boxes that fill up my inventory slots, and vehicles you are forced to learn about twice in game which are also pay exclusive (and their parts, which fill my inventory even faster)? There's a difference between profit seeking, and browbeating. You want people to play this game, to buy this game... but then you offer only the most linear and locked-down aspects of it for them to sample. an archetype can be capably maneuvered through most of the game, but it lacks any individuality beyond its costume.
And the writing? the cut scenes and snippets are there... the material is there to form a strong narrative that connects you to the story. and then they tell you the local witch is named "witchcraft" and send you to fight three different but mundane street gangs instead of saving the city from magical or monstrous threats like a superhero is supposed to and it's like....

I just look at this game and ask myself "look at what could be done with what is already here, and yet so much of it molders on the vine."
"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story, while others can read the back of a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe!"
-Lex Luthor

GamingGlen

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 223
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2013, 07:15:52 PM »
This right here is what keeps me from enjoying this game on more than a very at-ams-length level. I look at the existing mechanics, then I look at a few possible changes that could be made to infinitely improve the game's mechanics, and I shake my head and lose any investment in it.

Not to defend CO as much, but, how easily people forget...

Quote
The costume creator is far superior mechanically to most other MMO makers (including CoX)... but it's a chaotic mess which is unintuitive and overly-complicated in places. (I played for three weeks before I realized you could click the bar at the top to change the class of part for instance)

It's a matter of getting used to it.  COX's CC was not that intuitive, either.  Using ICON reminds that I cannot still find things that easily, mostly because I rarely used some pieces.  Take for instance the Head Options "Detail 1" and "Detail 2"... not exactly intuitive, are they?

Quote
The bass ackwards currency system? You have resources points, then you have recognition points, then you have Questionite Ore, then you have Zen; and I'm sure there's at least one more form of commerce hidden inside the game somewhere.

Like COX didn't have a lot of currencies at the end?

Quote
and all the "gimmemoney" pandering between lock-boxes that fill up my inventory slots, and vehicles you are forced to learn about twice in game which are also pay exclusive (and their parts, which fill my inventory even faster)?

You people make a bigger issue of this than it is.  A slot can hold 999 lock boxes so they do not really fill up your inventory.  You can also drag the entire slot to a space on the screen to discard the contents.  Pretty easy to do.

Re: vehicles. You only have to view the videos once.  I sell all the pieces to the vendor along with the other junk. 

Quote
There's a difference between profit seeking, and browbeating. You want people to play this game, to buy this game... but then you offer only the most linear and locked-down aspects of it for them to sample. an archetype can be capably maneuvered through most of the game, but it lacks any individuality beyond its costume.

You are playing for free.  Did you subscribe to CoX?  Why not subscribe to CO to open up that "individuality" you seek?  It costs the same, right?  The same cost as 10 years ago so inflation has not hit the sub prices.

Quote
And the writing? the cut scenes and snippets are there... the material is there to form a strong narrative that connects you to the story. and then they tell you the local witch is named "witchcraft" and send you to fight three different but mundane street gangs instead of saving the city from magical or monstrous threats like a superhero is supposed to and it's like....

Again with the rose-colored memories: you fought regular street gangs in CoX as well.  Remember the Skuls, the Hellions, the Warriors?  One thing I dislike about the CO gangs, though, is that they are ALL comical in some way.  It's hard to take them seriously as a threat.

Isn't one of the big threats in the Winter zone some magical monstrous entity? 

BTW, Witchcraft is not some local hero.

Sophronisba

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2013, 07:21:40 PM »
Quote
One thing I dislike about the CO gangs, though, is that they are ALL comical in some way.  It's hard to take them seriously as a threat.

This is the number one reason I don't enjoy CO as much as I enjoyed CoH. It's the art style and the tone. They just don't work for me at all. (Well, that and the lack of content.)

I also just don't like the idea of gear in a superhero game. I vastly preferred enhancements to the helmets and bracers.

The lockboxes don't bug me as much as they used to. My issue wasn't so much the inventory space as the way they used to drop constantly. Adjusting the drop rate down has really helped.

Thunder Glove

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 971
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2013, 07:25:15 PM »
Well, CoH was heading towards its own ridiculous numbers of currency types, with Influence/Infamy/Information, Prestige, AE Tickets, Reward Merits, Vanguard Merits, Alignment Merits (split into Hero and Villain), Astral Merits, and Empyrean Merits.  If you're counting Zen for CO, then Paragon Points should also be counted for CoH.  You could probably also count Paragon Reward Tokens.

In fact, most MMOs seem to drift to that sort of system.  As too many players get huge amounts of the game's basic currency, they start putting more and more of the things that are supposed to be rewards behind other forms of currency.  And then as people amass that currency, they create yet another currency to gate rewards behind, and so on.  For example:

Dofus has kamas (the basic currency), Ogrines (the equivalent of Paragon Points/Zen), Kolossokens, Doploons, Almokens, Ice Kamas, Krokens, and Chocolate Kamas (Bronze, Silver, and Gold), plus the deprecated currency Strokens, and the only-given-out-when-there's-a-problem Compensokens.

Kingdom of Loathing (a text-based "Massively Single-Player" game, as its dev team calls it) has Meat (the basic currency), Fat Loot Tokens, Filthy Lucre, Quarters, Dimes, Swagger, Credits, Game Grid Tickets, Lunar Isotopes, Hobo Nickels, and Freddy Kreugerands as permanent forms of currency, and short-duration events generally have their own currencies, including Bone Chips, Crimbux, CrimbCo Scrip, and FDKOL Commendations.

So, really, CO having many different kinds of currency is not a turn-off.  It's expected.

Night-Hawk07

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 317
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2013, 10:25:13 PM »
This is the number one reason I don't enjoy CO as much as I enjoyed CoH. It's the art style and the tone. They just don't work for me at all. (Well, that and the lack of content.)

I also just don't like the idea of gear in a superhero game. I vastly preferred enhancements to the helmets and bracers.

Same. I've always said that about CO; with CoX I felt like a superhero, with CO I feel like a parody of a hero (and just to be fair, in DC I feel like the practice squad). I could write a novel about the details, but I mentioned in another thread that when it comes to CO right now I "can't be arsed", this is why. I want to be a superhero not a superjoke. I want to care about MC and fighting the bad guys that threaten it, but I just haven't really been able to and I think a lot of that is cause I just can't take the environment seriously.

And I'd also agree that enhancements >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gear (that goes for other MMOs as well).

Why do I keep giving Champions Online a chance? Cause it's all we've got right now, and if things continue the way they've been for the past couple years, I fear it won't be long before DCUO is "all we have left."

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2013, 10:33:19 PM »
besides the name difference (enhancement-gear) it was basically the same.

IIRC some of the "enhancements"  had the names like necklace, bracers, and gloves.

It basically does the same thing-increase stats and in both cases, neither one affect the look of the character in COX or CO.


You know if they copied COX enhancement system verbatim or close and I doubt their arguement that they didnt know would work in their case, it probably would have been a violation of some sort since they sold the IP/artwork/trademark rights to NCSOFT when they left to make the CO game. So they probably purposely tried to make it different in name and use. But overall, it does the and serve the same function.


SARobb

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 109
  • Rawr.
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2013, 11:12:34 PM »
Exactly, the 'gear' doesn't effect the way you look unless you get one of those cheesy set 'transform' powers from the Q gear.  Outside of that, it effects your stats, that's about it.

And by Stats - just to clarify - I mean base stats and offense, defense, crit rating, ect. Essentially any 'number' on the Character sheet. 
Stand up for what you beleive in - even if you are standing alone

Sophronisba

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2013, 11:27:04 PM »
Quote
Exactly, the 'gear' doesn't effect the way you look unless you get one of those cheesy set 'transform' powers from the Q gear.  Outside of that, it effects your stats, that's about it.

And by Stats - just to clarify - I mean base stats and offense, defense, crit rating, ect. Essentially any 'number' on the Character sheet.

No, I understand all of this. I guess the reason I liked the enhancements better was because it was very clear exactly how they were going to affect my powers. Whereas that is not always clear to me with the Champions gear.

Now, why this bugs me in Champions and doesn't bother me in Neverwinter I cannot explain, except that Champions is a superhero game and that's not how I want my superhero games to work. It's entirely capricious, I suppose.

Eoraptor

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 614
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2013, 11:29:43 PM »
the difference being that in COH, enhancements were generally specific to an individual power. therefore you could pick and choose what to buff and what not to. (with the exception of the intrinsic fitness pool)  in CO it's specific to character, and the adjustments it provides scale across the toon. So there is a difference in the way it works.

but I wholeheartedly agree on failing to connect with the game.  in City of Heroes your initial foes after the tut are a street gang that digs up graves as initiation, elementally empowered thugs who failed at being superheroes and so went bad (also they worship demons "GF from hell FTW"), and depending on where you went in atlas park, psychically controlled robots, reanimated corpses of socialites, or insane cultists. you feel like you're facing down supra-normal threats to the city. stuff you' find in the pages of a comic book about superheroes.

In CO... oh go fight the italian mob.... go fight the chinese mafia and do west side story (literally)... go fight those wierd clown-themed thugs we picked up from batman who are also some kind of mafia... go fight the biker gang...  I didn't feel like anything more than a glorified cop until they sent me to canada to save plane crash victims from zombies. and as soon as I finished that, it's "fight the canadian arms smugglers" right back to cop stuff.
"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story, while others can read the back of a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe!"
-Lex Luthor

Thunder Glove

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 971
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2013, 11:37:10 PM »
besides the name difference (enhancement-gear) it was basically the same.

IIRC some of the "enhancements"  had the names like necklace, bracers, and gloves.

It basically does the same thing-increase stats and in both cases, neither one affect the look of the character in COX or CO.

It's not really the same thing at all.  Enhancements let you boost a specific power in exactly the way you wanted.  You could make it hit more often, do more damage, hold longer, recharge faster, cost less Endurance, etc.  With 91 Enhancement slots at level 50 (including the one default slot for each power), each individual power was customizable in a myriad of ways.

Gear is just a general-purpose boost to your stats, not something you apply to individual powers.  With only six total gear slots, they don't have anywhere near the nuance or specificity of Enhancements.  Plus, unlike Enhancements, the basic versions of which were sold at NPC vendors around the game world, gear is more or less acquired at random, so there's no guarantee you'll be able to boost the stats you want when you want it.

They're both similar in that they "make you more powerful", but that's where the similarity ends. I much prefer CoH's Enhancements over any sort of gear system.

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2013, 12:01:04 AM »
If it wasn't for the roleplayers in CO, i'd have left again already.  But even then, I will say this; they are not much more loyal to CO then I am.  If something better came along, they'd jump ship.  Some of them never played CoX, so if it came back I bet you I'd have no trouble convincing them to try it out.  One person even stated to me that the only die-hard CO fan is unfortunately a complete moron, and from conversations I'd had in CO about difficulty, for example, being to easy, they justify it, then they justify rediculously broken and overpowered devices that are still to powerful today, they then ask for nerfs for powers that are actually quite balanced, due to factors they utterly overlook.  Roleplayers in CO are the only people keeping me playing CO anymore.  And the new dev department isn't going to introduce the foundary untill next year IF THEY DECIDE TO DO SO AT ALL.  And my roleplaying has suffered without a mission editor, and my general mood has also hurt my own roleplaying to.  CO's just falling appart for me yet I still hope maybe it'll get better soon, but i'd really like CoX back soon.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

LaughingAlex

  • Giggling like an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,019
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2013, 12:12:42 AM »
What you speak is true form what I seen.


Although I find great irony in that. Players say that the game is too solo friendly and not team friendly at all because there is no mechanism making or forcing them to need support toons, yet ATs have that mechanism where they need support to survive the tough stuff but now it's considered gimped and not wanted on teams, because they lack the mechanism that supposedly creating an air of anti-teaming of toons being too self sufficient. lol. Now I know why most game makers dont even bother with customizations. It's a lot of headache and there seem to be no clear way to please everyone or even mostly everyone. It's easier to stick with pre set builds where everyone is the same and up to them to find and fight for gear that distinguish between the player.

Your right in that case, but the team mechanics sucking isn't cause freeforms can be self sufficient, it's more that the game outright punishes you for teaming.  If your teaming in many maps, unfortunately the mobs don't quite scale up in alot of them, so the game becomes even easier, yeah, but you also end up with LESS experience for it.  In general, mobs in CO actually give very, very low amounts of experience and resources, compared to CoX, which gave tons of experience and influence if you cleared the map(more then the mission reward).  In fact, i'd say mob kills account for only, even not doing alerts, about a tenth of the exp you get in total, even clearing everything in your path.  So the problem is theres just a lack of incentive.  The self-sufficient mechanics actually help teaming in CO in that you don't have to have a healer or a tank or damage dealer, if everyones a freeform, but archtypes are ultimately a step backwards in general, with the holy trinity forced down their throats.  Heck, CoX's corruptors/defenders could all form teams without anything else, so could tankers and any archtype really and do well as long as they players had skill, Archtypes in CO just, sadly, suck.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Illusionss

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2013, 12:41:06 AM »
... I enjoy getting multiple duel invites as I am standing there talking to Kodiak at about level 9. I'm new, I have hardly a single clue what I am doing yet everyone wants to fight! I truly enjoy clicking "decline."

The costume creator is tricky until you get it figured out a bit. It has elements I really like, yet all members of each sex wearing the same face really irks me. Its a small thing..... yet I am irked.

Glowy parts for the win.

HOWEVER..... once bitten twice shy, I still don't trust PW to not close the game on me should I come to like it more later. This is very much keeping me from fully investing. This also strikes me as a single-player game that you just happen to see other people running around in. You wont be teaming with them. Ever.

Brou

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 266
  • Inspector of Tasties
    • Blog
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2013, 02:02:04 AM »
... I enjoy getting multiple duel invites as I am standing there talking to Kodiak at about level 9. I'm new, I have hardly a single clue what I am doing yet everyone wants to fight! I truly enjoy clicking "decline." A remedy has already been presented.

The costume creator is tricky until you get it figured out a bit. It has elements I really like, yet all members of each sex wearing the same face really irks me. Its a small thing..... yet I am irked.
Have you checked the details you can add, such as middle age and geometric? The faces are not alike if you manipulate sliders and use the detail textures.
Glowy parts for the win.

HOWEVER..... once bitten twice shy, I still don't trust PW to not close the game on me should I come to like it more later. This is very much keeping me from fully investing. This also strikes me as a single-player game that you just happen to see other people running around in. You wont be teaming with them. Ever.

If that's how you see the players, then you will get exactly what you put in. When I was in Peregrine Island in CoH, I did the Maria Jenkins arc solo. Never once did I conclude that everyone outside Portal Corp would never team with me. I knew that if I felt like teaming, I could reach out to someone or they could do the same to me. It is no different here.
Spess

Illusionss

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2013, 03:38:08 PM »
The problem is, given what I see in Zone chat I am not really sure how well "reaching out" would do over there. Thee seems to be heavy disdain for those who are not experienced players.

I am not worried about teaming at the moment so much, as I would be a liability to a team right now. But this environment over all IS NOT WELCOMING. It just isn't, especially when contrasted with that of CoX.

General Idiot

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2013, 04:59:10 PM »
It seems the industry is ingrained to think an MMO must only be fantasy or if it's another genre it must be established brand.

And what's bad is Champions IS an established brand. Not as big as Star Trek, sure, but the Champions tabletop game existed long before the MMO did. As I recall, Cryptic even outright bought the rights to it and all. Not just licensed them, bought them entirely. And then licensed them back to the company that makes the tabletop game. Don't quote me on that though, not entirely sure it's true. Something I remember hearing back around the time Champions was announced.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2013, 06:13:46 PM »
Your right in that case, but the team mechanics sucking isn't cause freeforms can be self sufficient, it's more that the game outright punishes you for teaming.  If your teaming in many maps, unfortunately the mobs don't quite scale up in alot of them, so the game becomes even easier, yeah, but you also end up with LESS experience for it.  In general, mobs in CO actually give very, very low amounts of experience and resources, compared to CoX, which gave tons of experience and influence if you cleared the map(more then the mission reward).  In fact, i'd say mob kills account for only, even not doing alerts, about a tenth of the exp you get in total, even clearing everything in your path.  So the problem is theres just a lack of incentive.  The self-sufficient mechanics actually help teaming in CO in that you don't have to have a healer or a tank or damage dealer, if everyones a freeform, but archtypes are ultimately a step backwards in general, with the holy trinity forced down their throats.  Heck, CoX's corruptors/defenders could all form teams without anything else, so could tankers and any archtype really and do well as long as they players had skill, Archtypes in CO just, sadly, suck.

Yeah I do think exp for mobs in COX was in relative terms higher than what CO rewards. But in COX I found it increasingly rare as time went on that teams actually bothered to kill many mobs thinking that they wasnt worth the xp and thus mostly just speed run things by running to the last room and click glowy and maybe killing the mobs only in that room thus rendering the exp gained from killing mobs or clearing moot. live mobs do not reward xp nor do clicking the glowy in two minutes flat offer a time reward but alas, too many teams avoided killing things like the plague.

Incentive wise for teaming is next to nill in CO. Which sucks for people that only team for incentives. In COX I think teaming was too incentivlized. It like it frowned upon soloing as much as CO seem to forget about rewarding teaming. I think an incentive between the two levels of none (CO) to too much (COX) would have been great.

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2013, 06:15:15 PM »
If that's how you see the players, then you will get exactly what you put in. When I was in Peregrine Island in CoH, I did the Maria Jenkins arc solo. Never once did I conclude that everyone outside Portal Corp would never team with me. I knew that if I felt like teaming, I could reach out to someone or they could do the same to me. It is no different here.
yup.

Illusionss

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: I wonder why I keep giving Champions a chance
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2013, 08:44:39 PM »
...Wait, The Thing is in CO?!! This is pretty cool, why wasn't it in CoX?!! *burns it with fire*