Author Topic: I can, in fact, do this some more.  (Read 37225 times)

TonyV

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #80 on: September 22, 2013, 12:27:39 AM »
If this is the case, Tony et al: is there anything we can do to help right now without having to spill the beans?

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Captain Electric

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #81 on: September 22, 2013, 04:55:41 AM »
I want a game where we can stand proudly in the sun and be written about on MMO sites, not in some dark alley where you need the secret phrase to get by the bouncer at the door.  Is that too much to ask?

You're probably asking the wrong guy. I've been pretty open about the fact that I've supported resurrected games in the past. Almost all of those projects exist proudly in the Sun now. One of them is in the clear because the result of bankruptcy and messy liquidation of its publisher left it without ownership (not the kind of luck you should count on). The others crawled underground like worms and built themselves up in the dark until we were all more sure about EA. But there was no shame in what we did. All of those games enjoy expansive, vibrant communities because people were willing to do what needed to be done. If you ever wonder why UO had thousands of well-populated servers at one time (and several dozen high pop shards to this day), it was because dissemination, decentralization and quick expansion was part of the plan from the beginning for the first emulation teams. One of the best defenses is to make the lawyers give up before they start. And it was a good deal for UO players. After the Renaissance and Age of Shadows expansions, those shards became the only way players could play classic era UO (and many other variants), which many considered to be a different game altogether, including many devs. Which is why EA attempted to hire the producer of a classic era emulation shard.

If there is a team working on COH, and the rumors are pretty overt that there is, I have an idea what they're up against, just based on my own past experiences. Probably a good few years just to untangle the code and have something that even resembles Live. But I do think there could be something in a year that resembles, say, a networked Icon; a place where we could all dress up, fly around together or just hang out in the Ski Chalet or something. We can call it peacetime. :P

Whatever it turns out to be, god speed to them. It's worth noting, every reverse-engineered game I've personally seen has been optimized and improved for bug fixes, performance, and quality of life. It always leaves me reeling at just how much shareholders stand in the way of these games, considering the amount of work it takes to improve the long term really requires sacrifices in the short (i.e. quarterly) term. Not an obstacle for player-run servers. Like I said, I respect your principles FatherXmas, but seriously? A secret handshake would be a small price IMO.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 05:06:18 AM by Captain Electric »

Triplash

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #82 on: September 22, 2013, 09:45:40 PM »
But I do think there could be something in a year that resembles, say, a networked Icon; a place where we could all dress up, fly around together or just hang out in the Ski Chalet or something. We can call it peacetime. :P

You know what? That sounds like a pretty decent way to pass some time while we're waiting for the bigger results. While I tended more towards soloing for the combat stuff, I always enjoyed hanging out with folks and just having fun. Chatting, goofing off with emotes, and costume contests were some of the best times I had in the City. Combine that with load_map and spawn_npc, you could have a few good laughs I'm sure.

I'm sold! I think it would be awesome to see that happen. Coolest chat program ever.

JanessaVR

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #83 on: September 22, 2013, 10:28:52 PM »
I argued for just that a month or two ago on the Icon thread - if we can meet online, fly around, and chat - then City is back; the rest is just adding abilities and functions.

HEATSTROKE

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #84 on: September 22, 2013, 11:55:40 PM »
 I just want to play again  :(

Phaetan

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #85 on: September 23, 2013, 12:16:52 AM »
We all do, Heatstroke.
I'm sure that SCoRE are working as fast as they can, though...

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #86 on: September 23, 2013, 05:47:59 AM »
You're probably asking the wrong guy. I've been pretty open about the fact that I've supported resurrected games in the past. Almost all of those projects exist proudly in the Sun now. One of them is in the clear because the result of bankruptcy and messy liquidation of its publisher left it without ownership (not the kind of luck you should count on). The others crawled underground like worms and built themselves up in the dark until we were all more sure about EA. But there was no shame in what we did. All of those games enjoy expansive, vibrant communities because people were willing to do what needed to be done. If you ever wonder why UO had thousands of well-populated servers at one time (and several dop before they start. And it was a good deal for UO players. After the Renaissance and Age of Shadows expansions, th

If there is a team working on COH, and the rumors are pretty overt that there is, I have an idea what they're up against, just based on my own past experiences. Probably a good few years just to untangle the code and have something that even resembles Live.

A few good years? Why did you have to type that? I was depressed enough at this point :( *heart explodes*

Captain Electric

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2013, 06:03:56 AM »
What I didn't do above is weigh that against my belief that, within the COH/Titan communities, the amount of creative talent and programming skills collectively dwarfs anything I've ever seen since the very first MMORPG was reverse-engineered almost 16 years ago.

There. Feel better now? :)

« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 06:13:07 AM by Captain Electric »

JaguarX

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2013, 06:43:23 AM »
You're probably asking the wrong guy. I've been pretty open about the fact that I've supported resurrected games in the past. Almost all of those projects exist proudly in the Sun now. One of them is in the clear because the result of bankruptcy and messy liquidation of its publisher left it without ownership (not the kind of luck you should count on). The others crawled underground like worms and built themselves up in the dark until we were all more sure about EA. But there was no shame in what we did. All of those games enjoy expansive, vibrant communities because people were willing to do what needed to be done. If you ever wonder why UO had thousands of well-populated servers at one time (and several dozen high pop shards to this day), it was because dissemination, decentralization and quick expansion was part of the plan from the beginning for the first emulation teams. One of the best defenses is to make the lawyers give up before they start. And it was a good deal for UO players. After the Renaissance and Age of Shadows expansions, those shards became the only way players could play classic era UO (and many other variants), which many considered to be a different game altogether, including many devs. Which is why EA attempted to hire the producer of a classic era emulation shard.

If there is a team working on COH, and the rumors are pretty overt that there is, I have an idea what they're up against, just based on my own past experiences. Probably a good few years just to untangle the code and have something that even resembles Live. But I do think there could be something in a year that resembles, say, a networked Icon; a place where we could all dress up, fly around together or just hang out in the Ski Chalet or something. We can call it peacetime. :P

Whatever it turns out to be, god speed to them. It's worth noting, every reverse-engineered game I've personally seen has been optimized and improved for bug fixes, performance, and quality of life. It always leaves me reeling at just how much shareholders stand in the way of these games, considering the amount of work it takes to improve the long term really requires sacrifices in the short (i.e. quarterly) term. Not an obstacle for player-run servers. Like I said, I respect your principles FatherXmas, but seriously? A secret handshake would be a small price IMO.

But isn't UO still running to this day and the emulation project started when UO game proper was still in beta in 1997 time period and distributed before the DMCA?

Like some game companies don't seem to mind Emulator private servers or what ever name is assigned, while others seem to dispise them and go after them often like Disney.
and on a side note there have been cases where the company win Blizzard in 2011 was awarded 83 million against Scapegaming. So it's possible that company take action and win and not automatically mean they will lose and it's not worth it. The first rule of war is to never underestimate the enemy. Or is that the second? Well it's one of the important rules. Because the ones that end up in mess are the ones that think they are untouchable, cocky, and think the other side wont do anything. Stay low, keep it quiet, be vigilant, stay on the A game, be vigilant (yeah said it twice as it seems some are approaching this as "Oh they cant do nothing. They wont win" and that is usually when it gets sloppy and get sued and shutdown) and it should be ok.

Captain Electric

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2013, 07:11:48 AM »
That code and all of its branches are long extinct. Closest thing to it is the UOX3 project, but that is more like a distant cousin. (I actually have a family tree around here somewere lol.) Working on your own shard is a fun way to learn JavaScript, btw. :P Projects like Sphere, UOX3, and most notably RunUO (for having a larger population and better code from the ground up than official UO) are getting the full-on turn-the-other-cheek treatment. But that server code is, from the ground up, written from scratch. And there are some other things too, not worth going into here, point being--EA has communicated with the producer of RunUO, and that guy knows what he can and can't do. (Ever wonder why they don't have the Stygian Abyss client?) EA has a horrible evil reputation but at least they live and let live if it's of no consequence to them anyway. COH's fans should be so lucky.

Jaguar, I don't have to tell you that you get a little TL;DR sometimes (I'm guilty as charged too), but that last paragraph you wrote is pure gold.

JaguarX

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #90 on: September 23, 2013, 07:49:33 AM »
That code and all of its branches are long extinct. Closest thing to it is the UOX3 project, but that is more like a distant cousin. (I actually have a family tree around here somewere lol.) Working on your own shard is a fun way to learn JavaScript, btw. :P Projects like Sphere, UOX3, and most notably RunUO (for having a larger population and better code from the ground up than official UO) are getting the full-on turn-the-other-cheek treatment. But that server code is, from the ground up, written from scratch. And there are some other things too, not worth going into here, point being--EA has communicated with the producer of RunUO, and that guy knows what he can and can't do. (Ever wonder why they don't have the Stygian Abyss client?) EA has a horrible evil reputation but at least they live and let live if it's of no consequence to them anyway. COH's fans should be so lucky.


Yup. Heard they did awesome job with that code, the private server builders to the point that even EA was impressed.

Yep I do get wordy. I realize when I keep it short, the nit pickers come out in force (oh what about this what about that, you missed that you missed that) and end up having to explain more in detail anyways, thus I get it out the way as much as possible the first time around. And also I make sure I usually state the main point a few times, one at the beginning, one in the middle, one near the end of the middle, and one at the end, and sometimes once more at the conclusion. That way it's there and if someone miss it, they have 3 or 5 shots to get it. Plus it make it easier to spot people who is merely trying to get a rise and avoid the main point. Because usually even after repeating it a few times they still completely ignore it and if they even read 10%-25% of what I said(say) they would have gotten the just of it. Yet somehow they miss it but curiously still reply as if they know what they are talking about. 

And a few times I simply have a lot to say about a subject.



There is always a method to the madness. 
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 07:57:13 AM by JaguarX »

Captain Electric

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #91 on: September 23, 2013, 08:21:28 AM »
Sorry bro tl;dr.

Captain Electric

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #92 on: September 23, 2013, 08:22:45 AM »
J/K  ;D

Twisted Toon

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #93 on: September 23, 2013, 04:36:17 PM »
J/K  ;D
Dude! TL/DR. Can you make it any shorter?  :P
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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #94 on: September 23, 2013, 05:11:57 PM »
Just something I was thinking about, and it may have been discussed at some point with all the other things we have talked about...

I'm all for a private server.  I don't see anything wrong with it, since it wouldn't be for making money, and the owner isn't doing anything with it.  Through all of this though, NCSoft are painted as the bad guys, and why shouldn't we screw over the bad guys?  Except... has anyone asked Posi, or the other devs how THEY feel about a group reverse engineering and putting out a private server of their work?  NCSoft may own the rights, but the Devs are the ones who put their lives into the game we love.  If Posi came out and said he REALLY doesn't want a reverse engineered private server, would that have any impact on those efforts?

Just one of those random thoughts I had. 

Captain Electric

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #95 on: September 23, 2013, 05:45:41 PM »
I've only seen this happen once publicly. Now-defunct Westwood Studio's old producer for Earth and Beyond spoke at length in a Massively interview a couple years back about the Earth and Beyond emulator. That means it took about seven years from the point of closure until making public comments. He talked about how great it was to play the game again and how impressed he was with the emulator's dev team--he called them professional and talented.

I know that some of UO's devs used to play on RunUO network's server named Hybrid and liked it a lot. That was less public.

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #96 on: September 23, 2013, 07:29:32 PM »
Just something I was thinking about, and it may have been discussed at some point with all the other things we have talked about...

I'm all for a private server.  I don't see anything wrong with it, since it wouldn't be for making money, and the owner isn't doing anything with it.  Through all of this though, NCSoft are painted as the bad guys, and why shouldn't we screw over the bad guys?  Except... has anyone asked Posi, or the other devs how THEY feel about a group reverse engineering and putting out a private server of their work?  NCSoft may own the rights, but the Devs are the ones who put their lives into the game we love.  If Posi came out and said he REALLY doesn't want a reverse engineered private server, would that have any impact on those efforts?

Just one of those random thoughts I had.
interesting.

Although usually the point is not to screw over the bad guys but to prevent them from doing crime or else it's just a bad guy screwing over a bad guy which in the end still makes two bad guys.

If a person breaks into a house and steals, the first instinct might be to go to their house and steal their stuff. But what it boils down in law is it's merely two criminals stealing stuff. In the comic world, this can be praised as a heroic act. In the real world, both are the same type of criminal. The Mob (second version, the Black Hand (Mustache Petes) era of the Mob was a different story) genrally kept their activities shooting robbing extrotng each other. Yet, they still were considered criminals even though they probably was doing the world a favor by eliminating other criminals. St Val. day  massacre, only mobsters were murked, criminals, theives, murderers, yet Capone and his crew were nto considered heroes. They were considered the same type of criminals as the ones they mowed down in that warehouse even though he (his organization) was know to give to charities, ran soup kitchens, more soup kitchens than the government offered, and fed countless hungry people. Yet and still, he was considered a mobster criminal that was targeted by the DA. If an act si wrong, it's wrong even if done to bad guys. Not saying the server thing is as it seems a lot about HOW it's done. Going back to the house thief. Many times, a person dont report stuff that is stolen, does that mean it isnt stolen? And sometimes people report stuff stolen that wasnt stolen, does it mean the thief automatically took it because they are a criminal and someone want to screw them over? I dont think so in either case.

Although it's easier to get away with screwing over a bad guy than an upstanding citizen but it must be done in a realm where the bad guy is considered a bad guy. Even with the mob, pinch the wrong guy and you might get a free pair of cement shoes while they dont care about the pinching of another guy. In some organizations, as long as you didnt pinch a made guy without being made yourself, you was ok, but in other organizations pinch anyone without the say so, you're a bad guy, even if the person deserved it, end up at the bottom of a lake or worse.

But the mob got away with lot of stuff because they knew the system and knew their way around. If someone want to get away with this server thing, again depending on how they do it, then it's easy. Know what, and be honest, about what you can get away with. If there is uncertaintly, then more recon needs to be done

Copyright excemption-"This exemption encompasses instructional activities relating to a wide variety of subjects, but it does not include performances for recreation or entertainment purposes , even if there is cultural value or intellectual appeal."

And of course more stuff. Know the law find the loopholes. But cant find loopholes if one does not know the law.

Oh and do it fast as possible because tougher more in depth laws are coming down the pipe.

Illusionss

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #97 on: September 24, 2013, 01:03:58 AM »
A few good years? Why did you have to type that? I was depressed enough at this point :( *heart explodes*

"A few good years" certainly beats "NEVERMORE!," don't you think? I do. Something to hope for beats nothing to hope for.

Quote
Someone else: I'm all for a private server. I don't see anything wrong with it, since it wouldn't be for making money, and the owner isn't doing anything with it. Through all of this though, NCSoft are painted as the bad guys, and why shouldn't we screw over the bad guys?

NCSoft are not so much "bad" as they are "stupid" or perhaps best of all: "uncaring."

NCSoft has basically told us: "Your stupid game bores us because there are not enough fully-articulated mammary glands + prepubescent girls in it. Yes it makes us millions of dollars a year, but we spit on your millions of dollars. We don't get out of bed in the morning for less than a TRILLION dollars! Game over. Puns intended, hahaha."

I have a very hard time seeing them exercised enough about a private server to do anything, also knowing that being hardasses about this is going to make them look worse than they already do. And they did not exactly come out of this debacle looking good.... they actually damaged the entire MMO genre. Trust has been lost, people are looking over their shoulders. [Can you even imagine what will happen when WoW shuts down? Yikes]

Quote
Except... has anyone asked Posi, or the other devs how THEY feel about a group reverse engineering and putting out a private server of their work? NCSoft may own the rights, but the Devs are the ones who put their lives into the game we love. If Posi came out and said he REALLY doesn't want a reverse engineered private server, would that have any impact on those efforts?

Why would Positron or any of the other developers be loyal enough to an ex-employer who chewed them up and spat them out, to even care if this ends up hurting NCSoft somehow? If I were one of them I would be 1. honored that the game population was still in tears A YEAR LATER over the loss of a game that I helped to make. What a HUGE compliment to them that is, really! They made something that people love that much.

and 2. NCSoft has screwed me, the ex-developer over..... so, anything to come of this is pure revenge and mum would be the word in public..... but in my heart I would be all, GET THEM!!!!!!! YEAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH



[please excuse Jersey Shore reference.....]

TonyV

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #98 on: September 24, 2013, 01:28:00 AM »
Except... has anyone asked Posi, or the other devs how THEY feel about a group reverse engineering and putting out a private server of their work?  NCSoft may own the rights, but the Devs are the ones who put their lives into the game we love.  If Posi came out and said he REALLY doesn't want a reverse engineered private server, would that have any impact on those efforts?

Positron is actually our team lead.

...

I'm kidding, he's not associated with our efforts in any way, shape, form, or fashion.  I just like to imagine that a bunch of people swallowed their tongues when they read that.

I can't speak for the developers, but if I were one of them, it would piss me off far more having my hard work forever locked away than having some third-party group doing stuff with it where it could still be out there for people to see and enjoy.  We're not actively seeking out the help of the former developers, but we're also doing our damned best to treat their work with the respect it deserves.

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Re: I can, in fact, do this some more.
« Reply #99 on: September 24, 2013, 01:40:56 AM »

. Going back to the house thief. Many times, a person dont report stuff that is stolen, does that mean it isnt stolen? And sometimes people report stuff stolen that wasnt stolen, does it mean the thief automatically took it because they are a criminal and someone want to screw them over? I dont think so in either case...

...
But the mob got away with lot of stuff because they knew the system and knew their way around. If someone want to get away with this server thing, again depending on how they do it, then it's easy. Know what, and be honest, about what you can get away with. If there is uncertaintly, then more recon needs to be done

Copyright excemption-"This exemption encompasses instructional activities relating to a wide variety of subjects, but it does not include performances for recreation or entertainment purposes , even if there is cultural value or intellectual appeal."

And of course more stuff. Know the law find the loopholes. But cant find loopholes if one does not know the law.

Oh and do it fast as possible because tougher more in depth laws are coming down the pipe.

If you consider the moral rather than the legal issue, it should be pointed out that there is a REASON for intellectual property law.   Intellectual property uses the law of possessions to monetize something that is not traditional property for a purpose... to reward the creator of  intellectual work for the act of enriching civilization. 

I suggest that if you use IP law to PREVENT the dissemination of IP, you are completely reversing the purpose of the law.   Your MORAL right exists so long as you are making the IP publicly available (under whatever terms).  If someone is holding IP with no intention of using it further, then it has no MORAL basis to its ownership as it is rather PREVENTING the enrichment of civilization.

But this is moot, with the IP necessary for the game being in the freely distributed client (and as I understand it that was distributed with no express or implied agreement) -- then just as ICON uses that client, so could a server, and as long as that server did not use missions or stories from the original (beyond what is in the client), what rights to the game's IP could be violated?

If a Reverse Engineered game consisted of entirely new missions, AE built lore set up to be assigned by contacts rather than through AE, for example, how is it violating the game IP?
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